Circle of Fifths Clock

[Michael Johnston]

https://viralstyle.com/c/9l8Z2#pid=58&cid=10672109&sid=front
Who wants to make these for ANs? :)

Cheers!
Michael
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[Bob Stuckey]

Thanks for the link, Michael.

 I 'm always using clock diagrams in music theory so this is the next logical step.

Bob

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[Joseph Austin]

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[Doug Keislar]

And the next step after that could be to add MIDI and/or audio input to the clock, so that its hands would automatically rotate to show the current key.  Maybe the minutes hand would point to the current key, and the hours hand would point to the previously detected key, or the second best guess for the current key...

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[Paul]

Or have the clock play the appropriate scale on the hour, say major for
a.m. and minor for p.m.

-Paul

[Joseph Austin]

Michael,

I'm wondering--what would we put on it?

Most favored AN's are isomorphic, so "key signature" is largely irrelevant (except for back-compatability with TN).

And we have yet to agree on any dozenal nomenclature for notes and keys in AN.

Assuming we use dozenal numerals to represent the twelve keys,

the "clock" might look something like this

(being my best spreadsheet approximation of a "circle"):

		5		0		7
	2		9		4		E
X								2
	7						6
3								9
	0						1
8								4
	5		X		3		8
		1		6		E

where the outer circle (red) represent the major keys,

and the inner circle (blue) represents the relative minor keys.

In any case, I think memorizing the dozenal sequence of sevens mod twelve would be more theoretically useful

than memorizing a sequence of seven letters in combination with patterns of 0 to 7 sharps and flats.

As for a real "clock", they are relatively easy to make these days, what with readily available battery powered movements.

And MIDI + Bluetooth shields for an Arduino or similar could provide the MIDI capability.

The intelligence to detect the "key" from the notes played might be more of a challenge, 

but using LEDs at each number position and setting the brightness of individual lamps to the integral of durations of that note

over some moving window would make the clock "glow" in the region of the active key.

Joe Austin

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[gguitarwilly]

Hi all,

I made a clock somewhat similar to this one, but with the hours representing note names, starting with C at twelve, and not organised in the cycle of fifths, but simply following hour numbers. 

My kids use it for transposing capood guitar chord sheets to piano chords so they can play together.

The clock consists of transparent, whiteboard-writeable foil on a white background, and the circle inside the numbers can turn.

With a whiteboard marker they draw two hands on the turning part: one (let's say the long one) at twelve, the other at the fret number the capo is positioned.

Now the 'long hand' is positioned at the root of the guitar chord my daughter is playing (named as if she was playing an uncapood guitar) and the short hand gives the root of the chord the piano should play. Transposing a pop song this way can be done in a minute.

It is also very easy to show which notes go into any chord: draw the intervals on the turning part, then turn it so the first interval starts on any given root note.

This can also be done with scales.

Willem

Op dinsdag 6 juni 2017 23:37:00 UTC+2 schreef Michael Johnston:

[Joseph Austin]

Willem,

All the transposing can be done with the notes in Co5 order--it's just a bit harder to find a given note until you have committed the sequence to memory.

On the other hand, the Co5 order (Circle of 4-7 in dozenal), especially if you include the minor inner circle, allows you to read the notes of a given scale or the principal triads  as s contiguous sequence.

Joe Austin

[Paul]

On 06/07/2017 08:59 AM, Joseph Austin wrote:

I'm wondering--what would we put on it?

For Clairnote, something like the attached. 
(Still need to add the circle of fifths to the Clairnote website...)

Cheers,
-Paul

[Joseph Austin]

Paul, 

But why?

I doubt you would consult the circle to create the Clairnote key signature.

More likely, you know the key signature a priori and place it on the corresponding place on the circle,

independently of the adjacent circle keys.

Joe

[Paul]

On 06/07/2017 05:48 PM, Joseph Austin wrote:

> But why?
>
> I doubt you would consult the circle to create the Clairnote key
> signature.
> More likely, you know the key signature a priori and place it on the
> corresponding place on the circle, independently of the adjacent
> circle keys.

It's just a way to visualize the relationships between the keys, as with
diagrams of the traditional circle of fifths.

Cheers,
-Paul

[John Keller]

Key Clock

John

[Ole Kirkeby]

Here I obviously have to post a link to my rant against the cycle of fifths in TN (http://v3p5.m3guitar.com/html/scales_piano_centric.html) while pointing out the blessings of clock notation (http://v3p5.m3guitar.com/html/notation.html). Preaching to the choir, I know.

[Joseph Austin]

Ole,

I like your piano-symmetric chromatic circle version of the clock.

So now, in addition to choice of labeling and choice of direction of rotation, we now have choice of interval: "fifths" vs. "thirds" vs. semitones!

In science, we tend to call descriptive formulae "laws" while we call predictive formulae "theories".

So my test would be: how can you USE it?

Or put another way, can we use a purported tool or theory to *generate* new music or only to classify existing music?

Having just ranted extensively on the subject myself in an earlier thread,

I'll refer to this: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/musicnotation/OhuguUK5iX4 starting with my April 3 post in that thread.

Suffice it to say my current working hypothesis is that the circle of "fifths"

(which is really a cycle of Pythagorean 3:2 intervals) "works" because,

interpreted as a sequence of Dom 7 chords, it is actually a chromatic sequence of tritones (or what you called flat-5 or sharp-11).

What is curious to me is that music "theory" continues to extol the "circle of fifths" while in fact classical harmony is based on "stacked thirds",

which, as I am fond of pointing out, actually form two spirals of "fifths" (i.e. 3:2s) interlaced in 4:5:6 ratio.

As for scales, I prefer to think of the notes comprising a key in thirds rather than in seconds or fifths, 

that is, as the sequence of the principal triads: , e.g IV I V or ii vi iii.

In this conception, moving from relative minor to major is a "third" (one step on the double-interlaced Co3),

and actually trade one note with an enharmonic, e.g. D' F A' C E' G B'  -> F A' C E' G B' D,

(where the primed and unprimed notes are from two distinct Pythagorean spirals)

and moving from major to dominant, a "fifth," actually replaces TWO notes, one with an enharmonic. e.g. F A' C E' G B' D -> C E' G B' D F#' A

To partially answer my earlier question:

* the stacked thirds principle allows us to create pleasing chords (harmony)

* the circle of fifths allows us to create pleasing chord progressions, by following the circle around

* the scale allows us to create pleasing melodic sequences spanning chord tones with passing tones.

* the concept of keynote allows us to define a melodic or harmonic "distance" from "home" or "rest",

in terms of which we can create a sense of "movement" with "tension" and "release."

So what is missing?  My favorite ax to grind: 

we tend to focus our notation and theory reforms so much on pitch and harmony and neglect rhythm and form.

How about a notation for Rap? For Latin/jazz rhythm?

There is easily twice the ugliness in TN rhythm notation as in pitch notation, 

and I suspect easily as much difficulty for students to "read" and "understand" rhythms,

especially in contemporary jazz/rock-based music with swing, back-beats, and syncopation.

I am advocating for a rhythm approach based on the "poetry" of the music:

rhythmic "feet", line breaks based on phrases and not measure bars,

print music in "stanzas" with all lines visually synced to the same beat in linear (or at least proportional) time,

notate rhythmic position (count) directly instead of requiring calculation of cumulative duration.

"Music is Poetry;  

Why print is as prose?"

Joe Austin

On Jun 15, 2017, at 3:45 PM, Ole Kirkeby <m3roa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here I obviously have to post a link to my rant against the cycle of fifths in TN (http://v3p5.m3guitar.com/html/scales_piano_centric.html) while pointing out the blessings of clock notation (http://v3p5.m3guitar.com/html/notation.html). Preaching to the choir, I know.

[Bob Stuckey]

Hi All,

Another topic spinning off from the clock - Michael's original post had the clockwise=sharpwards whereas John's has clockwise=flatwards. If there had been a choice I would have gone for the latter as that occurs most frequently in chord progressions driven by the sevenths and their drive to fall on to the third of the next chord.

The presence of the seventh means that the diminished triad doesn't stick out like a sore them in the when you go round the "tonal" cycle of fifths eg l-   r-7   s7    d maj7    f maj7  t-7b5  m7  l-     (I will survive , Autumn Leaves, Fly me to the moon etc.)

This sprang out of Italian Baroque I guess around 1650. Or earlier?

The bridge of Everything I do (Bryan Adams) takes five sharpward steps along the cycle of fifths and sounds great but with simple triads , no sevenths.   Bb  Eb Bb F C G D G

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La0IJPt0t4Q

Bob

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[Joseph Austin]

On Jun 16, 2017, at 4:08 PM, Bob Stuckey <bobst...@gmail.com> wrote:

The presence of the seventh means that the diminished triad doesn't stick out like a sore thumb in the when you go round the "tonal" cycle of fifths eg l-   r-7   s7    d maj7    f maj7  t-7b5  m7  l-     (I will survive , Autumn Leaves, Fly me to the moon etc.)

Bob, 

I'm unfamiliar with the notation you are using--I don't recall seeing it used before.

