TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons in newsgroup mode

[Lynn McGuire]

Arghhh! TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons
in newsgroup mode. It would not be so bad except the
reply button is first. I sent 2 newsgroup messages
before I realized (they bounced back to me) that I
was sending to the sender, not the newsgroup.

Arghhh!

Lynn

[Jim Porter]

You can customize those buttons however you like if you don't like the
current order.

- Jim

[Mike Easter]

For example, I removed my Reply button; if ever the need should arise,
the Followup button/menu has Reply and Reply all options which I'm sure
I will never use.


--
Mike Easter

[Chris Ilias]

On 12-08-28 4:31 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> Arghhh! TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons
> in newsgroup mode.

Yup. That was the plan. When the button was re-labelled, there was
concern that users wouldn't know what Followup was for and continue to
click Reply, so the Reply button was hidden for one update to help users
adjust. In the next update (this latest one), the Reply button is not
hidden, because hopefully by now most users know to use Followup when
posting to the newsgroup.

> It would not be so bad except the
> reply button is first. I sent 2 newsgroup messages
> before I realized (they bounced back to me) that I
> was sending to the sender, not the newsgroup.

As Jim said, you can re-order the buttons.
1. Right-click on any empty space in the headers pane, and select
"Customize".
2. Drag and drop buttons in the order that you want, or move them to the
Customize panel to not display them at all.

It works just like the Mail toolbar.

--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

[Lynn McGuire]

Done. The Reply button is now gone.

Thanks,
Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Done!

Thanks,
Lynn

[Mike Easter]

xpost & f/ups flag

Personally, I don't agree with what appears to be the developer
thought-processes re the terms 'Reply' and 'Followup'.

News messages are *not* email. Traditionally the term 'reply' as
regards a news message means to reply/answer to the group *definitely
NOT* reply to the From or Reply-To of the news message.

Traditionally popular news readers have given the user the choices to
'reply to group' (NOT followup) or reply to all (NOT followup) or reply
to sender. At no place in those reply choices is the term followup used
in traditonal newsgroup parlance.

Followup in fact has a completely different meaning vis newsgroups; that
is, it is part of the 'followup-to' function in which a header is
created which results in replies to the message with such a f/up-to flag
are redirected to a different or single newsgroup.

The most typical news message From/Reply-To content is designed to
'eliminate' any such 'reply to sender' and the newsreader/Tb interface
should not be designed so that there is a button which says 'reply'
which for a news message should mean reply to group but which instead in
the case of the misguided Tb developers now has a 'new' meaning of NOT
reply to group.

The developers have arbitrarily decided that they would create/ change
to/ make ambiguous such an all-important term/function of 'reply' and
then attempt to reorient our 'thinking' to make us believe that followup
NOW means reply to group and to forget about the traditional followup-to
term's association. It is zany. I'm sure that some of the developers
must've fought about this twisting of important words to change their
meanings.

The only compromise that sanity was able to achieve was to temporarily
hide the bastardization of terms mistake for one transient fleeting
version flipping process.

f/ups to .general


--
Mike Easter

[Lynn McGuire]

I totally agree. News messages are NOT email.

Lynn

[Peter Taylor]

So use Ctrl+R.

--
Peter Taylor

[David E. Ross]

Can I relabel the buttons?

--

David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>

Anyone who thinks government owns a monopoly on inefficient, obstructive
bureaucracy has obviously never worked for a large corporation.
� 1997 by David E. Ross

[Mike Easter]

David E. Ross wrote:

> Can I relabel the buttons?

Actually the developers should relabel or eliminate the buttons as
described below.

There should be NO button ambiguously labeled Reply.

There *should* be a button labeled Reply to Group which has a menu like
the current Followup button which menu has Reply All and Reply to Sender
hidden in the menu.

There should be no Followup button to be confused with the basic and
traditional newsgroup concept of the followup-to function which is
somewhere else.

I don't know who uses Forward on newsgroup messages or for what, so I'll
stay out of any discussion about that button. Maybe get rid of it or
put it in a menu under the Archive one.



--
Mike Easter

[Mike Easter]

Mike Easter wrote:

> Actually the developers should relabel or eliminate the buttons as
> described below.

Two buttons:

Reply to group (containing menu reply to all and reply to sender)
Other (containing menu Archive and Forward)

Alternatively one could name other as archive or forward and contain
both in its menu.

If we reduce the number of buttons to two, there will be plenty of room
to make the button size/width accommodate the label for the one you use
all the time Reply to Group.

Or name the other button Archive/Forward instead of other and it can be
the same size/width as Reply to Group for harmony and aesthetics.


