Phil's long and boring travelogue....
Philip Nasadowski
this is basically a trip of europe, a certain poster on both groups
suggested I post it here, too. It wasn't my idea ;)
Synopsis:
2 weeks in Europe, featuring (in order)
* London
* Paris
* Amsterdam
* Hamburg
* Itzehoe
* \m/ Wacken!!!! \m/
* Itzehoe
* Hamburg (hey, wait a second..)
* Berlin
* Munich
* Zurich
I'll skip Wacken, since the Open Air was well, non rail content :)
There's a mix otherwise.
Purpose:
The original purpose was to see a few European cities, sample their
rail systems, see some equipment and operations I've only read about,
and hit a few tourist traps. The addition of a non-railfan traveling
buddy ("I grew up riding the fucking subway, the last thing I was to do
is ride more trains") meant there was a considerable modification from
the intended purpose. Notably, Amsterdam was added and Wacken added at
the last minute. Nonetheless, the initial goals actually were more or
less met - thus I saw many systems from both a railfan and touron
perspective.
*** Warning ***
I'll be up front here - everything wasn't great. We didn't fall in love
with all of Europe. On the whole, it was good though. My posting style
is blunt. I'm a blunt guy at times. If you can't stomach it, please
make sure your computer's fitted with a functional spacebar, and use
it....
Next post: Starting at (ground) Zero....
Philip Nasadowski
Starting at (Ground) Zero
Like most sane Americans, we flew to London. For us, this meant a
flight from Newark to Heathrow. We didn't look at Amtrak for this one ;)
Getting there meant mom's Airport limo, though I traveled light - one
backpack. We flew Continental 'overnight', in a Boeing 777. Having
only one, carry on, bag helps out, given that US airlines now like to
charge you for everything, including luggage. Or arriving in one piece.
No use even trying to get the train in - the airport connection is
horrid, the timekeeping is lousy at best. And coming from Long island,
it's just as fast to drive it, and there were no fees - I was dropped
off.
Security was tight, and the standard shoes off, etc was in force. Being
a Port Authority operation, it was typical Port Authority, though the
security folks (TSA) and everyone else were mostly helpful and pleasant.
The flight was good - it got out 25 minutes late because everyone and
their brother wants to take off at 7pm. We nonetheless made up the time
en route (Amtrak, note this...). Diner, morning snacks, and plenty of
entertainment. We opted for 'extra legroom', meaning I got no window :(
Did sneak a peek through the one behind me at Manhattan as we passed
over...
*** London - Block letters required ***
About an hour before landing in London, we were handed a 'landing card'
which one apparently has to fill out. In block letters Like in 3rd
grade. I was a bad American and didn't do this.
On landing in Heathrow, my first impression was we went off the runway.
Seriously, it's that bad. The taxi to the terminal wasn't much better...
If there's anything the British suck at more than food, It's
architecture. Terminal 4 is fucking *ugly*. Really ugly. Anyway, we
made our way to customs and the Spanish Inquisition began...
Customs: "Sir, WHERE are you STAYINg in LONDON?"
Me: "At the Holiday Inn - my friend *points over to him* has the address"
C: SIR, LONDON is a BIG city! (No shit, I'm from NY, there's a big city
there too..)
M: He has the address..
C: How long are you staying?
M: Today and tomorrow morning
C: Where are you going after that?
M: Paris
C: Are you returning to the UK after that?
M: No (I might have said 'thank god' after that...)
C: So you're flying out of Paris?
M: No (I should have told her it was none of her fucking business), I'm
going to Amsterdam, Hamburg, Itzehoe, Wacken, Berlin, Munich, and
Zurich. We're flying out of Zurich.
C: *Eyes blink while she crunches that one*
C: *stamps passport* Ok, BUT NEXT TIME fill the form out PROPERLY!!!!
Welcome to London. What a fucking asshole.
We headed for the train into London. The ticket machines are ok. They
don't really explain the ticket options that well. Seriously, a 1st
class ticket for a 15 minute ride? Hint: I don't give a shit about my
carbon footprint (It's size 12, steel toed), tell me what I'm about to
drop 18 pounds on...
The shuttle between 4 and the rest of the place was....long. It's
really that far away?
A quick transfer, and we were on our way to London. Really, this comes
in 1st and 2nd class? It had all the charm of a commuter train, with an
annoying (at 6am) blaring TV screen trying to sell me shit I don't want
and blabbing on about...something...
Once we popped out of the tunnel, the ride gets fun. First thought:
Woah, nice curve speeds! And, we ran along at more or less decent speed
(87 or so?). The 50hz hum of the equipment was noticeable - likely
because we don't tune out 50hz. I suspect the locals do, and get driven
nuts by 60hz in the US.. The ride was good, better than the NEC.
I commented to my friend that this was nicer than Amtrak - we were
moving, not crawling. And, on cue, the train...ground to a stop.
"I spoke too soon"
About 20 seconds later, a voice popped on telling us we were being held
while a train crossed in front of us, which sure enough, it did, and we
were almost immediately back on our way. NJT and Amtrak, take note.
Paddington - I don't remember it, other than it looked nice. We were
seeking the Underground...
Next: Around London
Philip Nasadowski
Around London...
We hunted down our hotel via the Underground. First impressions: It's
a very useable system, but not an overly clean or user friendly one.
The general state looks like the NYC subway circa the late 80's, minus
the 'artwork'. Trains are frequent. The first one were were on were
circa 1970s, and felt like DC switched resistance cars. The compressor
and traction noises were more in line with early post war NYCTA stock
than 70's NYCTA stuff. There was no air conditioning, a popular theme
in Europe, thus the cars were a bit noisier and dirtier than you'd
expect. Nothing bad.
We popped out at Gloucester Road, which is where our Hotel (see prior
post) was. Cute area. The roads are marked with 'look right' and 'look
left' as needed, on the ground by the crosswalk, which was very useful.
We both still managed to nearly get run over a few times....
The station itself is severely overbuilt for a subway stop. This trend
seemed to be confined to the older parts of the system (to be fair,
other cities in the US and abroad are guilty of this). An above house
station house and everything... it's overkill, though it looked neat
anyway.
At the hotel, our room wasn't ready yet (hey, it's barely 7:30 am!), so
we stowed our bags. The hotel had a taxi stand, complete with a Asian
guy in a top hat handling the taxis. Cute.
We circulated the immediate area, hit a supermarket (Waitrose) and got
rolling. UK milk sucks, of the three I had, Waitrose was by far the
worst, tasting like skin milk watered down with saltwater. Tessco was
the best, though that's not saying much. Note to Cadbury: Import the
Flake to the US. Please?
We hit the Museum of Science and industry, first. Not bad, though I
though the organization was a bit random. The section on space was
basically all about the US and USSR, with some odd British rocket there
to stay relevant...
The computing section was interesting. Flight was ok. I'll admit bias
here - I'm a 3 or so hour train ride from Air & Space in DC. It's hard
to beat that.
All in all, worth the price of admission.
The rest of the day was spent hitting the tourist traps. The area
around the Eye and Big Ben is fucking gross, as is the Thames. As I say
on my Flickr stream*, I've seen tanks at sewer plants that are cleaner.
The Hudson's cleaner. I'd swim in the Hudson. I'd want to drown and
die if I fell into the Thames. The high amount of trash and wings rats
wasn't helping either. We skipped the Eye - a two hour wait - and kept
walking.
One amazing thing, for a city that's so hung up on 'security', and
cameras everywhere, we saw maybe 4 or 5 cops. In fact, we saw more in
Paris at the Eiffel Tower than all of London.
Tower Bridge: see above on the Eye, though it was cleaner.
London Taxis are neat, but all sound like old tractors, and the cabbies
are a mixed bag. They also apparently never see tips, because they were
thrilled when we tipped them.
The Transport Museum - like 10 pounds to enter? That include a tube of
KY?
Mind the gap - Yeah, because nothing lines up EVER on the Underground.
Especially fun on the Victoria Line where the step up give you that
*extra* boost to slam your head into the top of the doorway. But riding
on '67 stock? Fun fun. Just tiny.
We eventually got tired of London and headed in for the night. I netted
two huge blisters (remember my carbon footprint? Yes, my only pair of
footwear on this trip were steel toed loggers...) but otherwise we came
out pretty decent for a long day. The hotel had air conditioning and
was a nice room, albeit a tad tiny. Remember, we're used to American
sized motels, which are pretty big. Nonetheless, it worked well for the
night. The next day would start with a hop to Paris.
I wanted to like London. I thought I would. But it let me down - I was
stunned by the dirt and grime, and the folks seemed to not be as nice as
I'd had hoped. The Underground's a great system in terms of getting you
around and it's VERY frequent, but it's not the most user-friendly, and
it needs serious work, still. The taxis were nice in that the cabs beat
anything in the US, but they sound like tractors and the cabbies are a
mixed bag - not any different from the US, really. The good ones were
great.
Food? Send the Flake, keep the rest..
Next contestant: Paris.
Neil Williams
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
>C: *stamps passport* Ok, BUT NEXT TIME fill the form out PROPERLY!!!!
>
>Welcome to London. What a fucking asshole.
So, a bit like the time I was threatened with deportation because I
forgot to sign my Visa Waiver card in the US, then?
They can be the same the world over - I kind-of dislike the
implication that the UK ones are worse than anywhere else.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To reply put my first name before the at.
Graeme
Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
[snip]
[snip]
You are the arsehole (note spelling). By rights she should have refused you
entry and put you on the next plane back to the States.
--
Graeme Wall
This address not read, substitute trains for rail
Transport Miscellany at <www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail>
Photo galleries at <http://graeme-wall.fotopic.net/>
tim....
"Philip Nasadowski" <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote in message
news:nasadowsk-2F2E0...@news.optonline.net...
As an American you've presumably never encountered the US immigration
people's treatment of foreigners. They make the above look polite
tim
tim....
> *** Part 3 (ish) ***
>
> Around London...
>
> We hunted down our hotel via the Underground. First impressions: It's
> a very useable system, but not an overly clean or user friendly one.
> The general state looks like the NYC subway circa the late 80's, minus
> the 'artwork'. Trains are frequent. The first one were were on were
> circa 1970s, and felt like DC switched resistance cars. The compressor
> and traction noises were more in line with early post war NYCTA stock
> than 70's NYCTA stuff. There was no air conditioning, a popular theme
> in Europe, thus the cars were a bit noisier and dirtier than you'd
> expect. Nothing bad.
>
> We popped out at Gloucester Road, which is where our Hotel (see prior
> post) was. Cute area. The roads are marked with 'look right' and 'look
> left' as needed, on the ground by the crosswalk, which was very useful.
> We both still managed to nearly get run over a few times....
You only get that in areas where there are lots of one way streets.
In "normal" towns you are expected to know which way to look :-(
> The station itself is severely overbuilt for a subway stop. This trend
> seemed to be confined to the older parts of the system (to be fair,
> other cities in the US and abroad are guilty of this). An above house
> station house and everything... it's overkill, though it looked neat
> anyway.
I have to question the sanity of someone who thinks that *this* is a reason
to mark down somewhere
>
> At the hotel, our room wasn't ready yet (hey, it's barely 7:30 am!), so
> we stowed our bags. The hotel had a taxi stand, complete with a Asian
> guy in a top hat handling the taxis. Cute.