But I'm supposing the letters  l r s d f t m  represent solfedge notes: la re sol do fa ti mi la?

So is that the progression I might call  vi, ii7, V7, Imaj7, IVmaj7, vii7-5, iii7, vi?

Joe Austin

[Bob Stuckey]

Joe

That's right. Wouldn't the third degree be in capitals as it has a major third, so the sequence would end  III7 vi

I prefer solfa chord symbols because la has equal status to do.  Also the syllables are quite stable and don't shift according to whether your thinking of a major or a minor scale, like the third sixth and seventh degrees in Roman numerals.

Bob

--

[Joseph Austin]

Bob,

Of course you are correct the m7 would be III7; I presume the minor would be notated m-7.

BTW, I have a new piano teacher who is increasing my awareness of 3-7 (tritone) intervals.

Which leads me to observe that "harmonic progression" favors either chromatic motion of one tritone to the next (circle of fifths)

or resolution of 7 of dominant to 3 of tonic, and 3 of dominant (7 of tonic) to 1 of tonic.

Which suggests another approach to pitch notation.

Traditionally, we notate pitch relative to the scale or tonality.

But for chord notations, we are focusing more on position within the chord, or pitch relative to the scale of the chord rather than the scale of the tonality of the melody.

Or perhaps what I'm saying is that we can notate position and compute interval, or alternatively, notate intervals and compute position.

The same choice exists in rhythm: TN notates duration (intervals) and computes beat/count; but we could equivalently notate count position (note onset time) and compute duration.

I've been trying to imagine a notation in which rhythm is notated absolutely (positionally) and pitch notated relatively, both for chords and melody.

Joe Austin

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[Doug Keislar]

Hi Bob,

Regarding your second paragraph, I just want to point out that there are two solmization methods for minor keys. One, which you show, labels the tonic with the syllable la. The other labels it as do, and therefore requires chromatic alterations, such as "me" (pronounced like "may") for the third degree, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge#Minor

Doug

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[Ole Kirkeby]

Joseph,

I didn't think about music theory when I started using the clock notation. It was a way to visualize notes, nothing more. I put Ab at midnight instead of C because then the white keys read alphabetically from the top, and the black and white keys are symmetric around a vertical line.

Regarding rhythm notation, I totally agree that it is something that has to be improved. I am currently looking at how to get rid of rests and ties. The idea that everything has to 'reset' on bar lines is immensely annoying. If a note is played on '2 and' it doesn't need a tie, if it is played on '4 and' it does. Crazy. So I am experimenting with proportional note spacing in Lilypond with the bar lines removed. It's a start but it is still some way off what I am aiming for. I think my approach is more strict than yours, though. It is actually very much inspired by piano roll notation since I do a fair amount of midi recording- and editing, and that system seems quite logical to me.

[Joseph Austin]

Bob,

There is something in rhythms somewhat analogous to chords, that is, polyphonic patterns.

If I consider a "rock" piece, or especially Latin, there are several lines going at once, each with a different pattern of durations.

They interlace to produce the overall rhythmic effect.  

Or consider, for example, a typical drummer part, with kick, hi-hat, and snare, plus occasional extras.

Then there is Latin "clave" rhythm, which I don't understand all that well, but it contrasts "twos" and "threes".

When my kids studied Suzuki Violin, the teacher started with rhythm.  They were able to produce the rhythm before ever adding pitch.

But that's not the typical way piano is taught.  Which leads to a lot of unmusical pauses in beginner performance, 

irregularities that could not be tolerated in band, orchestra, or chorus.

As I recall, the Kodály vocal method is also taught rhythm first.

Which reminds me of another ax to grind: pedagogy first!

I keep thinking, the best way to introduce new notation, new terminology, new "theory",

is in the context of a method for teaching new students.

Joe

[Bob Stuckey]

Doug,

Thats true. And likewise for Roman numerals:

vi  ii-7  V7     Imaj7       IV maj7  vii7b5   III7  vi 

can also be thought of as

i    iv7  VIII7   IIImaj7     VImaj7  ii7b5  V7    i    

The popular jazz app iRealPro prefers to analyse harmonic progressions in Nashville numbers either as

6-    2-7   57  1maj7  4maj7  7-7b5  37  6-

or

1-    4-7     b77   b3maj7  b6maj7 2-7b5  57  1-

iRealPro flicks arbitrarily between showing a minor tonic as 6- and 1-  (see settings/font/number notation)

Nashvile numbering doesn't have the wobbly III, VI and VII of Roman numerals and maybe thats why its preferred by

jazz musicians who must be prepared  to play from the notation rather than just doing a pencil analysis.

Resolfa, Im afraid I get overwhelmed by all the chromatic inflections of the solfa syllables and ,
 as you might imagine, prefer the independent syllables cooked up by Richard Parncutt and myself
http://musicnotation.org/wiki/nomenclature/nomenclatures-overview/

which produces another pair of alternative viewpoints

l-   r-7  s7  d maj7    f maj7   t-7b5   m7   l-

or

d-    f-7  z7  w maj7 y maj7   r-7b5   s7    d-

Perhaps the instability of the minor scale is why it is often used to express the precarious nature of human existence...

Bob

[Joseph Austin]

So, Bob, how do you pronounce "xe" to avoid confusion with S and Z sounds?

BTW, I've noticed that alternate letters of English alphabet, starting with b, are all consonants:

b d f h j l n p r t v x z

So, in principle, one could name the twelve chromatic pitches with syllables starting with distinct consonants in a mathematically regular alphabetical order. That is,

one could use single-letter abbreviations on which a computer can do ASCII arithmetic to compute intervals.  

Then the vowels could cycle in 2, 3 or 4, depending on what spacing you prefer for the isomorphic staff.

Joe Austin

[Doug Keislar]

Hi Joe,

That's interesting about the odd-numbered letters. But of course computers can do extraordinarily complex mathematical calculations faster than a human can scratch their head.  So I think it makes more sense to consider only human needs when designing representations that humans are going to use, and then let software engineers figure out how to translate from the human representation to a computer one.  This isn't 1955.  If we can talk to our smartphones, certainly we don't need to worry about whether computers will be able to process whatever musical representation we are envisioning adopting.

This is why the MNMA "screens," later adopted as the MNP desirable criteria for notation systems (http://musicnotation.org/systems/criteria/), start with:
1. The notation is convenient for a human writer (as contrasted with a machine) to express musical ideas.  The notation is convenient for a human performer to recreate those musical ideas.

Doug

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[Bob Stuckey]

Joe,

I like to give the Greek pronounciation to the xe (that is like the ch in the Scottish loch or German ich)

Also to use the Castillian Spanish pronounciation of ze so that it comes out as they so as to contrast with its neighbour Si in fixed Do.

One way to get round the conflict between Si and ti (of fixed Do and movable do) is to pronounce them both as tsi . It doesn't disturb either too much.

If the ASCII plan was to be followed what chromatic syllables could be the result?

Bob

[Joseph Austin]

Bob,

As for possible syllables, let's use  a 3-cycle, as I'm partial to Pertchik's tri-color system.

bo  da  fe  ho  ja  le no  pa  re  to  va  xe  zo (zo = bo)

So the diatonic scale would be:  bo fe ja le pa to xe (zo)

and the pentatonic ("black key") minor:  ho no re va da (ho)

I choose "oh ah eh"  as these are the most "singable" vowels.

Of course, other options are possible.

Pertchik himself uses an alphabet of 3 consonants and 4 vowels, which produces 12 unique syllables in a 3,4 pattern,

but that requires 2-letten names, whereas this scheme allows single-letter abbreviations.

BTW, I had earlier offered an alternative naming scheme for the "black notes", based on the mnemonic "Black Key Notes Play Jazz":

-- ba ki no pe ja -- which in conjunction with "do re me fa so la ti" at least gives every note a unique one-letter abbreviation,

Now I'm becoming convinced our species has it within our power to memorize virtually any system,

regardless how unintuitive and idiosyncratic it is--after all, we learn to spell in English,

and even give awards to children who can memorize the most arcane orthographical renderings.

So I suppose, after some use and practice, nearly any system could be mastered.

But I'm equally convinced that the rigors of mastering our  archaic,  unintuitive systems of notation

(and the compromises needed to adapt our systems to mechanical-acoustic instruments)

are frustrating generations of children who would otherwise master and enjoy MUSIC.

In my mind, the function of instruments is to produce sound,

(without distinction as to whether it is produced mechanically or electronically,

or by what arrangement of tone actuators),

and the function of notation is to cue the performer, 

and to archive compositions for succeeding generations.

In neither case is preserving the notational or instrumental traditions necessary,

or perhaps even particularly effective, in preserving the traditions and performance of the music itself.

(What percentage of the population can actually perform music by sight-reading a score?