--
Mike Easter

[Good Guy]

On 29/08/2012 01:02, Mike Easter wrote:
> Mike Easter wrote:
>
>> Actually the developers should relabel or eliminate the buttons as
>> described below.
>
> Two buttons:
>
> Reply to group (containing menu reply to all and reply to sender)
> Other (containing menu Archive and Forward)
>

Or simply:

"Reply"
"Reply to all"

The first one goes to the Newsgroup; the second one goes to the
newsgroup and to the sender.

The second button/label should be hidden by default.

Simple. No need for rocket science.

--
Good Guy
Website: http://mytaxsite.co.uk
Website: http://html-css.co.uk
Email: http://mytaxsite.co.uk/contact-us

[Mike Easter]

Good Guy wrote:

> Or simply:
>
> "Reply"

Reply is no good and should not appear anywhere. It is an ambiguous
term in newsgroup parlance.

There are 3 varieties of reply: replytogroup replytoall replytosender --
no such thing as 'reply'.

> Simple. No need for rocket science.

Some varieties of simplicity are overly complex and confusing and
muddled and need simple and straightforward clarification/crystallization.


--
Mike Easter

[Chris Ilias]

On 12-08-28 7:48 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
> David E. Ross wrote:
>
>> Can I relabel the buttons?
>
> Actually the developers should relabel or eliminate the buttons as
> described below.
>
> There should be NO button ambiguously labeled Reply.
>
> There *should* be a button labeled Reply to Group which has a menu like
> the current Followup button which menu has Reply All and Reply to Sender
> hidden in the menu.

Mike, I've said many times in this newsgroup that this isn't the place
to voice opinions about development. This is a user support newsgroup.
To submit feedback, please use
<http://getsatisfaction.com/mozilla_messaging>. If you'd like to get
into an actual discussion about Thunderbird development, that's what the
mozilla.dev.apps.thunderbird newsgroup is for.

> There should be no Followup button to be confused with the basic and
> traditional newsgroup concept of the followup-to function which is
> somewhere else.

Followup-To is a header, not a button or action. It's the newsgroup
equivalent of Reply-To.

> I don't know who uses Forward on newsgroup messages or for what, so I'll
> stay out of any discussion about that button. Maybe get rid of it or
> put it in a menu under the Archive one.

Forward is for sending via email. Notice that if you select a newsgroup
message and click [Forward], the message compose window will ask you to
set the "To" header, which is for email, not newsgroups.

[clay]

On 08/28/2012 4:48 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
>...

> I don't know who uses Forward on newsgroup messages or for what, so I'll
> stay out of any discussion about that button. Maybe get rid of it or
> put it in a menu under the Archive one.
>
>

I forward NG messages home when reading news away from home and I find
something that should be followed up on.
(maybe that's what followup should be for? <seg>)

[MikeR]

TB V15 on the Mac has no "Followup" button. Anywhere. I probably
shouldn't mention it lest it be "fixed". :-P

Mike

[WLS]

Did you click in a message header, select "Customize" and look for it?

--
WaltS using Fedora 17 (64-bit) KDE 4.8.5
Thunderbird Beta

[MikeR]

If you mean right-click on a message header, there is no "Customize"
there. "Followup isn't in the Toolbar|Customize either.

[WLS]

I meant IN, as in the header of the message where the Followup, Forward
Archive, and Delete buttons reside when you are reading the selected
message in the preview pane, or new tab, or new window.

[Dave Pyles]

Though my header may be different from yours because I have the Total
Message add installed, I've noticed that if I right-click on a blank
place in the header the "Customize" doesn't appear in the context menu,
but if I right click on some text in the header, it does.

Dave Pyles

[Mike Easter]

Dave Pyles wrote:
> MikeR wrote:

>> WLS wrote:

>>> Did you click in a message header, select "Customize" and look for it?
>>>
>> If you mean right-click on a message header, there is no "Customize"
>> there. "Followup isn't in the Toolbar|Customize either.
>
> Though my header may be different from yours because I have the Total
> Message add installed, I've noticed that if I right-click on a blank
> place in the header the "Customize" doesn't appear in the context menu,
> but if I right click on some text in the header, it does.

Then your 'functionality' of the R click is different from my 'generic'
Tb 15.

If I R click an empty part of the header part of the message pane, I get
a customize button. If I R click on text in that header pane, I get
different and specific context 'menu' depending on which text I R click.

Examples:
Subject or any header field besides MID: Copy
MID or other header fields containing MIDs: 2 or 3 choices
MID: open browser w/ MID (in GG) or copy MID
either of the 2 MID reference related lines: adds open message for MID
to the 2 above



--
Mike Easter

[EE]

Thanks for noticing. I just removed the reply button from the toolbar.

