Thunderbird Conversations & font issues

[Jonathan Protzenko]

Hi all,

I've pushed a new build of Thunderbird Conversations
<http://jonathan.xulforum.org/files/gcv-nightlies/201105112206-master.xpi>
that contains a fix for the font issue (discussed on
<https://github.com/protz/GMail-Conversation-View/issues/175#comment_1143473>,
<https://groups.google.com/d/topic/mozilla-labs/Jx8CxMvAoVk/discussion>,
tb-planning). Here's the set of constraints that I have to deal with:
- the default size for proportional is 16px (17px on Mac) and the
default size for monospaced is 12px (13px on Mac),
- the conversation UI is designed with a font size of 12px in mind,
- if the user has selected bigger fonts, we want the conversation UI to
be proportionally bigger,
- we don't want to tweak the default font size, as this would break
other stuff in thunderbird (welcome to shredder start page, content tabs
such as google calendar, etc. would all be smaller and most likely
illegible).

The solution I picked is:
- make the conversation chrome font size 75% of the default font (we
previously had 12px hardcoded everywhere, so this is an improvement),
- make the proportional font size for message bodies 75% of the
proportional font size,
- leave the font size for monospaced message bodies untouched.

This means for people who left their defaults untouched (which I assume
is the majority of the audience) 12px everywhere, which happens to match
what Andy Chung had in mind when he made the initial mockup. This gives
the best, most consistent look for the Thunderbird Conversations UI.

- For people who bumped on purpose their font size (say, 20px for
proportional and 15px for monospace), the conversation ui and
proportional message bodies will be *consistent and larger*. In
practice, this gives 15px both for the conversation chrome and the
message bodies. This is consistent, and the conversation chrome now
scales up too (it previously didn't, because we had 12px hardcoded).
- For people who shrinked their font sizes, they'll probably have to
undo this, since I believe anything below 12px is incredibly hard to read.

Font topics are controversial, and I do hope this is an acceptable
compromise. However, if anyone has an ultimate solution that I failed to
see, please let me know !

jonathan

PS : the Thunderbird default font size is accessible from the
preferences, in the "display" section.
PPS : I also made the tooltips, the menus, and the dropdowns
proportionally bigger, so that the same amount of text still fits.

[klint]

Hi Jonathan

What I'm not getting, is why the system messages/buttons labels in the TB Conversation pane should have a size proportional to the font size used for the body itself. In my opinion everything but the body should be of a size set at OS level (like the size of the menu items or header pane, on Windows XP), while the body should use the size set at Thunderbird's display option level.

Also, it would be very helpful IMHO to have a setting in the TB Conversations options to be able to choose between smaller font for the body (75% of the default one in TB) or normal font (100% of the default font in TB).

Currently, I could set the default font 33% larger than usual (like 22px instead of 16px) to obtain a perfect body ;) but then:
- the system messages/buttons labels in TB Conversations seem to be larger than similar elements elsewhere in TB, which is odd
- and every message composed in the compose window have HUGE characters.

Maybe this is too simple or has already been discussed somewhere else; anyway, these were my 50cts :)

Thanks

 

[Jonathan Protzenko]

Hi Olivier,

On 06/21/2011 03:28 PM, klint wrote:
> Hi Jonathan
>
> What I'm not getting, is why the system messages/buttons labels in the
> TB Conversation pane should have a size proportional to the font size
> used for the body itself. In my opinion everything but the body should
> be of a size set at OS level (like the size of the menu items or
> header pane, on Windows XP), while the body should use the size set at
> Thunderbird's display option level.

If I take the example of my Linux box, here's what your solution would
yield:
- conversation chrome (= conversation title, menus, etc.) at 12px,
- by default, since the message body size is 16px, the message bodies
would be at 16px as well, which imho would be ugly.

This setting allows us to:
* have consistent font sizes between the conversation chrome and the
mail bodies and,
* end up in 12px everywhere assuming the user didn't change their font
settings, which is exactly the design that Andy had in mind when he did
the original mockups.

