Re: Substitution font

[Matjaz Horvat]

Hi Ibrahima,

Peiying is traveling ATM, so I'll try to answer to the extent where I
understand the situation. You should get more details once she returns.

Mozilla.org uses the Open Sans font, which doesn't support all of the Fulah
glyphs sadly:
https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans

As a consequence, those glyphs get replaced by the fallback system font and
make the page unacceptably ugly.

I see two possible solutions to this:

1. We can patch the font like we already did in the past:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=907793

2. For Fulah localization of Mozilla.org, we can replace Open Sans entirely
with a font that support all Fulah glyphs. (Ideally we could find a font
that supports all scripts and use it for all locales, but I'm afraid such
font does not exist).

-Matjaž

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 4:35 PM, Ibrahima SARR <ibrahi...@pulaagu.com>
wrote:

> Hi all
> I wanted to point out that the fonts used on mozilla.org website does not
> fully support Fulah. I actually raised this a long time ago. Since Mozilla
> is a global browser localized in dozens of languages, this should have been
> solved long ago. I don't know the technical details of font usage on the
> website but it is ugly to see unsupported glyphs being substituted randomly
> with others without even matching font weight.
> Here are a few examples on pictures enclosed. Any feedback on this?
>
> Cheers Ibrahima
>
> _______________________________________________
> L10n-drivers mailing list
> L10n-d...@mozilla.org
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/l10n-drivers
>
>

[Ibrahima SARR]

Hi Matjaž
Thank you very much for replying.
I think it should ne easier to add the missing glyphs as there are only
four of them:
ŋ (U+014B) / Ŋ (U+014A)
ɗ (U+0257) / Ɗ (U+018A)
ƴ (U+01B4) / Ƴ (U+01B3)
ɓ (U+0253) / Ɓ (U+0181)
ñ (U+00F1) / Ñ (U+00D1) (is already supported)

In the early nineties, before Windows supported Unicode, I used to modify
fonts myself with an old program called Type Designer replacing VXQZ that
don't exist in Fulah with the above listed (I still have the the floppy in
its box :). Now it should be easier to add Extended Latin B support and it
will do the trick.

Cheers
Ibrahima

[Jeff Beatty]

Glad to hear that there's a reasonable fix!

So is the next step to patch Open Sans? Is there already a bug on file? Is
that something we should ask Creative to do or, since Ibrahima already has
some experience here, is that something you'd like to do?

Thanks,
Jeff

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Ibrahima SARR <ibrahi...@pulaagu.com>

--
Thanks,
Jeff

[Jonathan Kew]

On 24/04/2017 14:26, Jeff Beatty wrote:
> Glad to hear that there's a reasonable fix!
>
> So is the next step to patch Open Sans? Is there already a bug on file? Is
> that something we should ask Creative to do or, since Ibrahima already has
> some experience here, is that something you'd like to do?

I'm not sure we should be too eager to dive into patching Open Sans here.

This case is not comparable to bug 907793, where we fixed a glyph
mapping error in the font; here, we'd need to create new glyph shapes,
which typically means regenerating the entire font with a font-design
tool... at which point there is a risk of degrading the rendering of
-all- the glyphs, unless we know exactly what toolchain, options, etc
were originally used. For example, if we pull Open Sans into FontForge,
add some glyphs, and generate a new font, most likely (by default, at
least) all the existing hinting will be lost and replaced by new
auto-hinting that may not be equivalent...

Tread carefully. Better, IMO, to file an issue against the upstream Open
Sans project, and see if that can get any traction. And/or look for an
alternative font that includes the necessary character repertoire.

JK

[Jeff Beatty]

Thanks Jonathan, I'm really glad you stepped in (obviously not a subject
I'm 100% familiar with). I'm struggling to find where to file a bug for
OpenSans, do you happen to know? I've seen a few possible repo forks, but
that's it.

In the meantime, since Ibrahima is the one to notice the issue, it would be
great if you would file a bug and CC Peiying on it (if you haven't filed
one already) to suggest an alternative font.

