I'm not receiving delivery confirmation...

[Mark Filipak]

I'm not receiving delivery confirmation even though I select it
('Options' > 'Delivery Status Notification'). I have confirmed the
problem by sending email to myself, via two accounts: one gmail & one
isp, in both directions.

Anyone have any ideas why I can't get delivery confirmation? Anyone else
experiencing this?

Thanks!

Mark,
T'bird 45.3.0 running in Linux Mint 18.

[Ralph Fox]

Many mail servers do not provide delivery confirmations. You are not
guaranteed to receive a delivery confirmation when you request one.

I ran a test earlier today.
1) I enabled SMTP logging in Thunderbird
https://wiki.mozilla.org/MailNews:Logging
2) I sent an email with 'Delivery Status Notification' turned on.
3) I checked the logs, which confirmed that Thunderbird had
sent a request for delivery confirmation with the email,
and that my outgoing mail server had accepted this request.
4) I checked the recipient mail server and confirmed that the
email which I had sent has arrived there.
5) However, I have not as yet received a delivery confirmation.
It appears that this recipient mail server does not provide
delivery confirmation.

The best you can do is check whether Thunderbird sent the request for
delivery confirmation, and whether your outgoing mail server accepted
this request. Beyond that point it is completely out of Thunderbird's
control.

--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊

[David E. Ross]

Furthermore, some E-mail applications (including Thunderbird) allow the
user to block the sending of confirmations.

--
David E. Ross
<http://www.rossde.com/>.

Donald Trump claims he is a successful businessman.
If so, how does he explain the number of his
enterprises that have gone bankrupt?

[Ralph Fox]

Thunderbird allows the user to block the sending of "Return Receipt"
confirmations.

"Delivery Status Notification" confirmations are very different to
"Return Receipt" confirmations. "Delivery Status Notification"
confirmations are provided by the recipient mail server, even before the
email client (like Thunderbird) knows about the email.


--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊

[Mark Filipak]

On 09/23/2016 09:01 PM, Ralph Fox wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 17:19:45 -0700, David E. Ross wrote:

> Thunderbird allows the user to block the sending of "Return Receipt"
> confirmations.
>
> "Delivery Status Notification" confirmations are very different to
> "Return Receipt" confirmations. "Delivery Status Notification"
> confirmations are provided by the recipient mail server, even before
> the email client (like Thunderbird) knows about the email.

Thank you, Ralph,

I guess that if I don't receive a bounce notice in the next few days I
should assume that the non-responding recipient did indeed receive it,
eh? But actually, since I've sent the same message four times in the
last week-and-a-half, unless the recipient's email server is badly
misconfigured, I can assume that I've simply been put on ignore.
Comment: The recipient is my Ford dealer's Service Manager. The
dealership appears to be attempting to paper-over a potential claim
against Ford -- my 2015 Focus has only 4000 miles -- by creating bogus
warranty service reports that obscure my warranty service complaints.
The issue is my car dying in turns and at intersections. Fully half of
my service visits have not been documented at all, and the remaining
ones have been recorded as ordinary, non-specific service.
Unfortunately, I have not separately recorded my warranty service
requests. I earlier received a letter from an attorney who is starting a
class action suit against Ford for exactly this problem. After 40 years
of buying Japanese cars, I bought a Ford with the assumption that
American car makers had cleaned up their acts. I guess I was wrong. I
will personally go to the dealership on Monday, and, lacking serious
action, contact that lawyer on Tuesday. ...Sigh! Well, things could be
worse. At least I don't bank at Wells Fargo.

[David E. Ross]

Windows 7 Ultimate SP1
Thunderbird 45.3.0
Messages composed in plain-text
Protocols: POP3 and SMTP

I just ran the following tests. I have two unrelated E-mail accounts.
I sent a test message from each to the other. For each message, I
requested "Delivery Status Notification". I never received a
notification of delivery.

I examined the source of each message, both as sent from the sending
account and as received at the destination account. In no case can I
find a header that indicates "Delivery Status Notification". While it
is possible that such a header might be removed by the receiving POP3
server, I would at least expect the header to appear in the as-sent
source.

