Names of "Screen Generators", 4GL tools

[Dawn Wolthuis]

I'm putting the names of various "screen generators" or what was once known as 4GL development tools on a slide and have the following for the MV space:

Blacksmith, the first one from Blacksmith Corporation, now ONgroup

Simple, from Pr1me perhaps or was there another vendor in the mix? Gone.

System Builder, then SB+, SB/XA, now from Rocket Software

Cuebic, from Cuebic (no longer supported?)

DesignBais, from DesignBais

Viságe, from Stamina Software, part of Pentana Solutions

Evoke, from BlueFinity

Proprietary VAR tools, such as Envision, now Colleague Studio from Ellucian

Does anyone have others to add to this list, whether currently marketed or not, whether proprietary or not? Tool name, development organization and current supporter of the product would be helpful information. There was one that Chandru worked on, for example, filed under "F" in my brain, but I can't retrieve it. I know there are more. I have enough to make the point I'll be making with the slide, but I was curious how many others we could collectively name.

Thanks.  --dawn

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Dawn M. Wolthuis

Take and give some delight today

[Dan Ell]

Wizard by Ken Simms

 

Cygnet by Ell Systems and Swan Consulting

 

Dan Ell Technical Support Engineer P:  949-383-2429 E:  da...@jbase.com  |  W:  jbase.com A:  9245 Research Drive, Irvine, CA 92618

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[geneb]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

> I'm putting the names of various "screen generators" or what was once known
> as 4GL development tools on a slide and have the following for the MV space:
>
> Blacksmith, the first one from Blacksmith Corporation, now ONgroup
> Simple, from Pr1me perhaps or was there another vendor in the mix? Gone.
> System Builder, then SB+, SB/XA, now from Rocket Software
> Cuebic, from Cuebic (no longer supported?)
> DesignBais, from DesignBais
> Viságe, from Stamina Software, part of Pentana Solutions
> Evoke, from BlueFinity
> Proprietary VAR tools, such as Envision, now Colleague Studio from Ellucian
>

The bane of my existence, Vision and Screen Gen. Author is deceased.

g.

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ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
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[Glen Batchelor]

You know you love it.. :)

[Bill Crowell]

Pavuk, from Pavuk Systems!

[geneb]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, Glen Batchelor wrote:

> You know you love it.. :)
>

It's a toss-up between Screen Gen assembler modes and an ice pick in my
left ear. :)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Excellent, thanks Dan!

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

Is there any cause and effect in your two statements?  Thanks Gene.  --dawn

[Glen Batchelor]

Boy is that one loaded... bwahah

--

[geneb]

On Tue, 27 Sep 2016, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

> Is there any cause and effect in your two statements? Thanks Gene. --dawn
>

Nope. I'd love to have him still be around so I could call him up at all
hours of the night and rail at him about writing purposefully obfuscated
code. :)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Of course! I knew that, Bill, sorry I missed it in my first list.   Thanks    --dawn

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[Richard Wilson]

Revelation
Revg2b = Rdesign
Arev = Paint
OpenInsight = ?? I'm not sure it has a name

wasn't there something from USC call Toads?

Rich

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

Yes, yes, the OI tools. If someone knows what morphed into what and what the current tool is called (just "OpenInsight"?) I'm interested in that. AREV to OI? Is the dev tool named the same as the DBMS?

Yes, I flew out to USC in the late 80's to evaluate TOADS. Memories. We ended up with food vouchers at a hotel where the restaurants were closed but the bar was open. That's how I know that 1 margarita is a good self-imposed limit.

--dawn

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[Richard Wilson]

I don't believe there were any revelation tools to handle moving from
rdesign > paint > openinsig

I've always done it one screen at a time

Rich

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

OK, then as you listed them Revelation Revg2b had Rdesign; Arev has Paint; OpenInsight is the name of both the dev tools / 4GL and the DBMS. Each is a separate dev tool. That clarifies. Thanks.

--dawn

[Steve Johnson]

Chandru's product was name "Forge" IIRC

Regards,
Steve Johnson

Progenixx, Inc.

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

Yes, that's it!  Thanks Steve.  --dawn

[Mark Taylor]

I have been using a program by Roger Hughes and Samuelson Computer
Services. In the code it says it mimics Screenpro Processor.


My last revision shows January 17, 1985.


Mark

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[Mark Taylor]

It might be called Screenfree. The main subroutine it calls is
Microscreen. It never really gives a name for the program. Maybe someone
else is old enough to remember it.


Mark

[Wols Lists]

On 27/09/16 18:28, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:
> I'm putting the names of various "screen generators" or what was once
> known as 4GL development tools on a slide and have the following for the
> MV space:
>

&Pace, from Ampersand Systems of Bristol, iirc.

That was nice, you designed the layout of your screen and it managed the
movement between fields, with a way for you to add what ever pre- and
-post field or screen or whatever point you wanted. Maybe that's the way
most other 4GLs work, it seemed unusual from the few I knew.

I might be able to dig up some more details, I acquired a set of manuals
and they're buried in the depths somewhere. That ran on Pr1me, I don't
know if it ran on anything else.

Cheers,
Wol

[George Gallen]

What about ALL? back on Reality 2.0 - I remember that one back on our McDonnell Douglass spirit system.

George

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From: mvd...@googlegroups.com <mvd...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Richard Wilson <rwils...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 2:28 PM
To: mvd...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Richard A Wilson
Subject: Re: [mvdbms] Names of "Screen Generators", 4GL tools

 

[Bob Wyatt]

ScreenPro was a product of Reality back then as well…

 

ALL became ProIV – Northgate – NGAHR - today

[George Gallen]

Hated ALL.  - just thinking about it again has almost made me curl up in a ball!