[Dave Pyles]

The Total Message extension makes some very dramatic changes to the way
the header works. I wasn't sure how regular header works any more,
that's why I qualified my observations.
Dave Pyles

[Jeff Layman]

I am totally puzzled by this thread.

I just updated to TB15 (Win7HPx64). I have no "Followup" button when in
News mode (eg reading messages in this thread). I have a "Reply" button
which acts like a Followup button - i.e. if I click on it it opens the
message for editing and replying to the NG.

I can't remember if I changed something in TB14 to just keep a Reply
button (which I am used to; I understand that "Followup" is the correct
term, but I'm happy still using "Reply*). So I right-clicked and looked
for a followup button in "Customize". But there isn't one. I even
suffered a complete change to my button layout by clicking on "Restore
default set", just to see if a followup button appeared. It didn't.
From the left I have:
Get mail
Write
Chat
Address Book
Tag
Quick Filter

Only the Get Mail and Tag buttons have drop-down arrows on them.

What am I doing wrong?

--

Jeff

[Jim Porter]

On 08/29/2012 02:13 PM, Jeff Layman wrote:
> I can't remember if I changed something in TB14 to just keep a Reply
> button (which I am used to; I understand that "Followup" is the correct
> term, but I'm happy still using "Reply*). So I right-clicked and looked
> for a followup button in "Customize". But there isn't one. I even
> suffered a complete change to my button layout by clicking on "Restore
> default set", just to see if a followup button appeared. It didn't.
> From the left I have:
> Get mail
> Write
> Chat
> Address Book
> Tag
> Quick Filter
>
> Only the Get Mail and Tag buttons have drop-down arrows on them.
>
> What am I doing wrong?

You're looking at the Mail Toolbar (near the top of the window), not the
Message Header Toolbar (near the message headers). "Followup" wasn't
used in the Mail Toolbar because the buttons there are a bit weird, and
the changes to the Message Header Toolbar didn't carry over well.

- Jim

[Mike Easter]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> I am totally puzzled by this thread.

You are looking at a different toolbar, at least part of the time. See
below.

> I just updated to TB15 (Win7HPx64). I have no "Followup" button when in
> News mode (eg reading messages in this thread). I have a "Reply" button
> which acts like a Followup button - i.e. if I click on it it opens the
> message for editing and replying to the NG.

I'm not going to address this par, but 10 lines in the one below.

> I can't remember if I changed something in TB14 to just keep a Reply
> button (which I am used to; I understand that "Followup" is the correct
> term, but I'm happy still using "Reply*). So I right-clicked and looked
> for a followup button in "Customize". But there isn't one. I even
> suffered a complete change to my button layout by clicking on "Restore
> default set", just to see if a followup button appeared. It didn't.
> From the left I have:
> Get mail
> Write
> Chat
> Address Book
> Tag
> Quick Filter
>
> Only the Get Mail and Tag buttons have drop-down arrows on them.
>
> What am I doing wrong?

The 10 lines above beginning with 'From the left' refer to what is
called the 'Mail Toolbar' (even when you are looking at a newsgroup
because Tb developers like to imagine that news is an offshoot of mail,
which it is not, in my adamant opinion).

We have been talking about a view in which the message pane is enabled
(See View/ Layout - message pane) and that message pane has a header
pane/section which pane/section contains the buttons being debated.

--
Mike Easter

[Jeff Layman]

Thanks - see my reply to Mike.

--

Jeff

[Jeff Layman]

I cannot see any Message Pane buttons (are these meant to be just above
the Quick Filter toolbar?).This is my setup (entries shown are ticked):
View:
Toolbars:
Menu Bar
Mail Bar
Status Bar

Layout:
Classic View
FolderPane
Message Pane F8

I've tried opening TB with addons disabled, but it makes no difference.

You note that "the message pane has a header pane/section which
pane/section contains the buttons being debated." What in "View" should
I select/deselect to show those buttons?

--

Jeff

[Mike Easter]

Jeff Layman wrote:

> Mike Easter wrote:

>> We have been talking about a view in which the message pane is enabled
>> (See View/ Layout - message pane) and that message pane has a header
>> pane/section which pane/section contains the buttons being debated.

To elaborate on enabling the message pane:

Tb app/ View menu/ Layout item/ checkmark Message Pane

Alternatively, when viewing messages such as in this newsgroup, F8
toggles the message pane on and off.

In the top portion of the message pane is the header pane.

It is possible to hide/obscure the message pane beyond visibility even
with F8 or the checkmark described above by sliding the slider bar
(between the thread pane and the message pane) down so far as to cause
the message pane to disappear, as illustrated in this moz kb about Tb's
window panes.

http://kb.mozillazine.org/Window_layout_-_Thunderbird#Message_pane
Window layout - Thunderbird - 4 Message pane

"If you drag the splitter down, making the message pane too short, the
pane suddenly collapses. This is useful when you do not need the message
pane. The splitter remains at the bottom of the window:"

> I cannot see any Message Pane buttons (are these meant to be just above
> the Quick Filter toolbar?).

