Metrolink...
Ben Bethel
a question about something I saw along the way... After I passed the Metrolink
yard, I saw something that looked like two tunnels coming out of a hill on the
right side, along with overhead caternary (?) wires similar to ones used in
light rail transit. It was the only new construction in the area, so if you ride
that line, you would notice it.
Is this part of the new LA - Pasadena blue line extension? If it is, they are moving
very quickly.
Also, does the MTA in LA ever plan on using the old subway tunnels from Hollywood to
Santa Monica, or are they being used for other things such as cabling and drainage.
I was just in the area, and someone was joking about how the tunnels are a 'rat-transit
system' since when it rains a mass of rats come out of the tunnels in Hollywood near
Franklin and Highland, just North of hollywood blvd, trying to escape the water.
Thanks
Elson R. Trinidad
>I recently flew into Burbank and took Metrolink to LA Union Station, and I have
>a question about something I saw along the way... After I passed the Metrolink
>yard, I saw something that looked like two tunnels coming out of a hill on the
>right side, along with overhead caternary (?) wires similar to ones used in
>light rail transit. It was the only new construction in the area, so if you ride
>that line, you would notice it.
>Is this part of the new LA - Pasadena blue line extension? If it is, they are moving
>very quickly.
This is confusing. I've passed through there many times, and have never seen
two tunnels coming out of a hill, save for the Pasadena Freeway tunnels.
The wires probably are a power switching station (DWP, not rail-related) below
Elysian Park.
There is work on the Pasadena Blue Line in that area, but only preliminary
bridge work across the L.A. River is being done at this time.
>does the MTA in LA ever plan on using the old subway tunnels from Hollywood to
>Santa Monica, or are they being used for other things such as cabling and
drainage.
>I was just in the area, and someone was joking about how the tunnels are a
'rat-transit
>system' since when it rains a mass of rats come out of the tunnels in
Hollywood near
>Franklin and Highland, just North of hollywood blvd, trying to escape the
water.
Huh? There never was any subway tunnel in that area, and even the Red Line
construction on Hollywood has not yet progressed that far. You're probably
talking about the pedestrian tunnels below the streets.
The old subway tunnel was no more than a 1.4-mile hole in the hill that
was built mainly to move rail traffic away from the crowded streets of
Downtown. It was nicknamed the "Hollywood Subway" or the "Glendale Subway"
but the tunnel never reached that far, they only reflected the lines'
final destinations.
BTW, the MTA has no formal plans to use that tunnel.
Even in the old days, plans for a subway system were only limited to Venice
Blvd.
>Thanks
>
>B_Be...@ix.netcom.com
-- 30 --
etri...@scf.usc.edu
Elson Trinidad * University of Southern California, Los Angeles CA
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
_____________________________________________________________________________
.__<______________________ ______________________>__. Los Angeles
|]||[]_[]_[]|||[]_[]_[]||[| |]||[]_[]_[]|||[]_[]_[]||[| Metro Rail
\==o-o======o-o======o-o==/_\==o-o======o-o======o-o==/______(M)_____________
Metro Blue Line * Metro Red Line * Metrolink * Metro Green Line (1995)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Ron Newman
Elson R. Trinidad <ertr...@phakt.usc.edu> wrote:
>The old subway tunnel was no more than a 1.4-mile hole in the hill that
>was built mainly to move rail traffic away from the crowded streets of
>Downtown.
Of course, that's why Boston built its first subway too, in 1897--to
get the trolleys off Tremont Street, where they were causing a
traffic jam. If you go to Park Street Station and walk around
the southbound Green Line platforms, you'll see pictures of Tremont
Street in the 1890s, jammed wall-to-wall with streetcars. The
initial Boston subway was probably even shorter than LA's.
Were there any stations inside the old LA subway tunnel?
--
Ron Newman MIT Media Laboratory
rne...@media.mit.edu
Garrett Wollman
Ron Newman <rne...@media.mit.edu> wrote:
>If you go to Park Street Station and walk around
>the southbound Green Line platforms, you'll see pictures of Tremont
>Street in the 1890s, jammed wall-to-wall with streetcars.
This reminded me of something that has been bugging me for quite some
time. From downtown (Park Street and Gevernment Center), the Green
Line goes in two directions: northwest and southwest. The southwest
side goes a lot more west than the northwest direction does, so it is
generally agreed to be ``west''. (This is not counting the Arborway
branch, which starts out going southwest, but ends up southeast.)