>
> We circulated the immediate area, hit a supermarket (Waitrose) and got
> rolling. UK milk sucks, of the three I had, Waitrose was by far the
> worst, tasting like skin milk watered down with saltwater. Tessco was
> the best, though that's not saying much. Note to Cadbury: Import the
> Flake to the US. Please?
>
> We hit the Museum of Science and industry, first. Not bad, though I
> though the organization was a bit random. The section on space was
> basically all about the US and USSR, with some odd British rocket there
> to stay relevant...
>
> The computing section was interesting. Flight was ok. I'll admit bias
> here - I'm a 3 or so hour train ride from Air & Space in DC. It's hard
> to beat that.
>
> All in all, worth the price of admission.
Um, It costs "Nothing" to enter?
> The rest of the day was spent hitting the tourist traps. The area
> around the Eye and Big Ben is fucking gross, as is the Thames. As I say
> on my Flickr stream*, I've seen tanks at sewer plants that are cleaner.
> The Hudson's cleaner. I'd swim in the Hudson. I'd want to drown and
> die if I fell into the Thames. The high amount of trash and wings rats
> wasn't helping either. We skipped the Eye - a two hour wait - and kept
> walking.
>
> One amazing thing, for a city that's so hung up on 'security', and
> cameras everywhere, we saw maybe 4 or 5 cops. In fact, we saw more in
> Paris at the Eiffel Tower than all of London.
>
> Tower Bridge: see above on the Eye, though it was cleaner.
>
> London Taxis are neat, but all sound like old tractors, and the cabbies
> are a mixed bag. They also apparently never see tips, because they were
> thrilled when we tipped them.
>
> The Transport Museum - like 10 pounds to enter? That include a tube of
> KY?
All UK "paid for" museums and attractions are expensive by comparison with
what foreigners are used to in their own countries. (Don't know why)
> Mind the gap - Yeah, because nothing lines up EVER on the Underground.
> Especially fun on the Victoria Line where the step up give you that
> *extra* boost to slam your head into the top of the doorway. But riding
> on '67 stock? Fun fun. Just tiny.
>
> We eventually got tired of London and headed in for the night. I netted
> two huge blisters (remember my carbon footprint? Yes, my only pair of
> footwear on this trip were steel toed loggers...) but otherwise we came
> out pretty decent for a long day. The hotel had air conditioning and
> was a nice room, albeit a tad tiny. Remember, we're used to American
> sized motels, which are pretty big. Nonetheless, it worked well for the
> night. The next day would start with a hop to Paris.
>
> I wanted to like London. I thought I would. But it let me down - I was
> stunned by the dirt and grime, and the folks seemed to not be as nice as
> I'd had hoped. The Underground's a great system in terms of getting you
> around and it's VERY frequent, but it's not the most user-friendly, and
> it needs serious work, still. The taxis were nice in that the cabs beat
> anything in the US, but they sound like tractors and the cabbies are a
> mixed bag - not any different from the US, really. The good ones were
> great.
>
> Food? Send the Flake, keep the rest..
You spent two days in the country and ate supermarket food. How on earth
can you tell what the food is like?
tim
Willms
<tims_n...@yahoo.co.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
>> The roads are marked with 'look right' and 'look left'
>> as needed, on the ground by the crosswalk, which was very useful.
>> We both still managed to nearly get run over a few times....
>
> You only get that in areas where there are lots of one way streets.
>
> In "normal" towns you are expected to know which way to look :-(
If one is accustomed that the cars do not run on the right side of
the street...
But I had those problems on Great Britain (and in Japan), too. I was
automatically looking first left, then right, and if I saw a car
approaching, I would look at the person sitting on the front left seat
-- and was always looking in the wrong direction or the wrong face
(sometime I wondered how the car could move with nobody at the
steering wheel). It takes a conscious effort to reverse the sequence
one has been drilled for in childhood.
Cheers,
L.W.
Germany
Oliver Schnell
>
> "Philip Nasadowski" <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote in message
> >
>
> You spent two days in the country and ate supermarket food. How on earth
> can you tell what the food is like?
If you compare the same level of food in different countries, this can give
you at least an idea. Nevertheless, there is no doubt, that you can have
excellent food in UK. Some years ago, I head an four course dinner in
a top restaurant at Inverness with Haggis as the main course at a kind
of official occasion and it was excellent. But could I take this experience
as a general prove for quality of food in UK?
Or the other way round: If you compare the meals offered in a restaurant
car of a German ICE (this month e. g. "Beef olive with figs on a potato,
lemon and basil purée. The filling of dried figs, dates and sliced almonds
lends this traditional German dish a fruity, Mediterranean character. The
beef olives are browned all over, before being pot roasted in a sauce of
red wine, tomato purée, beef stock, vegetables and bacon. In Tim Mälzer???s
version of this dish he also includes a fruity potato and lemon purée, which
is prepared with plenty of basil and seasoned with a hint of nutmeg")
and what is served in a TGV-Bistro you will get a wrong impression
about the usually lovely French cuisine versus typical German food.
--
Oliver Schnell
Nick Fotis
> (Note to m.t.r.e readers: I'm a regular poster at m.t.r.a and since
> this is basically a trip of europe, a certain poster on both groups
> suggested I post it here, too. It wasn't my idea ;)
OK, I plead guilty :-)
Waiting anxiously to read your impressions from Paris and beyond.
N.F.
Willms
<nick....@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> Waiting anxiously to read your impressions from Paris and beyond.
He should also spend a few words about Wacken. Please (not too long
though, but for a public which is not specially geared toward that
kind of music).
It is always refreshing and fun to hear what foreigners perceive to
be interesting and strange to them of one's "own" country.
Cheers,
L.W.
Miles Bader
> As an American you've presumably never encountered the US immigration
> people's treatment of foreigners. They make the above look polite
Of course, US immigration is often not so friendly to Americans either...
-miles
--
Guilt, n. The condition of one who is known to have committed an indiscretion,
as distinguished from the state of him who has covered his tracks.
Stephen Sprunk
> "Philip Nasadowski" <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote in message
> news:nasadowsk-2F2E0...@news.optonline.net...
>> Welcome to London. What a fucking asshole.
>
> As an American you've presumably never encountered the US immigration
> people's treatment of foreigners. They make the above look polite
As a US citizen, I've observed many times that it's far easier for me to
enter other countries than return to my own; I can only imagine how bad
it is for foreign nationals.
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Oliver Schnell
> *** Warning ***
> I'll be up front here - everything wasn't great. We didn't fall in love
> with all of Europe. On the whole, it was good though. My posting style
> is blunt. I'm a blunt guy at times. If you can't stomach it, please
> make sure your computer's fitted with a functional spacebar, and use
> it....
Why do I have to think of this quote?
Phipps: Sir Cedric! Sir Cedric! Good news. We've finally found an heir!
Sir Cedric Willingham: That's wonderful, Duncan. Who is he?
Phipps: His name is Jones. Ralph Jones.
Sir Cedric Willingham: A good man?
Phipps: [embarrassed] Well. He has his strengths and his weaknesses. You
see, he's
[uncomfortable pause]
Phipps: American.
Sir Cedric Willingham: Quickly, Duncan! The strengths!
Oliver Schnell
Paul Corfield
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
>About an hour before landing in London, we were handed a 'landing card'
>which one apparently has to fill out. In block letters Like in 3rd
>grade. I was a bad American and didn't do this.
No "apparent" about it. Just like you can't get on a plane to the
States without presenting your life history / blood sample / DNA /
whatever via a website about two weeks before you set off. And you
think filling in a small document is some sort of hardship when arriving
in a foreign country?
>On landing in Heathrow, my first impression was we went off the runway.
>Seriously, it's that bad. The taxi to the terminal wasn't much better...
>
>If there's anything the British suck at more than food, It's
>architecture. Terminal 4 is fucking *ugly*. Really ugly. Anyway, we
>made our way to customs and the Spanish Inquisition began...
Since when were airports required to be visually attractive? I've not
flown from Newark but I'd hardly call JFK an oil painting.
>Customs: "Sir, WHERE are you STAYINg in LONDON?"
>Me: "At the Holiday Inn - my friend *points over to him* has the address"
>C: SIR, LONDON is a BIG city! (No shit, I'm from NY, there's a big city
>there too..)
>M: He has the address..
>C: How long are you staying?
>M: Today and tomorrow morning
>C: Where are you going after that?
>M: Paris
>C: Are you returning to the UK after that?
>M: No (I might have said 'thank god' after that...)
>C: So you're flying out of Paris?
>M: No (I should have told her it was none of her fucking business), I'm
>going to Amsterdam, Hamburg, Itzehoe, Wacken, Berlin, Munich, and
>Zurich. We're flying out of Zurich.
>C: *Eyes blink while she crunches that one*
>C: *stamps passport* Ok, BUT NEXT TIME fill the form out PROPERLY!!!!
>
>Welcome to London. What a fucking asshole.
Are you referring to yourself then? If you decide not to play by the
rules then expect immigration staff the world over to be punctilious
almost to the point of rudeness. They have a job to do - I can't say I
have enjoyed my encounters with US Immigration officials one bit. Still
as the presumption in the States these days is that every visitor is a
terrorist I refuse to travel there because I do not wish to be treated
with such hostility and negativity. It's a shame because I like what
I've seen of the place and there are loads more places I'd like to visit
but if you think the UK authorities are bad then take a long hard look
at your own.
>We headed for the train into London. The ticket machines are ok. They
>don't really explain the ticket options that well. Seriously, a 1st
>class ticket for a 15 minute ride? Hint: I don't give a shit about my
>carbon footprint (It's size 12, steel toed), tell me what I'm about to
>drop 18 pounds on...
For someone with an interest in transit operations you didn't do your
research very well. Your hotel was at Gloucester Road and yet you take
Heathrow Express and then catch the tube at Paddington when there is a
direct tube (Piccadilly Line) from T4 straight to Gloucester Road. Hmmm.
--
Paul C
Paul Corfield
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
>*** Part 3 (ish) ***
>
>Around London...
>
>We hunted down our hotel via the Underground. First impressions: It's
>a very useable system, but not an overly clean or user friendly one.
>The general state looks like the NYC subway circa the late 80's, minus
>the 'artwork'. Trains are frequent. The first one were were on were
>circa 1970s, and felt like DC switched resistance cars. The compressor
>and traction noises were more in line with early post war NYCTA stock
>than 70's NYCTA stuff. There was no air conditioning, a popular theme
>in Europe, thus the cars were a bit noisier and dirtier than you'd
>expect. Nothing bad.
Yes some of our trains are rather old. Some fleets are being replaced
while others will have to wait a few more years.
>We popped out at Gloucester Road, which is where our Hotel (see prior
>post) was. Cute area.
I guess that's one way to describe that part of Kensington.
>The station itself is severely overbuilt for a subway stop. This trend
>seemed to be confined to the older parts of the system (to be fair,
>other cities in the US and abroad are guilty of this). An above house
>station house and everything... it's overkill, though it looked neat
>anyway.
Eh? Gloucester Road had a redevelopment built over it a few years ago
- hence why you've got a Waitrose on the top. Most of our stations are
ridiculously small for the crowds they handle. I dread to think how
many hours I spent trying to sort out the ticket purchase problems at
Gloucester Road many years ago (in a previous job).
>At the hotel, our room wasn't ready yet (hey, it's barely 7:30 am!), so
>we stowed our bags. The hotel had a taxi stand, complete with a Asian
>guy in a top hat handling the taxis. Cute.
Very few hotels are able to book you into a room at 0730 in the morning.