A 1974 survey put the percentage at less that 15% for even the simplest line of music,

with only a quarter of that number being willing and able to offer an acceptable performance of a piece of their choice on an instrument they claim to play.

https://books.google.com/books?id=PQkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT58&lpg=PT58&dq=what+percentage+of+population+can+sight-read+music?&source=bl&ots=OI1nVJWOHM&sig=eKm0jlJy-bOT2X8WHi8ThJ8170I&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjK-oyp8tbUAhXE2yYKHWo_DW4Q6AEITDAF#v=onepage&q=what%20percentage%20of%20population%20can%20sight-read%20music%3F&f=false)

But of course I'm preaching (why not singing?) to the choir.

I also understand that computers exist to make things easier for humans, not the other way around, 

so putting the solfedge syllables in ASCII numerical sequence could be construed as trying to force people to make my computer job easier.

But I would argue that "alphabetical order" is easier for humans to deal with, irregardless of computers.

Joe

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[Bob Stuckey]

Joe,

Here an exercise to train the singing of intervals which can be used  to test out any nomenclature. For the time being I will use movable solfa with the the Parncutt/Stuckey chromatic additions va wu    xe yu ze . Ive put in the vowels for these less familiar ones but assume that most people know the vowels of d r m f s l t. Comma means in the lower octave and the apostrophy in the higher as in the John Curwen tradition.

                             Vocaltease                                                                         Traditonal

Con molto espresione. Sing to any syllable

The Diatonic Version

d r d t, l, d m f d s, f, d s l d m, r, d t d' d d, r, d t l d m, f, d s f d s, l, d m r d t, d

The Chromatic Version

d va d t, ze, d r wu d l, yu, d m f  d s, xe, d xe s d f, m, d yu l d wu, r, d ze t d va, d, d

d' t d va, r, d ze l d wu, m, d yu s d  f, xe, d xe f d s, yu, d m  wu d l, ze, d  r  va  d  t, d

It is quite systematic The diatonic version goes 1st 2nd 1st -2nd -3rs 1st 3rd 4th 1st etc

The chromatic version goes in semitones 0 1 0 -1 -2 0 2 3 1 -3 -4 1 4 etc

A range of two octaves is needed to sing it all but if your range is less just retreat towards middle do sooner.

How would the the dyllable plan you describe come out in the chromatic version?

Bob

[Joseph Austin]

Bob, I've worked out the diatonic version; the chromatic would follow a similar pattern.

Chromatic Scale: (up and down): bo da fe ho ja le no pa re to va xe zo xe va to re pa no le ja ho fe da bo

Diatonic Scale (up an down): bo fe ja le pa to xe zo xe to pa le ja fe bo

Diatonic Exercise:

bo fe bo xe, to, bo

ja le bo pa, le, bo

pa to bo ja, fe, bo

xe zo bo bo, fe, bo

xe to bo   ja, le, bo

pa le bo pa, to, bo

ja fe bo xe, bo 

Joe

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[Bob Stuckey]

Joe,

When you get to the octave above bo it turns into a zo . Why is that?

I would mention that in VaWu the vowels do not repeat until 4 semitomes where as in BoDa (if we may call it that) the vowels repeat every 3 semitones therefor offering less contrast and variety.  Did you consider a series of four vowels for  BoDa?

Of course this investigation takes place in an ideal world where there is no confict with conventions and habits of a lifetime.

Bob

[Joseph Austin]

Re "bo" vs "zo"

Well, there are 13 consonants in the series but only 12 unique pitches, (pitch classes),

so why not use the 13th syllable redundantly.

It's a lot like, does the day start at "twelve o'clock" or "zero o'clock"?

If you prefer, you can change "zo" to " bo' "

I just thought, when singing an octave scale, one might want different syllables for the low and high notes.

If you want to vary vowels by 4, that is easily doable.

Clearly traditional solfedge uses 4 vowels, though not in strict rotation.

Pertchik varies the consonants by 3 and the vowels by 4.

As you observe, overcoming a lifetime of habit is difficult.

Singing the scale in thirds instead of seconds would also take some practice

(for starters, you would need to find a key in which you have a two-octave range.)

But if we believe in isomorphic music, why stop with notation?

We should also have isomorphic theory, Isomorphic scales, isomorphic key/harmony circles, etc.

I think we need to move past an "alphabet" and start naming and notating (and teaching) 

"syllables", "words", rhythmic "feet," "sentences", "paragraphs".

We need to move from orthography to vocabulary to grammar of music.

In sum, I'd like to see the visual pattern of musical discourse mimic the aural patterns of musical perception;

to "see" a visual pattern similar the aural pattern I "hear".

When I play organ bass pedals, I can't easily watch my feet.

I need to "hear" whether I'm striking the correct note.

In pop music, we often use root-fifth patterns in the bass;

I've come to be able to 'hear" the fifth (and it's inverse the fourth) in various keys and patterns:

1 5 1 (up or down); 1 4 5 1; 1 2 5 1; etc.

As I often need to transpose into a key I can sing, most of my sheet music is marked up with Roman numerals where the chords were printed ,

and solfedge syllables where the notes were printed. And in some cases, I reprint the whole thing in "poetry" format,

with phrases on separate lines and successive lines lined up to the same beat.

As I often say, "Music is poetry; why print it as prose?"

Bottom line: music is patterns, Music notation should be about patterns.  Music theory should be about patterns.

We are "hearing" diamonds but "drawing" coal.

Joe Austin

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[Stephen Lafleur]

I applaud efforts to find better solfège progressions, and firmly believe there can be a best.
I wish that the naturals of classical solfège could be preserved, and sometimes they are, but I don't suppose they would be the best, either.

Just as we should not assume the default QWERTY keyboard is the best, most comfortable arrangement - it's not, I use and love the Colemak layout - we shouldn't assume that the default solfège progression is the ultimate in the most important sense of vocal comfort.

[]sf  bo--da--fe--ho--ja--le--no--pa--re--to--va--xe--zo--

This seems to be a logical progression. I don't doubt this is much better than the classical.
It is good that any step could be notated with just one letter, though unfortunately necessary that that pool of letters conflicts with that from the classical.
If I notated this solfège more like I notate pitch in my own notation, I would make use of case to denote either SHARPS among naturals or flats among NATURALS, according to the classical note names.

Here is the classical solfège.
[]sf  do--DI--re--RI--mi--fa--FI--so--SI--la--LI--ti--do
[]SF  DO--ra--RE--me--MI--FA--se--SO--le--LA--te--TI--DO

Here is the solfège in discussion:
[]sf  bo--DA--fe--HO--ja--le--NO--pa--SI--to--VA--xe--zo--
[]SF  BO--da--FE--ho--JA--LE--no--PA--re--TO--va--XE--ZO--

There's no real difference necessarily implied by the case; it only highlights those chromatic notes. We could display the same in reverse case without contradiction.
But if one considers only the first letters of the classical: d r m f s l t d, they can be indicative of even chromatic pitches using case.
I could notate every key on a piano in solfège just as I would notate scientific pitch.

I believe this is correct, apart from the omission for space.
[]sf  ---------------------------l0-L0-t0-||d1-D1-r1-R1-m1-f1-F1-s1-S1-l1-L1-t1-||d2-D2-r2-R2-m2-f2-F2-s2-S2-l2-L2-t2-||d3...||d8
[]SF  ---------------------------L0-t0-T0-||D1-r1-R1-m1-M1-F1-s1-S1-l1-L1-t1-T1-||D2-r2-R2-m2-M2-F2-s2-S2-l2-L2-t2-T2-||D3...||D8

[]sc  ---------------------------a0-A0-b0-||c1-C1-d1-D1-e1-f1-F1-g1-G1-a1-A1-b1-||c2-C2-d2-D2-e2-f2-F2-g2-G2-a2-A2-b2-||c3...||c8
[]SC  ---------------------------A0-b0-B0-||C1-d1-D1-e1-E1-F1-g1-G1-a1-A1-b1-B1-||C2-d2-D2-e2-E2-F2-g2-G2-a2-A2-b2-B2-||C3...||C8

Unlike before, case does make an important distinction here, and we must declare whether our natural notes are lowercase, perhaps interspersed with SHARPS or UPPERCASE, perhaps interspersed with lowercase flats. I convey the case of a natural note with the case of the type square sc/SC at the start of the line.

Traditional notation draws pitch information from linear location along a staff. So do all the notations listed on http://musicnotation.org/ and http://musicnotation.org/systems/. A notation that does not do so must simply state the pitch.

I believe that when pitch is being stated, there is an obvious and very comfortably available distinction to make in case. I make use of it in my notation, and I feel it contributes to the fluidity of the composition of my notation. Though unless I were deliberately using scientific pitch, I would place my c0/C0 at middle C instead.

[Joseph Austin]

Stephen,

I agree that you can use upper/lower case to distinguish black notes from white notes,

but not to distinguish sharps from flats.

You couldn't use this scheme to notate music with a full range of accidentals,

e.g. a flat in a sharp key or a sharp in a flat key--you would be forced to notate the enharmonic,

which could disrupt the harmonic or melodic analysis.

-----

Now regarding "natural" notes--

There is nothing "unnatural"  about so-called sharps and flats.

