Code changes in Firefox 49 and the translation process

[Rhoslyn Prys]

It's not often I get grouchy with the Mozilla translation process but
Firefox 49 takes the biscuit...

If you wish to do wholesale code changes, please take care of them
yourselves. Please do not ask me to do so.

I'll be seeing ‘,’ ‘)’ '%1$S' in my sleep. ;-(

Rhos

[Michael Bauer]

Awa you got to be kidding... is that why there are 10% changed strings
in Firefox? I hadn't looked yet.

Michael

Sgrìobh Rhoslyn Prys na leanas 16/06/2016 aig 09:32:

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[Francesco Lodolo]

Can you guys elaborate on the issue? Are we talking about Firefox or other
products? The only mass change I'm aware is the quotes change, and it
happened mostly 2 cycles ago.

Also not sure why I miss Rhos' first message in my mailbox.

Francesco

> <http://www.xn--igidhlig-0ya.net> <http://www.iGaidhlig.net/>

[Baurzhan Muftakhidinov]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net> wrote:
> Can you guys elaborate on the issue? Are we talking about Firefox or other
> products? The only mass change I'm aware is the quotes change, and it
> happened mostly 2 cycles ago.

Hi, yes it is in current cycle, the current state of Aurora on Pootle.

So we should've change quotes in translated messages as well?
I just approved all old messages. We use double quotes anyway

Thanks,

[Rhoslyn Prys]

Yes, it's the quotes changes that have appeared in Pootle for Firefox 49.

I'm here to do translation not mess about at length with code - 4000+/-
lines.

It needs to be done in another way, sorry.
Rhos

Ar 16/06/2016 10:51, ysgrifennodd Francesco Lodolo:
> Can you guys elaborate on the issue? Are we talking about Firefox or other
> products? The only mass change I'm aware is the quotes change, and it
> happened mostly 2 cycles ago.
>

[Francesco Lodolo]

It depends on the rules you set for your own locales: if you don't have any
rule, it's probably a good reminder to create them (style guide) ;-)

Francesco

2016-06-16 10:57 GMT+01:00 Baurzhan Muftakhidinov <baurth...@gmail.com>:

> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net> wrote:

> > Can you guys elaborate on the issue? Are we talking about Firefox or
> other
> > products? The only mass change I'm aware is the quotes change, and it
> > happened mostly 2 cycles ago.
>
>
>

> Hi, yes it is in current cycle, the current state of Aurora on Pootle.
>
> So we should've change quotes in translated messages as well?
> I just approved all old messages. We use double quotes anyway
>
> Thanks,

[Francesco Lodolo]

2016-06-16 11:46 GMT+01:00 Rhoslyn Prys <rp...@yahoo.com>:

> Yes, it's the quotes changes that have appeared in Pootle for Firefox 49.
>
> I'm here to do translation not mess about at length with code - 4000+/-
> lines.
>
> It needs to be done in another way, sorry.
>
>

What other ways would work in your opinion? The strings were changed
without changing string IDs for this specific reason (don't invalidate
hundreds of strings), locales working directly on Mercurial won't notice
the difference.

As far as I can tell, Matjaz did a manual change in the DB for Pontoon
(that's why I'm saying they were in the previous cycle, not 49). I think
Dwayne tried to do the same for Pootle, but probably not for all the
strings. Only a bunch of strings remained and were fixed in 49.

As painful as it is, I don't think there were other ways to do it on the
code's side. On the other hand, it would have helped having an easy way to
mass unfuzzy strings on Pootle (I don't there is).

Francesco

[Leandro Regueiro]

2016-06-16 11:57 GMT+02:00 Baurzhan Muftakhidinov <baurth...@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 2:51 PM, Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net> wrote:
>> Can you guys elaborate on the issue? Are we talking about Firefox or other
>> products? The only mass change I'm aware is the quotes change, and it
>> happened mostly 2 cycles ago.
>
>
>
> Hi, yes it is in current cycle, the current state of Aurora on Pootle.
>
> So we should've change quotes in translated messages as well?
> I just approved all old messages. We use double quotes anyway

Hi,
in the last release another change re quoting (actually apostrophes)
happened https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-aurora/rev/0af3c129a366#l37.12
Related bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1268159


Bye

> Thanks,

[Francesco Lodolo]

Thanks Leandro, it makes more sense now. I didn't realize the size of
changes landed in the second batch (I was going through hg history to
check).