Now, the northwest side used to be called ``north'', which makes
perfect sense to anyone who bothers to look at the route map. But in
recent years, somebody who apparently had nothing better to do with
his life decided that the northwest branch should be labelled
``east''. This is ridiculous: the Green Line simply doesn't /go/
east from Government Center (where it is especially ridiculous since
they just pasted translucent stickers over the old ``north'' signs).
Who is responsible for this mess?
While I'm on the subject of the Green Line (which is of some interest
to me since I commute from Cleveland Circle), can anybody out there
identify the purpose of the following bits:
1) Straight section of track at the Park Street turnaround loop
2) West-to-north turnaround loop at Government Center
3) Center track holes between Haymarket and North Station
4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
portal
5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
Station
6) Crossover at south end of Arlington station
7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
outbound side
8) Opposite direction connection from Reservoir yard to Cleveland
Circle inbound side (i.e., the fork heading left out of the yard as
seen from the Dunkin' Donuts parking lot)
???
While I'm at it, does anybody know why they don't run three-car
trains, even though they have the capacity to do so at all the subway
and elevated stations? (Indeed, Government Center, Park Street, and
Kenmore all have space for four-car trains.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | Shashish is simple, it's discreet, it's brief. ...
wol...@lcs.mit.edu | Shashish is the bonding of hearts in spite of distance.
Opinions not those of| It is a bond more powerful than absence. We like people
MIT, LCS, ANA, or NSA| who like Shashish. - Claude McKenzie + Florent Vollant
Gene
:) In article <1994Jul30.1...@news.media.mit.edu>,
:) Ron Newman <rne...@media.mit.edu> wrote:
:) >If you go to Park Street Station and walk around
:) >the southbound Green Line platforms, you'll see pictures of Tremont
:) >Street in the 1890s, jammed wall-to-wall with streetcars.
[part of post regarding green line directions deleted]
:) Who is responsible for this mess?
:) While I'm on the subject of the Green Line (which is of some interest
:) to me since I commute from Cleveland Circle), can anybody out there
:) identify the purpose of the following bits:
:) 1) Straight section of track at the Park Street turnaround loop
Ocassionaly I have seen a trollley parked there, what other purpose it
serves, I do not know.
:) 2) West-to-north turnaround loop at Government Center
This is used to turn around trolleys to head back in the North direction.
(towards lechmere and north station). If you watch in Government Center
during rush hour, you will ocassionally see a trolley use this track to
turn around.
:) 3) Center track holes between Haymarket and North Station
Beats me, never seen them used. Anyone else can answer this?
:) 4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
:) portal
Perhaps you are seeing the orange line tracks.
:) 5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
:) Station
E trains head out to lechmere this way.
:) 6) Crossover at south end of Arlington station
I don't know.
:) 7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
:) outbound side
??
:) 8) Opposite direction connection from Reservoir yard to Cleveland
:) Circle inbound side (i.e., the fork heading left out of the yard as
:) seen from the Dunkin' Donuts parking lot)
???
:) While I'm at it, does anybody know why they don't run three-car
:) trains, even though they have the capacity to do so at all the subway
:) and elevated stations? (Indeed, Government Center, Park Street, and
:) Kenmore all have space for four-car trains.)
Last I remember (if I'm remembering correctly), they don't have adequete
power to run anything larger than a two car train. I believe it is
planned to have three car trains running soon pending electrical upgrades.
Hope this helps,
Gene
--
================================================================================
est...@student.umass.edu | I fed it, I walked it,
p5928...@umbsky.cc.umb.edu | Why won't the mouse to do anything?
================================================================================
Garrett Wollman
Gene <est...@twain.ucs.umass.edu> wrote:
>:) 4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
>:) portal
>
>Perhaps you are seeing the orange line tracks.
Nope. (Unless a section of the Orange Line has weeds growing up
through it...)
>
>:) 5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
>:) Station
>
>E trains head out to lechmere this way.
Wrong platform. I'm talking about the platform right at the curve,
which is about two feet higher than the platform that's actually being
used right now.
Ron Newman
>:) to me since I commute from Cleveland Circle), can anybody out there
>:) identify the purpose of the following bits:
>
>:) 1) Straight section of track at the Park Street turnaround loop
Probably used to temporarily hold trains that are short-turned
at Park Street, while readying them for an outbound trip.
:) 4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
:) portal
The Orange Line used to rise out of a portal adjacent to the
Green Line's portal. The Orange Line elevated tracks turned right at
Causeway Street, while the Green Line el turned (still turns) left
onto Causeway. See next question.