In terms of the Circle of Fifths, for example, B E A D G flat and F C sharp

fall "naturally" in the cycle of fifths even on the traditional 15-named note circle,

and the rest occur equally naturally if you extend the circle to include the remaining notes of the scales:

Fb Cb Gb Db Ab Eb Bb F C G D A E B F# C$ G# D# A# E# B#

What I notice from this exercise is that Bb, for example, has nothing to do with B, but is instead a "close relative" of F and Eb.

That is, in spite of the name, B-flat is not a harmonic interval from B.

Indeed, had we named the notes alphabetically around the circle, instead of alphabetically according to the A (relative) minor scale,

we would have a much more "isometric" scheme.

Furthermore, there is nothing "natural" about the diatonic scale sequence.

w w h w w w h natural?  What should we consider "natural" about an  anomaly after the third and seventh scale position?

Moreover, these anomalies are obscured by the naming system!

I prefer to write the scale in thirds, thus:   D F A C E G B D, giving the principal minor and major triads in sequence.

In fact, this is actually two interlaced circles of fifths, which we might distinguish with lower and upper case thus:

,,,  Gb bb Db f  Ab c Eb g Bb d F a C e G b D f# A c# E g# B ,,, 

What I observe from this is that the "scale" "naturally" extends to include the dominant and minors if you expand from 7 to 12 notes!

So what I'm saying is: I think we are better off getting rid of 'diatonic" notation and moving to "12TET" notation,

and naming things based on a sequence of twelve (or factors of twelve such as three by four) rather than a sequence of seven.

Joe Austin

[Stephen Lafleur]

Hey Joseph; of the five typical accidentals - double flat, flat, natural, sharp, double sharp - each of my notations can notate four.
Music making the use of simultaneous sharps and flats is rare; music using both simultaneously in the same part even more so.
Sharps-and-naturals as in my sharpened system or naturals-and-flats as in my FLATTENED system are sufficient for most music.
That includes all my own music, making it suitable for all my purposes.

If both sharps and flats should be needed, as in a transcription of classical music - thankfully, my notation is in parallel.
A FLATTENED line can simply be made adjacent to a sharpened line.
A hole in a sharpened line where a flat note ought to be is filled by a flat note directly parallel to (above) it in a FLATTENED line.
The discriminating characteristic being the case in which a natural note is displayed, the same case is used in the type square at the start.
Here are all the accidentals of all the Cs within four octaves of middle C - middle C is notated equivalently as C0 or 0C, whichever is preferred at any time.

[]pi  $C--#C--@C--!C--)C--C)--C!--C@--C#--C$-- {double sharp - sharpened}
[]PI  $C--#C--@C--!C--)C--C)--C!--C@--C#--C$-- {double sharp - FLATTENED}
[]pi  4C--3C--2C--1C--0C--C0--C1--C2--C3--C4-- {sharp - sharpened}
[]PI  ---------------------------------------- {sharp - FLATTENED - not notated; use an adjacent sharpened pitch line}
[]pi  4c--3c--2c--1c--0c--c0--c1--c2--c3--c4-- {natural - sharpened}
[]PI  4C--3C--2C--1C--0C--C0--C1--C2--C3--C4-- {natural - FLATTENED}
[]pi  ---------------------------------------- {flat - sharpened - not notated; use an adjacent FLATTENED pitch line}
[]PI  4c--3c--2c--1c--0c--c0--c1--c2--c3--c4-- {flat - FLATTENED}
[]pi  $c--#c--@c--!c--)c--c)--c!--c@--c#--c$-- {double flat - sharpened}
[]PI  $c--#c--@c--!c--)c--c)--c!--c@--c#--c$-- {double flat - FLATTENED}

This system is designed for intuitivity.
A musician who sees a piece comprised of Gs, Ds, As, Bs, Cs, Es, and some lowercase f ought to easily recognize the key of G and the pattern by which it is encoded.
If he sees a chromatic scale above middle C - he sees that each note is accompanied by a zero and figures these notes are not proceeding from the C off the bottom end of a piano, but the more sensible default C - middle C.

Scientific pitch notation is more suited for texts on harmony, rather than actual, practical music.
It has as its zeroth C the C too low to appear on most pianos...
Yet, simply by switching to []sc or []SC type lines, and adding four to the numbers, my notation is compatible with a center around this abysmal C.
Not quite scientific pitch, but congruent to it - I call it squared scientific pitch. It does not make use of the reversal for notes flatter than middle C, either.


The real appeal of my notation is its renderlessness - it does not require a computer to process it to be clearly readable -
and the speed of composition, which is directly consequential from the parallel nature not found in ANY other notation.
It will always be slower to notate pitch THEN rhythm THEN pitch THEN rhythm THEN pitch than it would be to notate [large swathes of] the entire pitch... then the entire rhythm, as my format facilitates.

Using case to describe accidentals enables me to describe with sharps-and-flats or flats-and-naturals every note on a piano with only two characters.
Uppercase numbers, as I call them - ) ! @ # $ % ^ & * ( - enable double sharps and flats with no reason to exclude either from either of my notations.
Expanding anything into three characters makes a parallel format much harder to achieve, so we do not. One character cannot represent a whole piano.
Two characters is necessary for rhythm anyway, else "dddd" is ambiguous between four notes and one note sustained to four times the length.
Two characters - a square - is the perfect precision for a parallel format.
(all the keys on the keyboard)*(all the keys on the keyboard) ought to be enough for virtually all needs my format may be extended to - it being a perfectly extensible format.



But enough about my notation.

Western music relies on a set of 12 notes and their octaves.
Of these twelve, seven are in a highlight of a diatonic system.
Of these seven, five are in a highlight of a pentatonic system.

Sheet music represents all 12 notes but with a highlight on seven that renders the other five seemingly derivative of those seven.
The focus of nearly all the notations listed on musicnotation.org, it seems, are precisely unchanged rhythm notations from sheet music but altered as to highlight different notes, or none at all, granting each note an equal status.
In any case, most music is diatonic, or diatonic with minor exceptions, and best notated with a system biased toward the diatonic, if one supportive of all twelve tones.
The fellows advanced enough in composition to write fully chromatic music ought to be good enough musicians not to mind any perceived subordination of C sharp to C.
I am skeptical of the gain to be had by granting every note an equal status at the expense of abolishing the [comfortable analogy with the] usual C, D, E, F, G, A, B notation most musicians know.
And furthermore am I skeptical of the use of such a format by anyone other than the creators.
That system of names for notes is not going anywhere any time soon.
I am writing texts on harmony - with my format it is a breeze - and I will soon produce a defense of the heptatonic.

Though if a 12-tone system ever does catch my attention fully enough, I'll have no qualms about including it in my inconsequentially-extensible format.

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[Joseph Austin]

Stephen,

I sing in an amateur community chorus with a repertoire of pop standards. 

An unscientific sampling of the music in our current program reveals two-thirds of the numbers have both sharps and flats (and accidental naturals) in the same score.

In my view, the "natural" notes are "un-natural," as the scale actually breaks into two sections from distinct whole-tone scales,

e.g. CDE, FGAB

Or from an earlier perspective, it is formed from three "hexachords" (which adds another (un-natural?) pitch later re-introduced into the system thru jazz),

e.g. ,  F G ABb C D,  C D EF G A,  G A BC D E.

My latest "thought experiment" is to score all music on a continuous staff of lines and spaces, each corresponding to one of the two whole-tone scales.  Of course, without further demarcation, the "key" of the piece would be ambiguous, similarly to finding a specific pitch on a 6-6 keyboard with alternating white and black notes.

But that's the point!  The key is irrelevant (to a singer, anyway). 

Or yes, it is relevant to the extent that I must fit the tune into my range,

whatever "key" that happens to be.  Now if I were Julie Andrews or Maria Carey, I might not care,

but with a comfortable range around one and a half octaves, it matters to me.

 

Although it might help to highlight the "do" line or space, it's probably not necessary.

I'd probably recognize the 3-4 Ior 2-5 in minor) split between lines and spaces 

(or just look at the last chord)

and find "do" without ever knowing the nominal pitch of any note!

Actually, I agree with you to the extent that solfedge (relative do) notation is more useful for understanding musical structure than absolute pitch notation. But the traditional linear representation of the non-linear seven-pitch diatonic scale destroys the visual structure that relative-do exposes.

So I prefer to embed the 7-pitch diatonic scale in a 12-position "isomorphic" representation.

Joe Austin

[Bob Stuckey]

Michael,

The famed cycle of fifths clock has arrived. I put it together and hung it up but found the tick rather annoying so changed the mechanism for a similar clock I have with a tick-free mechanism showing the zodiac constellations.

We can attribute the clock face and the zodiac to the Babylonian counting system favouring 12 but who can we attribute the cycle of fifths to?  Perhaps the lazy lutenists of the 16th century who coudn't be bothered to shift their gut frets around to get a just major third (5:4) in every situation. Their compromise brings the slightly flattened 5th (2 cents) back round in 12 steps.  The 12 of this cycle and the 12 of the Babylonian maths must be a coincidence...or is it?