Check in is usually after 1400. I'm surprised you were surprised at
this. I've certainly how to stow luggage at New York hotels until the
afternoon as check in was not possible.
>Mind the gap - Yeah, because nothing lines up EVER on the Underground.
You obviously didn't use the newer section of the Jubilee Line or the
Docklands Light Railway or the East London Line. They have level access
between platform and train.
>Especially fun on the Victoria Line where the step up give you that
>*extra* boost to slam your head into the top of the doorway. But riding
>on '67 stock? Fun fun. Just tiny.
Only if you're not watching what you're doing. I don't think I've ever
seen anyone clonk their head in a tube train and I only use the Tube
every day.
>I wanted to like London. I thought I would. But it let me down - I was
>stunned by the dirt and grime, and the folks seemed to not be as nice as
>I'd had hoped.
And I could say the very same about New York City or almost any large
city in the world. It's very difficult to keep everything "spotless"
when there are millions of people going about their business. It's not
real to expect everyone to be uniformly friendly to tourists. Most
American tourists seem frightened out of their skin if you offer to help
them - or perhaps it's just me that's too scary?
>The Underground's a great system in terms of getting you
>around and it's VERY frequent, but it's not the most user-friendly, and
>it needs serious work, still.
Goodness a positive comment. Was it a strain for you to write it?
>Next contestant: Paris.
God help Paris. If you couldn't cope with London I dread to think how
the French capital fared.
--
Paul C
Stephen Sprunk
> If you decide not to play by the rules then expect immigration staff
> the world over to be punctilious almost to the point of rudeness. They
> have a job to do
Agreed. It has to be an unpleasant job, and not following the rules
will undoubtedly make you a target. There is no profit in annoying
someone with the power to deport you at their whim.
> I can't say I have enjoyed my encounters with US Immigration officials
> one bit.
I haven't either--and that's as a US citizen.
> Still as the presumption in the States these days is that every visitor
> is a terrorist I refuse to travel there because I do not wish to be treated
> with such hostility and negativity.
The politicians rant about terrorists and pass stupid laws, but the
border agencies are far more concerned with illegal immigrants, which
everyone attempting to enter is assumed to be until proven otherwise.
Arthur Figgis
> I wanted to like London. I thought I would. But it let me down - I was
> stunned by the dirt and grime, and the folks seemed to not be as nice as
> I'd had hoped.
London dirty, expensive and full of unfriendly people and dubious food?
In other news, Benedict XVI recently attended mass.
> The Underground's a great system in terms of getting you
> around and it's VERY frequent, but it's not the most user-friendly, and
> it needs serious work, still. The taxis were nice in that the cabs beat
> anything in the US, but they sound like tractors and the cabbies are a
> mixed bag - not any different from the US, really. The good ones were
> great.
So you missed trying the famous echo in the British Library?
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Adam H. Kerman
>(Note to m.t.r.e readers: I'm a regular poster at m.t.r.a and since
>this is basically a trip of europe, a certain poster on both groups
>suggested I post it here, too. It wasn't my idea ;)
Hey! I like travelogues. No poo-poohing in advance, please.
Philip Nasadowski
Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Very few hotels are able to book you into a room at 0730 in the morning.
> Check in is usually after 1400. I'm surprised you were surprised at
> this.
I wasn't, actually. In fact, we were expecting it. My exclamation
point was more a jab in that direction - we arrived unrealistically
early, thus it's no surprise things weren't ready.
Philip Nasadowski
"Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.com> wrote:
> Hey! I like travelogues. No poo-poohing in advance, please.
And with that....City two: Paris (France)...
*** An American (or two) in Paris... ***
Waking up early enough, we got a cab right to St Pancras. Yes, we could
have hauled ourselves on the Underground, but we decided on a cab based
on...uh, we were 1/2 asleep at the time?
Anyway, at the station, things were easy: blip our online ticket under
the machine, enter, go through security (scan the luggage, metal
detector - no shoe removal). As expected, my boots set the thing off,
they wanded me and I'm on my way.
The passport inspection here was more pleasant: the characteristically
French guy with a characteristically French hat could have been a robot:
look, scan, stamp, hand back with a smile. That's it, we're 'in europe'
now.
The station's nice, clean, unhectic. We grab a bite, and wait for
boarding.
Once announced, getting to the track is nice and easy - up a motorized
walkway to track level. These are great with luggage - but too bad they
won't work in most places (especially NY Penn!).
On board - I'm riding backwards in a 2+2, With a table facing my friend.
Our other seats were booked, and thankfully by attractive young (legal!)
females :)
The doors close and we leave on time. Note to anyone from Amtrak
reading this: 'on time' means that when the clock showed the departure
time, the train left the station.
The initial acceleration of these trains yields a very interesting set
of inverter noises, but things quiet down and soon we're moving at a
good clip through the first of a few tunnels. Since the station's more
to to north side of town, we actually exit north and do a 180. No
biggie - we're already going pretty darn fast by the time we're out of
the tunnels.
Speed remain high - well over 100 (speeds quoted here in mph) - until
the tunnel, where we slow down a bit. I slept through the tunnel - it's
no different from entering NYC, only a bit faster, smoother and quieter.
We popped out in France, and the speed goes up again. 186? Sure felt
it. Interlockings so smooth you didn't feel them at all. Speed remains
high, even as we approach Gare du Nord. I'd say an even 100, right
until a few miles from it. We passed a Siemens building, with what's
got to be the world's largest rotating sign. Germans seem to like
spinning signs, as I later found out...
Ride quality is excellent - you just don't feel like you're moving fast
at all. The overall feel and performance of the thing blows the Acela
out of the water, there's just no comparison at all. And, like our
airport shuttle, speeds go high and STAY THERE until we're near the end
of the trip. No sudden stops to let a late train pass...
We arrived on time (Amtrak folk: see note above on what 'on time' means)
Saw some old stainless EMU equipment in the yard on the way in...
Gare du Nord's a nice station, and has large, friendly platforms.
We had a few questions about our Thalys ticket, which brought us into
our first real encounter with the French. Now, having heard horror
stories, I wasn't sure what to expect, but tried to keep an open mind.
And...surprise! Very nice and helpful. In fact, this was pretty much
the norm throughout Paris. I'd say out of the places we were in, Paris
was easily at or near the top in friendly people. Seriously.
We got our 3 day Metro/RER/Bus/tram/whatever tickets, and headed up to
Blanche, our stop. The line was served by a few vintages of equipment,
the newer stuff was an articulated (? I don't recall the cars sharing
trucks though) design where one could see down the whole train. Very
nice. The older stuff was neat, too. I noticed the builder's plates on
the newer cars - Areva has their fingers in everything in France too,
now?
Blanche is located in a ...mature... part of town. I noticed this
proximity to mature entertainment was a common 'coincidence' in my
friend's hotel selection. Anyway, off the main drag and up the hill, we
found our hotel. Or, not our hotel. Yep, wrong one (I didn't book it).
The lady's directions got us to the right place, and soon we were up in
our room. Small. Small bathroom, too. But, save for the lack of a/c,
I could only laugh. It's a hotel room, not a prison cell, and we're
only there a night (and it was clean and nice anyway). Heading down, my
friend decide to jump around in the (tiny!) elevator, and we get stuck
between floors. A few button presses later, and we're moving again.
The Metro's a nice system, and user friendly. Boarding is level
everywhere (not so on the RER), stations are pretty clan, and it's easy
to find one's way around. First stop, the Eiffel Tower. This required
a trip on the RER, too. The RER's interesting, but the bilevel trains
were were on (older) were a bit dirty and yucky. Operationally, the big
advantage here and on the newer metro cars is HUGE doors. Supermarket
wide. Performance was ok, but a bit sluggish feeling. 1.5kv? 25kv?
Anyway, we pop out by the tower and go looking for it - it's easy to
find.
It's HUGE. And I'm from the NYC area. It's flat out impressive to see
up close. The wait was impressive too - 2 hours just to get to the
first level. But worth it, not to mention the view as you wait to go to
the top isn't bad, and they loop the line around the outside. The view
at the top is excellent. Visibility was impressive - either we got an
unusually clear day or Paris just has clean air, because it was really
good.
Heading east towards Notre Dame gave us our first detour and bus ride -
there's big work going on and the line's closed. We didn't catch onto
this at first until I noticed were were sitting an awfully long time at
the station, and the lights went out on the train (this must be a
universal end of line signal - NYC used to and maybe still does do it).
We bailed, and watching the track info screen scrolling, saw that we
needed a detour bus (it was bilingual). So, follow the well-placed
signs along the way to the bus. This is something the NY MTA tends to
screw up with their replacement bus service. The bus gets us up into
the area (though somewhat south - we score photos of a nice fountain as
a result), and we go up and look. It's nice, but it doesn't leave much
of an impression on me. The 1 euro weigh scale on the sidewalk near
there says I'm 80kg. I wish :(
Diner - steak at a French restaurant - was great, and we amble around a
bit more, before deciding to head in for the night. We got one of the
rubber tire lines, this was newer equipment. It's not very quiet,
though acceleration was impressive. Actually, it was one of the noisier
trains we were on. There's a nice breeze through it as we go along -
but no a/c.
The next day, we headed up the hill by our hotel a bit, saw some of the
local sights, then headed into the Louvre. Along the way, we dump our
bag at Gare du Nord for the day, since we'll be leaving from there that
night. This netted a ride on the older rubber tired stock (quieter).
There's a lot of things the Louvre has. It's a huge place. Needless to
say, it even has a long wait to get in. I M Pei's pyramid just doesn't
fit, either, but it's there. Once we get in, we make a head towards
where everyone else is heading towards: The Mona Lisa. I'm not
kidding - half the people in the museum are there. It takes 1/2 an hour
to get a few pictures of it, and a lot of squishing and bumping (BTW, I
shot mostly Kodak Portra VC, 400 and 800, on a Nikon F2s, with the stock
50mm lens). Afterwards, we amble around and see the paintings, which
was interesting, though I'm not a huge art type. My friend is, and we
were there and heck, you can't visit Paris without seeing the Louvre, so
around and around we go...
We missed the Arc de Triomphe. The running joke on the trip was that
it was the Washington Square Park one (thus the references to WSP in my
flickr stream...). I'll see it next time...
A few hours later, we pop back up north on the RER and get to Gare du
Nord for our Thalys trip up to Amsterdam. We booked 1st class, and we
were looking forward to it.
The basic upshot? We could have and should have spent more time in
Paris (and France in general). I know on the next trip out there where
I'm flying out of (more on why I'd fly out of there, later). If you're
a American and reading this, don't believe the horror stories, it's a
great city, the folks are friendly, and it's well worth it.
The Metro/RER combo works great, though the swipe in swipe out on the
RER vs the swipe in only on the metro earned me some faceplants at the
turnstile, when I forgot to swipe out. One great thing that stations
had, and other cities (even London!) had, was at the entrance to the
platforms, a sign showing where you are and what stops are before/after
you. NYC needs this, desperately. Gaps were by and large well
controlled, though there were a few on the RER that were a bit...large.
A few stops are getting half height platform doors, which look weird but
i guess work. We didn't stop anywhere where they were already in
operation. I noticed the more touristy parts of town have the
characteristic Metro signs at the the entrances, but they're lacking
elsewhere. Whatever, they do look cool though.
Philip Nasadowski
*** First class, and they mean it! ***
Well, at Gare du Nord, we wait for our train. It's a nice red Thalys
and we're booked first class. After a day of walking and and day of
walking and a day of walking, we're ready for it. And as son as the
track's announced, we board. Nice long walk up to the first of two
coupled sets.