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From: mvd...@googlegroups.com <mvd...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bob Wyatt <bwyat...@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 4:27 PM
To: mvd...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [mvdbms] Names of "Screen Generators", 4GL tools

 

[Simon Verona]

Circa 1984 on ADDS Mentor we had a code generator called "Implementor". We developed a whole load of screens and then dumped the code generator and coded from scratch.... However, Implementor set the screen designs for all our code and the actual code structure - even for our start-from-scratch code!

[Ed Clark]

There was one called Nucleus http://binarystar.com/nucleus.html http://www.easyco.com/initiative/4gls/nucleus.htm which I think was the brainchild of Harvey Rodstein.

There was one called Osmosis from Ca-Software, which I think was Neil Charrington.

Some applications are built on proprietary 4gl’s and expose them as a feature. One such is System Painter in Execontrol https://execontrol.com/business-software/execontrol-features/

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Good info, Ed. Thanks a bunch. Thanks to Mark, Wol, George, Bob, and Simon too. Wow, there have been a lot of such tools.   --dawn

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[Derek Falkner]

Back in 1979 I was introduced to THOR which was, I believe, provided by Escom. It ran on the Microdata Reality series.

Derek Falkner

On Sep 27, 2016, at 1:28 PM, Dawn Wolthuis <dw...@tincat-group.com> wrote:

I'm putting the names of various "screen generators" or what was once known as 4GL development tools on a slide and have the following for the MV space:

Blacksmith, the first one from Blacksmith Corporation, now ONgroup

Simple, from Pr1me perhaps or was there another vendor in the mix? Gone.

System Builder, then SB+, SB/XA, now from Rocket Software

Cuebic, from Cuebic (no longer supported?)

DesignBais, from DesignBais

Viságe, from Stamina Software, part of Pentana Solutions

Evoke, from BlueFinity

Proprietary VAR tools, such as Envision, now Colleague Studio from Ellucian

Does anyone have others to add to this list, whether currently marketed or not, whether proprietary or not? Tool name, development organization and current supporter of the product would be helpful information. There was one that Chandru worked on, for example, filed under "F" in my brain, but I can't retrieve it. I know there are more. I have enough to make the point I'll be making with the slide, but I was curious how many others we could collectively name.

Thanks.  --dawn

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Dawn M. Wolthuis

Take and give some delight today

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[Tony Gravagno]

Simple Source by Houston Data Center / Ken Dumasnil (sp?).
Boston by ? (I think Alan Gruskoff knows) (Still have it on 3.5" floppies)
TPH = The Programmer's Helper by Fred Waltman?
OHM Systems in Ohio had one too, don't recall the name.
WebWizard by Mel Soriano / EagleRock IS
Symbion by Gary Huffer - built as a front-end for the AccuTerm GUI

I wrote one, proprietary to generate the entire UI for a pharmacy system. Never had a name for it, it was just "the screen generator". But (to my knowledge) it was the first mail-order pharmacy business in the USA back in the late-80's, and the tool package worked very well. Unfortunately the code was lost in business acquisitions.

A couple years I also wrote a utility that generated Java and Android apps from BASIC. It was a prototype, not full-featured of course but modestly functional. I gave up because I knew I was going to be unable to keep up with Android paradigms and that it wouldn't be worth the effort given the apathy in this industry. I only mention this because the number of tools in the industry probably pales compared to the number of private projects that were started, never published, maybe used in only one company.

HTH
T

[Charlie Noah]

T, you didn't keep a copy on your own computer? ;-) I have kept a copy of everything I've ever written for others - if I could get permission, of course. Some required non-disclosures, but that was OK.

Charlie

--

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Derek -- That one is timed to be near or before Blacksmith, so I'm really curious about that. I'm guessing it did not get ported to Pr1me, but I would be curious to know.

--dawn

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Tony. The two that look familiar to me are TPH and WebWizard. If anyone knows the company or person behind Boston, I'm curious. Is "Simple Source" related to "Simple" that was on PI?

--dawn

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[Kevin King]

Dawn, did you get MV Tools from Ashwood?

[Dawn Wolthuis]

No I didn't. I just went to their web site and will add mvTools to my list.  Thanks Kevin!

Keep 'em coming. I have more than 20 dev tool names from the MV space already.

If anyone has applications written in any of these tools, I'm all ears hearing what those applications are too. For example, are there any SIMPLE applications left in the world? Someone told me offlist that it was converted from PI to Universe at one point.

Thanks.  --dawn

[Dawn Wolthuis]

And here's another one I missed: Redback

Sheesh, there are likely many more low hanging fruit in this category and even more proprietary application developer tools that would fit in the category of a 4GL, Screen Generator, Code Generator, Rapid Application Development tool, ...  Maybe I should include Accuterm and wIntegrate in this category, but I think of those as telnet clients plus "screen scraper" tools for GUI. Maybe they have some more IDE-like tools these days too?

Does anyone else here use a named set of tools to generate screens, reports, file definitions, field definitions, menus, or anything else in an MV app? These tools might just be used internally by a single company or might be deployed to others. 

Thanks.  --dawn

[Richard Wilson]

GPS (Generalized Prompting System) was used by 100's of Airport FBO (Fixed Based Operator)
and their fueling operations.