>
> Also, it would be very helpful IMHO to have a setting in the TB
> Conversations options to be able to choose between smaller font for
> the body (75% of the default one in TB) or normal font (100% of the
> default font in TB).

Seeing that many users seem to complain about it, I might add an option
that reads "scale down fonts in conversations" that would allow you to
disable the 75% factor. While I tend to be against options profusion, as
it makes my life impossible, I might be able to add this in a future
release as I understand the scaling down doesn't fit everyone.

>
> Currently, I could set the default font 33% larger than usual (like
> 22px instead of 16px) to obtain a perfect body ;) but then:
> - the system messages/buttons labels in TB Conversations seem to be
> larger than similar elements elsewhere in TB, which is odd

Disabling the 75% scaling everywhere would still yield bigger buttons in
the conversation view.

> - and every message composed in the compose window have HUGE characters.

But it would indeed solve this issue.

I'm not sure this is the best solution overall. The rationale is : we
are very limited in space for the conversation view, so we need to scale
things down. And I don't think anyone wants a 12px chrome with 16px mail
bodies, as this is not consistent. I'm still not convinced that your
solution would actually help...

jonathan

[klint]

Hi Jonathan
Thanks for your answer :)

Actually, many Windows XP users (like me) may be used to having all the XP menus and buttons set to 8px or 10px by default, and the TB mail bodies set to 16px by default (the mail bodies only, as all other TB chrome elements, including the message list, still use the Windows XP sizes, 8 or 10).
That is why it's really not a problem to me (on the contrary ;) ) to have the Conversations chrome in a small size (10px for instance  as per the XP-level setting), whereas the message bodies in expanded mode are in the default mail body size (16px for instance, as per the TB display option setting).
This way, the less important information (chrome) is minimized and emphasis is put on the important one: the mail body.

I don't know how all this works on other OSs though :)

Having said that, I just have checked how it would render without the 75% scaling: even if the expanded bodies are now ok, the conversations in shrunk mode look do not look well actually (too big, too few info displayed on a conversation page). So maybe it is not worth spending your time and energy on removing the scaling everywhere optionally :)

So, unless you agree with me on this one day, I think I will have to get used to it and buy glasses ;)

Thanks
Olivier

PS: I know you don't like to add options: but is there a way to deactivate the Conversation view without deactivating the add-on itself? I haven't found it! And in some circumstances, navigating in the legacy view is still more efficient imho ;)

[Jonathan Protzenko]

You need to hit "more" in the conversation, and pick "view using the
classic reader". Alternatively, click on a message in the message list,
and select "open in new tab".

jonathan

[klint]

Thanks, and that works for a single message
But actually, I was more thinking about navigating in the message pane in the old manner where mails display more quickly than in conversation view, on old computers like mine (where you can see the view being build), even if the global performance has increased a lot :)
So, more like a way to switch the conversation view mode on and off, depending on ones needs (and age of computer)...
Olivier

[Jason McKesson]

I would like to use Thunderbird Conversations, but I can't. The font issues mean that I would have one of the following options:

1: Read messages using an exceedingly small font (for my display).

2: Read messages using a reasonably sized font (for my display), but write replies and see individual messages (outside of Conversation's workspace) with a gigantic font.

3: Compromise: read messages with a smaller font, but write them with a bigger font.

None of these are acceptable alternatives. I love the idea of the extension, but this simple implementation point makes it unworkable for me.

The problem ultimately stems from wanting replicate exactly how G-Mail works in Thunderbird down to the pixel. It would be better if you replicated the *feel* of G-Mail's thread system, while using exactly the font sizes that Thunderbird itself uses. It makes no sense to ignore the user's choices of font sizes, and it makes Conversations really feel like a foreign part of Thunderbird rather than a well-integrated add-on that would one day hopefully become integrated in a later version.

One of the biggest lessons in UI design is the principle of least surprise. It is very surprising when font options aren't actually being followed. As is the use of the "Minimum font size" option to mean "this is how big message text should be"; it took me a while to figure out why increasing the size of the proportional font didn't seem to have an effect.