The service starts as soon as we board - our ticket's blipped and we
hear nothing more in that department. Papers, free wi-fi, a seemingly
broken power outlet, it's all there. The seating is 1+2 and big. The
recline feature is excellent, and should be copied by everyone: When
you recline, the bottom of the seat slides forward, the back slides down
and tilts out. Thus - the person behind you sees no change in legroom,
and doesn't offer you a shave.
We're off, on time again. Speeds are good, though a tad lower than the
Eurostar, and then we pass the signs...TGV /// TGV // TGV / TGV
The acceleration starts. Not heavy, but we pick up speed. It takes a
good few miles to get fully up there - 186mph operation ain't for the
NEC - and the ride's smooth as glass. Traffic on the highways we
sometime parallel looks like it's standing still, compared to us.
The service picks up, too. Drinks? Sure. Food? Yep. Another roll?
Of course. Coffee? Nah, I'll have water though. Another roll? Yes,
thank you. The rolls were nice, the Schwepps Indian Tonic was... Ok,
the rolls were nice. Perrier? I can barely down it. I'm reading the
side of the can, and shit, we remove that stuff from water in the
industry I'm in. My friend's going through can after can of it *shrug*.
The flip down table has an indent and even a elastostrap to hold your
can in place, though the ride's so smooth you don't need it. Curve
speeds are pretty high, though.
The bathroom was nice, though a tad dim. The toilet can down an
American sized poop no problem (in fact, most in Europe can - they seem
to use more water than ones in the US). The trash can has a foot button
to pop the lid open - nice, and the bathroom has an 'sos' button at
normal level and near the floor - interesting and thoughtful.
Brussels? We weren't going there, but if we were, we could have had a
cab arranged for us on board.
More coffee? I'll just have a water and a roll. My friend pretends to
be sophisticated and reads the Financial Times. I watch things fly by
at 186, and even get a picture or two (1/2000th sec!)
Ok, so, this must have set us back a lot, right. Nope, the medium tier
tickets we got ('Optiway') were only about $150. Yep, less than an
Acela, for far more service. Not to mention fast and on time.
As we get close to Brussels, we slow down, and pass a sign that has
25,000 crossed out, and 3,000 on a sign below it. Otherwise, you don't
even notice the voltage change - the lights stay on, the noise level's
the same, the train's rolling along.
As we get close, an annoucement: Beware of pickpockets at and around the
station. Holy shit, it's really _that_ bad?
The trip up north from there to Rotterdam is a bit slow and sluggish.
it looks like they're building some sort of new line/bypass for HSTs
though. Speeds aren't amazing.
North of Rotterdam, we hit direct fixation, 25kv and high speed again.
I'm noticing the rain clouds we're about to hit, to, and sure enough,
we're in a rainstorm. Interestingly, the rain doesn't even register on
the windows - they stay clean and dry the whole time. A weird feeling.
Speeds stay high until we hit NS land and the 1.5kv it brings with it.
We stop at Schiphol. Sheep hole? Ewwwwweeee... We amble along towards
Centraal. We get there, and pop out. On time. We also seem to have
lost the rear section of our train along the way. I'm guessing
Brussels, though you don't even notice the uncoupling...
Good lord, NS should be ashamed of themselves. It made Penn look nice
and attractive. I'm guessing there's some major construction going on
there? I'm hoping there is? It's a shithole, period. But, the train
ride up was great.
The thing is, Thalys and the TGV is what we're being sold in the US, but
the feds end up delivering half-assed 'results' like Acela. It's just
not the same. Not even close. The Acela rides like shit, is slower, is
more expensive for what you get, and nowhere near as reliable. And
that's the problem - we're being promised that TGV-esque HSR utopia -
look at the photos for any proposed project - and what we're getting
isn't even close. What's the old joke about Bill Gates, Hell, the
devil, and the demo? Why does HSR in the US seems the same way?
Next up: The city's logo is XXX. I'm not kidding
Nobody
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
Why DO Americans go to other countries, and expect "things" to be the
same as at home?
That's how youse lot got labelled with the "ugly" word.
Go outside The States to experience somefink different, and rejoice in
those differences, fer crying out loud.
Miles Bader
> Why DO Americans go to other countries, and expect "things" to be the
> same as at home?
>
> That's how youse lot got labelled with the "ugly" word.
I don't disagree, but it's not just Americans. For instance, British
and German tourists also have a reputation for being loud, overbearing,
and intolerant...
-Miles
--
Philosophy, n. A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
Jishnu Mukerji
am getting to relive some of those memories through your eyes!
On 8/24/2010 7:28 PM, Philip Nasadowski wrote:
> The doors close and we leave on time. Note to anyone from Amtrak
> reading this: 'on time' means that when the clock showed the departure
> time, the train left the station.
>
> The initial acceleration of these trains yields a very interesting set
> of inverter noises, but things quiet down and soon we're moving at a
> good clip through the first of a few tunnels. Since the station's more
> to to north side of town, we actually exit north and do a 180. No
> biggie - we're already going pretty darn fast by the time we're out of
> the tunnels.
Actually the first 90 degreesof the 180 that you mention happens just
outside St. Pancras before you enter the tunnel immediately following
the bridge across the ex-GN ROW out of Kings Cross. Once out of the last
tunnel in that set you should very quickly be up at 186 on HS-1.
> Speed remain high - well over 100 (speeds quoted here in mph) - until
> the tunnel, where we slow down a bit. I slept through the tunnel - it's
> no different from entering NYC, only a bit faster, smoother and quieter.
>
> We popped out in France, and the speed goes up again. 186? Sure felt
> it. Interlockings so smooth you didn't feel them at all. Speed remains
> high, even as we approach Gare du Nord. I'd say an even 100, right
> until a few miles from it. We passed a Siemens building, with what's
> got to be the world's largest rotating sign. Germans seem to like
> spinning signs, as I later found out...
Yes, once you get past the interlocking at Cocquelle(?) by the time you
pass through Calais Frethune station you should be pretty much up at 186 mph
So you completely missed the Fretin Triangle where the line to Brussels
splits off to the left and then the line from Brussels comes in and
joins from the left in a grade separated huge triangle. Quite impressive
actually, particularly since you hardly slow down for the interlocking
at all.
The LGV ends by the Villiers la Belle Gonesse station of the RER a few
miles north of St. Denis.
Jishnu.
Philip Nasadowski
Jishnu Mukerji <jis...@nospam.verizon.net> wrote:
> So you completely missed the Fretin Triangle where the line to Brussels
> splits off to the left and then the line from Brussels comes in and
> joins from the left in a grade separated huge triangle.
I slept through it. It's really that smooth...
Erwan David
[...]
>
> Saw some old stainless EMU equipment in the yard on the way in...
Surely some Z6300. They are all at end of life now.
[...]
>
> The Metro's a nice system, and user friendly. Boarding is level
> everywhere (not so on the RER), stations are pretty clan, and it's easy
> to find one's way around. First stop, the Eiffel Tower. This required
> a trip on the RER, too. The RER's interesting, but the bilevel trains
> were were on (older) were a bit dirty and yucky. Operationally, the big
> advantage here and on the newer metro cars is HUGE doors. Supermarket
> wide. Performance was ok, but a bit sluggish feeling. 1.5kv? 25kv?
> Anyway, we pop out by the tower and go looking for it - it's easy to
> find.
1,5 kV at this part but the speed is limited because 1) the line is
crowded inside Paris, and has many turns.
> It's HUGE. And I'm from the NYC area. It's flat out impressive to see
> up close. The wait was impressive too - 2 hours just to get to the
> first level.
Next time book in advance on internet, it is possible for many monuments
and helps to get less wait.
[...]
>
> Heading east towards Notre Dame gave us our first detour and bus ride -
> there's big work going on and the line's closed.
"Travaux castor" (beaver works) is every year from mid july to
mid-august to refurbish the line built in 1900.
> Diner - steak at a French restaurant - was great, and we amble around a
> bit more, before deciding to head in for the night. We got one of the
> rubber tire lines, this was newer equipment. It's not very quiet,
> though acceleration was impressive. Actually, it was one of the noisier
> trains we were on. There's a nice breeze through it as we go along -
> but no a/c.
Must be MP 89 They are on line 1 and line 14
[...]
> A few stops are getting half height platform doors, which look weird but
> i guess work. We didn't stop anywhere where they were already in
> operation.
Installation is done on line 1 which will switch to driverless mode,
thus the need for doors protecting the track.
--
Le travail n'est pas une bonne chose. Si ça l'était,
les riches l'auraient accaparé
Jishnu Mukerji
That is quite true. I have a video somewhere of a glass of red wine
sitting on the seat-back drop down table on a Eurostar doing 186mph
through Picardie. You can barely see ripples on it.
> Now, having heard horror
> stories, I wasn't sure what to expect, but tried to keep an
> open mind. And...surprise! Very nice and helpful. In fact,
> this was pretty much the norm throughout Paris. I'd say out
> of the places we were in, Paris was easily at or near the top
> in friendly people. Seriously.
Notwithstanding all the huffing and puffing that Americans seem to do
about the French, I have found the French to be friendly and charming
most of the time, and Paris still is one of my favorite cities. OTOH,
how some Americans behave in Paris leaves much to be desired IMHO ;)
Back in the early 90's I used to travel to Paris several times each year
while I was working on a European Commission funded ESPRIT project out
of an office in St. Quentin en Yvelines at (one of) the west end of the
RER-C Line (the one that passes by Eiffel Tower) - trains with those
quaint route designators like SARA and SVEN used to go there :) .
I used to stay at little nice hotel near Metro Pernety and used to walk
over to Gare Montparnasse to commute to St. Quentin en Yvelines on
Banlieu service to Rambouillet out of Montparnasse. Used to see those
beautiful TGV Atlantiques heading off towards Rennes and Marseilles out
of Montparnasse each day. They were brand new back then. Also used to
see the palaces of Versailles just past Versailles Chantier station on
the way each day! :)
BTW, RER-C had a significant graffiti problem even back then.
Jishnu.
William JONES
"Jishnu Mukerji" <jis...@nospam.verizon.net> a écrit dans le message de
groupe de discussion : 0dCdnWj_x-ECtujR...@giganews.com...
[...]
> I used to stay at little nice hotel near Metro Pernety and used to walk
> over to Gare Montparnasse to commute to St. Quentin en Yvelines on
> Banlieu service to Rambouillet out of Montparnasse. Used to see those
> beautiful TGV Atlantiques heading off towards Rennes and Marseilles out
> of Montparnasse each day. They were brand new back then. Also used to
> see the palaces of Versailles just past Versailles Chantier station on
> the way each day! :)
At Paris-Montparnasse, you would have seen TGV for Rennes indeed, but not
for Marseilles : they leave from Paris-Lyon !
A+
William.
tim....
"Hans-Joachim Zierke" <Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote in message
news:slrni78sc1.ims...@Odysseus.Zierke.com...
>
> Philip Nasadowski schrieb:
>
>
>> Good lord, NS should be ashamed of themselves. It made Penn look nice
>> and attractive. I'm guessing there's some major construction going on
>> there? I'm hoping there is?