Francesco

[Mihovil Stanić]

Dwayne shoud just change quotes in en_us and not mark strings as fuzzy.
Quotes change isn't important, whoever cared about that, already changed
them in their locale.

[Kevin Scannell]

2016-06-16 6:07 GMT-05:00 Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net>:
>
> 2016-06-16 11:46 GMT+01:00 Rhoslyn Prys <rp...@yahoo.com>:
>
> > Yes, it's the quotes changes that have appeared in Pootle for Firefox 49.
> >
> > I'm here to do translation not mess about at length with code - 4000+/-
> > lines.
> >
> > It needs to be done in another way, sorry.
> >
> >
> What other ways would work in your opinion? The strings were changed
> without changing string IDs for this specific reason (don't invalidate
> hundreds of strings), locales working directly on Mercurial won't notice
> the difference.
>

I wasted many hours on hundreds of these trivial changes in the last
cycle, and it looks like there are more again this cycle.

An easy solution would be to stop privileging en-US and treat it like
any other locale, with the source strings thought of as something like
a "C" locale. Then if someone has the great idea that English (US)
should have curly quotes, they can have at it without impacting 80+
other teams.

Kevin

[Michael Bauer]

+1

Michael

Sgrìobh Kevin Scannell na leanas 16/06/2016 aig 12:24:

> I wasted many hours on hundreds of these trivial changes in the last
> cycle, and it looks like there are more again this cycle.
>
> An easy solution would be to stop privileging en-US and treat it like
> any other locale, with the source strings thought of as something like
> a "C" locale. Then if someone has the great idea that English (US)
> should have curly quotes, they can have at it without impacting 80+
> other teams.
>
> Kevin

--
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Goireasan Gàidhlig air an lìon
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*Tha Gàidhlig aig a' choimpiutair agad, siuthad, feuch e!*
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<http://www.iGaidhlig.net/>

[Mihovil Stanić]

I fear that Mozilla just crossed a line with this, and will drive some
locales away from Firefox.

I know I wouldn't touch FF with 7000+ untranslated strings when it was
100% few weeks ago.
But since I'm not main FF translator for HR locale, main translator will
decide for him self.

Mihovil

[Michael Wolf]

Kevin Scannell schrieb:

>
> I wasted many hours on hundreds of these trivial changes in the last
> cycle, and it looks like there are more again this cycle.
>
> An easy solution would be to stop privileging en-US and treat it like
> any other locale, with the source strings thought of as something like
> a "C" locale. Then if someone has the great idea that English (US)
> should have curly quotes, they can have at it without impacting 80+
> other teams.
>

I agree and, I have to do the work for two languages.


Michael W.

[Francesco Lodolo]

I'll ask again: in what other way would you have solved the issue of
updating English? Because clearly you can't stop English from making
updates, exactly like we can't stop locales from doing them for improving
their quality.

What you're describing is a specific tool issue, not Mozilla's as a whole
as some of you are saying, that I agree should be evaluated or at least
discussed before going in and doing manual approvals for hundreds of
strings. Has anyone tried to do that with Pootle's developers?