[Mark Filipak]

On 09/24/2016 12:18 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
> On 9/23/2016 4:10 PM, Mark Filipak wrote:

> Windows 7 Ultimate SP1 Thunderbird 45.3.0 Messages composed in
> plain-text Protocols: POP3 and SMTP
>
> I just ran the following tests. I have two unrelated E-mail
> accounts. I sent a test message from each to the other. For each
> message, I requested "Delivery Status Notification". I never
> received a notification of delivery.
>
> I examined the source of each message, both as sent from the sending
> account and as received at the destination account. In no case can
> I find a header that indicates "Delivery Status Notification". While
> it is possible that such a header might be removed by the receiving
> POP3 server, I would at least expect the header to appear in the
> as-sent source.

I repeated your experiment, David.

I looked at the 'Return Receipt' message (my 3rd attempt at sending). It
has this header:
Disposition-Notification-To: Mark Filipak <mark...+ford@gmail.com>

Next I looked at the 'Delivery Status Notification' message (my 4th
attempt at sending). It has no special headers at all!

I confirm that T'bird is not adding anything to 'Delivery Status
Notification' messages. This seems to be an issue with T'bird.

[Ralph Fox]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 00:38:30 -0400, Mark Filipak wrote:
> On 09/24/2016 12:18 AM, David E. Ross wrote:
>>
>> I just ran the following tests. I have two unrelated E-mail
>> accounts. I sent a test message from each to the other. For each
>> message, I requested "Delivery Status Notification". I never
>> received a notification of delivery.
>>
>> I examined the source of each message, both as sent from the sending
>> account and as received at the destination account. In no case can
>> I find a header that indicates "Delivery Status Notification". While
>> it is possible that such a header might be removed by the receiving
>> POP3 server, I would at least expect the header to appear in the
>> as-sent source.

That would be an incorrect expectation. There is no header field. A
"Delivery Status Notification" request is in the SMTP envelope, not in a
header field.

> I repeated your experiment, David.
>
> I looked at the 'Return Receipt' message (my 3rd attempt at sending).
> It has this header:
> Disposition-Notification-To: Mark Filipak <mark...+ford@gmail.com>
>
> Next I looked at the 'Delivery Status Notification' message (my 4th
> attempt at sending). It has no special headers at all!
>
> I confirm that T'bird is not adding anything to 'Delivery Status
> Notification' messages. This seems to be an issue with T'bird.

Thunderbird does add something to the SMTP envelope for "Delivery
Status Notification" messages. You won't find it in the header
fields because that is not where it belongs. And yes, this is
different to how "Return Receipt" messages work.

____
FOOTNOTE
Technical reference: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3461

--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊

[Mark Filipak]

On 09/24/2016 01:53 AM, Ralph Fox wrote:
-snip-

> Thunderbird does add something to the SMTP envelope for "Delivery
> Status Notification" messages. You won't find it in the header
> fields because that is not where it belongs. And yes, this is
> different to how "Return Receipt" messages work.
>
> ____ FOOTNOTE
> Technical reference: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3461

Thanks again, Ralph.

Are you using Wireshark? I just switched to Linux and haven't installed
it yet (though I believe there is a version for Linux). Or are you maybe
using a T'bird add-in that's equivalent to the Firefox 'Live HTTP
headers' add-in?

Regards,
Mark.

[Ralph Fox]

On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 23:36:42 -0400, Mark Filipak wrote:

> I guess that if I don't receive a bounce notice in the next few days I
> should assume that the non-responding recipient did indeed receive it,
> eh?

Bounce messages can get lost too, or in some cases not sent back at all.

> But actually, since I've sent the same message four times in the
> last week-and-a-half, unless the recipient's email server is badly
> misconfigured, I can assume that I've simply been put on ignore.

Not sending delivery confirmations is usually an intentional choice, not
a misconfiguration. There are reasons for this, for example that
spammers could use delivery confirmations to confirm your email address.

> Comment: The recipient is my Ford dealer's Service Manager. The
> dealership appears to be attempting to paper-over a potential claim
> against Ford -- my 2015 Focus has only 4000 miles -- by creating bogus
> warranty service reports that obscure my warranty service complaints.
> The issue is my car dying in turns and at intersections. Fully half of
> my service visits have not been documented at all, and the remaining
> ones have been recorded as ordinary, non-specific service.
> Unfortunately, I have not separately recorded my warranty service
> requests. I earlier received a letter from an attorney who is
> starting a class action suit against Ford for exactly this problem.
> After 40 years of buying Japanese cars, I bought a Ford with the
> assumption that American car makers had cleaned up their acts. I
> guess I was wrong. I will personally go to the dealership on Monday,
> and, lacking serious action, contact that lawyer on Tuesday. ...Sigh!
> Well, things could be worse. At least I don't bank at Wells Fargo.