We actually used Radio Shack trs80's that would ride around in the fueling trucks and capture
the transactions semi-realtime for later upload to Revelation

I wrote it in the mid 1980's and it ran on Revelation G2b, Advanced Revelation, Prime information
PI Plus, Universe, Unidata, etc etc etc.

Rich

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Rich. Was there a company that distributed the tool and/or the application(s) built using the tool? Are there still applications in production use that were built using the GPS tool? 

I love learning this stuff!  --dawn

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[Richard Wilson]

The end user application was owned by PS Trading out of Dallas, they
were the Oil & Gas  subsidiary of Pacific Southwest Airlines based in San Diego.

I believe they were eventually bought by US Air.

And if I remember correctly they started out on an Evolution system
that was housed an a radar proof room somewhere in San Diego.
The naval ships and their radar would cause all kinds of interference
and system crashes

Rich

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[Will Johnson]

I didnt' see you mention Datamax by Brice Data Systems of Folsom, CA

I don't know what person wrote The Programmer's Helper, but the company name was Alcyona Computer Consultants out of Los Angeles

And the company name for Wizard 4GL was "Wizard Software" out of Fullerton, CA

[Pete Schellenbach]

ScreenDriver from David Hopper / Norse Systems

AccuTerm GUI does have a nice IDE for UI design, but is not a 4GL, as it does not connect the database to the UI - that is left for the programmer.

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Will -- Very helpful!  --dawn

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Pete. I am interested in all MV-related tools too for other reasons, but I agree that the connection between the UI and the DBMS is part of the 4GL, Screen Generator, Code Generator, Rapid Application Design type of tools that I'm curious about with this thread.

Thanks a bunch.  --dawn

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Pete Schellenbach <zump...@gmail.com> wrote:

ScreenDriver from David Hopper / Norse Systems

AccuTerm GUI does have a nice IDE for UI design, but is not a 4GL, as it does not connect the database to the UI - that is left for the programmer.

[Dan McGrath]

Ultradata had a proprietary system called WIMPS that did screen generation, data validation, field progressing/control, DB writing/reading and had hooks for misc subroutine calls. It was used internally to develop the banking software they sold.

--

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Dan. I'm thinking a marketing person might intercept a name like that these days.

--dawn

[Peter McMurray]

HI Dawn

In 1977 we, Stuart Evans and myself trading as Excalibur, wrote and sold POBOL. It was a fully parameter driven program that covered program development from end to end using forms plus the ability to call user subroutines.

The documentation of all routines was automatic from the parameters right down to the files and ENGLISH dictionaries..

Stuart wrote SCREENGEN to run on the AWA VTE6 so that we could develop it. His truly genius idea scared the devil out of me but turned out to be a master stroke. 

We had worked our butts off for months, him churning out pseudo code and me turning it into real code and testing, that had given us a foot high pile of printouts

He announced "if it is that good it should be written in itself". We did and it worked a treat. As it was a single black box it effectively locked itself in the very limited Reality core memory for great speed.

Stuart was constantly making deals whilst I was doing the programming and installs. As a result it morphed into CL1 and CL Systems Ltd and a couple of other iterations plus a micro computer version on the Micromax/MicroStar.

I left when the deals got too messy, lawyers and accountants lack the vision for such a project.

 I realised that the single black box was not a good idea on memory partitioning machines such as the Micromax and was a problem for clients locked in to secret code on MV so I built a System Generator I called ARGO. When the MicroStar was killed by the IBM PC I wrote a version for R83.

That has now been used on most MV platforms since for our Excalibur Oil Distribution System. I admire the CueBic directors for the marketing skill in selling the product rather than the applications - my mistake.

I switched it to 8 bit Unicode on MV some years ago but illness and a 16 bit obsession amongst MV suppliers prevented me going the last step. PICK MV has been 100% Unicode compatible at all levels since Dick designed it, it just needs a couple of tweeks in the ENGLISH/ACCESS reporting to wrap it.

One thing that has always amused me is the genesis of ScreenPro. I remember Gary Kildall saying that DOS was based on CP/M because he was the only person that knew why a comma was in a particular place in the code.

I did a job using ScreenPro at AWA's request and on the first day I was fascinated to see options that Stuart and I had brainstormed and dumped but the beauty was a logic error in a function that was in our first version of POBOL and I had fixed on the first full application development. Most peculiar as we had been refused access to Assembler to do our code and ScreenPro hadn't. One was left wondering. 

On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 3:28:52 AM UTC+10, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

I'm putting the names of various "screen generators" or what was once known as 4GL development tools on a slide and have the following for the MV space:

Blacksmith, the first one from Blacksmith Corporation, now ONgroup

Simple, from Pr1me perhaps or was there another vendor in the mix? Gone.

System Builder, then SB+, SB/XA, now from Rocket Software

Cuebic, from Cuebic (no longer supported?)

DesignBais, from DesignBais

Viságe, from Stamina Software, part of Pentana Solutions

Evoke, from BlueFinity

Proprietary VAR tools, such as Envision, now Colleague Studio from Ellucian

Does anyone have others to add to this list, whether currently marketed or not, whether proprietary or not? Tool name, development organization and current supporter of the product would be helpful information. There was one that Chandru worked on, for example, filed under "F" in my brain, but I can't retrieve it. I know there are more. I have enough to make the point I'll be making with the slide, but I was curious how many others we could collectively name.

Thanks.  --dawn

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Peter -- I'm going to have to read this a few times, but one question I have from the first time through is whether there is some technical connection POBOL and CueBic or between tools you wrote with Stuart Evans and the CueBic product?