No that quick filter toolbar is just above the thread pane.

In the classic 3 pane layout the folder pane is on the left, the thread
pane is top right and the window pane is bottom right as per the window
layout illustrations in the link above.

> This is my setup (entries shown are ticked):
> View:
> Toolbars:
> Menu Bar
> Mail Bar
> Status Bar
>
> Layout:
> Classic View
> FolderPane
> Message Pane F8

Maybe you have 'collapsed' the message pane by slider button vertical
shrinkage so that you can't see it even when F8 activates.

> I've tried opening TB with addons disabled, but it makes no difference.
>
> You note that "the message pane has a header pane/section which
> pane/section contains the buttons being debated." What in "View" should
> I select/deselect to show those buttons?

Unless the message pane has been collapsed by the slider bar shrinkage,
F8 should toggle the message pane on and off. When On, the message pane
has a header section and a message section and the buttons are in the
header section.



--
Mike Easter

[Frank]

Dittos. I fell into this trap twice.
Frank

[brian]

The 'followup' button does not appear in the 'customise' list. However,
there is an item there 'smart reply'. When added to the toolbar I get a
drop down arrow with a context menu showing 'Followup,Reply all & Reply'

Can someone explain the difference between followup & reply although I
have used the followup option to post this message and may find out
accordingly.

Brian

[Mike Easter]

brian wrote:

> Can someone explain the difference between followup & reply although I
> have used the followup option to post this message and may find out
> accordingly.

If you position your cursor over the button and each item in the menu, a
tooltip will appear which describes the developer's opinion of the
item/word's meaning:

Followup = Post a followup to this newsgroup (reply to group)
Reply = Reply to the sender of this message (reply to sender)
Reply All = Reply to sender and all recipients - ie group (reply to all)

The debate here is about how those words should be - should have been -
managed. One opinion is that for newsgroups, Reply unqualified is
ambiguous and thus should be avoided altogether and the Reply type
should always be specified as the parentheses above. Such clarity would
eliminate the misuse of the term Followup as expanded above.


--
Mike Easter

[MikeR]

OK, now I think we're on the same page. I have the CompactHeader add-on
which changes what's displayed. Disabling it put the "Followup" in the
context menu.

[Ron Hunter]

And how long has Thunderbird been available? And how long has 'reply'
as a generic name been in use? And just what justifies the confusion
obviously generated by the change?

[WaltS]

Do I really have to look up the discussion on google groups, the bugs,
and whatever other information was posted before as to why?

It is because that is what the standards are.

Pan has had "followup to newsgroup" for as long as I can remember using
it, and I'll wager that most dedicated newsreader applications also use
the terminology.

[Jeff Layman]

Ok. Sorry about the Thread/Message pane mixup. Thanks for persevering.

I've now sorted it out, but it wasn't straightforward. At first, I just
could not get any followup button in the message pane header.

The reason was the CompactHeader extension (2.0.6), which has a large
number of optional buttons that can be placed in the message header. I
had to remove all preferences, then restore the default button set,
before a followup button appeared in the header. With CompactHeader
enabled, there was no followup button in the 20 or so shown. There is a
"Reply to list" button which I now see has the same icon as the followup
button, but it does not seem to have a drop-down arrow. The followup
button only appeared when the extension was disabled and default set
selected (even then it helped to have "icons and text" showing so that
it was obvious when it appeared).

--

Jeff

[Ron Hunter]

I have used at least a dozen news readers over the years, and I have
NEVER seen 'followup' used that way.
It doesn't appear on my computer because it is customized, and the only
'reply' is to newsgroups for newsgroups, and to email for email.
Wouldn't want it either way. This customization ability is why I use
Thunderbird.

[James Silverton]

On 8/28/2012 4:31 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> Arghhh! TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons
> in newsgroup mode. It would not be so bad except the
> reply button is first. I sent 2 newsgroup messages
> before I realized (they bounced back to me) that I
> was sending to the sender, not the newsgroup.
>
> Arghhh!
>
> Lynn

It surely does and it required me to download the whole program and
allow it to make changes twice but it now seems to work.