Thank,s
Jeff

--
Thanks,
Jeff

[Jonathan Kew]

On 24/04/2017 14:47, Jeff Beatty wrote:
> Thanks Jonathan, I'm really glad you stepped in (obviously not a subject
> I'm 100% familiar with). I'm struggling to find where to file a bug for
> OpenSans, do you happen to know? I've seen a few possible repo forks,
> but that's it.

I'm not sure, TBH. It looks like Google claims the copyright; the actual
design was done by Steve Matteson of Ascender (now part of Monotype,
IIUC), but I don't know if any "original" sources are available in a
public repo or open-source project. I suspect they may have just
released the generated TrueType files under the Apache license, but the
design masters - in whatever form those are - may be an in-house thing.

Given that it's distributed by Google, I guess filing a bug on the
Google Fonts package is probably as good a place as any. There's

https://github.com/google/fonts/tree/master/apache/opensans

with the usual "issues" mechanism, and there's a "feedback" link at

https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Open+Sans?selection.family=Open+Sans

However, I'm not optimistic we'll get a useful response any time soon; I
don't think the font is being actively developed further at this point.
So exploring alternatives is probably the best way forward for now.

JK

> <ibrahi...@pulaagu.com <mailto:ibrahi...@pulaagu.com>>

> wrote:
>
> Hi Matjaž
> Thank you very much for replying.
> I think it should ne easier to add the missing glyphs as
> there are only
> four of them:
> ŋ (U+014B) / Ŋ (U+014A)
> ɗ (U+0257) / Ɗ (U+018A)
> ƴ (U+01B4) / Ƴ (U+01B3)
> ɓ (U+0253) / Ɓ (U+0181)
> ñ (U+00F1) / Ñ (U+00D1) (is already supported)
>
> In the early nineties, before Windows supported Unicode, I
> used to modify
> fonts myself with an old program called Type Designer
> replacing VXQZ that
> don't exist in Fulah with the above listed (I still have the
> the floppy in
> its box :). Now it should be easier to add Extended Latin B
> support and it
> will do the trick.
>
> Cheers
> Ibrahima
>
> 2017-04-24 11:21 GMT+02:00 Matjaz Horvat <mat...@mozilla.com

> <mailto:mat...@mozilla.com>>:

> <mailto:ibrahi...@pulaagu.com>

>
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi all
> I wanted to point out that the fonts used on

> mozilla.org <http://mozilla.org> website does

> not fully support Fulah. I actually raised this a
> long time ago. Since
> Mozilla is a global browser localized in dozens of
> languages, this should
> have been solved long ago. I don't know the
> technical details of font usage
> on the website but it is ugly to see unsupported
> glyphs being substituted
> randomly with others without even matching font weight.
> Here are a few examples on pictures enclosed. Any
> feedback on this?
>
> Cheers Ibrahima
>
> _______________________________________________
> L10n-drivers mailing list
> L10n-d...@mozilla.org

> <mailto:L10n-d...@mozilla.org>
> https://mail.mozilla.org/listinfo/l10n-drivers

[Michal Kec (MiK)]

Matjaz Horvat napsal(a):

> 2. For Fulah localization of Mozilla.org, we can replace Open Sans entirely
> with a font that support all Fulah glyphs. (Ideally we could find a font
> that supports all scripts and use it for all locales, but I'm afraid such
> font does not exist).

Hi all,
how about using the Noto font family from Google?

"Noto helps to make the web more beautiful across platforms for all
languages. Currently, Noto covers over 30 scripts, and will cover all of
Unicode in the future."
https://fonts.google.com/specimen/Noto+Sans

"The next version of the Noto fonts will implement it" (Nov 16, 2016)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_alphabets

http://www.google.com/get/noto/
https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts

Best regards,
MiK

--
SeaMonkey - just suits me. :-)
http://www.seamonkey-project.org/

[Tin Aung Lin]

Noto would be good choice. It also have different types of fonts for different systems. Rarely it supports even our script.

> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list
> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n

[Andrew Cunningham]

Noto will probably need some additional work to make it suitable. Addition
of some alternative glyphs. Adding some character variant features.