>:) 5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
>:) Station
Again, you're seeing the remnants of the old elevated Orange Line
at North Station. All the parts of the elevated North Station that
are now fenced off to the public used to be parts of the old
Orange Line station. The Orange Line was relocated underground
in 1974 or 1975.
>:) 6) Crossover at south end of Arlington station
Probably the same as most crossovers anywhere--it's there to allow
single track operation in an emergency or during construction.
>:) 7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
>:) outbound side
Used for non-revenue equipment moves from the Cleveland
Circle/Reservoir yard to the Boston College terminus of the B branch.
(There isn't much room to store trains at that terminus.)
I've long thought that the T ought to run some service to Boston
College via Beacon Street, using this connection, but to my knowledge
they've never done so. The B line to Boston College is long and
slow, with many, frequent stops.
>
>:) 8) Opposite direction connection from Reservoir yard to Cleveland
>:) Circle inbound side (i.e., the fork heading left out of the yard as
>:) seen from the Dunkin' Donuts parking lot)
Again, probably used for non-revenue equipment moves between the C and
D branches. Also, some trains on the D branch are short-turned at
Reservoir.
Robert Coe
>While I'm on the subject of the Green Line (which is of some interest
>to me since I commute from Cleveland Circle), can anybody out there
>identify the purpose of the following bits:
>
>1) Straight section of track at the Park Street turnaround loop
The configuration has changed a couple of times. The old loop wasn't big
enough for LRVs, so I think that for a while they just switched ends.
>2) West-to-north turnaround loop at Government Center
Once used by Eastern Mass. Street Ry cars coming in from beyond North
Station. Still used occasionally for load levelling or in case of
breakdowns.
>3) Center track holes between Haymarket and North Station
That section used to be four tracks wide, with the inner tracks forming
the loop at Govt Center that you asked about above.
>4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
>portal
Tracks that led to the old Orange Line incline. Abandoned when the Charles-
town el was torn down and the North Station stop was put underground.
>5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
>Station
The stub end of the Atlantic Avenue el, which was torn down around 1940.
It was stil more or less accessible until the Charlestown el was also torn
down in the 1970s.
>6) Crossover at south end of Arlington station
Probably led to one of several portals that preceded the construction of
the main section of the Boylston St subway.
>7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
>outbound side
Dunno for sure, but I suppose they could use it to route Boston College
cars via Cleveland Circle in case of a breakdown or construction on
Commonwealth Ave.
>8) Opposite direction connection from Reservoir yard to Cleveland
>Circle inbound side (i.e., the fork heading left out of the yard as
>seen from the Dunkin' Donuts parking lot)
Not sure which direction you mean, but there are enough connections to
allow cars to get from the yard onto either Beacon St or Chestnut Hill
Ave. When the Riverside line was reconstructed in (I believe) the 70s,
there were some additional very strange connections, including a track
over the bridge to the inbound Riverside line and a loop from the inbound
to the outbound track on the Riverside line. (That one allowed cars from
Riverside to go into town via Beacon St while the Riverside Line was torn
up between Reservoir and Fenway Park.) But few, if any, vestiges of those
tracks still exist, partly because the Reservoir yard itself has been
extensively reconstructed in the meantime.
>While I'm at it, does anybody know why they don't run three-car
>trains, even though they have the capacity to do so at all the subway
>and elevated stations?
I thought they didn't, although maybe they do now. Two LRVs are about the
same length as three PCC cars, and three was the longest train of PCC cars
I ever saw them run. (I think they also ran 3-car trains of center-entrance
cars, but those were before my time.)
>(Indeed, Government Center, Park Street, and Kenmore all have space for
>four-car trains.)
Yeah, but train length is determined by the shortest platform on the
route.
--
___ _ - Bob
/__) _ / / ) _ _
(_/__) (_)_(_) (___(_)_(/_____________________________________ b...@1776.COM
Robert K. Coe * 14 Churchill St, Sudbury, Massachusetts 01776 * 508-443-3265
Sandy F. Smith Jr.
I will not comment there. Instead, I have a question:
When did the MBTA start using compass-point nomenclature to identify train
direction at the central stations (and I hope only at those)?
Certainly, it makes little sense for the Red or Green lines. And given
the radial/circumferential nature of the Boston street and transit
network, with Downtown Boston clearly the hub and Route 128 the wheel (and
495 the outer wheel), and everything else, including the rapid transit
lines, spokes, the "inbound" and "outbound" designations (and the use of
termini to indicate direction at the central stations) certainly made
sense, at least to me. What is gained by using compass points?