Bob

Bob

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[Michael Johnston]

> I put it together and hung
> it up but found the tick rather annoying so changed the mechanism for a
> similar clock I have with a tick-free mechanism showing the zodiac
> constellations.

Photos, please.

Cheers!
Michael
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[Joseph Austin]

Bob,

My working hypothesis is:

People start doing things a certain way for good reasons;

Then they keep doing them that way because they've "always" done it that way,

(or because "everybody else" does it that way)

long after the original "good" reasons no longer apply, or have even been contradicted.

What mystifies me is:

All the harmony lessons I've read say progression by "parallel fifths" is "bad".

Yet progression by "circle of fifths" is "good".

So why does the circle of fifths "work"?

Why do "thirds" work "better" than fifths (alone), when fifths have smaller integer intervals?

Or more generally, why does harmony work? Why do harmonic progressions sound good?

Why can our ears excuse the minor "errors" in the ET scale and progressions,

but not excuse the "wolf"?

Joe Austin

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[Bob Stuckey]

Michael,

This is the zodiac clock which is based on a chart made by Honter . I lifted it from this page in a book, stuck it on a bit of card and added the clock mechanism which is easy to buy separately on line. I've attached the the clock face for those tempted to make one.

The hour hand circles once through the zodiac for every twelve circlings of the minute hand in evoking the movements of the sun and moon, and perhaps why the use of the number bases 12 and 60 were attractive to the Babylonians and remain in our time measurement.

But I still can't find any causal or mathematical link with the cycle of fifths...

The book BTW is The Mapping of the Heavens by Peter Whitfield The British Library 1995

Bob

[Paul]

On 06/28/2017 07:23 AM, Bob Stuckey wrote:

Here an exercise to train the singing of intervals which can be used  to test out any nomenclature. For the time being I will use movable solfa with the the Parncutt/Stuckey chromatic additions va wu    xe yu ze . Ive put in the vowels for these less familiar ones but assume that most people know the vowels of d r m f s l t. Comma means in the lower octave and the apostrophy in the higher as in the John Curwen tradition.

                             Vocaltease                                                                         Traditonal

Con molto espresione. Sing to any syllable

The Diatonic Version

d r d t, l, d m f d s, f, d s l d m, r, d t d' d d, r, d t l d m, f, d s f d s, l, d m r d t, d

Hi Bob,  Nice exercise!  I've created a Clairnote + TN version (in LilyPond, attached) to help me give it a try on trumpet, in a few common keys. 

Cheers,
-Paul

[Bob Stuckey]

Thanks, Paul,

This is a nice illustration of how Clairnote works.

I forgot to put a time signature on the Vocaltease.  I  also thought of it as a 3/4 bar but with a single note pick-up placing the "novelty" on the first beat of the bar. However by happy accident the pattern has gained another interpretation.

Bob

--

[John Keller]

Nice exercise! I sang it easily in tonic solfa, because the intervals are obvious in ClairNote. Has anyone tried it with a chromatic fixed doh solfege? If so, which systems tried, and how successful?

John Keller

Express Stave

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[Paul]

On 07/13/2017 08:04 PM, Bob Stuckey wrote:

> I forgot to put a time signature on the Vocaltease. I also thought of
> it as a 3/4 bar but with a single note pick-up placing the "novelty"
> on the first beat of the bar. However by happy accident the pattern
> has gained another interpretation.

Ah, I think I like your interpretation better! (attached)

-Paul

[Paul]

Oops, this version has better formatting, with each key starting with a
new system.

-Paul

[Bob Stuckey]

Paul,

Its impressive that you can tweak the layout easily.

For comparison here's another version in movable solfa, still at the hand writing stage, I'm afraid.

As its such a symmetrical piece I thought it might look clearest using the alto clef in which

the middle line is middle C The stave is almost standard except that the lines are a bit thicker

and in grey so that characters can stand out more clearly. There are also continuous dashed lines

instead of leger lines (which make characters look messy).

The minor scale got a look in this time.

The major and minor examples follow the Kodaly tradition of writing solfa on the stave pretty closely.

The chromatic version with the addition of the VaWu syllables is still based on the diatonic stave

and one is obliged to choose a diatonic spelling (eg. shall we regard this xe as a flattened so or a

sharpened fa?) but I think the character grabs our attention more than where it is sitting.

Bob

[John Keller]

Hi all,

I have uploaded the first book of my piano beginners method, The Keyboard Express, book A.

It is designed to be used for kids from 5 years old.

It uses Express Stave as a useful introduction to notation but transfers well into Traditional Notation.

A separate PDF file contains all the keyboard guides that are used along with the method.

Printing this PDF at 100% scaling should align exactly with the standard piano keyboard.

Please have a look and give me feedback. 

It is not yet complete regarding teachers accompaniments.

I have about five more books in the pipeline (500 or so pages). 

Deciding the order of pieces and concepts is what I find the hardest thing.

Cheers!

John Keller

Express Stave

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

Click on:

• Beginner Piano Method “The Keyboard Express” book A
• All Keyboard Guides

[Joseph Austin]

Bob I like the Alto staff version! And the bar lines clarify the progression of interval sizes.

Joe Austin

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[Paul]

On 07/20/2017 09:07 PM, Bob Stuckey wrote:

Its impressive that you can tweak the layout easily.

Yeah, LilyPond (once you get past the learning curve) is nice and powerful for this kind of thing.  You can enter a melody once, store it in a variable, and then transpose it to different keys.  Modify the melody and the changes take effect everywhere. 

For completeness, I'm attaching the other possible variation, with the root note on the 3rd beat of each measure. 

For comparison here's another version in movable solfa, still at the hand writing stage, I'm afraid.

As its such a symmetrical piece I thought it might look clearest using the alto clef in which

the middle line is middle C The stave is almost standard except that the lines are a bit thicker

and in grey so that characters can stand out more clearly. There are also continuous dashed lines

instead of leger lines (which make characters look messy).

Looks good!  Alto cIef makes sense, and I like the grey lines and how they allow the notes to stand out.  Dashed lines instead of ledgers is an interesting approach. 

The minor scale got a look in this time.

The major and minor examples follow the Kodaly tradition of writing solfa on the stave pretty closely.

The chromatic version with the addition of the VaWu syllables is still based on the diatonic stave

and one is obliged to choose a diatonic spelling (eg. shall we regard this xe as a flattened so or a

sharpened fa?) but I think the character grabs our attention more than where it is sitting.

Having the syllables as note heads does make it easier to sing them.  Although this is still a pretty challenging exercise.  Are you familiar with the Kodaly approach?  I know a little about it and would like to know more if you know any good resources.

Cheers,
-Paul

[Paul]

Hi John,

Wow!  I'm impressed.  Congrats, there is a lot of work in this material.  Will try to take a closer look when I get a chance.

Cheers,
-Paul

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[John Keller]

Hi all,

Joseph Austin was kind enough to review my piano beginners method in great detail.

He also agreed I could forward his comments and my responses to the forum.

Here is the link to my book again:

 http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

• Beginner Piano Method “The Keyboard Express” book A
• All Keyboard Guides

I would also be interested in other peoples comments.

Cheers,

John Keller

Begin forwarded message:

From: John Keller <jko...@bigpond.net.au>

Subject: Re: [MNP] The Keyboard Express Piano Beginners Method

Date: 26 July 2017 12:32:41 am AEST

To: Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com>

Thanks heaps, Joe!

Comments interspersed below.

On 25 Jul 2017, at 6:26 am, Joseph Austin <drtec...@gmail.com> wrote:

John,

Here are my comments on Piano Express, FWIW.

I'm as interested in learning MUSIC as in learning NOTATION,

so many of my comments reflect a bias toward incorporating MUSIC theroy into the lessons.

Since the pages aren't numbered, for review and reference, 

I will use Adobe Reader numbering, Page 1 = title page.

I've  also included an abbreviated page title for most pages.

I'm going thru this in portrait orientation, so directional comments refer to that way.

p 5: Middle Group

OK I'm confused: are these supposed to be played in sequence or all at once?

I'd assume all at once.

RULE (?)  

Notes on the same level, or touching, are played at the SAME TIME

Otherwise, notes or groups of notes are played in order, top to bottom.

Yes

Teacher chants “Middle group of two", then student plays the twos together and yells “splash”.

It can be done in a rhythmic way.

TOP TO BOTTOM = WHEN

LEFT TO RIGHT = WHICH

Top to bottom to start, so the student just follows the notes left and right to play the keys.

5,6: did you want to show the fingering BEFORE the "splash”?
No they can bang with the palm if they want to. Teacher will advise of fingers.

p 6 twos and threes

So here we introuduce  rhythm.

Yes. the stems give the clue to play the twos three times etc.

You don’t explain to a 5yo. just chant or show, and student copies.

   I stamp my feet to indicate a steady beat.

ADD NOTE: this exercise may sound weird; for now, we are just concentrating on the rhythm.

Kids happily bang, they don’t care that it is not beautiful.

