modest hints for supporting a d3/win site over text-only login, or on calls to their staff

[fwinans]

Please don't leave  ipv6 enabled in your winbox ethernet card properties, if you don't have plans to use it,
it seems to screw up windows print and file sharing in at least some cases I saw today.  Could not  net view
sambox  for example in a cmd.exe window;  got a gripe msg and Access Denied msg right after that.

Staff I talked to today on a win2012 server  site couldn't find the icon in start screen for d3 device manager, needed it to  enlarge the vme.  On win8 you had to a) hit windows key or b) hover mouse in top right or in bottom right corner of desktop, then click the Start  icon that then appeared midway down the right side of desktop.  That part went ok on this box but it is win2012 server, so unlike in win8 hovering the mouse near bottom of start screen did _not_ make a 'down arrow' icon appear, so you couldn't get to the rest of the icons in the 'start' tree of screens {I think right end of 2nd screen extends if you hover mouse there on win8 boxes.
Hmph.   Last ditch is to craft an icon that invokes the d3programs\d3devmgrmain.exe  directly, and open that icon.  Pwew!

When logged in to d3/win on a distant server, you should be able to verify some settings on windows side from tcl ":" prompt, like
  a) windows id on lan --     !hostname
  b) ip address of this d3 server, and the gateway address --  !sysconfig
  c) workgroup or domain name, which 'flavor' of windows {xp, win7, win8, server 2012, etc}, amt of ram,
         motherboard type {like "x64-based PC"}, booted up since when, number of processors, time zone,
         amt of virtual memory {"swap"} and how much is in use,  list all network card(s) by doing  !sysinfo
       {4 or 5 pages of output come back, may want to do  !sysinfo | findstr  /B  /C:Domain       for example
       to only show line(s)  with string "domain"     /B means text must start at left end of that line of data... 
       I was warned not to try !fdisk    years ago since shelled out commands do not have access to keyboard,
       so am leery of today trying  !sysinfo  |  more    but you could do something like !sysinfo > foofile.txt
       then ct dos:/foofile.txt
   d) although sysid command or ct messages config   will tell you the system id when d3 is up,
        be aware text file    d3programs\SystemId  seems to hold it also.  {Or I did  !echo 1234567 > SystemId
        and then forgot about it years later, hard to be sure now...}  Remember, when you open a support case
         they will be all 'no tickky no washee' if you cannot cough up the system id.  And winbox file save tapes are not
         edible to linux based d3 boxes so you cannot sel-restore that messages config item onto another
         non-winbox.
   e)  !net view  will, Lord willing and the creek don't rise, show all winboxes on lan,
         then for example  !ping   -n   1     fredbox     will tell you  fredbox's   ip address like [192.168.0.86]
         or [xx:yy:zz:...] form if they're doing the ipv6 thing instead of ipv4.  Which can happen even if both ipv4 /ipv6
         are enabled, it seems.
    f)  !net view     fredbox    or !net view  192.168.0.86   only works if guest account there is enabled, I think.
         But if that is a network-based standalone printer, it probably is.  Suggest you browse http://192.168.0.86/
         to get more printer details if onsite...
    g) folder d3programs are in  and how full is hard disk  --  do   !dir /w   to show both, or just  !cd      shows like c:\program files (x86)\d3programs
     h)  what folder are virtual tapes in on windows side --   the verb   LIST-DEVICE   shows this as "Device Name" column
             -- then !dir   that folder to see time stamps and file sizes to see if your fancy overnight file-save demon is toes-up.
     i)   remember to  FREE   at each dialin to see if vme is mysteriously filling up.  Rare but big trouble if left untreated...
                
You might want to google up on 'port knocking' ; like on linux you can tcpdump to see packets coming in before
they go 'spang!' on your shiny new firewall, so you should be able to whittle something up to let your boss connect
to work from his vacation cabana without impairing security much.