--dawn

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[Fred Waltman]

Brian Stone of Alcyona marketing TPH for me.

Fred.

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Fred. What is the URL (or at least name) for the company that is the vendor of TPH? Is Alcyona the company at alcyona.com?   --dawn

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[Ross Ferris]

No connection between CueBic (which IS still sold & supported Apscore International/Jamie Murray) & POBOL

Other "entries" from Australia :

POSH - written by Warren Dickens

ZAPT - written by me/Stamina Software 

FORMS - written by me & sold by Kymlane

GALA - written by Peter Falson & Sold by AWA/GA

Libra - Pick Power

Internationally

ACT I - Rigden Inc

Amender - EDP Plc

SCADS - Waterloo Information Systems

Screen Tool - The Software Co

SYSPAC - Systems Solutions Inc

Tangram - ISESA (Madrid)

U-Do - UCL Group Plc

There was also a product called ENTER/ENTROC out of the USA available on PR1ME, which I believe was loosely cloned from Simple with some extensions that generated code

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[Ross Ferris]

Hmmm, the ZAPT entry should refer to Pickworks (which became Stamina Software to avoid issues with Pick Systems, and also because STAMINA was a much better acronym!) 

[Ross Ferris]

Ohhh, another Australian product

FreedomBase - by FreedomSoft (Glenn Groves) - product purchased by Revelation in 2008 to become O4W (OpenInsight for Web)

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Ross. Great list. Thanks for including the vendors. I'll look these up.

I thought recently someone was looking for support for CueBic and that Jamie Murray did not do that anymore, but I'm guessing I was mistaken.

I have a vague recollection of ENTROC as a means of having screens for data editing PI files without ED. I don't recall it having flexibility, just generating a screen from a file, but it might have been more that that. I would be far more surprised to hear that anyone is using that tool than SIMPLE. There might still be someone nursing along SIMPLE on PI or maybe even U2. I would be interested in finding a SIMPLE app.

I have more than 40 in my spreadsheet now, so keep 'em coming. Not all of those in my list are still in use anywhere. I'm guessing there still > 100 code gen tools in use in the MV space, many supporting only one application.

--dawn

Sent from my iPad

[Fred Waltman]

Dawn,

Alcyona Computer Consultants is long gone -- died about the time Dick Pick did. I'm not really doing any marketing of TPH these days...

Fred

On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 6:33:10 PM UTC-7, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:

Thanks Fred. What is the URL (or at least name) for the company that is the vendor of TPH? Is Alcyona the company at alcyona.com?   --dawn

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 7:05 PM, Fred Waltman <fwal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Brian Stone of Alcyona marketing TPH for me.

Fred.

On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 11:48:45 AM UTC-7, Will Johnson wrote:

I didnt' see you mention Datamax by Brice Data Systems of Folsom, CA

I don't know what person wrote The Programmer's Helper, but the company name was Alcyona Computer Consultants out of Los Angeles

And the company name for Wizard 4GL was "Wizard Software" out of Fullerton, CA

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[Ross Ferris]

Brian was out of Alcyona before that 'cause I thought he was a VP under Dick when AP/DOS was released

[David A. Green]

ROI (now Epicor) Manage 2000 product SCREEN.BUILD.  Only used for Manage 2000 systems.

 

I’m currently writing BUBBLES that generates a Web Page connected to the U2 database via RESTful services.

 

David A. Green

(480) 201-7953

DAG Consulting

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Dawn M. Wolthuis

Take and give some delight today

 

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[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks David. I think I asked Peter N what you guys call your tools and he said "THE TOOLS" but SCREEN.BUILD works better for my current purposes, and I like the name BUBBLES.  

Thanks.  --dawn

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Take and give some delight today

 

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[Tony Gravagno]

Charlie, back in the late 80s I didn't own a computer. :)

This was on an Ultimate, 9track tape media only, and owned by an insurance company that had full rights to the source, RIP.

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

Charlie wrote:

T, you didn't keep a copy on your own computer? ;-) I have kept a copy of everything I've ever written for others - if I could get permission, of course. Some required non-disclosures, but that was OK.

Charlie

[Fred Waltman]

Thanks, I didn't remember the exact timeline -- why I said "about" :)

[Rob Allen]

ADP owned ROI for a while in the 1980s and used their tool (not sure if it was officially named SCREEN.BUILD yet) to write a package called Distribution 2000. ADP then sold ROI back to its founders; ROI got Manage 2000 and ADP kept Distribution 2000 for a decade or so, but it's also owned by Epicor now, via Prophet 21 and Activant. There's a new, unrelated company called Distribution 2000 now. 

Rob

CDK Global

[Will Johnson]

Dawn there is a tool called both REVISE and ENTER that runs on Universe and sounds like what you are calling ENTROC

In that it allows you to edit items somewhat smartly, without using ED

[Charlie Noah]

Ah, the 80s - brings back memories, some good, some rather painful. I was working a contract for DuPont at the time running RevG. While I was there in Wilmington, DE I bought my first XT clone and a 24 pin Toshiba dot matrix printer. The PC cost $3500 and the printer $1500. They were promptly stolen off the loading dock before I could even get there from my office to take delivery. Fortunately DuPont security was on the ball and recovered them where they'd been hidden by the thieves. I remember taking a set of diskettes to a DuPont factory with our software, and telling the airline that if they ran the disks through their scanners they would be corrupted. The airline insisted in scanning them and of course the disks were corrupted. It took 15 hours to transmit all the files down by 2400 baud modem so we could continue with the install. Not much sleep, but we got the job done. Those were the days!