Maybe the installer should ask if you want your fonts reduced down to 12px, and if they say no, then make the fonts what they want them to be. This should be one of the switches the user can see at install time and choose to avoid if they so desire.

[Jonathan Protzenko]

Hi,

Thanks for chiming in and sharing your thoughts. After careful
consideration, I've decided to add an option to disable the scaling for
the message bodies only, and this is tracked as
<https://github.com/protz/GMail-Conversation-View/issues/289>. Making
it appear in the setup assistant is a good idea, I'll make sure users
can disable the scaling there.

> The problem ultimately stems from wanting replicate exactly how G-Mail
> works in Thunderbird down to the pixel. It would be better if you
> replicated the *feel* of G-Mail's thread system, while using exactly the
> font sizes that Thunderbird itself uses. It makes no sense to ignore the
> user's choices of font sizes, and it makes Conversations really feel
> like a foreign part of Thunderbird rather than a well-integrated add-on
> that would one day hopefully become integrated in a later version.

I'd like to remind you that I'm the only person working on this, on my
spare time, and I'm no graphic designer. Not one little bit. I'm
swamped with other issues, and I'd rather move the code forward than
fight design issues that I know I won't be able to solve in an elegant
manner. The designer helped me out last summer with a graphical mockup,
period. I've asked repeatedly for help
<http://blog.xulforum.org/index.php?post/2011/05/19/Wanna-work-on-Thunderbird-Conversations-We-need-help!>,
no one came up.

So yes, this does not integrate at all in Thunderbird. I agree. The
design is mac-centric, and 12px was hardcoded everywhere in the
original design! I had to re-work the entire CSS stylesheet to make
sure it uses a fraction of the default font size, so that if your font
size is 20px, then the conversation font size is 15px. Many wrong
assumptions are made (i.e. the user has a light theme). I talk about
them all in the blog post I mentioned above.

> One of the biggest lessons in UI design is the principle of least
> surprise. It is very surprising when font options aren't actually being
> followed. As is the use of the "Minimum font size" option to mean "this
> is how big message text should be"; it took me a while to figure out why
> increasing the size of the proportional font didn't seem to have an effect.

So this is a problem : increasing the size of the "Default font" in
Preferences > Display > Formatting should increase proportionally the
size of the conversation view. I've made sure users still have the
option of bumping the font size. Does this not work with you? (Please
continue by private email if you do have a specific bug.)

>
> Maybe the installer should ask if you want your fonts reduced down to
> 12px, and if they say no, then make the fonts what they want them to be.
> This should be one of the switches the user can see at install time and
> choose to avoid if they so desire.

Yes, I do plan on implementing this.

Thanks for bringing this up.

jonathan

[Jonathan Protzenko]

Hi,

A version of Thunderbird Conversations with a new option is available
here
<http://jonathan.xulforum.org/files/gcv-nightlies/201107011152-master.xpi>.
The option allows you to disable all modifications I make to the
message bodies in the conversation view.

Please try this out. The option is in the addon's options, under the
"advanced" tab. I take no responsibility for the resulting ugliness of
the conversation view :-).

jonathan

[Jonathan Protzenko]

Use
http://jonathan.xulforum.org/files/gcv-nightlies/201107011158-2.0b1+.xpi
if you're running Thunderbird 5.0. There's no UI in there to flip the
pref, so go to Preferences > Advanced > General > Config editor and
flip conversations.tweak_bodies to false.

jonathan

[klint]

Thanks a lot Jonathan, it looks really nicer, in my opinion only of
course ;)

On Jul 1, 9:00 pm, Jonathan Protzenko <jonathan.protze...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Usehttp://jonathan.xulforum.org/files/gcv-nightlies/201107011158-2.0b1+.xpi

> >> <http://blog.xulforum.org/index.php?post/2011/05/19/Wanna-work-on-Thun...>,

[Doc]

Not just in your opinion! :) it looks a helluva lot better with the option turned off. I was wondering why the message body was so tiny compared to the chrome elements.