And install at least parts of cygwin on your d3/win server so you can use neat commands like md5sum, sort, grep, diff, locate, awk, sleep and which  in  your !   command pipelines at  tcl ":" prompt.

[fwinans]

Erm, finally read the stuff I googled on win2012, to get to the extra start icons you right-click in empty area of start screen, then left click the All Applications icon that appears in a bar at bottom of start screen.  Suggest you pin your d3 device manager and file  manager icons to start screen, maybe make icons on desktop for them too.  Oh, and you shut down win2012 by doing start screen, power icon, shutdown. Ugh!  And thanks Scott Lowe for those tips I found in Google.

[Tony Gravagno]

Consider doing what has worked in Windows since XP or before: Right click an exe and select Create Shortcut. Then drag that onto the desktop.

As to the purpose of doing that in this specific case. You're expanding the VME? I can't think if Any reason to do that. Move all accounts out of the VME except DM. Leave the VME at 256MB for spooler files and occasional testing. Restore the VME to recover all space. If you're running an older release where this is a regular problem, either (a) upgrade to a release where it's no longer a problem, or (b) the process of replacing the VME can be automated. This eliminates the whole thing about going into the device manager, expanding the VME, creating shortcuts, etc.

HTH
T

[fwinans]

peqs got huge that day, when half their winboxes decided they felt more ipv6 than ipv4 today.
Your soln works, but I deplore the start screen's too-hidden extension area(s) and wanted to mention them.

[Tony Gravagno]

Thanks for the info. Your notes are all good for automation, for having Code do the checks rather than doing them manually, and then having client systems emailing or doing other notifications if there is anything of interest. This allows you to avoid manual effort which may not lead anywhere, and to allow you to react quickly whenever something Does come up.

Specific responses inline.

On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 6:26:15 PM UTC-7, fwinans wrote:

   c) I was warned not to try !fdisk    years ago since shelled out commands do not have access to keyboard,

       so am leery of today trying  !sysinfo  |  more    but you could do something like !sysinfo > foofile.txt
       then ct dos:/foofile.txt

Suffice to say, ALL shelled commands wait for input from a user that doesn't exist, so neither D3 not any other application can shell down to those commands, perhaps without stacking/piping to stdin.

You can simplify "ct dos:/foofile.txt" by setting a q-pointer to the folder where you save the file, then access the file like any other D3 file. Avoid magic syntax whenever possible.

I may be mistaken but it looks like your sysconfig and sysinfo commands are from Cygwin, or third-party utilities. Your point is made about getting info by shelling out, but for those specific commands, I don't think they're available in any Windows release.

 

   d) although sysid command or ct messages config   will tell you the system id when d3 is up,
        be aware text file    d3programs\SystemId  seems to hold it also.  {Or I did  !echo 1234567 > SystemId
        and then forgot about it years later, hard to be sure now...}  Remember, when you open a support case
         they will be all 'no tickky no washee' if you cannot cough up the system id.  And winbox file save tapes are not
         edible to linux based d3 boxes so you cannot sel-restore that messages config item onto another
         non-winbox.

If this is a client system, check your email for support renewal notices which have the system IDs. Or put that information into, umm, forgot the word, oh... a database!

About "when you open a support case they will be all 'no tickky no washee' if you cannot cough up the system id" ... Really? You know they have a database too, and rather than turning you away, they can and will look up a system ID if you tell them who the client is. Have you spoken with Rocket Support? Even if they can't identify the system up-front, these days there is a decent chance that they will offer to help get into the client system with you, and to get the details as they go.

And about restoring data, if you have had to get the sysID or any other info more than once by moving data from FSI to VME, you might consider copying that valued data into DM for later reference. DM is a VME account. This and other VAR conveniences are easily coded and installed to end-user systems.

 

     h)  what folder are virtual tapes in on windows side --   the verb   LIST-DEVICE   shows this as "Device Name" column
             -- then !dir   that folder to see time stamps and file sizes to see if your fancy overnight file-save demon is toes-up.