Charlie

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[Bill Crowell]

Hi Dawn,

I don't see that my reply made it. I have a 4GL that is web-based: www.pavuk.com

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Yes, definitey! I've got it on the list, Bill.  Thanks.  --dawn

On Fri, Sep 30, 2016 at 11:05 AM, Bill Crowell <n4hp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Dawn,

I don't see that my reply made it. I have a 4GL that is web-based: www.pavuk.com

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[Peter McMurray]

Hi Dawn

There is no connection between our tools POBOL,CL1 ,ARGO and Cuebic.

My reference was to the fact that I concentrated on developing and selling applications using the tool whereas they very wisely made money selling the tool.

The maintenance and design effort required in selling applications vastly exceeds the effort in simply looking after the tool.

In our case the fact that the tool was written in itself meant that there was zero maintenance requirement as everything either worked or nothing worked. 

[Anthony Youngman]

On 29/09/16 05:04, Dawn Wolthuis wrote:
> I have a vague recollection of ENTROC as a means of having screens for
> data editing PI files without ED. I don't recall it having flexibility,
> just generating a screen from a file, but it might have been more that
> that. I would be far more surprised to hear that anyone is using that
> tool than SIMPLE. There might still be someone nursing along SIMPLE on
> PI or maybe even U2. I would be interested in finding a SIMPLE app.

I remember ENTRO. I think some of the guys at my site liked it, but as I
remember it, it was basically just an editor that used field names
instead of line numbers, and it had some smarts for multi-values.

I *might* even be able to find a manual! (Pr1me)

Cheers,
Wol

[Doug Averch]

U2logic has had a web "screen generator" since 2002 call XLr8Developer that you can add to your list. The output is HTML/JavaScript and runs on most browsers like IE, Edge, Chrome, Firefox, and Opera. It requires you have Eclipse IDE to develop since XLr8Developer is Java based. It runs on Universe and Unidata only.

Regards,

Doug

www.u2logic.com

[Chuck Stevenson]

Wol,

Fwiw UV still pretty much has 'ENTRO' but they named it REVISE.

I've used it on occasion for quick&dirty maintenance of multivalued control code items for the application layer.

In UV account see MAKE.MENUS for an example.  Igt's the same as the old old prime make.menus & the same old old prime menus that were once upon a time a nice alternative to using Pick PROC to build green screen menus.  The dictionary tools are still there, too, I think.

    ENTER.S

001 Sentence - Create Stored SENTENCES in the VOC file

002 REVISE USING ENTER.S

    MAKE.FORMATTED.MENUS

001 PAragraph - Maintain formatted MENU definitions

002 REVISE USING ENTER.FMENUS

003 DATA <<I2,NAME OF MENU FILE>>

    MAKE.MENUS

001 PAragraph - Maintain MENU definitions

002 REVISE USING ENTER.MENUS

003 DATA <<I2,Name of MENU file>>

    REVISE.DICTAS

001 Sentence - Invoke REVISE to enter PICK style dictionary items

002 REVISE USING ENTER.DICTAS

    SELECTOR.ENTRY

001 Sentence - Maintain MENU SELECTOR items in the VOC file

002 REVISE USING ENTER.SELECTOR

LIST NEWACC @ VERTICALLY

NAME. REVISE

TYPE. V

DESC. Verb - Invoke the cursor control-independent data entry processor

NAME. REVISE.DISCUSSIONS

TYPE. F

DESC. File - HELP messages, used by ReVise

NAME. REVISE.PROCESSES

TYPE. F

DESC. File - Process parameters, used by ReVise

NAME. MENUS

TYPE. M

DESC. MENU selector - Invoke the MENU maintenance menu

That knowledge + $5.49 will get you a pumpkin latte at Starbucks.

cds

[Wols Lists]

On 03/10/16 16:46, Chuck Stevenson wrote:
> Wol,
> Fwiw UV still pretty much has 'ENTRO' but they named it REVISE.
> I've used it on occasion for quick&dirty maintenance of multivalued
> control code items for the application layer.
> In UV account see MAKE.MENUS for an example. Igt's the same as the old
> old prime make.menus & the same old old prime menus that were once upon
> a time a nice alternative to using Pick PROC to build green screen
> menus. The dictionary tools are still there, too, I think.

I wrote a menu program for the company I worked for. It had a definition
record that defined what went on screen where, where the prompt was to
enter your choice, and what to do in response to the user's entry -
calling another menu, running a program, running a paragraph, or
whatever. It also allowed the user to define their own global
references, so they could jump straight to any menu.

It also stored a compiled record, so all the options were in a dynamic
array for quick scanning, and when displaying the record it just printed
the first 23? lines of the compiled record because all the screen
control codes were in it.

>
> That knowledge + $5.49 will get you a pumpkin latte at Starbucks.

Not here it won't - they don't take dollars :-) (and I dunno as I like
the sound of that - we don't normally eat pumpkin and I don't really
like it)

Cheers,
Wol

[Arthur Martz]

Add a little bourbon!   😏

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[Wols Lists]

On 03/10/16 20:13, Arthur Martz wrote:
> Add a little bourbon! 😏
>
That's the wrong whisky! Make it a good malt!