Suggested INTRODUCTION TO RHYTHM:

At an even "beat", strike the keyboard three timees, then skip a time:

left (two notes) left, left QUItT

right(three notes) right, right, QUIET

Right (three notes) right, left (two notes) QUIET

left (two notes) left, left (three notes) QUIET

Yes

This does not need to be stated. Teacher will understand this I think. Maybe Im wrong.

in "measure" three and four, make sure there is the same time between striking steps two and three as between striking steps one and two

--you must MOVE your hand while lifting it.

And the QUIET should last as long as if you were striking a note.

Yes. This is all done by the instruction that teacher does each bar first and student copies.

7, Finger walking: 

Does the fingering matter?

They walk with 2 and 3 naturally I have always found. Again, teacher shows.

Music extra: 

As you go up and down, listen for the "scale" tune.

do re mi fa so la ti do

Try starting on differnte while keys.

Does the "scale" sound the same no mater where you start?

Actually, there is only one starting place that sounds correct.

Let's see why

We don’t talk about up and down. We haven’t even defined high and low yet. The instructions say walk along this way etc.

Kids think “high” would mean loud. "Turn the sound up". They think high sounds would be called “little" (little cartoon characters speak with this kind of voice.)They won’t have a major scale idea of home notes yet. We are just giving them the experience of listening to all the notes, Having discipline to play every white key, strengthen finger muscles, get the feel of legato walking action.

 

Notice that MOST of the white keys have BLACK keys between them,

but not all. The scale steps betwwen mi and fa, and between ti and do,

do not hava a black key,  The position of the missing "half-steps" determines where the scale sounds "right"

Too soon for these explanations. They have already realised the black keys have gaps between the twos and threes.

Can you think of some songs that contain the scale, or part of it?

[Joy to the WOrds, descending; 

Away in a manger (sol to sol descending, with some repetitions), 

First Noel, full scale ascending, partial descendigng];

We don’t know what songs they might know, they certainly won’t be aware of scalar passages.

9 walk along

OK, here you get to the point of my p6 comments.

Grinding my ax: I would start talking about rhythm and music,

not just what keys to press.  

First thing is a steady beat, this is what we are achieving. The footsteps indicate that and you gradually get the playing to keep in time. Don’t explain, just do it. Coordinating the chanting with playing or clapping may take a while with young kids.

10 ONE is my thumb

I know I'm trying to climb up the down staircase when the bell rings,

but at least in the early lessons, I would use LINEAR time notation,

i.e. quarter notes should be twice as far apart as eighth notes.

It won’t matter with kids. Main consideration is fitting it on the page.

12 Fingers 1 2 3

LH in G: so fa mi; 

RH in F: la ti do?

Correct! But the kid doesnt know all this.

You've got a challenge teaching reading by D L  symmetry on a keyboard designed for C, 

since the scale isn't really symmetric!

Major scales and keynotes etc are way down the line from here.

16 up and down: 

You SAY play black keys here, but the note shape/spacing doesn't match the 3-2-3-2 sequence of black keys!

Everywhere else you seem to use your notation consistently.

True. It doesn’t have reference lines, but its only an illustration of going up and down. When you turn the book to landscape orientation it illustrates that going downward can be more tricky than upward.

18 I Spy With my Eye

Here I get LOST.

Well the kid can play and sing the song, and secretly choose an object and say the starting letter. The teacher has to guess what they were thinking of. Kids love this game. It helps them learn letters that they might not yet know, and the beginnings of spelling and reading words. My student Maya used to want to play this game for the whole lesson because she worked out she could always trick me. If she said F and I said Is it frog?, she would say no! its Firstspace. She started before kindergarden, so we had to gradually learn to recognise the letters.

Lots of clutter; what's the point?

An eyeball on the I note.

An Iris {"I"} on the J note?

I seem to recall in an earlier version you were making a point about "i" and "j" were pairs because they have dots,

but I think it got lost somewhere along the way.

Its just a game of I spy.

Finger 3 marked--is that the one we should use?

The starting finger. Played with 2 and 3.

MUSIC: 3/4 time is an opportunity to discuss beat and accent.

How does the student achieve the auditory effect of three note groups?

Singing the words give the flow, but I don’t tell them about time signatures yet. I might do an activity where i chant the song and clap on the strong beats, and the kid has to underline the words I clapped on. But this assumes the kid can read or at least follow the words.

19ff Groups of 3 black keys.

you're introducing mome real tunes here.  Discuss music!

For example: compare H L K to K L H.

Or H K L L K H to K L H H L K.

We have the beginning of “CADENCE”

Kids like doing, not discussing.

19,21  

Seems that the descending notes are not spaced far enough apart--they overlap into each other's "time" space.  

I don't think it's an optical illusion, but even if it were, they shouldn't even appear to overlap.

Check other pages as well.

The kid won’t worry about this!

20 

Music. e.g. Play it "upside-down" vs the normal way.  Which sounds more "complete”?

I could try this but I feel that the kid won’t have a preference yet. Not enough musical experience of tunes. This is what the easy playing method is gradually giving them.

21 

Music:  what if we reversed the order of the second half, laying in order: LH RH RH LH?

22

Music: can the student hear the "beat", the "accent" on the first note of each group of three?

Hear the tension / resolution contrast between the first and second phrase?

Hear the effect of the break to highlight the contrast of the two phrases?

All these thing are subliminal yet. Too early for academic discussions!

23 Link Lines

Again, I'd prefer linear time.

Music: it would be "Hot Cross Buns",

if you change M3 to quavers.

Yes. I don’t know whether they know hot cross buns. 

My 6yo student today only knew the other tune, (s s, d) 

24:

Music: variation in rhythm pattern! Nice.

25;

MUSIC: To me, this doesn't sound as "musical" as the earlier tunes. Why?

"symmety breaking”?

Needs the accompaniment, which I haven’t done yet.

26: Short and long

Up to here, the white dot on a finger seems to mean finger to use.

But now I assume we need TWO fingers but only one is marked.

I generally only mark the starting finger to get it ready by touching the key to be ready to play.

Sometimes I get them tp write the finger number in a box.

.

Music: GOOD--linear timing!

MUSIC: I don't like this tune.

But it's the "inverse" of the previous.  What makes it less satisfying?

Perhaps: the first measure doesn't establish a clear tonality?

It needs the accompaniment. Starts with IV chord then V ands I.

27 Two Hand

And--the difference between sustain note and rest!

MUSIC: I don't like this tune either--inverted cadence at the end?

With accomp, the last bar is I64, V7, I

28 Skip notes

Music:  Even for exercises, 

I just don't like the notion of playing "random notes".  Even exercises can make musical sense.

Maybe it works as a section from a larger song,…

Not random, It is an ok tune.

29 Two Friendy Eyes: 

the purple measure has two notes played at once, right?

Yes

MUSIC: OK, even with the discord,

this sounds musical to me.

31 Threes and Twos.  

OK, this one is not supposed to sound harmonious, just moving hands.

MUSIC: But FIVE measures?

What kind of rhythm is that?

Not rhythmic, its just a speed test to play the groups. Kids like trying to improve their PB time.

The coloured bars just help their eyes keep the place. 

32 more 3 and 2

The way you have the staff symmetric,

its hard to say whether I'm cueing from the note shape, or just from the central position, or just from the 2 vs 3 note groups.

Hopefully from the top, middle and bottom groups.

MUSIC: It's nice to be back with tunes!

32 extra. YOu're laying groundwork for Pentaonic music on the black keys, but I'm wondering for that purpose, have you chosen the wrong symmmetry point? In my (limited) experience, the low note is more likely "so" on "I", 

[Amazing Grace, Old MacDonald, Farmer in the Dell],

arguing for L as the symmetry point.

OK, agreed it's not at the center of the keyboard. 

Just another example of the conflict between the music design and the instrument design. 

Yes these songs you suggest could go on the white keys pentatonic, later. 

But I have Old MacD in book 2 with a left hand 2note chord in this key.(K)

33 big and small

DUH!  This is teh firt time I noticed that you've bene uning

"big notes" and "small notes" all along! [excpet p 16, which I didn't catch until the second time thru.]

But it's really more "slant" and "straight" than size.

Yes

OK, with "big" and "small" notes you are making the distinction between the two wholetone sequences.

This has profound implications for making scales (3-4 in major, 2-5 in minor) and chords,

and visualizing the distinction between semitones and wholetones, and major and minor thirds.

At some point, the observant student will ask, why are some notes "big" and others "small".

The answer, of course, is that "big" and "small" really have nothing to do with "threes" and "twos",

but those proximities are just a coincidence of the diatonic layout of the white keys.

So, do you really want the student to associate slant/flat with "threes and twos",

[how will this play when you get to the naturals?].  

"Threes" is OK, but "twos" will become "fours" or "evens".

[Now, if you used my modified piano symmetric coloring--F and B grey--

it would always be "twos":  IJ black, FB gray; GA white!]

Preparing the way for later where the naturals will be  3 bigs plus 4 smalls.

---

Musicaly, my ear says we're in "K", so then it would not end on sol.

I'd consider changing the last two notes to H K in the left hand.

This modulates from K to I twice. Chords would be i7, K, L7, i.   i7, K, L7  i. (i =Db)

34 next note

I dnn't unerstand the fingering.