Or you could LIST-SYSTEM-ERRORS (LSE) for a faster inquiry if your file-save is truly fancy and is logging events ... and it is. :)

     i)   remember to  FREE   at each dialin to see if vme is mysteriously filling up.  Rare but big trouble if left untreated...

Or add some commands into your USERS item so that you don't ever need to manually type these command, or forget to type them:
FREE
POVF (A
MAXUSERS
LIST-SYSTEM-ERRORS
LIST-RUNTIME-ERRORS

That allows you to get a snapshot of your client's system whenever you get in. In fact it forces you to evaluate logged issues on each connection, just in case anything serious is going on.

I really think if managers just did that, that we'd eliminate a lot of scenarios where stuff happens and no one knows about it until something more critical breaks.


HTH
T

[fwinans]

errata:  I meant to say do   !ipconfig    at : prompt,  fatfingered it to !sysconfig
       I intended to say do  !systeminfo  at : prompt, oops I smeared that to !sysinfo
Both ipconfig and systeminfo are in stock win7 and win2012 server, It seems.

[Peter McMurray]

Expand the VME - not a good idea. Why not just clear the clog of hold files that nobody is using. SP-EDIT MUD seems a good idea if the users are that stupid.

As for the System id what is wrong with WHICH CAD.

When doing things like Network why would you bother in D3 simply go to a Windows command prompt.

The place D3 is stored is also easy to find with Windows Explorer and is essential if you want to do a restore of the VME.

DEV-LIST gives a better display of the actual store for pseudo tapes than LIST-DEVICE which truncates the longer names.

Device Manager is an excellent Rocket D3 windows control and as TG says you can always pop up a control icon when you install in the first place.

It seems that one is trying to ignore the normal way of doing things,

[fwinans]

Thanks for the review;  I have posted corrections for what were supposed to be !ipconfig {not !sysconfig} and  !systeminfo {not !sysinfo}, two commands that seem to come with stock win7 and win2012 server. 

 I could go either way on using the form   dos:/foofile   as is versus whipping up a helper qpointer;  I'd have to consider other details for each site to be strongly swayed in this choice, though being consistent in a given site has an appeal, as does making it easier for the next consultant to come along, there.

System id _from_ the vendor?  I think they must like you way more than they do me;  I had to fill out a support case and mark it urgent before being invited to call them instead of awaiting their admittedly prompt call back.  Nope, the line of least resistance is to have it in my hot little hands up front, come the day of troubles.  Call me a Luddite, but I've had _way_ more computers than cars in my lifetime, so a small enough database makes me want to collapse it to just a spreadsheet or a text document on a thumbdrive... or a printout taped to the wall.

It can be a struggle to put nice tools in the md {and especially dm,md,  and then not have to struggle to keep them distributed and preserved at all the sites you want them on.  Bit of a thankless task, really. 

[fwinans]

Well, this thread is about doing support on a bare remote d3 login or with a somewhat helpful staffer there you've called.
I think I explained how those constraints made the day's chores very much longer than desired.  An somebody else did
the install on this box, in fact I too try to put helpful icons on the desktop.

btw, I'm a bit surprised at the dismissal here of ever enlarging the vme.  It's a harmless and sometimes helpful procedure, not some dirty little secret vice.

Thanks for the notes on  which cad  {and remember, not   which (cad   , ever!} but I make that my second choice since they toss a bunch of escape strings in the output to do highlighting, and I'm typically going to copy and paste that from my terminal emulator screen to an editor session for use elsewhere.  Nice to be reminded that dev-list does not crop longish filenames...

And yes I readily admit you and Tony G may find the mentioned release of windows easy to navigate around in.  Feel free to 'skip a bit, Brother' {ref: Holy Hand Grenade}.   I suspect at least a few people will eventually find my remarks helpful.  Apologies in advance if that reduces your future revenue stream, I'm sure you merit no such disservice.