--

James Silverton ( NOT not.jim.silverton)

[Ken Whiton]

*-* On Thu, 30 Aug 2012, at 09:59:33 -0500,
*-* In Article <iICdnSSZrZRT4qLN...@mozilla.org>,
*-* Ron Hunter wrote
*-* About Re: TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons in
newsgroup mode

> On 8/30/2012 7:35 AM, WaltS wrote:
>> On 08/30/2012 08:25 AM, Ron Hunter wrote:

[ ... ]

>>> And how long has Thunderbird been available? And how long has
>>> 'reply' as a generic name been in use? And just what justifies
>>> the confusion obviously generated by the change?
>
>> Do I really have to look up the discussion on google groups, the
>> bugs, and whatever other information was posted before as to why?
>>
>> It is because that is what the standards are.
>>
>> Pan has had "followup to newsgroup" for as long as I can remember
>> using it, and I'll wager that most dedicated newsreader
>> applications also use the terminology.
>
> I have used at least a dozen news readers over the years, and I have
> NEVER seen 'followup' used that way.

Xnews uses it, and I've seen you recommend Xnews for binary
groups many times. Of course, if you use Xnews only for downloading
binaries, and have never used it to respond to posts you probably
wouldn't have noticed it.

Ken Whiton
--
FIDO: 1:132/152
InterNet: kenw...@surfglobal.net.INVAL (remove the obvious to reply)

[Ron Hunter]

I have never used Xnews for any kind of mail, or to post to a newsgroup,
so I wouldn't see that.

[Gelomida]

On 08/29/2012 01:06 AM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 8/28/2012 5:52 PM, Mike Easter wrote:
>> xpost & f/ups flag

>>
>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> Mike Easter wrote:
>>>> Jim Porter wrote:
>>>>> Lynn McGuire wrote:

>>>>>> Arghhh! TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons
>>>>>> in newsgroup mode. It would not be so bad except the
>>>>>> reply button is first. I sent 2 newsgroup messages
>>>>>> before I realized (they bounced back to me) that I
>>>>>> was sending to the sender, not the newsgroup.
>>>>>

>>>>> You can customize those buttons however you like if you don't
>>>>> like the current order.
>>>>
>>>> For example, I removed my Reply button; if ever the need should arise,
>>>> the Followup button/menu has Reply and Reply all options which
>>>> I'm sure I will never use.
>>>
>>> Done!
>>

>> Personally, I don't agree with what appears to be the developer
>> thought-processes re the terms 'Reply' and 'Followup'.
>>
>> News messages are *not* email. Traditionally the term 'reply' as
>> regards a news message means to reply/answer to the group
>> *definitely NOT* reply to the From or Reply-To of the news message.
>>
>> Traditionally popular news readers have given the user the choices to
>> 'reply to group' (NOT followup) or reply to all (NOT followup)
>> or reply to sender. At no place in those reply choices is the term
>> followup used in traditonal newsgroup parlance.
>>
>> Followup in fact has a completely different meaning vis newsgroups;
>> that is, it is part of the 'followup-to' function in which a
>> header is created which results in replies to the message with such a
>> f/up-to flag are redirected to a different or single newsgroup.
>>
>> The most typical news message From/Reply-To content is designed to
>> 'eliminate' any such 'reply to sender' and the newsreader/Tb
>> interface should not be designed so that there is a button which says
>> 'reply' which for a news message should mean reply to group but
>> which instead in the case of the misguided Tb developers now has a
>> 'new' meaning of NOT reply to group.
>>
>> The developers have arbitrarily decided that they would create/ change
>> to/ make ambiguous such an all-important term/function of
>> 'reply' and then attempt to reorient our 'thinking' to make us believe
>> that followup NOW means reply to group and to forget about the
>> traditional followup-to term's association. It is zany. I'm sure
>> that some of the developers must've fought about this twisting of
>> important words to change their meanings.
>>
>> The only compromise that sanity was able to achieve was to temporarily
>> hide the bastardization of terms mistake for one transient
>> fleeting version flipping process.
>>
>> f/ups to .general
>
> I totally agree. News messages are NOT email.
>
Fully agree, Trying to decide, that a word has now a different meaning
than the one used in a given context (news groups) is not the very best
idea.

To be honest though. I was annoyed about this for a few minutes and now
just click on follow up.
For anybody switching from a 'classic' news reader to T-Bird this will
create some guaranteed confusion though.

[Ann Watson]

Buttons? I only use the all-purpose reply button in newsgroups
when the right click menu doesn't give me the option I want (eg
"reply to sender", "follow up to newsgroup", etc.).

AW

[James Silverton]

Right-click does not seem to do that in TB15; which version do you have?

[Keith Nuttle]

On 9/6/2012 8:48 AM, Ann Watson wrote:
> Jim Porter wrote:
>> Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> Arghhh! TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons
>>> in newsgroup mode. It would not be so bad except the
>>> reply button is first. I sent 2 newsgroup messages
>>> before I realized (they bounced back to me) that I
>>> was sending to the sender, not the newsgroup.
>>
>> You can customize those buttons however you like if you don't
>> like the current order.
>
> For example, I removed my Reply button; if ever the need
> should arise,
> the Followup button/menu has Reply and Reply all options which
> I'm sure I will never use.