-Sandy F. Smith, Jr.-----...@pobox.upenn.edu,sa...@mac.dev.upenn.edu-
"Exile on Market Street" in the Penn Office of News and Public Affairs
3624 Market Street, Suite 1B South, Philadelphia, PA 19104-2615 / 898-8721
(Opinions mine, NOT Penn's. If they want 'em, they gotta pay for 'em.)
"The most dangerous myth facing African Americans today is that middle-
class life is counterfeit and that only poverty and suffering, and the
rage that attends them, are real."
---------------------Brent Staples, _The New York Times_, 27 August 1993--
christopher pontani
> Instead, I have a question:
>
> When did the MBTA start using compass-point nomenclature to identify train
> direction at the central stations (and I hope only at those)?...What is
> gained by using compass points?
>
Absolutely nothing. It's only one more thing to confuse you with, just
like everything else about the Green Line.
Speaking of the Green Line, I just saw in a recent issue of Railway Age
that in order for the MBTA to comply with federal handicap
accessability, the T is ordering x number of new low-floor Green Line
streetcars. They will then attach them to one of the older cars (Kiko
or Boeing), so that every train will be handicap accessable. Will the
doors fall off this batch, too?
- Chris P.
Garrett Wollman
>>7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
>>outbound side
>
>Dunno for sure, but I suppose they could use it to route Boston College
>cars via Cleveland Circle in case of a breakdown or construction on
>Commonwealth Ave.
Well, that's what I thought too, until I got close enough to look at
the tracks, and it turns out that the switches where this branch would
have connected with the main Chestnut Hill Ave. are simply missing, so
the branch goes out into the middle of the road and stops. Ah,
well...
Rowell Santiago
The low-floor cars (Type 8), will replace the Boeing cars. They will be
run in trains with the Kinki built Type 7s. The MBTA has just received
bids for the order. I have heard that there are four
bidders:Kinki-Sharyo, Bombardier, Siemens, and Breda. I don't know when
they MBTA will pick a winner, probably by the end of the year.
R.S.
Rowell Santiago
: wol...@ginger.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) writes:
: >While I'm on the subject of the Green Line (which is of some interest
: >to me since I commute from Cleveland Circle), can anybody out there
: >identify the purpose of the following bits:
: >
: >1) Straight section of track at the Park Street turnaround loop
: The configuration has changed a couple of times. The old loop wasn't big
: enough for LRVs, so I think that for a while they just switched ends.
No, this is the emergency repair pit, which has been used as such since
the subway opened in 1897.
: >2) West-to-north turnaround loop at Government Center
: Once used by Eastern Mass. Street Ry cars coming in from beyond North
: Station. Still used occasionally for load levelling or in case of
: breakdowns.
It is used every Monday-Saturday. One Run as Directed (RAD) car is
operated from Lechmere to Government Center. As you can probably tell by
the name, the RAD dosn't run on a schedule, but is used at the
discretion of the inspector at Government or Lechmere. Some inspectors
will get quite a few trips out of the RAD, others will just let it sit
there all day. The liklyhood of seeing/riding the loop in question
depends on who is on duty.
: >3) Center track holes between Haymarket and North Station
: That section used to be four tracks wide, with the inner tracks forming
: the loop at Govt Center that you asked about above.
The current Haymarket station was built in 1971 on the right of way of
two of these tracks. The abandoned original Haymarket can be seen just
inside the portal.
: >4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
: >portal
: Tracks that led to the old Orange Line incline. Abandoned when the Charles-
: town el was torn down and the North Station stop was put underground.
When the Green Line track was being rebuilt at nights in 1985-87, some
of the contractors hi-rail equipment was stored on temporary tracks
built on the old Orange Line incline. Those temporary tracks are what
you see today, the Orange Line track was ripped up shortly after the
Charlestown El closed in April 1975.
: >5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
: >Station
: The stub end of the Atlantic Avenue el, which was torn down around 1940.
: It was stil more or less accessible until the Charlestown el was also torn
: down in the 1970s.
It is interesting that a remenant of an EL closed in 1938 is still
visible, while little remains of the Els closed in 1975 and 1987!
: >6) Crossover at south end of Arlington station
: Probably led to one of several portals that preceded the construction of
: the main section of the Boylston St subway.
Yes, this is the portal closed in 1941, when the Huntington Ave. subway
opened.
: >7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
: >outbound side
: Dunno for sure, but I suppose they could use it to route Boston College
: cars via Cleveland Circle in case of a breakdown or construction on
: Commonwealth Ave.