[Ross Ferris]

If you have a BOM type application & want to use "within", sometimes you have to use/enkarge VME

[Peter McMurray]

Agreed Ross however I would suggest that you use "within" far more than anyone else I have ever met - I am afraid I never trusted it so it was no loss when the VME fell out of favour :-)

Frank  why are you attempting to do operating system work on any site to which you only have a bare D3 login. Surely they have an IT department to look after that sort of stuff. In my situation If I have to go outside of D3 I make sure that they give me a proper login. In fact only recently one site couldn't update the Cisco that we had been using when we went to Windows 10 on our site. They very soon came up with a browser based secure alternative when it was pointed out that they would have to take responsibility for the D3 until they did. By the way they have over 250 servers covering the Asia Pacific from Us through China, India and based in Australia. I think the servers are currently in a data centre in Melbourne. The very least your client should do is load a copy of Accuterm or similar. 

[David Knight]

Recently I've had 2 reasons to expand the vme..... both related and out of my control.

I use 'designbais' as a tool, and recently they have supplied bug fixes via T-DUMPs of compiled code. Apparently some routines are rather large; and cause d3 to respond with 'runaway condition detected....' type issue. Sometimes hitting C to continue would allow the item to load, sometime not in the vme actually ran out of space. Expanding the vme fixed that. The second time was as a result of the same thing: being Flash-compiled, it is always a good idea to re-flash-compile using the (W option [because I do not have source]; and on a couple of apparently rather large core routines the vme would run out of space! I think I'm sitting at 512 now.

[Ross Ferris]

Or if not Accuterm, something like TeamViewer which can punch through most firewalls (assuming not against corporate policy)

[Ross Ferris]

Flash-compile-all (ow

Is always useful when moving flashed code

[Ross Ferris]

[Glen Batchelor]

+1 for TeamViewer "personal".. :D

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 11:42 PM, Ross Ferris <ross....@hotmail.com> wrote:

Or if not Accuterm, something like TeamViewer which can punch through most firewalls (assuming not against corporate policy)

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[Peter McMurray]

Is DesignBais really that badly written.

Small Calls have been the order of the day for D3 for many years now. Big Blob code went out years ago. I regularly recompile and optimise over 1000 routines in a couple of minutes and VME size has never been an issue.

 

I cannot remember when the advice to use small routines first came into the manual but it was a devil of a long time ago - see Compiling programs in the manual.

Also it seems that Designbais may be shipping optimised code which is directly against recommendation because optimisation expands the size.

"Shipping FlashBASIC code is only recommended when a vendor wishes the code to run on a single platform, and when media size is not an issue" 

Regarding access I regularly use TeamViewer where the user needs to initiate the session on smaller sites whilst the high security area I mentioned soon came up with a web based Citrix solution on a virtualised install that ties a user to the specific routines that they configure..  

[Tony Gravagno]

About Rocket Support, they have a website for looking up calls, the system ID is in emails for prior calls, orders, and renewal notices. And yes, if you open an email ticket (rather than posting the ticket online where you can select your client from a dropdown) I believe they would be inclined to provide you with the ID if you said something like "This is __ __, with __ __, I have an urgent issue with end-user ____. I don't have their system ID right now, please provide it and open a call. Thanks."

Suffice to say: "Rocket Software is not TigerLogic / Raining Data / Pick Systems". This is a completely different company with different software and procedures. It's the company that has been serving U2 users well for a long time now. Their Support department has a different mindset and a lot more freedom to serve than TL/RD did. Try not to make assumptions about what they can't do or about how friendly they are - just ask them to work with you and see what happens. On a case by case basis we'll all have better or worse luck than at other times, but that holds true for all support entities everywhere.