Cheers,
Wol

>
> On Oct 3, 2016 2:43 PM, "Wols Lists" <antl...@youngman.org.uk

> <mailto:mvd...@googlegroups.com>
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> <http://groups.google.com/group/mvdbms>

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[JJCSR]

A follow-up to Tony's mention of Simple Source.   Back in the early 90's our PICK User's Group (Northern New England Pick Users Assoc.) had Ken Dumesnil as a guest, to talk about his product, Simple Source.   He had sold the licensing rights to Houston Data Center, but he was hired by HDC to market and install the product, which sold for, I believe, $895, not including source code.

A year or so later, at one of the Spectrum shows, I bumped into Ken and we chatted about how things were going with Simple Source.   He told me that HDC had taken on a different view of marketing of Simple Source, leading to very few sales.   He and HDC parted ways, but Ken was able to retain ownership of the name, Simple Source.

Shortly after that, I saw an ad in one of the PICK periodicals that was offering Simple Source for $300, all source code included.    I purchased it, and used it for a few applications, then got involved in VB development.

I was able to find the correct spelling of Ken's last name in one of the programs in the Simple Source BP file that still exists on our system.  

We also used Screen Gen, as was mentioned in this thread by others.   The original, pre-Assembler-Code version allowed one to create BASIC Code, which reduced development time, considerably.   You could create 90%-95% of the desired code very quickly.

Jim Cronin

Kittery Trading Post

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 6:08:42 PM UTC-4, Tony Gravagno wrote:

[Dawn Wolthuis]

Thanks Jim, good info. I put some of this in a spreadsheet and might be looking to get more info on each of the screen generators out there for which there are 

a) still sites using an application built with them

b) some organization or person who has the source code

c) source code written in MV BASIC

The last two of these are optional.

Do you think there might still be folks with Simple Source applications, and, if so, would they likely have the source code?

I gather there are still Screen Gen apps out there. Who has the source code for that?

Thanks.  --dawn

 

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[Peter McMurray]

Hi Dawn

The ScreeGen that Stuart Evans wrote for us to use as the basis for writing POBOL was sold by him to Peter Harvey of CDSA in exchange for office space and computer time. I discovered to my horror a year after the event that there was a considerable misunderstanding between Stuart and Peter about the basis of the sale but these things happen. Peter went on to use it very successfully, developing a Hospital system that I believe he sold to McDonnell Douglas.

I remember with some amusement the genesis of the hospital system. Every Thursday a chap from the hospital would come in and enter all his data on the CDSA machine using a terrific data entry tool called ED :-)  He would then use ENGLISH to do the sorts from Dictionaries that Peter had set up, leaving with a sheaf of print outs,a very happy man.

This was in the days when Frank Broos sold REALITYS from a whiteboard demonstrating ENGLISH. Peter is a very bright computer engineer who had built a Golf Driving Range system and was providing a Bureau service to Silver Top Taxis in the mid '70s.

The last time I saw him was at a Sydney Pick Conference around 2000 and he was contracting in Sydney with Frank Broos. 

[James Schram]

And when you bought it you received a lapel pin of a wizard, still have the one I got.

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 10:33:03 AM UTC-7, DanEll wrote:

Wizard by Ken Simms

 

Cygnet by Ell Systems and Swan Consulting

 

Dan Ell Technical Support Engineer P:  949-383-2429 E:  da...@jbase.com  |  W:  jbase.com A:  9245 Research Drive, Irvine, CA 92618

From: dawnwo...@gmail.com [mailto:dawnwo...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Dawn Wolthuis
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2016 1:29 PM
To: mvd...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [mvdbms] Names of "Screen Generators", 4GL tools

 

I'm putting the names of various "screen generators" or what was once known as 4GL development tools on a slide and have the following for the MV space:

 

Blacksmith, the first one from Blacksmith Corporation, now ONgroup

Simple, from Pr1me perhaps or was there another vendor in the mix? Gone.

System Builder, then SB+, SB/XA, now from Rocket Software

Cuebic, from Cuebic (no longer supported?)

DesignBais, from DesignBais

Viságe, from Stamina Software, part of Pentana Solutions

Evoke, from BlueFinity

Proprietary VAR tools, such as Envision, now Colleague Studio from Ellucian

 

Does anyone have others to add to this list, whether currently marketed or not, whether proprietary or not? Tool name, development organization and current supporter of the product would be helpful information. There was one that Chandru worked on, for example, filed under "F" in my brain, but I can't retrieve it. I know there are more. I have enough to make the point I'll be making with the slide, but I was curious how many others we could collectively name.

Thanks.  --dawn

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[David A. Green]

Most of my imports into U2 have been with flat files. 

 

Can I import directly from an SQL database or do I have to export SQL database to a flat file first?

[Kevin King]

I'm thinking that anything is possible but going to a flat file first and then into U2 simplifies things immensely.

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[jes]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 10:46:24 AM UTC-4, James Schram wrote:

And when you bought it you received a lapel pin of a wizard, still have the one I got.

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 10:33:03 AM UTC-7, DanEll wrote:

Wizard by Ken Simms

As one of Ken Simms' closest friends, it was my sad duty to go through his crowded

Irvine apartment to dispose and distribute his stuff after his passing in November, 88.

I only kept a few mementos, including a handful of these lapel pins and the 

electric guitar he used both to record his song "Freeway Combat" and to perform

in an unnamed band at a local singles party in Huntington Beach. (I played keyboards).

You have to have known Ken to appreciate how he brought down the house with

his rendition of "Wild Thing". It was hilarious.

Besides the serious regret of him being outright killed by a Huntington Beach Osteopath,

who faced trial for this as well as another patient death and was acquitted on both,

I regret allowing his first generation Moog Synthesizer to slip away to unknown hands.