Re Open Sans best to ping Dave Crossland. A lot of work is going on with
various Latin Script fonts hosted in Google Font Directory.

But from memory some of the missing Fula characters fall outside the
character repetoire that GFD supports.

GFD subsets the fonts removing characters not in the supported repetoire.
So unlikely they would add charactrrs they don't support.

Andrew

--
Andrew Cunningham
lang.s...@gmail.com

[Francesco Lodolo]

Hi,
first of all thanks for reporting the issue. But please file a bug in
www.mozilla.org to get the discussion started, there's not much point
in discussing it further here: none of the stakeholders for
mozilla.org is following this mailing list, and it doesn't help to
split the discussion in multiple places.
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=www.mozilla.org&component=Pages%20%26%20Content

Organizational notes:
* dev-l10n-web is a better pick for questions related to mozilla.org:
https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-web
* I've cleaned up the list of CC. Sending the email to the mailing
list is enough, no need to add individuals to CC; they're all already
watching the mailing list

Francesco

[Ibrahima SARR]

Hi all,

​@Flod: You are the only one who has not said a word about FONT ISSUE!
Instead, you are souding quite preachy to the extent of insinuating people
are not free to dicuss​ whatever is useful or even CC people they want.
Very strange!

What YOU don't know is that this has been discussed 5 years ago and there
was even a bug (!), which confirms I know when, how and where to file a bug
(look here
​
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=776967) how_bug.cgi?id=776967).
No, there is no splitting discussion in multiple places as you said. Issue
has simply not been addressed by filing a bug.
That said...

And this is NOT a bug! It is a strategic error on Mozilla's part to use
fonts that are only limited to a few European languages on a website that
claims to be global, with so many locales from around the world. The same
issue happened with Firefox OS, which should not be allowed to happen as
(again) FFOS shipped dozens of locales. Typography is an important part of
localization, I would even say essential. I humbly think Fonts bring
translations to life, so they should be a priority
Many African languages (including Fulah, Hausa) use glyphs included in the
LATIN EXTENDED B block of the Unicode standard and should be supported by
dozens of Open fonts. So 5 years ago, I never thought I'd have to discuss
this again, let alone get unnecessarily upsetting responses.

Thank you anyway
Ibrahima

[Francesco Lodolo [:flod]]

Il 29/04/17 08.51, Ibrahima SARR ha scritto:

> ​@Flod: You are the only one who has not said a word about FONT ISSUE!
> Instead, you are souding quite preachy to the extent of insinuating
> people are not free to dicuss​ whatever is useful or even CC people
> they want. Very strange!

I didn't say anything because there's nothing to add to what everyone
already said, you included: it's a bug, we're using a font that doesn't
support all glyphs for the languages that we have enabled on the website.

My point is: we can discuss about fonts that might solve the problem, or
the poor approach in terms of internationalization, but it's not going
to solve the immediate problem, and I'd like to see it solved. Only a
bug with a clear explanation of the issue, like you did in the first
email, is going to put the problem in front of the right developers and
stakeholders.

mozilla.org internationalization is far from perfect, but it's also far
from being utterly broken. We have support for alternative fonts, we
just need to identify one that works for Fulah, with the right license,
and use it.

As for the CC list, I simply pointed out that all l10n-drivers follow
closely the mailing list. Consider it as a personal request, since I'm
receiving every reply to this thread 3 times in different mailboxes.

As a final request, please always assume the best intentions when
interacting with other people in the community.