About vendor utilities, I have a NEBULA-RND account on my client systems and it has whatever routines I need there. Catalog entries go from dm,md to the account. The catalog entries can be copied from that account to any other account including DM through a path. I know every situation is different but I don't understand how an application provider, value-add-reseller, or DBA can have a problem getting access to the primary administration account (dm), especially given all of the other things we're talking about in this thread. If you have That many clients needing your updates, just look at how most other apps these days pull in updates and consider writing something similar for yourself. I was doing this but had to put it aside for a while for lack of time. I guess I should get that one going again...

Regards,
T

[Tony Gravagno]

On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 4:29:34 PM UTC-7, fwinans wrote:

btw, I'm a bit surprised at the dismissal here of ever enlarging the vme.  It's a harmless and sometimes helpful procedure, not some dirty little secret vice.

But unnecessary. It's like saying we need to mount a fifth tire on the car in case one of the gets a flat. No, just fix the flat. Or in terms: Don't store data in the VME, monitor it, and periodically schedule a /restore. What happens when the fifth wheel gets a flat? You need to change it anyway. What happens when you double VME space and you run out of frames there? You need to /restore anyway. If you do this too often, update the DBMS. If it's still a problem, automate the process. It's not tough.


 

Thanks for the notes on  which cad  {and remember, not   which (cad   , ever!}

Um, why not?


 

but I make that my second choice since they toss a bunch of escape strings in the output to do highlighting, and I'm typically going to copy and paste that from my terminal emulator screen to an editor session for use elsewhere.

Try the X option ... from the manual.


I think what's happening in this thread is that you started with some nice notes. But as we go we're seeing "hey look at this trick"and "isn't this cool", and awkward workarounds for normal documented functionality. Kudos for the tips and all, but in some cases there the documentation is ripe with detail and some of us are doing things by the book, or "mainstreamishly", so we're missing the reason for the awkward tricks and suggestions that things don't work. I think a better approach for some of this might be : "I have this problem, what's the best way to solve it?" Rather than: "Here's how I solved this problem and I think other people should do it like this rather than being dismissive." Or how about : "Here's what I've been doing, is there a better way?"

Sometimes Pick guys just continue doing things for years, because that's the way they've always done it. That doesn't make it right. In fact, since many Pick people aren't "classically trained" there are a lot of practices in this industry that are downright horrifying, unnecessary, and not complimentary to the platform at all (like file transfers through a terminal emulator or denial of ODBC or other compatibility). In the distant past it wasn't so easy to collaborate and get advice. But these days it's dirt simple and everyone is sharing info (as you generous offer here!). So if you're doing something where you think "there's gotta be a better way" or "I shouldn't need to work around this same problem for decades", ask. That issue might have been solved a decade ago. That's better than having your clients leave you because "those Pick people seem to have to do things that no one else does...".

HTH
T

[Tony Gravagno]

On Saturday, April 23, 2016 at 6:32:47 PM UTC-7, Peter McMurray wrote:

 

Also it seems that Designbais may be shipping optimised code which is directly against recommendation because optimisation expands the size.

"Shipping FlashBASIC code is only recommended when a vendor wishes the code to run on a single platform, and when media size is not an issue" 

I believe that text was written in ancient times, when 5.25" floppies were still on PCs and "size mattered". The size of the object modules doesn't matter anymore given media available today. And all users should re-flash code after an install anyway - specifically because you don't know the source platform so you need to reflash for the current platform.

About the situation described with DesignBais. I can understand large text blocks being sent to a browser - that's bad form which can be fixed, but not unheard of given what tools like that do. As to an object module blowing the runaway limit, I've seen that too. 7000 frame default limit x 4000 frame size = 28MB and some code on an old base does actually push up near the 32MB point. This is usually bad form too but sometimes code gets unweildy like this before it needs to be split apart and modularized. The C option can be used on the Compile verb to remove the EOL from each object line, thus reducing object size. This makes the code un-debuggable, but like many companies, DBI doesn't debug source in the field anyway.