It is used every day to shift cars from Reservoir yard/carhouse to the
Boston College Line
: >8) Opposite direction connection from Reservoir yard to Cleveland
: >Circle inbound side (i.e., the fork heading left out of the yard as
: >seen from the Dunkin' Donuts parking lot)
: Not sure which direction you mean, but there are enough connections to
: allow cars to get from the yard onto either Beacon St or Chestnut Hill
: Ave. When the Riverside line was reconstructed in (I believe) the 70s,
: there were some additional very strange connections, including a track
: over the bridge to the inbound Riverside line and a loop from the inbound
: to the outbound track on the Riverside line. (That one allowed cars from
: Riverside to go into town via Beacon St while the Riverside Line was torn
: up between Reservoir and Fenway Park.) But few, if any, vestiges of those
: tracks still exist, partly because the Reservoir yard itself has been
: extensively reconstructed in the meantime.
The track in question though, is a permanent connection to shift
equipment from Commonwealth, Beacon St. and the Riverside Line.
: >While I'm at it, does anybody know why they don't run three-car
: >trains, even though they have the capacity to do so at all the subway
: >and elevated stations?
: I thought they didn't, although maybe they do now. Two LRVs are about the
: same length as three PCC cars, and three was the longest train of PCC cars
: I ever saw them run. (I think they also ran 3-car trains of center-entrance
: cars, but those were before my time.)
: >(Indeed, Government Center, Park Street, and Kenmore all have space for
: >four-car trains.)
: Yeah, but train length is determined by the shortest platform on the
: route.
They have been running 2 or 3 three car trains of Type 7s on the
Riverside Line since April of this year. They are hard to find, since
they still run many more two car trains on Riverside. The biggest
problem with running more three car trains is simple:money. You need an
addtional operator on each additional car added to Boston's Green
Line. (I know that this is going to start a thread on "In XXX and YYY
city, one guy operates a four car light rail train, why does Boston need
one guy on each car, etc., etc.):>
R.S.
m00...@mbvms.mitre.org
.. [other stuff deleted] ..
> While I'm on the subject of the Green Line (which is of some interest
> to me since I commute from Cleveland Circle), can anybody out there
> identify the purpose of the following bits:
>
> 1) Straight section of track at the Park Street turnaround loop
>
Do you mean the piece of track that allows cars from Government Center or
beyond to get onto the inner or loop track outbound? If so, that track is
used by the "B BOSTON COLLEGE" cars that terminate (normally) at Government
Center. Some years ago, the loading patterns at Park Street were changed to
route these cars to the inner track, in an attempt to even out track occupancy.
With four routes, we now have two loading on each side; "C CLEVELAND CIRCLE"
and "D RIVERSIDE" on the outer track, "B BOSTON COLLEGE" and "E HEATH STREET"
on the inner track.
> 2) West-to-north turnaround loop at Government Center
>
Occasionally used by extra shuttle cars run between North Station or Lechmere
and Government Center when there are major events at the Boston Garden. This
loop is the vestigial remains of the old Brattle Loop which was used by street
cars from Charlestown (and other more distant points in the really long ago
past).
> 3) Center track holes between Haymarket and North Station
>
?? I don't know what you're talking about.
> 4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
> portal
>
If you mean the Canal Street track, it's far from abandoned. The "C CLEVELAND
CIRCLE" cars normally terminate at North Station, on the street level. There
used to be a loop there, known as Canal Street Loop, but with the coming of
the LRVs, it was changed to a double track stub-end platform. There is a track
on the extreme right that is sometimes used to store work equipment. It is one
of many places where, for example, a piece of work equipment can be temporarily
stored, or a bad-ordered car can be shoved out of the way until it can be
attended to.
> 5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
> Station
>
The soon-to-be-removed track leading to Science Park Station, the East Cambridge
Viaduct and Lechmere Station. This is the normal route of the "D RIVERSIDE"
cars. It will be replaced by a tunnel under North Station and the Charles River
as part of the new North Station/Shawmut Center construction.
Or do you mean the remains of the old stub end terminal of the Atlantic Avenue
Elevated. This is located directly above Causeway Street, just to the east of
the outbound (going towards Lechmere) platform of the Green Line. The Atlantic
Avenue Elevated was part of the original Elevated construction (the ancestor
of today's Orange Line) in 1901. When built, the Elevated extended from
Sullivan Square Station in Charlestown to Dudley Station in Roxbury. Both of
these no longer exist as such. Sullivan Square Station was a massive terminal
structure on the north side of Broadway and the east side of Alford Street. It
contained a loop for the elevated and (at least) three separate street car
loops. As well as offices, shops, etc. From there, the Elevated ran over Main
Street in Charlestown and over Charlestown High Bridge to Keany Square, at the
intersection of Causeway Street, Commercial Street and North Washington Street.