Francesco

>
> What YOU don't know is that this has been discussed 5 years ago and
> there was even a bug (!), which confirms I know when, how and where to
> file a bug (look here
> ​
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=776967)
> how_bug.cgi?id=776967). No, there is no splitting discussion in
> multiple places as you said. Issue has simply not been addressed by
> filing a bug.
> That said...
>
> And this is NOT a bug! It is a strategic error on Mozilla's part to
> use fonts that are only limited to a few European languages on a
> website that claims to be global, with so many locales from around the
> world. The same issue happened with Firefox OS, which should not be
> allowed to happen as (again) FFOS shipped dozens of locales.
> Typography is an important part of localization, I would even say
> essential. I humbly think Fonts bring translations to life, so they
> should be a priority
> Many African languages (including Fulah, Hausa) use glyphs included in
> the LATIN EXTENDED B block of the Unicode standard and should be
> supported by dozens of Open fonts. So 5 years ago, I never thought I'd
> have to discuss this again, let alone get unnecessarily upsetting
> responses.
>
> Thank you anyway
> Ibrahima
>
> 2017-04-25 1:32 GMT+02:00 Francesco Lodolo <fl...@lodolo.net

> <mailto:fl...@lodolo.net>>:

>
> Hi,
> first of all thanks for reporting the issue. But please file a bug in

> www.mozilla.org <http://www.mozilla.org> to get the discussion

> started, there's not much point
> in discussing it further here: none of the stakeholders for

> mozilla.org <http://mozilla.org> is following this mailing list,

> and it doesn't help to
> split the discussion in multiple places.
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=www.mozilla.org&component=Pages%20%26%20Content

> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=www.mozilla.org&component=Pages%20%26%20Content>

>
> Organizational notes:
> * dev-l10n-web is a better pick for questions related to

> mozilla.org <http://mozilla.org>:
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-web

> <https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n-web>
> * I've cleaned up the list of CC. Sending the email to the mailing
> list is enough, no need to add individuals to CC; they're all already
> watching the mailing list
>
> Francesco
>
>
> 2017-04-25 6:40 GMT+08:00 Andrew Cunningham

> <lang.s...@gmail.com <mailto:lang.s...@gmail.com>>:

> > Noto will probably need some additional work to make it
> suitable. Addition
> > of some alternative glyphs. Adding some character variant features.
> >
> > Re Open Sans best to ping Dave Crossland. A lot of work is going
> on with
> > various Latin Script fonts hosted in Google Font Directory.
> >
> > But from memory some of the missing Fula characters fall outside the
> > character repetoire that GFD supports.
> >
> > GFD subsets the fonts removing characters not in the supported
> repetoire.
> > So unlikely they would add charactrrs they don't support.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > On Tuesday, 25 April 2017, Tin Aung Lin

> <tinaungl...@gmail.com <mailto:tinaungl...@gmail.com>>

> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_alphabets>
> >>>
> >>> http://www.google.com/get/noto/ <http://www.google.com/get/noto/>
> >>> https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts

> <https://github.com/googlei18n/noto-fonts>
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>> MiK
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> SeaMonkey - just suits me. :-)
> >>> http://www.seamonkey-project.org/
> <http://www.seamonkey-project.org/>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> dev-l10n mailing list

> >>> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:dev-...@lists.mozilla.org>
> >>> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n

> <https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> dev-l10n mailing list

> >> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:dev-...@lists.mozilla.org>
> >> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n

> <https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Andrew Cunningham

> > lang.s...@gmail.com <mailto:lang.s...@gmail.com>
> > _______________________________________________
> > dev-l10n mailing list
> > dev-...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:dev-...@lists.mozilla.org>
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n

> <https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n>
> _______________________________________________
> dev-l10n mailing list

> dev-...@lists.mozilla.org <mailto:dev-...@lists.mozilla.org>
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n
> <https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-l10n>
>
>

[Kohei Yoshino]

The current Fulah font issue has been filed by :flod as https://bugzil.la/1360812

The subset hack I implemented in https://bugzil.la/776967 was the best possible workaround at that time given the complexity and file size, but certainly not ideal. Now we have the promising Noto Sans font as MiK already mentioned, so we should probably use it site wide instead of Open Sans.

-Kohei

[Andrew Cunningham]

Hi Kohei,

My gut reaction is that Not Sans isn't ideal for African languages. These
are a number of open bugs on Not Sans relevant to African languages that
deal with glyph variation.

An analogy: you wouldn't want to use a traditional Chinese font to display
Japanese. The glyph variation you can see for the same codepoint across
CJKV, also occurs across the Latin script,

en gl

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