But once again, accounts don't belong in the D3 Windows VME, so there shouldn't be an issue with killing VME frames there.The solution isn't to increase VME space or to adjust system limits but to put the data where it belongs. (Meh, let's not get into FSI frame sizes and limits, I need to get some work done...)

HTH
T

[David Knight]

I think this is not too much of an issue in this SPECIFIC case. True the routine could be broken up; but this is a routine which 'sits' at the mv end of the socket pipe from a web server and handles all the i/o. It then calls subroutines as appropriate. Yeah, I'm guessing it's rather big, but as this is used CONSTANTLY, I wonder if this is a routine which fits the intent of the rule by breaking it? Bit like core-locking back in the day?

I can say the performance of a system is outstanding, so it must be doing something 'right'?

[fwinans]

Sometimes you may find your  mkdev  -t ntprinter     -n 123   -a "\\somebox\someshare"
fails with "invalid association id";   we overcame this on a site but am unsure of which of
the two final corrective actions was key ;  a) changing what userid the d3vme service
runs as, or b) recreating printer on somebox with a printer name that is short, has no
spaces in it {then just being paranoid gave same share name as printer name, and
on d3 server made a printer definition icon that sends jobs over to that \\somebox\fooshare
and again, offers a share \\d3box\fooshare   }

Anyway, from time to time you might be interested in windows userids;

    !dir  /q    c:\somefolder\somefile.dat

will tell you what windows userid owns that file

    !whoami

will tell you what windows userid your d3vme service is currently running as.
So will 
    !net  workstation  config
 but it is more verbose than !whoami. 
The    net  workstation  config   is a report, not an attempt to adjust the config.

Plz do not attempt any experimental dos commands as another windows
userid using  !runas        since  a) I have not tried it but may fail due to lack of
windows permission to interact with desktop.   b)  I am afraid to try it since I'm
morally certain if windows doesn't reject the command then d3   !   feature will
hang the subshell since it is asking for impossible to provide user input.  You'd
have to get another pick port to rescue your hung port.  Works swell from a
cmd.exe window though, and it pops up a requestor for windows userid ,
 password,  {and maybe nt doman name if your office is in a windows nt domain}

Erm, if you _are_  standing at the windows console of d3 server, you can also
use mouse to run an icon as another windows user -- I know that al lrecent
windows releases lack the 'run as windows user' line item in right-click menu,
but at least on my win7 box  the line item is still retained in  SHIFT-right-click
dropdown menu.  Which the windows help docs seem to not mention, they
just note the feature was intentionally omitted from the regular right-click  menu
in this release.

Erm, that dev-make would also fail if the requested line was busy,  or bigger
than your number of pibs, or {I think}  !net view  is not currently giving you
a list of windows computers,  or that winbox is firewalled in such a way that
you get "access denied"  trying to do   !net  view  somebox      to see the
list of shares it is offering you based on your current windows permissions.
I've seen a cmd.exe session on d3 console succeed at doing 
    net  view somebox
but the d3  !  feature fail to perform  !net view somebox 
just because  the  windows userid as shown by whoami   differed between  the
cmd.exe screen and the d3vme service...  To be honest the most common
problem was me fat-fingering the command line, though... Gotta love that
   .L     feature of d3, and/or windows scrollback feature of  Accuterm...

Erm, speaking of   net  view  and    netbios -- If you think that    somebox    is the
netbios master browser, you can do  

  nbtstat  -a   somebox   

and if you see the string "_MSBROWSE_"  then you guessed right.   By itself
   nbtstat  -a
gives names only of all computers, much like  just doing
   net   view
does.

On a windows nt domain you would suspect the domain controller box to also be
the netbios master browser.


On Wednesday, April 20, 2016 at 4:01:55 PM UTC-5, fwinans wrote:

 !ipconfig    at : prompt

<snip>

 !systeminfo  at : prompt

<snip>