His bathrobe, AKA "Corporate Headquarters", went to the guys at Laguna Software,

where it may have been framed if memory serves.

It also bears mentioning that Bob Guthrie of Sydney, Australia took over support and

distribution of Wizard after Ken passed away. Not sure where it went from there.

jes 

[Tony Gravagno]

Just caught this off-topic inquiry. I agree with Kevin that SQL>flatfile is the simplest pattern, but the flatfile doesn't need to be a single disk file. You can Execute a query to any SQL DBMS with common tools, and through those tools (stored procedure, Java, C#, PHP, etc) have the result formatted into MV-style file=records. With Universe a type 19 file definition can then just read those as though they were generated from BASIC. Same with D3/OSFI and QM or Unidata with DIR files. The data does need to be parsed, there's no escaping it, it just depends on where you can get the most "automatic" parsing into a usable format for the least amount of coding.

Similarly, another option would be to call to an OS-level program which reformats the data into a flattened structure, and have the return value of that program come back to BASIC as a normal dynamic array. Example syntax:
EXECUTE "!myodbc SELECT foo,bar FROM baz" RETURNING RESULT
* At this point RESULT has one atb per field and each atb has a value for each record

T

On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 4:25:03 AM UTC-7, Kevin King wrote:

I'm thinking that anything is possible but going to a flat file first and then into U2 simplifies things immensely.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 12:56 PM, David A. Green wrote:

Most of my imports into U2 have been with flat files. 

 

Can I import directly from an SQL database or do I have to export SQL database to a flat file first?

 

David A. Green

DAG Consulting

[David A. Green]

Tony,

 

I’m having some success using UniBasic SQL statements.  I am able to connect to an external Data Source.  Now I’m trying figure out how to actually pull data out of the SQL database.

 

Here is what I have so far:

 

    PROGRAM DAG.SQL.TEST.BUBP

    *

    *

    *

    $INCLUDE INCLUDE ODBC.H

    *

    GOSUB INIT.SUB

    IF NOT(ABORT.FLAG) THEN GOSUB INIT.BCI.ENV

    IF NOT(ABORT.FLAG) THEN GOSUB INIT.CONNECT.ENV

    IF NOT(ABORT.FLAG) THEN GOSUB CONNECT.DATA.SOURCE

    *

    PRINT MSG

    IF ERROR.MSGS THEN

      PRINT CONVERT(@AM, CHAR(10), ERROR.MSGS)

    END

    STOP

    !

INIT.BCI.ENV:

    BCI.ENV = ""

    *

    STAT    = SQLAllocEnv(BCI.ENV)

    BEGIN CASE

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.SUCCESS

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.ERROR   ; MSG = "Unable to Allocate BCI Environment" ; ABORT.FLAG = @TRUE ; GOSUB GET.ERROR.MSGS

    END CASE

    RETURN

    !

INIT.CONNECT.ENV:

    CONNECT.ENV = ""

    *

    STAT        = SQLAllocConnect(BCI.ENV, CONNECT.ENV)

    BEGIN CASE

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.SUCCESS

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.ERROR          ; MSG = "Unable to Allocate Connection Environment" ; ABORT.FLAG = @TRUE; GOSUB GET.ERROR.MSGS

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.INVALID.HANDLE ; MSG = "Invalid Handle for Connection Environment" ; ABORT.FLAG = @TRUE; GOSUB GET.ERROR.MSGS

    END CASE

    RETURN

!

CONNECT.DATA.SOURCE:

    DATA.SOURCE = DATA.SOURCE

    LOGIN1      = LOGIN.NAME

    LOGIN2      = LOGIN.PASS

    *

    STAT        = SQLConnect(CONNECT.ENV, DATA.SOURCE, LOGIN1, LOGIN2)

    BEGIN CASE

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.SUCCESS           ; MSG = "Connected to SQL Data Source ":DQUOTE(DATA.SOURCE)

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.SUCCESS.WITH.INFO ; MSG = "Connected to SQL Data Source ":DQUOTE(DATA.SOURCE):" with Info"

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.ERROR             ; MSG = "Unable to Connect to SQL Datasource ":DQUOTE(DATA.SOURCE) ; ABORT.FLAG = @TRUE ; GOSUB GET.ERROR.MSGS

        CASE STAT EQ SQL.INVALID.HANDLE    ; MSG = "Invalid Handle for Connection Environment" ; ABORT.FLAG = @TRUE ; GOSUB GET.ERROR.MSGS

    END CASE

    RETURN

!

GET.ERROR.MSGS:

    LOOP

        STAT = SQLError(BCI.ENV, CONNECT.ENV, STATEMENT.ENV, SQL_STATE, DBMS.CODE, ERROR.MSG)

        BEGIN CASE

            CASE STAT EQ SQL.ERROR             ; MSG = "Unable to Retrieve SQL Error"

            CASE STAT EQ SQL.INVALID.HANDLE    ; MSG = "Invalid Handle for SQL Error"

        END CASE

    WHILE STAT NE SQL.NO.DATA.FOUND DO

        ERROR.MSGS<-1> = ERROR.MSG

    REPEAT

    RETURN

!

INIT.SUB:

    ABORT.FLAG    = @FALSE

    DATA.SOURCE   = "Selltis"   ;* As defined in my Windows OS

    LOGIN.NAME    = "dag"

    LOGIN.PASS    = "********"

    ERROR.MSGS    = ""

    BCI.ENV       = SQL.NULL.HENV

    CONNECT.ENV   = SQL.NULL.HDBC

    STATEMENT.ENV = SQL.NULL.HSTMT

    RETURN

!