>
>
>
> http://www.benthemcrouwel.nl/www.benthemcrouwel.nl/portal_presentation/transport/northsouth-line/s_noordzuidlijn-ceintuurbaan-northsouthline-0003.jpg/Image
> http://www.benthemcrouwel.nl/www.benthemcrouwel.nl/portal_presentation/transport/amsterdam-cs/s_amsterdam-centraal-central-station-0009.jpg/Image
>
>
>
> In short, they dig road and bus access parallel to the station, and
> build a new subway perpendicular to the station, under the whole thing,
> and also under the water, since Amsterdam CS is sitting on an island.
>
> So you dig under that harbour basin, under that station, while also
> putting in new foundations for that existing station, which is the
> most important in the country, and can't possibly be taken out of
> service. You also need upstairs connections from the subway to the
> existing station, preferably without letting the historical station sink
> down.
>
>
> I think it's supposed to be finished 2012, but I won't bet on it.
>
>
Are you using the English or the American meaning of "subway" in the above?
tim
Paul Corfield
<Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
[noordzuid lijn construction]
>I think it's supposed to be finished 2012, but I won't bet on it.
I think it is back to 2013 now and possibly later than that due to
settlement issues. Like you I would not bet on a rapid completion for
such a difficult project with all the history from the 1970s just
waiting to repeat itself if anything goes badly wrong.
There was a programme on Discovery Channel (or similar) a few weeks ago
showing some of the construction works. Some very high powered and
concerned officials from Amsterdam City Council decided they wanted to
inspect the concrete pouring works for part of the new support for
Centraal Station. It looks like an amazing construction challenge.
--
Paul C
Willms
<william.j...@pandora.be> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> > beautiful TGV Atlantiques heading off towards Rennes and Marseilles out
> > of Montparnasse each day. They were brand new back then. Also used to
> > see the palaces of Versailles just past Versailles Chantier station on
> > the way each day! :)
>
> At Paris-Montparnasse, you would have seen TGV for Rennes indeed, but not
> for Marseilles : they leave from Paris-Lyon !
Bordeaux is also a port city...
Cheers,
L.W.
Marc Van Dyck
>
> As we get close, an annoucement: Beware of pickpockets at and around the
> station. Holy shit, it's really _that_ bad?
>
such people like magnets, but some other places (Barcelona comes to
mind) are far worse.
> The trip up north from there to Rotterdam is a bit slow and sluggish.
> it looks like they're building some sort of new line/bypass for HSTs
> though. Speeds aren't amazing.
>
> North of Rotterdam, we hit direct fixation, 25kv and high speed again.
> I'm noticing the rain clouds we're about to hit, to, and sure enough,
> we're in a rainstorm. Interestingly, the rain doesn't even register on
> the windows - they stay clean and dry the whole time. A weird feeling.
>
You probably mean Antwerp, and not Rotterdam. Antwerp is still in
Belgium, and it's right after the tunnel going through town that you
get back on a high-speed line and 25 kV operation.
HSTs between Brussels and Antwerp travel on the classic line, being
upgraded to 100 mph, because it has been deemed impossible to build
a new rail line in such a densely populated area. And with 4 tracks
available all the way, the required capacity is there already. Normal
service, outside peak times, has 8 trains per hour each way on this
line.
> Speeds stay high until we hit NS land and the 1.5kv it brings with it.
> We stop at Schiphol. Sheep hole? Ewwwwweeee... We amble along towards
> Centraal. We get there, and pop out. On time. We also seem to have
> lost the rear section of our train along the way. I'm guessing
> Brussels, though you don't even notice the uncoupling...
Yes that was it. In Brussels many Thalys trains split, one part heading
for Amsterdam and the other one for Köln, Germany (where you have
convenient high speed connections towards Frankfurt, Berlin, Hamburg,
Munchen...).
--
Marc Van Dyck
Neil Williams
<marc.gr...@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
>No. I mean, no more than in any other big city. Train stations attract
>such people like magnets, but some other places (Barcelona comes to
>mind) are far worse.
The UK seems far less badly afflicted by this for some reason - thefts
from trains and stations don't seem all that common - it's certainly
never happened to me, nor have I ever witnessed it. I've long
wondered why - I could only come up with that UK stations tend to have
more staff than most of the rest of Europe, more security measures
e.g. CCTV, and by and large aren't situated in scummy parts of town as
is more common on the mainland.
Neil
--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
To reply put my first name before the at.
Marc Van Dyck
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:13:45 +0200, Marc Van Dyck
> <marc.gr...@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
>
>> No. I mean, no more than in any other big city. Train stations attract
>> such people like magnets, but some other places (Barcelona comes to
>> mind) are far worse.
>
> The UK seems far less badly afflicted by this for some reason - thefts
> from trains and stations don't seem all that common - it's certainly
> never happened to me, nor have I ever witnessed it. I've long
> wondered why - I could only come up with that UK stations tend to have
> more staff than most of the rest of Europe, more security measures
> e.g. CCTV, and by and large aren't situated in scummy parts of town as
> is more common on the mainland.
>
> Neil
Most probably an impression than anything else. You're obviously
british, and thieves operating in stations target mostly foreigners,
or people that evidently appear to be tourists, because they are
easier targets. That's why in UK you've never seen anything. I have
never been robbed in Belgium either. I have been in London recently,
and I did not find St Pancras or King's Cross to be in a less scummy
part of London than North, Central or Midi in Brussels.
--
Marc Van Dyck
Neil Williams
I almost posted "except Kings Cross/St Pancras"... there always has to
be an exception, and in this case it would seem to be the station that
"foreigners" would be most likely to use.
Willms
Jishnu Mukerji
> At Paris-Montparnasse, you would have seen TGV for Rennes indeed, but
> not for Marseilles : they leave from Paris-Lyon !
>
> A+
> William.
Yu're of course right. I was thinking Bordeaux and typing Marseilles.
Brain finger disconnect. Sorry about that.
Jishnu.
Philip Nasadowski
*** The city's logo is XXX. I'm not kidding ***
So, our evening Thalys pops us out an Amsterdam Centraal. Yay! The
immediate station and area looks like a dump, but also like there's some
construction going on. whatever. We grab our bags and start walking.
My friend doesn't know where the hotel is. That's lovely. Making
matters worse, all the street names are...well, i don't speak whatever
they speak in Amsterdam, so it might as well all be greek to me :(
After a good long walk, we finally find it, the 'lovely' Hotel Die Port
van Cleve. Ok, it's not the total shithole the reviews say, but it
needs work. The clerk hands us the city map (useless, like every other
one we get at any hotel), and immediately circles the red light district
and draws a short line to it. How coincidental- we're a block or two
over. We walk around the city, and it sure is walkable - nice, too,
save for the weed and hooker bullshit, and the drunk college kids it
seems to attract. But, interspersed, there's nice places.
We split for the evening, he runs over to find his 'entertainment', I go
back and shower up and sleep. Hey, it's late anyway. As with
everywhere else, the mattresses are a bit small, and mine has the
additional disadvantage of being old, worn out from fucking on, and not
that comfy.
Next morning, we go get day passes for the transit system. Buy right on
the streetcar. It's a tap in / tap out system that uses a paper pass
that somehow contains a chip in it. Works great. We go around to the
Van Gogh museum and naturally get lost (again). After finding it, we
both decide the 1 hour wait to get in isn't worth it and get lunch
instead. I have a pancake, albeit nothing like a US one, it's very thin
and is poured into the dish. More like crepe. whatever, it's good
enough and soon we're on our way romping around.
The XXX theme is repeated everywhere, on stonework on buildings, on the
city's trucks, on flags. Hey, it fits for a city where you can go
window shopping for sex :)
I notice the plentiful, nice and easy to spot orange mailboxes. TNT
runs the post office? Dynamite! :) We eventually get sick of dodging
Kamakazi bicyclists and head for a streetcar, but not before stopping at
Haagen-Dazs. Yeah, I know it's a US chain.
The streetcar system is nice - it goes everywhere in the area, and it's
useful as heck. It goes down a few narrow pedestrian only streets, and
through a few pedestrian squares. Where things are two narrow for two
tracks, gauntlet sections are used. I'm not sure exactly how they
resolve two streetcars arriving at the same time, but they do.
Pedestrians in europe seem to be no brighter than in the US, and we get
an occasional demo of the braking system's capabilities as a result.
I'm happy with traveling the streetcar system all day - it's like the
ultimate tour bus (cheap and it goes everywhere), my friend wants more
'entertainment', thus we split. I'm out in search of milk, cereal, and
a bag of ice (Fridge? In our hotel? No way!). This leads me to an
Albert Heijn, and milk (better than the UK, though France had the best
bottles, by far), but no ice. Nuts. And the milks are 1 liter, max.
I'm used to buying 1/2 and full gallons (1.9, 3.8 liters). I buy a 1
liter and pay for it, then immediately down half of it. Those nearby
can't believe what they're seeing. It's like nobody drinks milk in
Europe. But hey, I'm thirsty, and I'm sick of buying those little .5
and .25 liter squishes in multiple around town.
Hopping back on the streetcar, I decide to take it out to the end of the
line (it will, after all, go back eventually...). He eventually bails
in search of more 'entertainment' As the line gets farther out, the
city becomes a lot less hectic and nicer. The streetcar hits a more
semi private ROW, with the tracks covered in grass (no not that kind..)
and it's very nice.
Hitting the end of the line, I just swear I've seen the train station
before, and head inside. Yep, seen it in a book of mine - it's
Amsterdam Amstel, and it looks really nice inside. As it's getting
darkish out, I decide to head in and back to the hotel.
Amsterdam's a neat city, but I'm not sure what else there is to do if
you're not looking for weed or 'entertainment'. Nonetheless, it's clean
enough and interesting. The streetcar system is very nice. I didn't
make it onto the U bahn though. It's a very compact city in near
Centraal. I notice the pedestrian crossing signals click - I'm guessing
for blind people - but the clicks are confusing and you can't always
tell where they're coming from. It's a good idea, at least on paper,
though. I decide to book our Berlin hotel - internet access at the
hotel's computer is slow as hell. We noticed that at a few other
places, plus many liked o charge a good fee for it (even in room
connections).
Our bathroom was equipped with another weird hand wand dryer, this one
had a 120/240 outlet for shavers (as indicated by the cool looking
'shavers only' logo). Interestingly, I don't see any ground fault
protected outlets, which are required in the US in bathrooms and
kitchens. Also, the light switch is outside - that's not seen in the US
anymore. The elevator's fun - it's hall doors like a NYC apartment
complex - you look for the elevator, tug the door open, walk in (the
door swings like any other). But this one - I punch a floor and notice
- there's no car door closing. We just start up and go between floors,
with the doors making a smooth shaftway. This would never be allowed in
the US!
We've got our ticket to Hamburg ready. And the next day and a half are
going to be long ones - we're going to Wacken!
Next up: German precision, the DB way.
Miles Bader
> HSTs between Brussels and Antwerp travel on the classic line, being
> upgraded to 100 mph, because it has been deemed impossible to build
> a new rail line in such a densely populated area.
That's when you start tunneling...
-Miles
--
Would you like fries with that?
Glen Labah
Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
> Next morning, we go get day passes for the transit system. Buy right on
> the streetcar. It's a tap in / tap out system that uses a paper pass
> that somehow contains a chip in it. Works great.
Tap-in tap-out with microchip in the card sounds a lot like the ORCA
card Puget Sound is using. However, *they* require a $5 purchase of
card fee, and day tickets are not possible to purchase.
--
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam due to e-mail address
harvesters on Usenet. Response time to e-mail sent here is slow.