A snail-mail registered letter with advice of receipt can be useful. You
get confirmation that they have received it (or better evidence that
they are refusing to receive it).

--
Kind regards
Ralph
🦊

[Ralph Fox]

It is already built in to Thunderbird.
See https://wiki.mozilla.org/MailNews:Logging


Start Thunderbird with these two environment variables set

NSPR_LOG_MODULES=SMTP:5,timestamp
NSPR_LOG_FILE=/tmp/thunderbird__smtp.log ### or your choice of path/file

Then send the "Delivery Status Notification" email message.


Here is an annotated example of a log file:

| 2016-09-23 23:35:13.408000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Connecting to: smtp.wapakiwi.reg.nz
| 2016-09-23 23:35:15.674000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:15.674000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 220 wapakiwi.reg.nz ESMTP ready

....Outbound mail server "greeting".

| 2016-09-23 23:35:15.674000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 14
| 2016-09-23 23:35:15.674000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Send: EHLO [192.168.43.99]

....Thunderbird EHLO (extended hello) to the outbound mail server.

| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.002000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.002000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250-wapakiwi.reg.nz
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.002000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250-SIZE 10240000
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250-8BITMIME
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250 DSN

....Outbound mail server announcing its capabilities.
"DSN" means the server will accept "Delivery Status Notification" requests in the SMTP envelope.


| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 4
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 21
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP auth: server caps 0x34, pref 0x40000, failed 0x0, avail caps 0x0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: (GSSAPI = 0x800, CRAM = 0x2000, NTLM = 0x4000, MSN = 0x8000, PLAIN = 0x200, LOGIN = 0x100, EXTERNAL = 0x400)
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: no auth method remaining
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 3
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.049000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Send: MAIL FROM:<robin...@wapakiwi.reg.nz> RET=FULL ENVID=<bfe14340-7d96-94db...@xtra.co.nz> BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=1100

....Thunderbird sets the MAIL FROM address in the SMTP envelope.

| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.564000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.564000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250 2.1.0 Ok
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.564000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 5
| 2016-09-23 23:35:16.564000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Send: RCPT TO:<-rf...@xn--kba.invalid> NOTIFY=SUCCESS,FAILURE,DELAY ORCPT=rfc822;robin...@wapakiwi.reg.nz

....Thunderbird sets one recipient in the SMTP envelope.

At the same time, Thunderbird says it wants a "Delivery Status Notification" response
for any of: Successful delivery, Permanent Failure, or Email Delayed (= temporary error, retry later).

TECH REF: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3461#section-4.1


| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.033000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.033000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250 2.1.5 Ok

....Outbound mail server accepts the recipient and the "Delivery Status Notification" request
for that recipient.

| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.033000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 6
| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.033000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Send: DATA
|
| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.252000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.252000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 354 End data with <CR><LF>.<CR><LF>
| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.252000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 7
| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.252000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 8
| 2016-09-23 23:35:17.267000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Send: .

....This is Thunderbird sending the email (headers and body).

| 2016-09-23 23:35:18.267000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:18.267000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as 17916C07CA90

....Outbound mail server accepts the email.

| 2016-09-23 23:35:18.267000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 9
| 2016-09-23 23:35:18.267000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Send: QUIT
|
| 2016-09-23 23:35:18.267000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:18.377000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
| 2016-09-23 23:35:18.377000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 221 2.0.0 Bye


--
Kind regards
Ralph

[Ralph Fox]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 12:10:07 +1200, Ralph Fox wrote:

> I ran a test earlier today.
> 1) I enabled SMTP logging in Thunderbird
> https://wiki.mozilla.org/MailNews:Logging
> 2) I sent an email with 'Delivery Status Notification' turned on.
> 3) I checked the logs, which confirmed that Thunderbird had
> sent a request for delivery confirmation with the email,
> and that my outgoing mail server had accepted this request.
> 4) I checked the recipient mail server and confirmed that the
> email which I had sent has arrived there.
> 5) However, I have not as yet received a delivery confirmation.
> It appears that this recipient mail server does not provide
> delivery confirmation.

Late update: those delivery confirmations were sent. I found them in
my spam folder when I logged on to webmail.

[Wolf K.]