Thanks, I have done this many times and was not happy with the new
change. Based on my experience in trying to change this previous it may
be one of the context changes. ie if you are not in the right place it
can not be changed.

[Ann Watson]

Presently using TB16 Beta but it worked as well in TB15.

AW

[Ron Hunter]

It does here. Do you have something that modifies the context menu?
BTW, what is 'reply to list'?

[Jim]

On 09/06/2012 08:07 PM, Ron Hunter wrote:
> It does here. Do you have something that modifies the context menu?
> BTW, what is 'reply to list'?

Reply to List is a command available when the List-Post header is
specified, which well-behaved mailing lists should do. The alternative
is usually munging the Reply-To header so that replies go back to the
list, but that's a violation of RFC 2822 (not that it stops people from
doing it).

- Jim

[Jim]

On 09/06/2012 03:32 AM, Gelomida wrote:
> To be honest though. I was annoyed about this for a few minutes and now
> just click on follow up.
> For anybody switching from a 'classic' news reader to T-Bird this will
> create some guaranteed confusion though.

You mean like someone switching from a news reader like tin, xrn, gnus,
or XNews? All of these - and many more[1] - use "Followup" to describe
posting a response to a news article.

- Jim

[1] http://gnksa.org/gnksa-evaluations.html

[Steve]

> TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons in newsgroup mode

I noticed that. Some way to get rid of the Reply button, or at least
make it the second one instead of the first?

[Keith Nuttle]

There are two buttons in the customize for a newsgroup, both appear to
be Reply. Make sure you and the Smart Reply not the Reply on your toolbar.

[Chris Ilias]

Guys, you probably haven't noticed, but this sub-thread is being
cross-posted to mozilla.general. Could you please stop cross-posting
this discussion to mozilla.general, thanks. :)

--
Chris Ilias <http://ilias.ca>
Mailing list/Newsgroup moderator

[Steve]

Anyone?

[Jay Garcia]

On 10.09.2012 08:20, Steve wrote:

Running TB 15 here with default theme and there are no reply and/or
followup buttons in either mail or newsgroup mode. In the rigth-click
context menu, reply has been replaced by "followup".

--
Jay Garcia - www.ufaq.org - Netscape - Firefox - SeaMonkey - Thunderbird
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[Mike Easter]

Re the message pane header section in news mode buttons:

I got rid of the Reply button by R clicking the header area of the
message pane and using Customize and then I either dragged Reply out or
deleted it, I forget.

The followup button has all the function you need because it has a menu
for two other items I never use, Reply and Reply All.

--
Mike Easter

[rebro]

Am 10.09.2012 17:21, schrieb Mike Easter:
> Steve wrote:
>> Anyone?
>>
>> On 9/7/2012 08.03, Steve wrote:
>>>> TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons in newsgroup mode
>>>
>>> I noticed that. Some way to get rid of the Reply button, or at least
>>> make it the second one instead of the first?
>
> Re the message pane header section in news mode buttons:
>
> I got rid of the Reply button by R clicking the header area of the
> message pane and using Customize and then I either dragged Reply out or
> deleted it, I forget.
>

Thanks for this suggestion. Using Customize and dragging Reply out did it.
-rebro

[Jay Garcia]

On 10.09.2012 10:21, Mike Easter wrote:

--- Original Message ---

Ok, the buttons were not there by default. Right-click the pane header -
customize - drag/drop either one will do it OR if there drag back to the
customize window.

[Robert M Jones]

If I click Reply from the menu bar it goes to the newsgroup only
If I click Reply from the preview pane buttons, it goes to the email
address of the sender only
If I open the post then the same anomaly occurs - depending whether I
use the menu bar or the Reply button in the message tab.

TB 15.0 vanilla version in Windows XP Home SP3

Does that make sense to anyone? That the Reply button means different
things and does different things depending where on the screen it is?

I HOPE this has gone to the group and not anyone's email address.

--
Rev Robert M Jones, Wimborne Baptist Church, UK
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/dataprofiling/
http://www.wimborne-baptist.org.uk
Free trial of Mailwasher Pro - effective email spam filter - (commission
goes to our partners in Bulgaria)
http://fta.firetrust.com/index.cgi?id=420

[Mike Easter]

Robert M Jones wrote:

> Mike Easter wrote:

>> I got rid of the Reply button by R clicking the header area of the
>> message pane and using Customize and then I either dragged Reply out or
>> deleted it, I forget.
>>
>> The followup button has all the function you need because it has a menu
>> for two other items I never use, Reply and Reply All.
>>
>
> If I click Reply from the menu bar it goes to the newsgroup only

Menu bar? My menu bar has File Edit View Go Message Tools Help.