Francesco

2016-06-16 12:57 GMT+01:00 Mihovil Stanić <mih...@miho.im>:

> I fear that Mozilla just crossed a line with this, and will drive some
> locales away from Firefox.
>
> I know I wouldn't touch FF with 7000+ untranslated strings when it was
> 100% few weeks ago.
> But since I'm not main FF translator for HR locale, main translator will
> decide for him self.
>
> Mihovil
>
> 16.06.2016 u 13:48, Michael Bauer je napisao/la:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> Sgrìobh Kevin Scannell na leanas 16/06/2016 aig 12:24:
>>

>>> I wasted many hours on hundreds of these trivial changes in the last
>>> cycle, and it looks like there are more again this cycle.
>>>
>>> An easy solution would be to stop privileging en-US and treat it like
>>> any other locale, with the source strings thought of as something like
>>> a "C" locale. Then if someone has the great idea that English (US)
>>> should have curly quotes, they can have at it without impacting 80+
>>> other teams.
>>>

>>> Kevin

[Mícheál J. Ó Meachair]

100% agree. Well spotted, Kevin.
I'm a quite surprised it wasn't always treated this way.

mjm
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Beir bua,
Mícheál J. Ó Meachair

[Michael Bauer]

If the Source has
Open '%s'
and the en-US want to implement ' > ‘’ then the only way they can
currently do that is by changing the Source to
Open ‘%s’
and messing around all other locales. But if, as Kevin suggested, en-US
was not the same as the source but another localization locale, then you
could leave
Open '%s'
and the localizers for en-US (pretend it's like hi-IN) could change to
Open ‘%s’
to their hearts content without messing the rest of the world around.

The Source (what Kevin called C) would only be changed if there was a
content change e.g.
Open '%s' » Open '%s' via the browser

Michael

Sgrìobh Francesco Lodolo na leanas 16/06/2016 aig 13:19:

> I'll ask again: in what other way would you have solved the issue of
> updating English? Because clearly you can't stop English from making
> updates, exactly like we can't stop locales from doing them for improving
> their quality.
>
> What you're describing is a specific tool issue, not Mozilla's as a whole
> as some of you are saying, that I agree should be evaluated or at least
> discussed before going in and doing manual approvals for hundreds of
> strings. Has anyone tried to do that with Pootle's developers?
>
> Francesco

[Rhoslyn Prys]

In future it would be good to have a warning/dscussion about this type
of change and whether it effects our locale or not. From what I've read
so far I could have ignored these changes. There are also issues for the
Firefox devs to consider as Kevin points out.

In the meantime, is there something that could be done via Pootle to
lessen the amount of work involved? Pootle is telling me I've got 278
string such as :

The “coords” attribute of the <area shape="poly"> tag is missing the
last “y” coordinate (the correct format is “x1,y1,x2,y2 …”).

to change each one of the quotes - not good.

Ar 16/06/2016 12:24, ysgrifennodd Kevin Scannell:
> 2016-06-16 6:07 GMT-05:00 Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net>:
>> 2016-06-16 11:46 GMT+01:00 Rhoslyn Prys <rp...@yahoo.com>:
>>
>>> Yes, it's the quotes changes that have appeared in Pootle for Firefox 49.
>>>
>>> I'm here to do translation not mess about at length with code - 4000+/-
>>> lines.
>>>
>>> It needs to be done in another way, sorry.
>>>
>>>
>> What other ways would work in your opinion? The strings were changed
>> without changing string IDs for this specific reason (don't invalidate
>> hundreds of strings), locales working directly on Mercurial won't notice
>> the difference.
>>

> I wasted many hours on hundreds of these trivial changes in the last
> cycle, and it looks like there are more again this cycle.
>
> An easy solution would be to stop privileging en-US and treat it like
> any other locale, with the source strings thought of as something like
> a "C" locale. Then if someone has the great idea that English (US)
> should have curly quotes, they can have at it without impacting 80+
> other teams.
>

> Kevin

[Dwayne Bailey]

Let me, as a Pootle dev, jump in here. I spent some time trying to figure
out how we can role this out with minimal fallout. I managed to do with
with some other changes, that you didn't even hear about. But I honestly
couldn't figure out one with this.

I didn't figure it would be this big tbh. Looking at Afrikaans I'm seeing
72 units with double quote issues and 99 with single quote. In Croatian
its 199, 110. I probably should have looked more carefully into 100%
translated languages.

The issue to me is this. A string changed, it's rather difficult to
determine if its a non-change or a real change. The not changing the 'key'
is just a social contract that I've seen broken before in Mozilla
translation files.