Arthur Figgis
> on 25/08/2010, Neil Williams supposed :
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:13:45 +0200, Marc Van Dyck
>> <marc.gr...@invalid.skynet.be> wrote:
>>
>>> No. I mean, no more than in any other big city. Train stations attract
>>> such people like magnets, but some other places (Barcelona comes to
>>> mind) are far worse.
>>
>> The UK seems far less badly afflicted by this for some reason - thefts
>> from trains and stations don't seem all that common - it's certainly
>> never happened to me, nor have I ever witnessed it. I've long
>> wondered why - I could only come up with that UK stations tend to have
>> more staff than most of the rest of Europe, more security measures
>> e.g. CCTV, and by and large aren't situated in scummy parts of town as
>> is more common on the mainland.
>>
>> Neil
>
> Most probably an impression than anything else. You're obviously
> british,
Now that's opening a can of worms!
and thieves operating in stations target mostly foreigners,
> or people that evidently appear to be tourists, because they are
> easier targets. That's why in UK you've never seen anything. I have
> never been robbed in Belgium either. I have been in London recently,
> and I did not find St Pancras or King's Cross to be in a less scummy
> part of London than North, Central or Midi in Brussels.
KX-StP is probably better than Midi these days.
I've had natives try to speak Dutch/German/Norwegian/Danish at me, so I
might not stand out too much in some places. Yet I've seen bad things
going on a Koeln Hbf (in fact I first went there on a school exchange,
and someone tried to grab the handbag of the mother of the family I
stayed with!).
Koeln seems to be the worst I've come across, the police once saying it
was because passengers were likely to be leaving the country so nothing
much could be done even if the crooks were caught (on one trip some
passengers grabbed hold of someone trying to steal a camera right in
front of them).
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK
Neil Williams
<afi...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>I've had natives try to speak Dutch/German/Norwegian/Danish at me, so I
>might not stand out too much in some places. Yet I've seen bad things
>going on a Koeln Hbf (in fact I first went there on a school exchange,
>and someone tried to grab the handbag of the mother of the family I
>stayed with!).
The worst I saw was someone running out of a train toilet while in the
process of injecting (presumably) drugs[1] at Hamburg Hbf. This was
in broad daylight. I have never seen anything remotely like that at a
UK station, save that I have on very rare occasions seen used syringes
at the back of the waiting shelter at a station I used to frequent.
[1] Could, I suppose, have been insulin, but the whole situation
didn't make it look that way.
Willms
<wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> The worst I saw was someone running out of a train toilet while in the
> process of injecting (presumably) drugs[1] at Hamburg Hbf.
Did she or he threaten you or anybody else?
Cheers,
L.W.
Neil Williams
> Am Thu, 26 Aug 2010 08:01:27 UTC, schrieb Neil Williams
>
> > The worst I saw was someone running out of a train toilet while in the
> > process of injecting (presumably) drugs[1] at Hamburg Hbf.
>
> Did she or he threaten you or anybody else?
It made me feel threatened. It's not the sort of thing that should be
taking place at a public location like a railway station, and it makes
a very big statement about the tone of the place.
Unless, of course, injecting medically necessary insulin and similar.
But it didn't look like that.
Neil
Willms
<pace...@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> > > The worst I saw was someone running out of a train toilet while in the
> > > process of injecting (presumably) drugs[1] at Hamburg Hbf.
> >
> > Did she or he threaten you or anybody else?
>
> It made me feel threatened.
I feel sorry for you!
> It's not the sort of thing that should be
> taking place at a public location like a railway station, and it makes
> a very big statement about the tone of the place.
I would expect such thing especially at railway stations. That is a
place where people gather, and not always the habitual ones.
Cheers,
L.W.
Arthur Figgis
A while ago some yoofs were smoking something unusually fragrant on a
train I was on. I declined the offer when it was passed round the coach!
Neil Williams
wrote:
>Am Thu, 26 Aug 2010 16:56:43 UTC, schrieb Neil Williams
><pace...@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
>
>> > > The worst I saw was someone running out of a train toilet while in the
>> > > process of injecting (presumably) drugs[1] at Hamburg Hbf.
>> >
>> > Did she or he threaten you or anybody else?
>>
>> It made me feel threatened.
>
> I feel sorry for you!
You feel sorry for me because I find the sight of the injecting of
illegal drugs unpleasant and threatening?
I would not wish to live in your desired society, then. You can keep
it.
>> It's not the sort of thing that should be
>> taking place at a public location like a railway station, and it makes
>> a very big statement about the tone of the place.
>
> I would expect such thing especially at railway stations. That is a
>place where people gather, and not always the habitual ones.
It is fortunately not anything I have encountered at a UK railway
station, let alone a well-staffed big-city one like Hamburg Hbf. It
is certainly not something I would expect someone to get away with at
such a station in the UK - I would expect them to be arrested very
quickly.
If people want to do things like that, in private is the only even
vaguely acceptable place for it to occur.
Neil Williams
<afi...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>A while ago some yoofs were smoking something unusually fragrant on a
>train I was on. I declined the offer when it was passed round the coach!
While smoking (of any kind) is not permitted on trains, that strikes
me as several orders of magnitude different from the injection of hard
drugs.
Charles Ellson
<wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> wrote:
>On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:12:29 +0100, Arthur Figgis
><afi...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>A while ago some yoofs were smoking something unusually fragrant on a
>>train I was on. I declined the offer when it was passed round the coach!
>
>While smoking (of any kind) is not permitted on trains, that strikes
>me as several orders of magnitude different from the injection of hard
>drugs.
>
While still an undesirable activity at least the injector is
containing his/her own immediate pollution.
Paul Corfield
<nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
>Part 5: Amsterdam
>
>*** The city's logo is XXX. I'm not kidding ***
>Amsterdam's a neat city, but I'm not sure what else there is to do if
>you're not looking for weed or 'entertainment'. Nonetheless, it's clean
>enough and interesting. The streetcar system is very nice.
While Amsterdam undoubtedly trades on its relaxed attitude to sex there
is far more to the place than that. There are excellent museums, the
Anne Frank house, the canals, great food, good bars, excellent relaxed
party atmosphere and I'm not referring to the drugs either. The Dutch
just know how to have fun. The tram system is excellent but there are
(and have been for years) serious financial and efficiency issues in the
public transport company.
It seems a shame that you have travelled all the way from the States and
are "doing" Europe by spending about 1 day in each capital. I know you
don't get big leave entitlements in the States but you can't hope to get
a feel for these places in such short visits.
--
Paul C
Willms
<wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:38:58 +0200, "Willms" <l.wi...@domain.invalid>
> wrote:
> >> > > The worst I saw was someone running out of a train toilet while in the
> >> > > process of injecting (presumably) drugs[1] at Hamburg Hbf.
> >> >
> >> > Did she or he threaten you or anybody else?
> >>
> >> It made me feel threatened.
> >
> > I feel sorry for you!
>
> You feel sorry for me because I find the sight of the injecting of
> illegal drugs unpleasant and threatening?
Because you feel threatening.
> I would not wish to live in your desired society, then. You can keep
> it.
It is not my desired society, on the contrary. I hate this
capitalist society which sees in us human beings nothing but material
to be exploited, denied of any human dignity.
> >> It's not the sort of thing that should be
> >> taking place at a public location like a railway station, and it makes
> >> a very big statement about the tone of the place.
> >
> > I would expect such thing especially at railway stations. That is a
> >place where people gather, and not always the habitual ones.
>
> It is fortunately not anything I have encountered at a UK railway
> station, let alone a well-staffed big-city one like Hamburg Hbf. It
> is certainly not something I would expect someone to get away with at
> such a station in the UK - I would expect them to be arrested very
> quickly.
Well, in Germany the concentration camps have been closed some time
ago. And I will resist any effort to create them again.
> If people want to do things like that, in private is the only even
> vaguely acceptable place for it to occur.
That was in the time when only the rich people of Europe did take
opium etc, before the merchants of death found a source of making
profit and multiplying their invested capital by drugging poor people,
too.
If you detest what this capitalist monster is doing of us humans,
than go and deal with it at the root.
Cheers,
L.W.
Arthur Figgis
>
> Neil Williams schrieb:
>> It is fortunately not anything I have encountered at a UK railway
>> station, let alone a well-staffed big-city one like Hamburg Hbf. It
>> is certainly not something I would expect someone to get away with at
>> such a station in the UK - I would expect them to be arrested very
>> quickly.
>
> Given that the UK has the highest number of drug-related deaths of all
> the EU (figures are almost as bad as those of the USA!), criminalization
> doesn't seem to help that much.
It might help if it means it happens out of the way where it won't
frighten the horses.
Perhaps it is like graffiti, where Continentals seem to have a much
higher tolerance level than Britons? (you can play "spot the livery" on
some Italian trains).
Neil Williams
wrote:
> If you detest what this capitalist monster is doing of us humans,
>than go and deal with it at the root.
Don't be ridiculous. Nothing other than their own complete idiocy
causes someone to begin taking hard drugs.
Charles Ellson
<Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
>
>Neil Williams schrieb:
>
>
>> You feel sorry for me because I find the sight of the injecting of
>> illegal drugs unpleasant and threatening?
>
>Unpleasant? Certainly.
>
>Threatening? Why?
>
You will find out when some dope-addled junkie threatens to stick his
needle in you if you refuse to make a financial contribution toward
his/her next fix.
>
>
>> It is fortunately not anything I have encountered at a UK railway
>> station, let alone a well-staffed big-city one like Hamburg Hbf. It
>> is certainly not something I would expect someone to get away with at
>> such a station in the UK - I would expect them to be arrested very
>> quickly.
>
>Given that the UK has the highest number of drug-related deaths of all
>the EU (figures are almost as bad as those of the USA!), criminalization
>doesn't seem to help that much.
>
It seems to work fairly efficiently in Saudi Arabia and Singapore. The
main fault in the system as currently run is that it does not take
away the trading value by destroying the need for the end-users to
obtain their supply from illegal sources. If the users can get their
supply free while being weaned off it then their money (or in many
cases somebody else's money or property) becomes unavailable to the
pushers whose product price is also being undercut.
What is conveniently forgotten by the "legalise all drugs" idiots is
the collateral family and social damage which would continue to occur
with uncontrolled recreational use. While it seems that some people
are capable of functioning almost normally with e.g. herion that does
not apply to many other substances or to all users.
Neil Williams
<Usenet...@Zierke.com> wrote:
>Unpleasant? Certainly.
>
>Threatening? Why?
The risk of AIDS and other such diseases from the needles for a start.
And just because unpleasant situations like that in a public place
make me feel threatened. And I'm someone who does a lot of travel,
including to places that aren't comfortable. Someone who doesn't is
likely to like it even less, and to feel put off rail travel by it.
>Given that the UK has the highest number of drug-related deaths of all
>the EU (figures are almost as bad as those of the USA!), criminalization
>doesn't seem to help that much.
I'm actually pro-legalisation and -taxation, but also strongly of the
view that a private residence is the *only* place where such conduct
should be permitted.
Neil Williams
<afi...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>Perhaps it is like graffiti, where Continentals seem to have a much
>higher tolerance level than Britons? (you can play "spot the livery" on
>some Italian trains).
To some extent, yes. Toleration of petty crime like that tends to
imply toleration of more serious crime as well. Though that said,
that isn't necessarily true of Germany - I witnessed a fight on
Kellinghusenstr. U-Bahn in Hamburg a good while ago, and the police
arrived and stopped it *very* quickly. And Hamburg has a *serious*
graffiti problem.