END

 

David A. Green

(480) 201-7953

DAG Consulting

 

[George Gallen]

I posted this back awhile on the list.

Not a direct import into UV -

After standardizing some programming into subroutines, I put this document together.
It is only for reading data - fairly basic - but gets the job done. It is not an ODBC
it is not a command line solution - just Subroutines.

Make sure you read the Security Concerns I noted on page 2 of the document.

http://www.carcarealert.com/pick/Universe-SQL-Integration.pdf

---

From: mvd...@googlegroups.com <mvd...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of David A. Green <dgr...@dagconsulting.com>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 2:56 PM
To: mvd...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [mvdbms] Importing from an SQL database

 

--

[Ross Ferris]

AFAIK Bob extended product, still sold it, and there are probably still sites on this side of the Pacific that use an iteration of it (at one stage I tried to get him interested in a migration path to Visage as a web/gui from end)

[Bob Guthrie]

Hi, Bob Guthrie from Pick Products in Sydney Australia here.

Wizard is alive and well with thousands of users in South East Asia, USA, and Australia.It runs on all the popular MV platforms

Wizard's approach is to paint a screen and from that definition create a Basic program to run the application.

The latest version can also create from that same program definition, an HTML front end coupled with a backend Basic program.

Both the character-based and the browser-based programs can work on the same data.

Many customers are now using this feature. Although nothing will ever compete with green screen for speed of data entry, the browser interface just works like all Millennials expect, so almost no application training is necessary. And integration with other desktop applications, images, Excel, PDFs, email, etc., is seamless.

Dr Martin Shields heads the development.

And Jon Sisk, if you read this, somewhere I have a cassette of "Freeway Combat".

Bob

[jes]

On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:34:57 AM UTC-4, Bob Guthrie wrote:

Hi, Bob Guthrie from Pick Products in Sydney Australia here.

Wizard is alive and well with thousands of users in South East Asia, USA, and Australia.It runs on all the popular MV platforms

Wizard's approach is to paint a screen and from that definition create a Basic program to run the application.

And Jon Sisk, if you read this, somewhere I have a cassette of "Freeway Combat".

Bob

Hi Bob!

Glad to hear from you again and that Wizard is still alive and well.

First off, deep in storage I have that cassette as well.

I'll try to find it and digitize it.

As to the Wizard approach, Ken was generous enough to donate a Wizard-generated program

we incorporated into our training materials very early on.

You can see this yourself in the free download of my Pick/BASIC Book: http://jes.com/pb

The program was utterly brilliant in its simplicity.

It demonstrated to programmers how a data-entry screen could be table-driven.

To create a new entry screen, one could simply copy the sample program,

modify the tables at the top with the various attribute attributes, then compile and run.

All in about 250 lines of code, half of which were the tables.

30 years later, it still holds up.

Keep the faith,

jes

[Bob Guthrie]

Hi Jon,

I just took a look at the code. Some programmers think they are good if they can write complex code. Good programmers can distill a complex problem into simple code. Simple and maintainable. 

BTW I still have your Pick Pocket Guide on my desk and use it regularly.

Best regards

Bob

[frosty]

Ken was the first person who I ever heard use the word "browse" as a verb in the context of data. Years before the first "browser" was written. His approach to writing code was to go think about it ... for a long time, it seemed to me... before writing any code. I didn't have the patience for that; not back then.

[Wols Lists]

On 12/10/16 23:01, frosty wrote:
> Ken was the first person who I ever heard use the word "browse" as a
> verb in the context of data. Years before the first "browser" was
> written. His approach to writing code was to go think about it ... for a
> long time, it seemed to me... before writing any code. I didn't have the
> patience for that; not back then.

Ten minutes spent designing, will save an hour's coding. Or something
like that. That was good practice back then, and is good practice today.
Think it through, and know what you're doing before you start.

I always used to draft the program in pseudo-code, and then go through
fleshing it out. And yes, I nearly always have a program pretty clear in
my mind before I start writing.

Cheers,
Wol

[Rob Allen]

On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 3:40:36 PM UTC-7, Wol wrote:

On 12/10/16 23:01, frosty wrote:
> Ken was the first person who I ever heard use the word "browse" as a
> verb in the context of data. Years before the first "browser" was
> written. His approach to writing code was to go think about it ... for a
> long time, it seemed to me... before writing any code. I didn't have the
> patience for that; not back then.

Ten minutes spent designing, will save an hour's coding. Or something
like that. That was good practice back then, and is good practice today.
Think it through, and know what you're doing before you start.

At some point in the 80s, the lead Pick engineers at Altos were Kip McAtee and Ken Hoppe, They had very different ways of working. Kip, like me, would try to get something rudimentary working as quickly as possible and then revise and refine until all the needed bells & whistles were in. Ken would think and design and flowchart for a long time, and then sit down and code it on the day before the deadline. Both of them produced working code, so it seemed to be a matter of temperament and preferences.

Ken went on to work for a Sequoia end-user; not sure what became of Kip.

Rob

[BOB GUTHRIE]

Hi Jon,

just had to use my Pick Pocket Guide (version IV). Second time in a week :-)

Hope you are well.

regards

Bob

[George Gallen]

Kinda sorta reminded me of setting up in ALL for Reality back in the 80s. I forget most of it except I didn't like it, but it had a nice screen editor.