Pootle sees any change as being something you want to review. I know some
teams would want to use curly quotes instead of straight quotes in which
cases thy can handle the fuzzies and are doing that. But obviously there
are teams who don't care for the quote style at all. No matter how well I
automate this I really think the best reviewer is a human, to prevent any
potential errors.

There are two ways to address this:

1. Filter by the quote check in Pootle and you can step through these
units quickly and unfuzzy them yourself. The TM will provide a quick and
clear view about what changed. See
https://mozilla.locamotion.org/cy/firefox/translate/browser/chrome/browser/browser.properties.po#unit=21543770
the unit fails the 'doublequote' check and the TM clearly shows the only
difference is the quotes. Rhos is then clear that the change is a simple
quote issue and can move quickly through the units.
2. I will look at some manual fix options, let me know if you want me to
look at your language and I'll try figure out an automated fix. If I find
a reliable one, I'll simply role that out to everyone.

Trust that helps.

> <http://www.xn--igidhlig-0ya.net> <http://www.iGaidhlig.net/>

> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
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> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>

--
Dwayne

*Translate*
+27 12 460 1095 (work)

[Dwayne Bailey]

Cool found a solution. I'll start rolling this out to Pootle languages
starting with gd, cy, hsb, dsb and hr. After that I'll focus on the rest.

This will unfuzzy units with quote check failures as well as units with
curly quote in e.g. It’s.

There is of course the small risk that there are units that need human
review so I would recommend that you please do the following:

1. Review, correct or mute all occurrences of singlequoting and
doublequoting errors
2. Search for ’ in the source text and review those for correct
translation

For both of these you should have the advantage of TM to guide you as to
what the translation was previously.

This should radically reduce the fuzzy units you needed to review and allow
you to review the changes at your leisure.

Apologies for the interruption and I appreciate your patience.

[Francesco Lodolo]

This should have been at least part of the l10n report, sadly it happened
right in the middle of the team's changes and I missed it (also misjudged
the amount of strings involved). Also kind of surprised to not hear about
this for the change landed in the previous cycle.

Francesco

[Rhoslyn Prys]

Thanks Dwayne, that's made part of the task much easier. However:

1. Review, correct or mute all occurrences of singlequoting and

doublequoting errors - *120 instances**to be checked*

2. Search for ’ in the source text and review those for correct

translation - *946 instances to be checked*

**This should radically reduce the fuzzy units you needed to review and allow you to review the changes_at your leisure_.*Hmmm... *
Jeff/Flod: Can lessons be learnt from this?**

and Wales were beaten 2-1 at footie... ;-(
Rhos
**

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> dev-l10n mailing list
>>> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
>>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
>>>
>>
>>

[Francesco Lodolo]

I think a first lesson to learn from this thread is about communication:
the immediate thing to do when you found yourself in front of this crazy
amount of strings should have been to stop and ask us and Dwayne "what the
heck is going on?". Errors happen, on all sides, we can fix them only if
someone reports them.

Venting about Mozilla is not going to fix issues, or help making the
environment friendlier, as much as I understand how frustrating it is
finding yourself in front of these situations. Communication, on the other
hand, can help.

As for treating English as "just another language", I'm not completely sure
is technically viable, or good even in theory (I'd have to think more about
it though).
These days we change the string IDs every time a string significantly
changes. It didn't in this case, because the change wasn't relevant for all
locales. And, just to make sure it's clear, only locales working on Pootle
were affected. Thanks for Dwayne for working on trying to find a fix on
this.

Francesco

[Jeff Beatty]

Hi all,

First and foremost, thank you to Rhoslyn for reporting this. Without that
report, I think many more locales would have been affected. Let's continue
to ask questions when we see strange happenings in our l10n projects and
assume good will.

Immediately, I'm not sure what lessons we can learn. I think we need to
have a discussion about how this came up and why we may not have fully
anticipated the impact. Perhaps it was a lack of coordination on our end to
ensure that localizers across all tools wouldn't be heavily impacted.
Perhaps there are others. We'll continue to investigate and determine what
we can do in the future to minimize the impact to you for such changes.
Apologies for the inconvenience and we hope it hasn't negatively impacted
your weekend.