So, where do you stop? Fare-dodging? Graffiti? Pickpocketing?
Mugging? Serious assault? Crime on the railway (or indeed anywhere)
of any kind is not welcome. And if there are visible signs of it like
drug-taking and graffiti, it will send people to the "safety" of their
car.
Mizter T
On Aug 26, 8:26 pm, Hans-Joachim Zierke <Usenetspam...@Zierke.com>
wrote:
> Miles Bader schrieb:
>
> > I don't disagree, but it's not just Americans. For instance, British
> > and German tourists also have a reputation for being loud, overbearing,
> > and intolerant...
>
> Without doubt.
>
> But to my perception, it was worst in the 70s, both for Germans and
> British.
Must try harder...
spsffan
Do they serve beer at Hamburg Hbf? In public ?
OH MY GOD, the world is going to end!
Philip Nasadowski
Paul Corfield <aoo...@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> It seems a shame that you have travelled all the way from the States and
> are "doing" Europe by spending about 1 day in each capital. I know you
> don't get big leave entitlements in the States but you can't hope to get
> a feel for these places in such short visits.
This was partly by design - my boss gave me a full two weeks there (yes,
he paid for the plane ticket). I wanted to just sample what's out
there, and make notes for a return at another time. The initial trip
was going to be a lot more relaxed, but changes to it added and moved
things - remember that I was traveling with someone, and he had input,
too..
Arthur Figgis
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 20:39:45 +0100, Arthur Figgis
> <afi...@example.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps it is like graffiti, where Continentals seem to have a much
>> higher tolerance level than Britons? (you can play "spot the livery" on
>> some Italian trains).
>
> To some extent, yes. Toleration of petty crime like that tends to
> imply toleration of more serious crime as well. Though that said,
> that isn't necessarily true of Germany - I witnessed a fight on
> Kellinghusenstr. U-Bahn in Hamburg a good while ago, and the police
> arrived and stopped it *very* quickly. And Hamburg has a *serious*
> graffiti problem.
>
> So, where do you stop?
Things *I* want to do. Obviously...
Fare-dodging? Graffiti? Pickpocketing?
> Mugging? Serious assault? Crime on the railway (or indeed anywhere)
> of any kind is not welcome.
Though in Britain at least there will always be someone to try to excuse
it. Funnily enough, this will never be (say) a woman or law-abiding
teenage male who needs to travel alone, at night or in rough areas...
> And if there are visible signs of it like
> drug-taking and graffiti, it will send people to the "safety" of their
> car.
Quite. Unless it is hugely different elsewhere - perhaps people really
do look at the equivalent of "Wayne #&^%ed Chardonnay", "<your football
team> r gay" or "<minority> go home" sprayed over the side of a train or
etched into the window and think "aha, indigenous local culture with as
much validity as anything Leonardo or Shakespeare ever produced".
Arthur Figgis
Willms
<wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> On Thu, 26 Aug 2010 21:07:29 +0200, "Willms" <l.wi...@domain.invalid>
> wrote:
>
> > If you detest what this capitalist monster is doing of us humans,
> >than go and deal with it at the root.
>
> Don't be ridiculous. Nothing other than their own complete idiocy
> causes someone to begin taking hard drugs.
You expose yourself to be ridiculous. You will have to chose your
side.
L.W.
Willms
<wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> So, where do you stop? Fare-dodging? Graffiti? Pickpocketing?
> Mugging? Serious assault?
Obviously not. There was serious assault on several central Asian
country by exactly those forces who want to put all their victims out
of sight.
L.W.
Willms
<wensl...@pacersplace.org.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> >Unpleasant? Certainly.
> >
> >Threatening? Why?
>
> The risk of AIDS and other such diseases from the needles for a start.
> And just because unpleasant situations like that in a public place
> make me feel threatened.
"Wasch mir den Pelz, aber mach micht nicht naß", one says in German.
Wash my hide, but don get me wet, to translate that literally.
You want to lead a good life, but not made away of the dark side of
your existence. How pathetic.
L.W.
Willms
<cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> >Given that the UK has the highest number of drug-related deaths of all
> >the EU (figures are almost as bad as those of the USA!), criminalization
> >doesn't seem to help that much.
> >
> It seems to work fairly efficiently in Saudi Arabia and Singapore.
as in Nazi Germany. Till the bottom. Of course, the rich people are
relieved of seeing the reality of life when the poor are simply put in
concentration camps and killed. But is that life?
L.W.
Miles Bader
>> You feel sorry for me because I find the sight of the injecting of
>> illegal drugs unpleasant and threatening?
>
>
> Threatening? Why?
If some guy was running around in a narrow space with an exposed
hypodermic, and wasn't er, in the best state, I'd be nervous too.
Especially if it was a drug-user -- Aids and all that you know.
[If he was doing drugs by say, eating heroin-laced cookies, on the other
hand, I'd be a bit less nervous.]
-Miles
--
Abstainer, n. A weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure. A total abstainer is one who abstains from everything but
abstention, and especially from inactivity in the affairs of others.
Philip Nasadowski
*** German precision, the DB way... ***
It's a big day ahead, and we're up early. Got a 7am train to catch.
This involves hauling our 1/2 asleep asses to Amsterdam Centraal, and
taking an intercity train 15 minutes to Hilversum. The equipment's
double decker, and nice enough for... a 15 minute ride. It sure goes
through a lot of weird noises accelerating, which is something it sure
doesn't do that fast.
The catenary. Oh yes, that wonderful 1.5kv system. Not helping is the
size of the substations, which aren't very frequent either. They look
like they're maybe 5 or 6 MW, tops. Two transformers with a small
building wedged in between.
In any case, we eventually get there, and pop onto our train to Germany,
which has DB cars, NS staff. And it's not bad, the coaches are about on
par with an Amfleet, though much bigger windows. We ooze along through
the netherlands, until we hit the boarder, and an engine change. They
announce it, but you don't feel it, and it's not that slow anyway.
We're on our way shortly after, and make our first stop in Germany.
At which point, the Germans invade.
Our seat, apparently, has a reservation. There's nothing above or near
the seat to indicate this. In fact, we're not the only ones with this
problem. And everyone's talking / arguing it out. It's louder than a
grade school cafeteria, and ultimately, we end up standing the last 10
minutes of the trip.
We transfer at Osnabrück. Pop out, up the stairs and...
Our train is 5 minutes late.
Soon, it's 10 minutes late. It ambles in. I stand there pointing at my
wrist - hey, I expect this thing to be on time. We stuff in - there's
no seats and we don't have a seat reservation - and end up spending the
next hour or so in the nice, comfortable vestibule. We're not the only
ones. There's some announcement about the train being behind schedule
and please stop dicking around at the station.
We get to Hamburg effectively on time. Speeds are decent, about on par
with the NEC.
Hamburg Hbf - I'm warned beforehand it's a hectic place, but I'm used to
hectic, having been to Penn before the holidays. And Hamburg's MUCH
better laid out. We find a locker on the north bridge and it's the only
big one left. My friend decides at this point to go screwing around
with his contacts, and I'm stuck there for a few minutes defending the
open but filled locker from all comers. Well, he comes back, we lock
up, and off to get a quick bite. I go to McDonalds, and the poor girl
ringing up my order has to deal with a broken cash register. She
actually tells her boss it's kaputt. Seriously. I can't find the salt
- I later realize it's packed in little packets that look like American
sugar ones (our salt ones are tiny with two bumps of salt on them).
We get train info. i figure, let's try the info desk. Upon hearing our
destination of Itzehoe, the DB guy looks at us and says "Ahhhh, you're
going to Wacken?" Yep, we are. There's a printout, we go find the
ticket machine.
The ticket machines in Germany are fucking awesome. There's just no
other way to describe them. You can buy any ticket anywhere anytime.
We use this useful property a lot in the future. And they're easy to
use, unlike the ones in the US. They're a bit slow at making change,
though. We manage to somehow get 2 tickets to Itzehoe, and start
hunting for our train.
Friend: "What time does it leave?"
Me: "1:20, I think"
F: "Oh, it's 1:18 right now, we should get on it shouldn't we"
M: "Uh, we should run"
F: "You sure?"
We run for it, but about 20 feet from the stairs I hear the locomotive
kick on and see the pan sliding away.
One hour later, we're on the next train.
Some joker's gone around the tracks and painted smiley faces on the
yellow signal (axle counter?) boxes by the tracks. We're on he bottom
level of another double decker, and moving along nicely. The double
deckers used on DB and SBB are far superior to anything in the
northeast. They're nicer inside, and they ride better.
At Elmshorn, we say bye bye to our train and pick up the NOB connection
right after it (it's on time). That gets us to Itzehoe. The train's a
single level with a fairly low floor, decent interior, and good
performance. We're on the flip down seats by the bathroom, and there's
a group with bikes occupying the aisle. Lovely. We have to climb over
them at Itzehoe.
The Wacken open Air is fucking huge. It's big. It takes me an hour and
a half to walk the whole thing, minus the tent farm. It's a bit too
loud and too big, though. 4 stages at once, and lots of stuff. Lots of
drunk metalheads, too. By the end of the night (we stay till 2:30am),
there's passed out drunk folks in pools of vomit, everywhere. And no
wonder - they're pretty much only selling beer there. Water and sodas
are next to impossible to come by. Slayer was fun. The village itself
is interesting. I wonder how the locals deal with this, or if they even
care. Whatever - it's been going on a long time. It's well organized,
too.
Our gift bag is nice, and comes with a trash bag, poncho, various
stickers and things, ear plugs, a flashlight, and...a condom.
My friend's sneakers get totally trashed from walking around and smell
like piss, shit, and vomit by the time we get the bus back to Itzehoe.
We're not the only ones bailing out - and man, Germans are annoying when
drunk, as much so as Americans...
We use the magic ticket machine to buy tickets for our Hamburg - Berlin
segment. We get a seat reservation this time :) Then it's a 2 hour
wait till our train.
I somehow manage to end up spending the time on the train trip down to
Hamburg talking to a local. Among other things, I find out that nobody
in Germany seems to understand what air conditioning or refrigeration
is, or why us Americans seem to think it's everywhere* (well, it is in
the US..). We discuss DB and its various failings, and Amtrak and its
many failings. We finds the ticketing in the US to be amazingly
antiquated, though he says you can't buy a ticket on the train in
Germany anymore. Other aspects of life are compared. I'm not really
sure, but it doesn't seem like Europeans live really any better or worse
than us Americans. I notice that cities seem to get rural faster -
there's no megaopolis like the NYC Metro area in most places (Paris is
fucking huge though). The smaller sizes of everything, the lack of a/c,
the cost. Whatever. I figure it's more or less a draw. I'd like
Germany's rail system in the US though...
Wacken Open Air? Worth it, just for a day. You've got to be crazy to
go for a few. The town's cute, too. DB's ticket machines rule, DB's
timekeeping doesn't - it's arguably the worst of all the operators we've
been on (The next few legs were bad too). The people are nice and
helpful, though. The Class 101s sound somewhat like ALP-46s, but are
actually quieter, especially while sitting in the station. McDonalds
cash registers go kaputt a lot, though, in Germany...
We somehow find our way onto the right train and...I don't remember
anything beyond there, I was too wiped out to. We arrive in berlin
eventually, and another adventure begins...