The menu Message has items Followup to newsgroup, Reply to Sender only,
Reply to All in addition to New Message.

News account group mode Tb 16 linux.

Newgroup mode Tb 14 Windows: likewise

I don't happen to have a Tb 15 handy currently.

> If I click Reply from the preview pane buttons, it goes to the email
> address of the sender only

OE calls it a preview pane. Tb calls it a message pane (header section)
because OE's rendering of the 'preview' is not precisely the same as
OE's rendering of an 'opened' message, whereas Tb's rendering of a
message /displayed/ in the message pane is the same rendering as the
rendering displayed in a message which has been /opened/ in another tab
or another window. Display (in the message pane) vs Open being my
operative words to distinguish message pane from some other display place.

> If I open the post then the same anomaly occurs - depending whether I
> use the menu bar or the Reply button in the message tab.
>
> TB 15.0 vanilla version in Windows XP Home SP3

See above, I'm commenting on Tb 16 and 14.

> Does that make sense to anyone? That the Reply button means different
> things and does different things depending where on the screen it is?
>
> I HOPE this has gone to the group and not anyone's email address.




--

Mike Easter

[Peter Trofimof]

On Monday, September 10, 2012 9:30:08 AM UTC-4, Jay Garcia wrote:
>
> Running TB 15 here with default theme and there are no reply and/or
>
> followup buttons in either mail or newsgroup mode. In the rigth-click
>
> context menu, reply has been replaced by "followup".
>

Are there 2 different Tbird 15.0 versions floating out there? I am running 15.0 and if I right click on message pane and customize-"restore default set" then I get Reply-Reply All-Forward-Archive-Junk-Delete in Mail and Reply-Followup-Archive-Delete in Ngs.

The biggest problem is that T-Bird does not allow me to independently customize mail AND ngs. If I remove the reply buttom from message pane of ngs, the reply button vanishes from the message pane of my mail reader. Same for a rearrange.

[Jim]

On 09/11/2012 03:58 PM, Peter Trofimof wrote:
> The biggest problem is that T-Bird does not allow me to independently
> customize mail AND ngs. If I remove the reply buttom from message
> pane of ngs, the reply button vanishes from the message pane of my
> mail reader. Same for a rearrange.

Could you elaborate on why you want independently-customized toolbars
for mail and news? The current behavior for news is intentionally
designed to match how mailing lists work* so that people don't have to
mentally adjust when switching between the two.

Would it be an acceptable compromise if the message header toolbar had a
"Followup" button that hid itself in mail? Then you could add "Followup"
first and "Reply" (to Author) second, and the result would be that the
first button is "Followup" in news, and "Reply" in mail.

- Jim

* Specifically, mailing lists that set the List-Post header, and not
ones that munge the Reply-To header, since the latter is a violation of
RFC 2822.

[Peter Trofimof]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 8:35:50 PM UTC-4, Jim wrote:

> Could you elaborate on why you want independently-customized toolbars
>
> for mail and news? The current behavior for news is intentionally
>
> designed to match how mailing lists work* so that people don't have to
>
> mentally adjust when switching between the two.
>
>
>
> Would it be an acceptable compromise if the message header toolbar had a
>
> "Followup" button that hid itself in mail? Then you could add "Followup"
>
> first and "Reply" (to Author) second, and the result would be that the
>
> first button is "Followup" in news, and "Reply" in mail.
>
>
>
> - Jim

That would be just fine, and you have clearly guessed what the problem is: that it is ideal to be able to have a button in the same position in mail and news, pressing which would allow a reply to sender function in mail and a reply to post in newsgroup in news. Because these are the actions most used in each of those respective environments.

The problem is that what is Follow-up in news and Reply All in Mail seem to be different incarnations of a "Smart Reply" button when customizing message pane. But "reply all" is a secondary action in Mail while Follow up is a primary action in News. So wherever this button is placed, it will always have people crossing wires when operating in both environments simultaneously.

[Jim]

On 09/11/2012 10:12 PM, Peter Trofimof wrote:
> ... which would allow a reply to sender function in mail and a reply

> to post in newsgroup in news. Because these are the actions most used
> in each of those respective environments.

I don't think this is generally true. In my experience, I almost always
use Reply All (or Reply List) when it's available. I know this is highly
dependent on what kind of messages users receive, though.