Jeff

[Michael Bauer]

Errr yes, though the first stage of mis-communication was from Mozilla >
Translators. And I feel that venting is bandied about a bit liberally
these days (not just on Mozilla), it's beginning to feel patronizing.
Sure, we're all working towards the same goal but it's a bit much to
expect people to always remain calm, cool and collected even if the same
problem has occurred before on many occasions and what Rhoslyn did was
hardly venting - there were no expletives or foul language or even
screaming. He was, at best, griping.

It feels a bit like we need to take everything on the chin but heaven
forfend if a dev gets to see a strongly worded sentence...

Michael

Sgrìobh Francesco Lodolo na leanas 16/06/2016 aig 17:47:

> I think a first lesson to learn from this thread is about communication:
> the immediate thing to do when you found yourself in front of this crazy
> amount of strings should have been to stop and ask us and Dwayne "what the
> heck is going on?". Errors happen, on all sides, we can fix them only if
> someone reports them.
>
> Venting about Mozilla is not going to fix issues, or help making the
> environment friendlier, as much as I understand how frustrating it is
> finding yourself in front of these situations. Communication, on the other
> hand, can help.

--
*Akerbeltz <http://www.faclair.com/>*
Goireasan Gàidhlig air an lìon
Fòn: +44-141-946 4437
Facs: +44-141-945 2701

*Tha Gàidhlig aig a' choimpiutair agad, siuthad, feuch e!*
Iomadh rud eadar prògraman oifis, brabhsairean, predictive texting,
geamannan is mòran a bharrachd. Tadhail oirnn aig www.iGàidhlig.net

<http://www.iGaidhlig.net/>

[Francesco Lodolo]

I'll say it more time and stop, because I don't think I'm making good use
of everyone's inbox.

If you find issues, please come to us and ask, we're here to help in any
way we can. If you don't, nothing is going to happen.

The problem here was not communication, it was more a miscalculation of
impact on all tools, combined with lack of reaction the first time it
happened.

Francesco

[Selim Şumlu]

16 Haziran 2016 Perşembe 17:23:07 UTC+3 tarihinde Dwayne Bailey yazdı:

> Cool found a solution. I'll start rolling this out to Pootle languages
> starting with gd, cy, hsb, dsb and hr. After that I'll focus on the rest.

Hi Dwayne,

We do want to use curly quotes and will work on fuzzies, so please don't mess with Turkish. :)

[Dwayne Bailey]

Hi Selim,

Afraid I've already cleaned Turkish up :(. But not an issue, have a look
at these 3 steps and you will find them all:

1.
https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#filter=checks&checks=doublequoting&unit=17436675
2.
https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#filter=checks&checks=singlequoting&unit=17419436
3.
https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#search=%E2%80%99&sfields=source&unit=21617139

I can revert if you'd like me to, just let me know

[Rhoslyn Prys]

Ok, issue mainly resolved for me.
The main issue and learning here is around a decision made in April to
change from straight quotes to curly quotes, possibly without the
realization of the effect down the line, see:

https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1268159#c6 see Comment 6.

This generated changes in 4000+ strings in Aurora on Pootle compared to
Flod's report:
• Firefox Aurora desktop has 179 added strings (125 obsolete). About 36%
of the new strings are for Developer Tools.

At this point I should have contacted Flod to query the dicrepancy,
instead of getting on with it and getting frustrated and grouchy. Sorry
about that.

However, I'm concerned about the 'effect down the line' bit. I have no
experience in software development to offer any suggestions. I'm sure
it's happened before and will happen again, but possibly all tools need
to be checked before release to check that everything is OK.

Rhos

* Flod: I'm not seeing my messages on the list either.

[Francesco Lodolo]

Now we know that Pontoon doesn't react to string changes in en-US, while
Pootle does, fuzzying them.

There are plans of rewriting the messages in Firefox to have a consistent
voice, and when that happens we'll need to understand how to do it without
invalidating hundreds of strings, if the changes are subtle enough to not
affect localizations.