(Posting note - the next few legs will appear sunday or monday, since
I'm away from the computer this weekend. in any case, I just replaced
the heads in my Pioneer RT-909 reel to reel, those who know what those
are understand why I'm not hunched over a computer... :)
*Not helping - I burn up in high temperatures and humidity. I just do,
no clue why. I like it cold...
Glen Labah
Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
> Hamburg talking to a local. Among other things, I find out that nobody
> in Germany seems to understand what air conditioning or refrigeration
> is, or why us Americans seem to think it's everywhere* (well, it is in
> the US..).
Except Portland and Seattle.
Though, we're seeing more and more of it in recent years.
They finally got A/C installed on all the MAX cars now. Quite a few of
the buses have it too, but their engines overheat if they actually turn
it on.
--
Please note this e-mail address is a pit of spam due to e-mail address
harvesters on Usenet. Response time to e-mail sent here is slow.
Charles Ellson
wrote:
>Am Thu, 26 Aug 2010 19:51:07 UTC, schrieb Charles Ellson
><cha...@ellson.demon.co.uk> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
>
>> >Given that the UK has the highest number of drug-related deaths of all
>> >the EU (figures are almost as bad as those of the USA!), criminalization
>> >doesn't seem to help that much.
>> >
>> It seems to work fairly efficiently in Saudi Arabia and Singapore.
>
> as in Nazi Germany.
>
*****GODWIN ALERT!!!!*****
ITYF Mr Shickelgruber's staff also did a nice line in editing to fit
things to their propaganda.
>Till the bottom. Of course, the rich people are
>relieved of seeing the reality of life when the poor are simply put in
>concentration camps and killed. But is that life?
>
No need for concentration camps if the system encourages the "lower
orders" to delete themselves.
Wolf Behrenhoff
> We transfer at Osnabrück. Pop out, up the stairs and...
>
> Our train is 5 minutes late.
>
> Soon, it's 10 minutes late.
Sounds like DB... I have experienced a lot of delays on this route.
Some years ago a friend of mine went home to visit her parents over the
weekend - and on Sunday, she always took the last IC back to Hamburg.
She was sure it would be late and that she would miss the last subway
train because of the delay - and get a free Taxi ride. She did that
three of four times :-) At least she told me so.
> The ticket machines in Germany are fucking awesome. There's just no
> other way to describe them. You can buy any ticket anywhere anytime.
I agree, the new ones are very good and easy to use.
> I somehow manage to end up spending the time on the train trip down to
> Hamburg talking to a local. Among other things, I find out that nobody
> in Germany seems to understand what air conditioning or refrigeration
> is, or why us Americans seem to think it's everywhere* (well, it is in
> the US..).
Actually, new subway trains in Hamburg [1,2] (to be put in operation
next year) will have AC. There are also plans to equip S-Bahn trains
with AC [3], but it will take some years. At least most buses already
have AC.
Wolf
[2] (in German, including table of technical data)
http://www.de.alstom.com/pr_corp/2006/de/38683.EN.php?languageId=EN&dir=/pr_corp/2006/de/&idRubriqueCourante=15075
[3] (in German)
http://www.bahninfo.de/artikel/8824/et-474-plus-wurde-vorgestellt/
tim....
"Glen Labah" <gl4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gl4317-E8F033....@mx01.eternal-september.org...
> In article <nasadowsk-97CFE...@news.optonline.net>,
> Philip Nasadowski <nasa...@usermale.com> wrote:
>
>> Hamburg talking to a local. Among other things, I find out that nobody
>> in Germany seems to understand what air conditioning or refrigeration
>> is, or why us Americans seem to think it's everywhere* (well, it is in
>> the US..).
>
>
> Except Portland and Seattle.
>
> Though, we're seeing more and more of it in recent years.
>
> They finally got A/C installed on all the MAX cars now. Quite a few of
> the buses have it too, but their engines overheat if they actually turn
> it on.
I assumed he was talking about houses.
Most modern trains in Europe are conditioned, but houses in northern Europe
never are. It's a completely unnecessary luxury that would be useful for
about 3 days every decade
tim
Willms
<nasa...@usermale.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> I somehow manage to end up spending the time on the train trip down to
> Hamburg talking to a local.
> he says you can't buy a ticket on the train in
> Germany anymore.
which is not true for each and every train. It is true for a large
part of the trains which as regional and commuter trains are under the
administration of the federal states, which are mostly in a common
tariff and ticketing area with other modes of transport (metro, tram,
local buses).
But one can buy a ticket on the long distance trains (IC, ICE, D,
night trains) run by DB for profit. There is a surcharge for buying
tickets on those trains, but it is possible.
Cheers,
L.W.
Neil Williams
> Do they serve beer at Hamburg Hbf? In public ?
They do at Euston as well. I don't really have an answer to that one
as I suppose alcohol is only legal for historical reasons. Same with
caffeine - a lot of the aggression you see by Tube commuters is
probably because of the venti triple-shot latte they've just had.
But we have, as a society, decided that both of those are socially
acceptable, and most of the time they don't lead to trouble in railway
stations.
Neil
Neil Williams
> You want to lead a good life, but not made away of the dark side of
> your existence. How pathetic.
Wha? I choose that my existence doesn't have any involvement with
illegal drugs. Why should I wish to involve myself in others'
misguided decision to get involved in them?
Neil
Neil Williams
> You expose yourself to be ridiculous. You will have to chose your
> side.
Not yours, for sure, as every argument you make seems to be centred
around the evils of capitalism rather than the practicality of dealing
with crime, which occurs in both capitalist and communist societies.
Neil
Neil Williams
> If some guy was running around in a narrow space with an exposed
> hypodermic, and wasn't er, in the best state, I'd be nervous too.
> Especially if it was a drug-user -- Aids and all that you know.
And that was exactly what happened. Not nice.
It also raises the question of whether people like him had left
needles lying around on train seats, for instance.
Neil
Willms
<pace...@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
Your existence is intertwined with that. It is just your pathetic
effort to deny it. You live in this society, and can't get away from
it. Shutting your eyes brings the danger to crash into some hard
structures...
Cheers,
L.W.
Willms
<pace...@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> On Aug 26, 10:26 pm, "Willms" <l.wil...@domain.invalid> wrote:
You don't deal with the crime if you just shut the victims out of
your view.
cheers,
L.W.
Paul Rigg
1 make you fill in an online form before you set off and charge you
£9 for the privilege
2 Refuse you entry if you have ever had any non motoring
entanglements with the police no matter how minor and how long ago and make
you go to the embassy to apply for an expensive visa.
3 take your finger prints.
Everything else is just what US immigration ask on arrival in the US.
And then you might have something to complain about.
Miles Bader
> 1 make you fill in an online form before you set off and charge
> you £9 for the privilege
> 2 Refuse you entry if you have ever had any non motoring
> entanglements with the police no matter how minor and how long ago and
> make you go to the embassy to apply for an expensive visa.
> 3 take your finger prints.
Why exclude motoring?
-Miles
--
"Don't just question authority,
Don't forget to question me."
-- Jello Biafra
Neil Williams
> You don't deal with the crime if you just shut the victims out of
> your view.
Those taking illegal drugs are not victims. Those who they rob to get
money for their fix are, of course.
I will reiterate my point - nobody other than themselves can choose to
engage in such a practice.
Neil
Neil Williams
> Your existence is intertwined with that. It is just your pathetic
> effort to deny it. You live in this society, and can't get away from
> it. Shutting your eyes brings the danger to crash into some hard
> structures...
I don't deny it. I just don't want it occurring in/on public
transport. Just as, for instance, I wouldn't want it occurring in a
school or a supermarket.
Would you prefer to see people shooting up drugs in the street or on
railway stations? If so I reiterate - I would not wish to live in
your chosen society.
Neil
Neil Williams
> "Paul Rigg" <gzero...@tiscali.co.uk> writes:
> > 1 make you fill in an online form before you set off and charge
> > you £9 for the privilege
> > 2 Refuse you entry if you have ever had any non motoring
> > entanglements with the police no matter how minor and how long ago and
> > make you go to the embassy to apply for an expensive visa.
> > 3 take your finger prints.
>
> Why exclude motoring?
I think the point was that the above is (roughly) what the US does.
Neil
Miles Bader
>> You don't deal with the crime if you just shut the victims out of
>> your view.
>
> Those taking illegal drugs are not victims. Those who they rob to get
> money for their fix are, of course.
>
> I will reiterate my point - nobody other than themselves can choose to
> engage in such a practice.
I also rather wonder what L.W.'s response would have been, in that same
situation...
Would he embrace the "victim" with a hearty hug and learn his sad story
of capitalist oppression (while using his iron will and the cleansing
fury of socialism to laugh off any needle stabs)? Perhaps a shared
sneer?
-Miles
--
Kilt, n. A costume sometimes worn by Scotchmen [sic] in America and Americans
in Scotland.
Willms
<pace...@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> > You don't deal with the crime if you just shut the victims out of
> > your view.
>
> Those taking illegal drugs are not victims.
But those who take legal drugs are?
No, those people of which you met are the victims of this capitalist
society which denies them a human existence and destroys human beings.
Have you ever heard of Soyleng Green? This film is a scary utopia, but
it is possible only because it extrapolates a reality of this society
where human beings are at best a commodity, but nothing more.
> Those who they rob to get money for their fix are, of course.
Ah, you poor fellah, just take care that your illusions about the
reality of your life does not get shattered!
> I will reiterate my point - nobody other than themselves can choose to
> engage in such a practice.
Everbody can only chose between the choices which are offered to him
or her. Between pest and cholera, mostly.
You should get angry about this society which lets many people
without a choice.
Cheers,
L.W.
Willms
<pace...@gmail.com> auf misc.transport.rail.europe :
> Would you prefer to see people shooting up drugs in the street or on
> railway stations?
Ah, I understand, you want the misery to be visible to each and
everyone in the open street instead of the relative closure of the
hidden corners of a railway station.
L.W.
Stephen Sprunk
> "Paul Rigg" <gzer...@tiscali.co.uk> writes:
>> 1 make you fill in an online form before you set off and charge
>> you £9 for the privilege
>> 2 Refuse you entry if you have ever had any non motoring
>> entanglements with the police no matter how minor and how long ago and
>> make you go to the embassy to apply for an expensive visa.
>> 3 take your finger prints.
>
> Why exclude motoring?
Because of the US's car-oriented nature, minor automobile-related
offenses are not really considered crimes by American cops; they're
considered a normal part of life. Ditto for other minor offenses that
you cannot be arrested for, only given a "citation".
S
--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Paul Rigg
Maybe I should add that i have not had any such entanglements. But I did
read the exclusions to the visa waiver program (sic) and apparently you need
to apply for a visa even if you were found not guilty of something.. Ever!
No rehabilitation of offenders or anything.
How they would know I have no idea.
Like the callsign by the way, a heck of a lot of dots in it!
Neil Williams
> Ah, I understand, you want the misery to be visible to each and
> everyone in the open street instead of the relative closure of the
> hidden corners of a railway station.
There was nothing hidden about the situation I described. It was
right in view on a platform.
In the toilets, behind locked doors and without leaving any sharps
behind, might be borderline acceptable if the user is homeless and
thus can't fall back on the "private home" idea I already mentioned.
But not in public - not *anywhere* in public.
Neil
Neil Williams
> Everbody can only chose between the choices which are offered to him
> or her. Between pest and cholera, mostly.
>
> You should get angry about this society which lets many people
> without a choice.
Perhaps. But there are certain things which should not occur in
public.
Neil