On 2016-09-23 23:41, Evan Platt wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Sep 2016 23:36:42 -0400, Mark Filipak

> <markfilip...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I guess that if I don't receive a bounce notice in the next few days I
>> should assume that the non-responding recipient did indeed receive it,
>> eh?
>

> No, not really. Some mail providers don't send bounces.
> Some mail providers don't acknowledge delivery receipt requests.
> Some do neither.

>
>> But actually, since I've sent the same message four times in the
>> last week-and-a-half, unless the recipient's email server is badly
>> misconfigured, I can assume that I've simply been put on ignore.
>

> Not really.. A mail server doing neither is a configuration choice,
> not a misconfiguration.

>
>> Comment: The recipient is my Ford dealer's Service Manager.
>

> Chances are the manager - or any other employee - has no say over the
> delivery confirmation settings of the mail server they run.......

But the Service Manager can choose to ignore an email. And if and when
it comes to a suit against Ford, they can claim they never got the
email, because if they had, they would have answered it. Of course!

With so much news recently about emails collected by the FBI and others,
people are becoming cagey about how they handle it.

BTW, I owned Fords, new and used, from 1974 to 2014. Never had any of
the problems that supposedly plague the brand. I quit when the local
dealership changed hands and service suffered.

Have a good day,

--
Best,
Wolf K.
kirkwood40.blogspot.ca

[Wolf K.]

On 2016-09-24 09:18, Evan Platt wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 09:14:12 -0400, "Wolf K." <wol...@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> But the Service Manager can choose to ignore an email. And if and when
>> it comes to a suit against Ford, they can claim they never got the
>> email, because if they had, they would have answered it. Of course!
>

> True - but a delivery confirmation is server based - Has nothing to do
> with what the end user does or doesn't do :)

Exactly. Which ties into Mike F's dilemma: he has no evidence that the
mails appeared in the Service Manager's inbox, still less that they
actually saw the emails; and he has no record of his calls to the
dealership.

Questions: How much metadata about a mail can be recovered from the
servers? Who decides how long to keep it? Etc.

[Mark Filipak]

On 09/24/2016 03:08 AM, Ralph Fox wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 02:16:59 -0400, Mark Filipak wrote:

> It is already built in to Thunderbird.
> See https://wiki.mozilla.org/MailNews:Logging
>
>
> Start Thunderbird with these two environment variables set
>
> NSPR_LOG_MODULES=SMTP:5,timestamp
> NSPR_LOG_FILE=/tmp/thunderbird__smtp.log ### or your choice of path/file
>
> Then send the "Delivery Status Notification" email message.
>
>
> Here is an annotated example of a log file:
>
> | 2016-09-23 23:35:13.408000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Connecting to: smtp.wapakiwi.reg.nz
> | 2016-09-23 23:35:15.674000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP entering state: 0
> | 2016-09-23 23:35:15.674000 UTC - 4792[1411140]: SMTP Response: 220 wapakiwi.reg.nz ESMTP ready
>
> ....Outbound mail server "greeting".

-snip- (see Ralph's original post for full details!)

Wow! Ralph, I declare you a champion. ...And thanks for posting this:

> NSPR_LOG_MODULES=SMTP:5,timestamp
> NSPR_LOG_FILE=/tmp/thunderbird__smtp.log ### or your choice of path/file

The text (https://wiki.mozilla.org/MailNews:Logging) doesn't provide
much of an example for Linux. My initial reaction: Too bad these are set
as environmental settings (requiring a script) instead of command line
parameters (which could simply be put into a menu's launcher argument
following the "thunderbird" command).

I will save your posting and the URL you supplied for further work in
the near future.

Thanks so much.

[Tanstaafl]

On 9/24/2016 3:08 AM, Ralph Fox <-rf...@xn--kba.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2016 02:16:59 -0400, Mark Filipak wrote:

>> Are you using Wireshark? I just switched to Linux and haven't installed
>> it yet (though I believe there is a version for Linux). Or are you maybe
>> using a T'bird add-in that's equivalent to the Firefox 'Live HTTP
>> headers' add-in?
>

> It is already built in to Thunderbird.
> See https://wiki.mozilla.org/MailNews:Logging
>
>
> Start Thunderbird with these two environment variables set
>
> NSPR_LOG_MODULES=SMTP:5,timestamp
> NSPR_LOG_FILE=/tmp/thunderbird__smtp.log ### or your choice of path/file
>
> Then send the "Delivery Status Notification" email message.

Wow, very cool... I think I saw that once a long time ago but had
forgotten about it.

It's now written down in my personal troubleshooting kit.

Thanks!