At that point, it split into two routes. A signal tower which was mounted on
the elevated structure controlled the junction - that tower now lives at the
Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport ME. What became the main branch
turned west to go over Causeway Street to between Haverhill and Canal Streets.
There it turned south, and there was an above-ground station directly above
the present Canal Street Station. From there the tracks descended to below-
ground level. The Washington Street Tunnel between a portal just north of
Haymarket Square and one at Ash Street was planned originally, but was not
completed for several years (1905?). (Most of that tunnel still exists as the
route of the Orange Line, though it has been extended on both ends so that
neither original portal is still used though remnants of them are visible.)
Until such time as the Washington Street tunnel was completed, the Elevated
trains ran through the present Green Line subway, which was four tracks wide
north of Government Center (which then was Scollay Square) and south of Park
Street. Temporary third rail and high platforms were put in on the outer
two of the four tracks, and third rail along the only pair of tracks between
Scollay and Park. Thus (I believe) for this period of about three years, there
was no through service through the original Central (or Tremont Street) Subway.
From Boylston Street Station, the Elevated trains used the outer tracks,
now abandoned, and the abandoned tunnel which exited at the corner of Tremont
Street and Pleasant Street (now Broadway - or is it now Charles Street South).
A temporary ramp was built alongside Castle Street (which no longer exists -
Herald Street is approximately its replacement) to bring the tracks up to
Elevated level above Washington Street, where there was another junction and
signal tower at the south end of the Atlantic Avenue line. From this point,
the Elevated continued to Dudley Square, terminating in a large loop,
originally with platforms only on the northbound side (above an alley - where
the northbound platform was in later years).
The Atlantic Avenue Branch left off at Keany Square, and ran above Commercial
Street and Atlantic Avenue to Dewey Square (South Station). These streets were
straighter then - there was not the shoo-fly around Christopher Columbus Park
that now exists. From Dewey Square, the track ran above Atlantic Avenue, Beach
Street and Harrison Avenue, then over one of the short "New York" Streets - I
forget which one, perhaps Mott Street - to connect up with the other line above
Washington Street. The original plan was for alternate trains to operate
either through the Central Subway (or the Washington Street Tunnel after it was
completed) and over Atlantic Avenue. Since the Roxbury end of the line was
expected to have heavier traffic than the Charlestown end, it was planned to
also operate trains from Dudley Street north over Atlantic Avenue and returning
through the Subway to Dudley Street, and also in the reverse direction.
After not too many years, the waterfront area declined in importance, and
through service via Atlantic Avenue was discontinued, being replaced by shuttle
trains that ran only between North Station and South Station. It was these
shuttle trains that used the platform that was the reason for this whole
discussion. I do not know if it was part of the original construction or not,
but in the 1930s, definitely all Atlantic Avenue service terminated there.
Stations on the Atlantic Avenue Elevated were at Battery, State Street, Rowes
Wharf and South Station. I think there was also a station in Chinatown, but
I'm not sure. As I said, service south of South Station was discontinued in
the twenties, though the track and structure remained in place and usable
until all Atlantic Avenue service ended in 1940 and the structure was torn
down, with the scrap steel going to the war effort.
> 6) Crossover at south end of Arlington station
>
Emergency use.
> 7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
> outbound side
>
Barn access (at Cleveland Circle) for B Line cars.
> 8) Opposite direction connection from Reservoir yard to Cleveland
> Circle inbound side (i.e., the fork heading left out of the yard as
> seen from the Dunkin' Donuts parking lot)
>
??? I am not that familiar with the track layout - I'd have to look at it
to see just what you're talking about.
> ???
>
> While I'm at it, does anybody know why they don't run three-car
> trains, even though they have the capacity to do so at all the subway
> and elevated stations? (Indeed, Government Center, Park Street, and
> Kenmore all have space for four-car trains.)
>
They used to. I really don't know why they stopped doing it. Probably
because three LRVs is too long for stops outside the Subway?
Len Bachelder m00...@mbvms.mitre.org
Rowell Santiago
: >>7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
: >>outbound side
: >
: >Dunno for sure, but I suppose they could use it to route Boston College
: >cars via Cleveland Circle in case of a breakdown or construction on
: >Commonwealth Ave.