Incidentally, the logic for this placement is as follows: the first
reply button is a "narrow response", and the second (if it exists) is a
"wide response". That way, people always know to click the first button
if they only want one person to read a message, and the second if they
want multiple people to read a message. While it will probably take some
adjustment for people used to the old ways, I hope this logic will help
people to keep track of who will see their messages.

> So wherever this button is placed, it will always have people
> crossing wires when operating in both environments simultaneously.

This is highly dependent on what you've come to expect, and isn't
necessarily a case of crossed wires. It's actually much *more*
consistent for people who interact with both mailing lists and
newsgroups, since it allows people to click the same button to respond
to the group no matter what kind of group it is.

That said, as noted earlier in the thread, this behavior is inconsistent
with the hidden-by-default Reply button in the top toolbar. That's bug
789400: <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=789400>.

- Jim

[Peter Trofimof]

On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 3:00:15 AM UTC-4, Jim wrote:
> On 09/11/2012 10:12 PM, Peter Trofimof wrote:
>

>
> I don't think this is generally true. In my experience, I almost always
>
> use Reply All (or Reply List) when it's available. I know this is highly
>
> dependent on what kind of messages users receive, though.
>
>
>
> Incidentally, the logic for this placement is as follows: the first
>
> reply button is a "narrow response", and the second (if it exists) is a
>
> "wide response". That way, people always know to click the first button
>
> if they only want one person to read a message, and the second if they
>
> want multiple people to read a message. While it will probably take some
>
> adjustment for people used to the old ways, I hope this logic will help
>
> people to keep track of who will see their messages.
>
>
>
> > So wherever this button is placed, it will always have people
>
> > crossing wires when operating in both environments simultaneously.
>
>
>
> This is highly dependent on what you've come to expect, and isn't
>
> necessarily a case of crossed wires. It's actually much *more*
>
> consistent for people who interact with both mailing lists and
>
> newsgroups, since it allows people to click the same button to respond
>
> to the group no matter what kind of group it is.
>
>
>

> - Jim

Narrow and wide response is interesting (and consistent), but reply all in Mail includes recipient, so I would constantly mail myself responses, and I have a sent folder for that. It all depends, as you point out, on the fraction of mail in my inbox that requires I "reply all". I belong to an university community, (where reply-all is much less frequent than in corporate environments I suspect), and I can say that this change has created havoc there.

[Rex's Mom]

On 08/29/12 2:20 PM, EE wrote:

> On 2012-08-28 13:31, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> Arghhh! TB 15 now has both reply and followup buttons
>> in newsgroup mode. It would not be so bad except the
>> reply button is first. I sent 2 newsgroup messages
>> before I realized (they bounced back to me) that I
>> was sending to the sender, not the newsgroup.
>>

>> Arghhh!
>>
>> Lynn
>
> Thanks for noticing. I just removed the reply button from the toolbar.
>
I do not seem to be able to either re-order or remove the icon. When I
right click, it takes me to a customize screen that does not
specifically show the icons.
I am sure it is something simple and basic, but I'm stumped. Help please!

--

Rex's Mom

[Vic Moz Garcia]

Drag and drop ...

Drag the button from the toolbar and drop it into the 'Customize
Toolbar' window.

[Rex's Mom]

thanks...what I was missing was that one needed to have them both open,
meaning the customize tool bar AND the message.
Now done.

--

Rex's Mom

[Robert Miles]

Open a newsgroup, then a message. Right-click on the header (whether
you select a blank area or some text may make a difference). Select
Customize. Drag the reply button into the customize window (note that
its name may change to Smart Reply during this). Click Done in the
Customize window.

[Robert Miles]

But not more consistent for people who interact with both email and
newsgroups, but not mailing lists.

Robert Miles

[Gabor Szakacs]

I think having a Reply button that does the "normal" thing in the
current context is more natural than using a "follow-up" button.
And also more consistent for those who have been using TB since
version 2.x, and got used to a single button that just "did the
right thing." I may be unusual in using my actual e-mail address
when posting to newsgroups, but now I find that I often get replies
to newsgroup posts in my inbox, and pretty much all of them show
TB 15.x as the sender's agent.

Just my 2 cents (and my vote for the "old way")

-- Gabor

[jens.marti...@googlemail.com]

Am Sonntag, 14. Oktober 2012 03:23:33 UTC+2 schrieb robertmiles:
> Open a newsgroup, then a message. Right-click on the header (whether
> you select a blank area or some text may make a difference). Select
> Customize. Drag the reply button into the customize window (note that
> its name may change to Smart Reply during this). Click Done in the
> Customize window.

If I remove the reply button, it disappears in normal mails also. But there I need it.

[clay]

I've found the key command Ctrl+r (left hand is not doing much anyway
*g*) or the right click context menu item >Reply to be adequate workarounds.