As for your messages, I have no clue why but they end up directly in spam
in my account; they still show up in Google Groups
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.l10n/Ze28ytkD_f8/e6VdAwvxAwAJ

I wonder if that's a configuration/SMTP problem, and if that happens using
the webmail.

Francesco

2016-06-17 10:15 GMT+01:00 Rhoslyn Prys <rp...@yahoo.com>:

> Ok, issue mainly resolved for me.
> The main issue and learning here is around a decision made in April to
> change from straight quotes to curly quotes, possibly without the
> realization of the effect down the line, see:
>
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1268159#c6 see Comment 6.
>
> This generated changes in 4000+ strings in Aurora on Pootle compared to
> Flod's report:
> • Firefox Aurora desktop has 179 added strings (125 obsolete). About 36%
> of the new strings are for Developer Tools.
>
> At this point I should have contacted Flod to query the dicrepancy,
> instead of getting on with it and getting frustrated and grouchy. Sorry
> about that.
>
> However, I'm concerned about the 'effect down the line' bit. I have no
> experience in software development to offer any suggestions. I'm sure it's
> happened before and will happen again, but possibly all tools need to be
> checked before release to check that everything is OK.
>
> Rhos
>
> * Flod: I'm not seeing my messages on the list either.
>
>
>
>
>
> Ar 17/06/2016 09:33, ysgrifennodd Selim Şumlu:
>

[Selim Şumlu]

No need to revert. Those should work fine.

Thanks!

2016-06-17 12:08 GMT+03:00 Dwayne Bailey <dwa...@translate.org.za>:

>
>
> On 17 June 2016 at 09:33, Selim Şumlu <se...@sum.lu> wrote:
>

> Hi Selim,
>
> Afraid I've already cleaned Turkish up :(. But not an issue, have a look
> at these 3 steps and you will find them all:
>
> 1.
> https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#filter=checks&checks=doublequoting&unit=17436675
> 2.
> https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#filter=checks&checks=singlequoting&unit=17419436
> 3.
> https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#search=%E2%80%99&sfields=source&unit=21617139
>
> I can revert if you'd like me to, just let me know
>

[Dwayne Bailey]

Great!


Just to be clear all languages are now updated and you should try to look
at the issues I highlighted for Turkish.

On 17 June 2016 at 11:32, Selim Şumlu <se...@sum.lu> wrote:

> No need to revert. Those should work fine.
>
> Thanks!
>
> 2016-06-17 12:08 GMT+03:00 Dwayne Bailey <dwa...@translate.org.za>:
>
>>
>>
>> On 17 June 2016 at 09:33, Selim Şumlu <se...@sum.lu> wrote:
>>

>> Hi Selim,
>>
>> Afraid I've already cleaned Turkish up :(. But not an issue, have a look
>> at these 3 steps and you will find them all:
>>
>> 1.
>> https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#filter=checks&checks=doublequoting&unit=17436675
>> 2.
>> https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#filter=checks&checks=singlequoting&unit=17419436
>> 3.
>> https://mozilla.locamotion.org/tr/firefox/translate/#search=%E2%80%99&sfields=source&unit=21617139
>>
>> I can revert if you'd like me to, just let me know
>>

[Michael Wolf]

Hi,

so, which quotes are recommended for the future? English curly quotes or
national typographical quotes? Sorbian languages use (as German) 9 below
and 6 above resp. 99 below and 66 above (‚‘ resp. „“).

Regards,

Michael

[Dwayne Bailey]

Hi Michael,

This is dictated by your language's convention, which you've outlined. So
I'd recommend that you use the characters that follow the typographic
choices Firefox is making here but use them as your language orthography
dictates.

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[Michael Wolf]

Dwayne Bailey schrieb:

>
> This is dictated by your language's convention, which you've outlined. So
> I'd recommend that you use the characters that follow the typographic
> choices Firefox is making here but use them as your language orthography
> dictates.
>

Thank you Dwayne, that's a deal!


Michael