: Well, that's what I thought too, until I got close enough to look at
: the tracks, and it turns out that the switches where this branch would
: have connected with the main Chestnut Hill Ave. are simply missing, so
: the branch goes out into the middle of the road and stops. Ah,
: well...
: --
The track is used to move cars from Reservoir carhouse to Commonwealth
Ave. The switch which is used to access it is in front of the restaurant,
next to the movie theater. The switches that acces the track from Beacon
St. were never used much, and may indeed be disconnected. I know that
the track on Chestnut Hill Ave. is supposed to be renewed soon. I havn't
been there in a couple of weeks, has it started already? This track has
never been used by anything but non-revenue equipment shifts in the
modern era. There was a route to Brookline Village (what is now
the #65 bus), which did operate from BC via Comm ave., Chestnut Hill
Ave, Beacon St., and Washington St. This ended sometime in the 1920s,
and the track on Washington St.(Brookline) has probably been gone for
50-60 years. This was the only revenue route to use Chestnut Hill Ave. I
can remember a weekend a few years ago, when a grade crossing was being
replaced on Comm Ave. Buses substituted for streetcars for most of the
route, but some service was operated from BC, down Chestnut Hill Ave, up
the connecting track to the Riverside line, and then over the Riverside
line to the subway. This was one of the rare times I ever saw passengers
carried on Chestnut hill Ave. (except for fan trips of course).
R.S.
m00...@mbvms.mitre.org
> wol...@ginger.lcs.mit.edu (Garrett Wollman) writes:
>>While I'm on the subject of the Green Line (which is of some interest
>>to me since I commute from Cleveland Circle), can anybody out there
>>identify the purpose of the following bits:
>>
>>1) Straight section of track at the Park Street turnaround loop
>
> The configuration has changed a couple of times. The old loop wasn't big
> enough for LRVs, so I think that for a while they just switched ends.
>
Really! Not saying you're wrong, but I don't remember that!
>>2) West-to-north turnaround loop at Government Center
>
> Once used by Eastern Mass. Street Ry cars coming in from beyond North
> Station. Still used occasionally for load levelling or in case of
> breakdowns.
>
WRONG! The present loop is new construction on the site of the old
Brattle Street Loop that was used by Boston El cars from/to Charlestown.
Eastern Mass. cars looped in a different loop near the old Adams Square
station.
>>3) Center track holes between Haymarket and North Station
>
> That section used to be four tracks wide, with the inner tracks forming
> the loop at Govt Center that you asked about above.
>
Sort of right. The whole area was pretty thoroughly rebuilt when Scollay
Square was converted into Government Center, and the present line
is more direct than either of the two former two-track independent subway
lines (one for northbound, one for southbound) were.
>>4) Abandoned track on the far right (looking north) at Haymarket
>>portal
>
> Tracks that led to the old Orange Line incline. Abandoned when the Charles-
> town el was torn down and the North Station stop was put underground.
>
So that's what he meant! I though he might have meant the layup track
up against Causeway Street where they sometimes store work cars.
>>5) High platform and second track over Causeway Street at North
>>Station
>
> The stub end of the Atlantic Avenue el, which was torn down around 1940.
> It was stil more or less accessible until the Charlestown el was also torn
> down in the 1970s.
>
>>6) Crossover at south end of Arlington station
>
> Probably led to one of several portals that preceded the construction of
> the main section of the Boylston St subway.
>
It's at the location of the old portal, but I doubt that there was a crossover
there when the portal was in use. It's just for emergency use.
>>7) Connection to Chestnut Hill Ave (B line) from Cleveland Circle
>>outbound side
>
> Dunno for sure, but I suppose they could use it to route Boston College
> cars via Cleveland Circle in case of a breakdown or construction on
> Commonwealth Ave.
>
Never done AFAIK. It's used for barn access for B Cars.
I'm going to have to add a lot of blank lines so that my ^&*)^$# mailer won't
reject this for having more quoted lines than new text!
Len Bachelder m00...@mbvms.mitre.org
Ron Newman
<m00...@mbvms.mitre.org> wrote:
>The soon-to-be-removed track leading to Science Park Station, the East Cambridge
>Viaduct and Lechmere Station. This is the normal route of the "D RIVERSIDE"
>cars.
Not any more. The "D" trains now terminate at Government Center, while
the "E" (Heath Street) trains go over this el to Lechmere.
>It will be replaced by a tunnel under North Station and the Charles River
>as part of the new North Station/Shawmut Center construction.