Up to now white dot is fingers used.

Are these just one-finger explorations?

No. just starting note.

35 keyboard guide

The guide is slightly off for my Yamaha organ;

My organ has 160 mm octaves; guide is 165 mm printed at "100%"

and 154 mm printed at my printer default.

I'd suggest including a ruler reference in the graphic

to verify printing accuracy,

and nclude the octave measure in the graphic text so the user can scale to their insrument.

I got "perfect" alignment printing at 97%

Interesting. Maybe the organ is narrower than standard piano.

Maybe it comes out different if paper size is not default A4.

.

35 

What is the point of showing TN only instead of ES?

It is the start of a new strand of solfa notes, which will be expanded later to discover all sorts of theory. For the moment it is just the concept that the guide can be placed on any key to show doh and soh, and later all degrees of both major and minor scales. e.g. we can start ear training sight singing the doh and soh, high and low.

36 Naturals next to 3

Linear time--Nice!

Tritone-Major 47 to 38 resolution--Super Nice!!!

Thanks

 

OK, you have introduced the Tritone and its resolution.

Now would be a great time to introduce the student to harmonic Theory.

Perhaps a companion book?  

Traditionally "theory" booka are really about notation,

and actual "theory" is an afterthought, if included at all.

Too early - a 6 yo just needs to hear these things before we formally explain.

Overall, I like  the way you started with the black keys instead of naturals.

Now you have the two natruals needed to make the diatonic scale in Gb.

Yes

I'm falling in love with ES, especially in vertical staff orientation.

Thats good!

37 notes on this side

So now we discover that just rotatig the page does NOT convert between vertica and horizongal staff.

This makes musical sense only in the horizontal interpretation,

unless I want to read vertical staves right to left.

(Which is an acceptable price to pay,

but I'd rather stick it to th TN holdouts!)

Yes, hopefully the book has been used in horizontal quite a while by now.

38 Taking sides

Linear time; 4 bars to the line;

Musical Poetry! NICE!

I'm not sure what you mean by the shaded area between notes i nthe last to measures:

staccato?  detached?

I don't recall seeing it before (p 36 for e.g.)

Notes played together

42 Merrily

one-hand harmony--nice

MUSIC:

Obviously you are using real musical progressions,

even in these simple exercises.

This presents an excellent opportunity to start discussing

intervals and harmony.

No, harmony gets started in the solfa strand, with Homes (dms)  and Aways (strf) later.

43 single natural

MUSIC: yes, the natural is there, but what use is it?

So far we have the key of "K", which does not include D.

This is in D with neapolitan 6th harmony. 

But I’m not going to explain this to 6yo. Just getting them a little familiar with some less common sounds.

I guess this gets to my sequencing comment about musical sequence

vs. fingering sequence.

[Let me see where you go with this.] 

44 Naturals near twos.

You might mention, 

we've previouslly seen the same B F as "naturals near threes”

Yes its in a piece a bit later.

45 sit in the center

"i" doesn't sit in the center; "D" does :-) 

So does the student!

!! slant notes for group of three !!

black on/touching the line for D-group

white on/touching the line for L-group

Good observation!

Now the 3-2 grouping of naturals would be more evident

if you colored F B gray!

"away notes gray”

Away notes don’t need another identifier.

MUSIC:  You haven't addressed phrasing yet,

but you've stumbled over one of my favorite axes to grind:

Typical of many 3/4 tunes, this starts on what we call an anacrusis.

But the phrase runs for 6 notes, ending on the second count of the second full measure. 

Then the next phrase begins on count 3, a new "anacrusis" if you will.

How do you tell the student to break there?

They don’t have to break, more important that they feel the flow when the words are sung.

This doesn't really become a problem until you get an 8 measure tune;

then where do you break the lines?

I would break after beat 2, and start the next line with a new "anacrusis."  

That's not standard TN, but then neither is ES.

Why stop reforming with pitch, when rhythm needs reform just as much?

Sometimes I break at the phrase point later. I agree with you on this.

46 hi side lo side

"straight notes touching" for two-group

"slant notes touching' for three-group

Yes I might point out that the naturals are further out than the two extras, that is why there are bigs and smalls.

47 copy cats

MUSIC:

OK, you can only put so much on a page, but:

My EAR wants another measure (4 altogether)

My EYE wants linear time, so the counts and bar lines line up.

Then I could play both hands at once

(for a challenge!)

When I have rhythm reading with quavers, I always do it copy cat style, so the student gets the flow.

Basically we just echo one bar at a time, so it doesn’t have to be a continuous piece. The student can choose the colour to do, not in order.

48 lines and spaces

MUSIC: it seems these aren't intended to be played hands together.

True

49

slants on threes; aways on grays

[But "slants" and "flats" doesn't rhyme with 

"threes" and "twos”.]

Cant use the word flat for this.

51-56 transition to TN

I'm skipping this part.

Pity, I think this is brilliant. That the girl says people don’t like moved away notes and they must have a line!

Then the transition from ES to TN via the D line is quite painless. Plus my middle characters sneak in.

58 Finger Exercise

So, your challenge is: how to introduce the two remaining natural/"small" notes: G A.

You are opting for continuation from the three "large" note notes in each direction.

Yes

Another approach would be "twos" around L,

Yes I do this a bit later.

exploiting the symmetry of keys K and C.

[which would be more apparent if F and B were colored gray.]

In this case, the F and B would be "away" notes from both D and L.

We have two sets of three slant notes, and three sets of two flat notes,

black, white, and "gray", the "gray" notes equally "black" and "white," 

as they are the diatonic completion of both the C and L pentatonic scales.

You mean C and K.

Speaking of pentatonic scales, your sequence seems to obscure the pentatonic scale,

and the emergence of the diatonic scale from it.

I might consider a sequence like this:

Threes in ebony, then ivory [i.e.  to distinguish key color from note color]

Twos in ebony, then ivory, each completing the pentatonic scale.

At this point, we can introduce pentatonic songs,

played in both ebony and ivory.

Twos in "gray" [ivory B F], as "aways" from either ebony or ivory,

completing the diatonic scales in C and K.

Now we can introduce the tritone, the I V7 I, and diatonic songs,

played in both ebony and ivory.

Yes, but my aim is just to get them feeling their way round the keyboard and playing from notation easily. Theory of how the music works is like teaching grammar to a 6yo.

At this point the student can read all the notes, and music in two keys.

What the student doesn't realize, s/he can also read music in ANY key,

and the scales and chords will have similar patterns in slant and flat note in ALL keys,

just different color combinations and different staff symmetry points.

Focus on the slant/flat sequence instead of color may help dispell the myster of various keys.

Yes but I have found in practice, too much mixing of the naturals and the extras confuses the kids at this stage. 

So I have been careful to keep away from too much mixing.

59 double

 !@#$%^&*  I keep trying to play the black notes on the ebony keys!

I need to engage in NEGATIVE thinking! :-)

Exactly! The trick is for the teacher to point to the keyboard diagram with the notes on it, at the bottom of the page at first.

60

my ES mantra

ebony white and ivory black

tri-angle; four-square;

gray away.

Nice!

At this point, I've played thru the remaining ES slides with no significant new insights.

In spite of my earlier misgivings, I've now concluded that 3-2 grouping IS the way to approach ES.

Thanks

Of course, I'm accustomed to coloring, or at least imaging, F B gray,

so the keyboard has 3-2 symmetry in both black and white,

and consciousness of the two whole-tone scales, one with two groups of three,

the other with three groups of two (where the tritone "pair" are not neighbors).

As for TN, I will have nothing to say about the ES-TN transition,

as I am of the opinion the proper approach to TN is to abandon it.

Haha. Im hoping to convince traditional teachers to use my book so I can’t be too critical of TN.

In that vein, I'm trying to recast "music theory" into dozenal ET, iso-morphic staff representation,

and would encourage others to take that approach,

rather that persisting in the "traditional" notation / nomenclature / theory.

I believe that, especially for young people who are enocuntering music notation for the first time,

this is preferable to trying for a forced compatability between TN and AN.

I think I have most of the theory covered.

What next?  I would suppose, after the student has seen all twelve notes, it would be useful for the student to explore patterns--patterns in the notes, the staff, the keyboard--and devise a personal mnemonic for recognizing the note-key association. 

You've certainly had more experience teacing kids than I've had.

Do you find that learning to "read" in this abstract way

helps them when they get to playing "real" music?

For example, do they avoid "black key phobia"? 

Are they equaly facile in all keys?

Eventually, but Id have to have thousands of students to get statistics.

But my over-arching question is: does this help them learn MUSIC?

Analogy: when I was a kid, I learned to read and recite, even memorize, prayers in Latin.

But I didn't understand Latin.  I fear it's the same with music: I learned to play notes from symbols on a page, but I didn't understand "music."  I didn't understand repetition and variation, tension / release, cadences and progressions, rhythm and form. In short, I could "play" the score but I couldn't play the "music"; and I certainly couldn't write music or even "read" it intelligently.