[fonduekid]

Hi, I have been trying to disable the option for the message body because its too small, and I did disable it in 'config editor' as you mentioned.. But I still see the message body fonts very small.

Am I missing something here? I really love this conversation feature but the small and tiny message body is putting me off.. :( Can you please let me know how I can make the message body bigger? Thanks a lot.

[Jonathan Protzenko]

You should be running Conversations v2.0.3. Then, restart thunderbird
after you flipped the pref. Does it not help?

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[fonduekid]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for your message and information. I did use 2.0.3 and I did restart. But it didn't help. Then I had to play around with the font settings within thunderbird (options > display...) and then I managed to increase the font size. For example, with a thunderbird general font size of 16 or 18, the message body fonts are very small. I had to increase it to 22 or 24 to see the message bigger.. but its all fine now and this addon is actually great and sweet :)

By the way, I just noticed that for some reason, when I write a new message or get a new message, it gets put into a conversation view with another new message which is completely unrelated but in the same folder!! For example, I received two new messages from different sender' and I moved both of these messages to my "Personal" folder.. but when I either of those messages, I see both of them in a conversation view... This shouldn't happen, isn't it?

Thanks again for your message. Cheers.

[Jonathan Protzenko]

My guess is that someone was lazy and hit "reply" and then changed the
subject. This keeps the message in the previous thread. People should
use "edit as new".

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[Alex Murray]

Jonathan - I have to say I just stumbled upon this discussion and after using the new nightly build and disabling font tweaking I agree with the others that this is actually an improvement over the existing default. Please consider setting this to false as the default NOT true as it currently is.

Basically I think its best to have this as false as it means text is rendered as close to the normal rendering by thunderbird for the email as possible - so things like plain text messages actually get rendered with fixed-width font etc as they are meant too.

Thanks though for all your work on the extension - I know doing this stuff in your spare time can't be easy so I just want to say I personally really appreciate it - the existence of this extension made me switch to thunderbird as my default MUA.

Cheers

[Zh.y. Dai]

.It seems that this plugin has some problem with the traditional-
Chinese version of TB,
failing to open any letter in the default window if not chosen to open
a new one,
thus to say avoiding use the interface changed by it.
And when I changed to the English version, the problem is fixed, it is
as well when I turned it off.

I guess there might be something wrong in the traditional-Chinese
version,
but I guess to report it here is not a bad choice as well.

And thanks for your great work.
Best Regards.

[Rich Renomeron]

On 06/30/2011 10:57 PM, Jason McKesson wrote:

I would like to use Thunderbird Conversations, but I can't. The font issues mean that I would have one of the following options:

1: Read messages using an exceedingly small font (for my display).

2: Read messages using a reasonably sized font (for my display), but write replies and see individual messages (outside of Conversation's workspace) with a gigantic font.

Jason, I had that exact same issue.  I got around it by setting my fonts to The Default Size and using the following userContent.css file:

body {
	font-size: 75%;
}

This scales down the fonts in the composer exactly as Conversations does.  And it still works if the recent option to turn off the message body scaling doesn't work for you, as it doesn't for me (possibly to be discussed in a different post).

Rich

--

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  Why do they call it a TV set when you only get one?

[Jonathan Protzenko]

Hi all,

You should be offered Thunderbird Conversations 2.0.4 soon, which includes a new option for font issues. The whole issue is explained there, with screenshots: https://github.com/protz/GMail-Conversation-View/wiki/Fonts

I hope this ends the story :-).

jonathan

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[Rich Renomeron]

The new version looks great!  Thanks for adding the tweak_chrome option, even though I wasn't brave enough to ask for it. :)

Thanks,
Rich

On 07/06/2011 07:37 AM, Jonathan Protzenko wrote:

Hi all,

You should be offered Thunderbird Conversations 2.0.4 soon, which includes a new option for font issues. The whole issue is explained there, with screenshots: https://github.com/protz/GMail-Conversation-View/wiki/Fonts

I hope this ends the story :-).

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