I just talked to Tom Woodall at the MBTA construction department about
this. Construction is supposed to begin next spring, and will last
about 36 months. First they need to move some Central Artery ramps,
and build a temporary Green Line up-ramp just east of the current one
along Canal Street. Then they will demolish the current up-ramp
and surface stub tracks, and build a cut-and-cover tunnel through
the new Shawmut Center (and its new underground North Station)
to a new portal somewhere between the Shawmut Center and
Science Park.
While this construction is going on, no trains will terminate
at North Station; all will continue on to Lechmere.
Science Park station and the elevated to Lechmere will stay in place.
There are *no* plans to replace them with a tunnel under the
Charles River. The only elevated that this project removes is
the one along Canal, Causeway, and Lowell streets.
Robert Coe
>The track is used to move cars from Reservoir carhouse to Commonwealth
>Ave. The switch which is used to access it is in front of the restaurant,
>next to the movie theater. The switches that acces the track from Beacon
>St. were never used much, and may indeed be disconnected. I know that
>the track on Chestnut Hill Ave. is supposed to be renewed soon. I havn't
>been there in a couple of weeks, has it started already? This track has
>never been used by anything but non-revenue equipment shifts in the
I once saw a single-ended PCC car in revenue service signed for "Common-
wealth to Chestnut Hill Avenue". Obviously its ultimate destination was
the Reservoir carhouse. (Otherwise how would they turn it around?) So
unless they threw the passengers off for the last two blocks, that would
represent revenue service for the track on C.H. Avenue.
Robert Coe
>Science Park station and the elevated to Lechmere will stay in place.
>There are *no* plans to replace them with a tunnel under the
>Charles River. The only elevated that this project removes is
>the one along Canal, Causeway, and Lowell streets.
The viaduct traversed by the Lechmere cars is considered some sort of
historical landmark. And putting the line in an underwater tunnel would
result in the loss of Science Park station.
Rowell Santiago
: rsan...@lynx.dac.neu.edu (Rowell Santiago) writes:
: >The track is used to move cars from Reservoir carhouse to Commonwealth
: >Ave. The switch which is used to access it is in front of the restaurant,
: >next to the movie theater. The switches that acces the track from Beacon
: >St. were never used much, and may indeed be disconnected. I know that
: >the track on Chestnut Hill Ave. is supposed to be renewed soon. I havn't
: >been there in a couple of weeks, has it started already? This track has
: >never been used by anything but non-revenue equipment shifts in the
: >modern era. ...
: I once saw a single-ended PCC car in revenue service signed for "Common-
: wealth to Chestnut Hill Avenue". Obviously its ultimate destination was
: the Reservoir carhouse. (Otherwise how would they turn it around?) So
: unless they threw the passengers off for the last two blocks, that would
: represent revenue service for the track on C.H. Avenue.
: --
:
They threw the passengers off for the last two blocks. Notice that the
sign said Commonwealth To Chestnut Hill Ave., Not Cleveland Circle via
Commonwealth.
R.S.
William Edwards
>While I'm at it, does anybody know why they don't run three-car
>trains, even though they have the capacity to do so at all the subway
>and elevated stations?
I thought they didn't, although maybe they do now. Two LRVs are about the
same length as three PCC cars, and three was the longest train of PCC cars
I ever saw them run. (I think they also ran 3-car trains of center-entrance
cars, but those were before my time.)
I've seen several three-car trains on the Riverside (D) line recently.
I don't recall any prior to, say, a year ago.
--
-- Bill Edwards
Frontier Science (as of 7/1/94)/ECOG
303 Boylston Street; Brookline MA 02146
(617) 632-2975; w...@jimmy.harvard.edu; w...@harvjmmy.bitnet
Larry Campbell
-
-.. [other stuff deleted] ..
-
-> While I'm at it, does anybody know why they don't run three-car
-> trains, even though they have the capacity to do so at all the subway
-> and elevated stations? (Indeed, Government Center, Park Street, and
-> Kenmore all have space for four-car trains.)
->
-
-They used to. I really don't know why they stopped doing it. Probably
-because three LRVs is too long for stops outside the Subway?
-
-Len Bachelder m00...@mbvms.mitre.org
They do run 3-car trains on the Riverside line occasionally, at rush hour.
They are a welcome sight to me, because they're the only way I ever get
a seat on the way in.
--
Larry Campbell "There are only two kinds of science:
The Boston Software Works, Inc. physics, and stamp collecting."
camp...@redsox.bsw.com -- Ernest Rutherford