I make a big deal about how the music is arranged on the page (linear time,

line breaks at phrases vs. bars) because I think the visual form facilitates understanding the "poetic" structure of the music. And a piece of music certainly has more "structure" than just the sequence of notes.

Yes, But I think the starting position is to get proficient in playing from notation easily. Then we can start understanding the theory. But in the past students could write harmony exercises but could not play them.

John, 

Don't take any critical comments personally. 

No, no worries.

Overall I'm impressed with ES, and commend you for the effort you have put into it,

and especially for taking it to the next step of incorporating it into a method.  I think any notational improvement that eases the entry of young people into music is valuable.

I wish you success with your books.

Thanks for all the time you took to consider and comment. Very grateful! 

Cheers, 

John

Joe Austin

[John Keller]

I am reposting this because the colour coding in the previous version didn’t come out correctly.

Hopefully in this version it is easier to follow the conversation between Joe (green text) and me (blue text).

Once again the link is:

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

• Beginner Piano Method “The Keyboard Express” book A
• All Keyboard Guides

JK

Begin forwarded message:

you're introducing some real tunes here.  Discuss music!

Sometimes I get them to write the finger number in a box.

This modulates from K to I twice. Chords would be i7, Jm, L7, i.   i7, K, L7  i. (i =Db)

You've certainly had more experience teaching kids than I've had.

Do you find that learning to "read" in this abstract way

helps them when they get to playing "real" music?

For example, do they avoid "black key phobia"? 

Are they equaly facile in all keys?

Eventually, but Id have to have thousands of students to get statistics.

But my over-arching question is: does this help them learn MUSIC?

Analogy: when I was a kid, I learned to read and recite, even memorize, prayers in Latin.

But I didn't understand Latin.  I fear it's the same with music: I learned to play notes from symbols on a page, but I didn't understand "music."  I didn't understand repetition and variation, tension / release, cadences and progressions, rhythm and form. In short, I could "play" the score but I couldn't play the "music"; and I certainly couldn't write music or even "read" it intelligently.

I make a big deal about how the music is arranged on the page (linear time,

line breaks at phrases vs. bars) because I think the visual form facilitates understanding the "poetic" structure of the music. And a piece of music certainly has more "structure" than just the sequence of notes.

Yes, But I think the starting position is to get proficient in playing from notation easily. Then we can start understanding the theory. But in the past students could write harmony exercises but could not play them.

John, 

Don't take any critical comments personally. 

No, no worries.

Overall I'm impressed with ES, and commend you for the effort you have put into it,

and especially for taking it to the next step of incorporating it into a method.  I think any notational improvement that eases the entry of young people into music is valuable.

I wish you success with your books.

Thanks for all the time you took to consider and comment. Very grateful! 

Cheers, 

John

Joe Austin

[Joseph Austin]

John,

Inspired by your book, I took a new look at ES.

I have a lilypoind-ES copy of Twinkle Twinkle Litter Star (which I thought I got from the MNP website but I can't seem to find it anymore.)

It's scored in C.

When playing from my printout, with my aging eyesight, I had a hard time distinguishing F from E in the middle range,

measure 21,  because there is no ledger line below the E.

I'm thinking it would be useful to include the ledger line whenever a note in the range C-E is printed in the middle area,

or above or below the two printed staves.

I seem to recall a discussion of this some while back.

To my way of thinking,

there are five-note groups around each of the "symmetry" lines, on or touching the line,

and the two "away" notes B and F not touching either line

So any note "on or touching" a line needs a line to touch, a ledger line if necessary.

Joe Austin

[John Keller]

Joe,

The E should have a leger line below, as you thought.

I don’t know where you got the ES in Lilypond. 

I gave up trying to perfect the method a while back as it works ok in Finale.

At some stage in the future I might want to get a .ly method going, but I will need help.

Look at any of the scores on my wiki to check out the ES properties.

Thanks for your encouragement.

Cheers, 

John 

[John Keller]

Hi all,

I have updated my beginners piano book.

I added 4 more pages, and have put in some of the teachers accompaniments.

I will keep on updating periodically.

Check it out and give me your feedback, thanks.

Cheers,

John

http://musicnotation.org/wiki/notation-systems/express-stave-by-john-keller/

[John Keller]

I would like to report on one of my students, Jerry, who is 11 and who I have taught for 4 years.

Last year he did his first piano exam, Preliminary, and got A+. 

This year he has learned a new piece every two weeks or so, up to about 2nd grade level.

He complained to me a few months ago that some other kid in his class was up to 3rd grade piano.

I told him he was probably better at learning pieces, and we could try a grade 3 piece.

We chose an arrangement of Mozart G minor symphony. He played it pretty well after one week learning it at home.

And a couple of others out of the book I lent him.

He reads both TN and ES quite fluently.

Today we looked at my ES Wiki page on my iPad and dialled up Fur Elise.

He sight read it all in the lesson. Then I suggested Turkish Rondo. The octave sections were too hard for his hand size. 

But the F# minor RH section flowed quite well with him folding fingers over thumb quite naturally and easily.

I then suggested Fantasie-Impromptu, and was amazed that he could play the RH passages with the same ease, 

folding fingers over thumb and thumb under naturally with hardly any instruction. (We worked on only one bar together.)

This is the result of teaching black keys first in my beginners method.

We will see how he goes in the next lesson. We had an hour today as the next kid was away.

It is very exciting to see good results with a lot of my students, but Jerry is quite exceptional.

Cheers,

John. 

[Joseph Austin]

John, 

Could you please identify where the changes are?

Joe Austiin

[John Keller]

Joe,

The added pages are p74 and pp80 - 82. They are all TN related, showing my characters for the middle alphabet.

The pages with teachers accompaniments added, are mostly near the start. Still a lot more accomps to do.

Some changes in layouts e.g. p22.

Cheers,

John

[Joseph Austin]

I stumbled across this website, that has various "circle" representations, in Dozenal nomenclature.

These include my favorite, a Tonnetz version, 

which I believe is more useful than just the "circle of fifths",

even if it doesn't make as pretty a clock!

Joe Austin

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Music_diagrams_with_duodecimal_signs

By Watchduck (a.k.a. Tilman Piesk) - Own work, CC0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=34009426

.

On Jun 6, 2017, at 5:36 PM, Michael Johnston <mic...@michaelsmusicservice.com> wrote:

https://viralstyle.com/c/9l8Z2#pid=58&cid=10672109&sid=front
Who wants to make these for ANs? :)

Cheers!
Michael
--
MICHAEL'S  MUSIC  SERVICE   4146 Sheridan Dr, Charlotte, NC 28205
704-567-1066   ** Please call or email us for your organ needs **
http://michaelsmusicservice.com    "Organ Music Is Our Specialty"

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[dominique.waller]

Joe, do you know what commands the colors ? I mean why is 0 on black and 1 on white for example ? The same with blue and red. Thanks, Dominique

Garanti sans virus. www.avast.com

[John Keller]

The first circle is just chromatic. White keys and black keys on the piano . 0 is Ab, what I call Link L. A is 1.

The second circle is 5ths, showing the key signature, sharp keys on the right. Red shows major chords 5ths, and Blue minor chords 5ths.

Cheers,

John

On 28 Aug 2017, at 8:30 pm, dominique.waller <dominiqu...@orange.fr> wrote:

Joe, do you know what commands the colors ? I mean why is 0 on black and 1 on white for example ? The same with blue and red. Thanks, Dominique

 

From: Joseph Austin

Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 11:40 PM

To: musicn...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [MNP] Circle of Fifths Clock

 

I stumbled across this website, that has various "circle" representations, in Dozenal nomenclature.

 

These include my favorite, a Tonnetz version,

which I believe is more useful than just the "circle of fifths",

even if it doesn't make as pretty a clock!

 

Joe Austin

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Music_diagrams_with_duodecimal_signs

By Watchduck (a.k.a. Tilman Piesk) - Own work, CC0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=34009426

<675px-Keys_in_dozenal_clock.svg.png>

.

 

 

 

<800px-Circle_of_fifths,_clock_and_tonnetz.svg.png>

 

 

On Jun 6, 2017, at 5:36 PM, Michael Johnston <mic...@michaelsmusicservice.com> wrote:

 

https://viralstyle.com/c/9l8Z2#pid=58&cid=10672109&sid=front
Who wants to make these for ANs? :)

Cheers!
Michael
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<circlefifthsclock.jpg>

 

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[dominique.waller]

Hi John,

 

Yes you’re right. I had took 0 for C without looking further. Dominique

[Joseph Austin]

Thanks for answering, John.

There is fuller explanation, and several more figures, at the referenced website.

As useful as the Tonnetz is for identifying chords and scales, I'm surprised it isn't featured more prominently in curricula.

And counting off "every other letter" is surely easier than remembering the "circle" of fifths.

The simplest representation of the Tonnetz is the "double circle" of fifths, with the "minor" circle offset by thirds to the "major".

Of course, offsetting minors between majors doesn't make a very good "clock".

Joe Austin

[Paul]

Hi John,

Still hoping to find time to take a closer look at your lesson book...

Cheers,
-Paul