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When does helping keep up the house become paying rent?
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Rich Carreiro
May 23, 2017, 8:03:13 PM5/23/17
to
This question is specifically asking about the technical
definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
to ever find out or care.
Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
paying for things.
Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
the eyes of the IRS?
--
Rich Carreiro rlc-...@rlcarr.com
--
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<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2011) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
to ever find out or care.
Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
paying for things.
Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
the eyes of the IRS?
--
Rich Carreiro rlc-...@rlcarr.com
--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2011) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
MTW
May 23, 2017, 9:19:02 PM5/23/17
to
On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 5:03:13 PM UTC-7, Rich Carreiro wrote:
> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
> the eyes of the IRS?
The line would be when/where Person A attains an "accession to wealth." See IRC 61 generally.
> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
> the eyes of the IRS?
Alan
May 23, 2017, 10:34:46 PM5/23/17
to
On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
> This question is specifically asking about the technical
> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
> to ever find out or care.
>
> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
> paying for things.
>
> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
> the eyes of the IRS?
>
Is the "helping out" payment required for the use or occupancy of the
> This question is specifically asking about the technical
> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
> to ever find out or care.
>
> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
> paying for things.
>
> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
> the eyes of the IRS?
>
property? If yes, it is rental income. If not, it is not rental income.
Stuart O. Bronstein
May 24, 2017, 10:32:10 AM5/24/17
to
MTW <mtwi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Rich Carreiro wrote:
>> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
>> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
>> the eyes of the IRS?
>
> The line would be when/where Person A attains an "accession to
> wealth." See IRC 61 generally.
I agree. When the roommate starts paying more than her half of the
> Rich Carreiro wrote:
>> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
>> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
>> the eyes of the IRS?
>
> The line would be when/where Person A attains an "accession to
> wealth." See IRC 61 generally.
non-deducdtible costs, it starts to be rent.
--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
Rich Carreiro
May 24, 2017, 10:47:13 AM5/24/17
to
Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> writes:
>On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
>> This question is specifically asking about the technical
>> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
>> to ever find out or care.
>>
>> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
>> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
>> paying for things.
>>
>> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
>> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
>> the eyes of the IRS?
>>
>Is the "helping out" payment required for the use or occupancy of the
>property? If yes, it is rental income. If not, it is not rental
>income.
So technically even paying $10 towards even a personal expense
>On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
>> This question is specifically asking about the technical
>> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
>> to ever find out or care.
>>
>> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
>> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
>> paying for things.
>>
>> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
>> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
>> the eyes of the IRS?
>>
>Is the "helping out" payment required for the use or occupancy of the
>property? If yes, it is rental income. If not, it is not rental
>income.
like food is reportable rental income if doing so is a requirement
of living there?
(Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure I'm understanding you)
--
Rich Carreiro rlc-...@rlcarr.com
Barry Margolin
May 24, 2017, 11:27:27 AM5/24/17
to
In article <87a862c...@swing-shift.time-tripper.com>,
than just your fair share.
Otherwise, you're a roommate and you're splitting the expenses, rather
than a tenant.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
Rich Carreiro <rlc-...@rlcarr.com> wrote:
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> writes:
>
> >On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
> >> This question is specifically asking about the technical
> >> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
> >> to ever find out or care.
> >>
> >> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
> >> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
> >> paying for things.
> >>
> >> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
> >> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
> >> the eyes of the IRS?
> >>
> >Is the "helping out" payment required for the use or occupancy of the
> >property? If yes, it is rental income. If not, it is not rental
> >income.
>
> So technically even paying $10 towards even a personal expense
> like food is reportable rental income if doing so is a requirement
> of living there?
>
> (Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure I'm understanding you)
I don't think so. As someone else posted, you have to be paying more
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> writes:
>
> >On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
> >> This question is specifically asking about the technical
> >> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
> >> to ever find out or care.
> >>
> >> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
> >> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
> >> paying for things.
> >>
> >> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
> >> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
> >> the eyes of the IRS?
> >>
> >Is the "helping out" payment required for the use or occupancy of the
> >property? If yes, it is rental income. If not, it is not rental
> >income.
>
> So technically even paying $10 towards even a personal expense
> like food is reportable rental income if doing so is a requirement
> of living there?
>
> (Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure I'm understanding you)
than just your fair share.
Otherwise, you're a roommate and you're splitting the expenses, rather
than a tenant.
--
Barry Margolin
Arlington, MA
Stuart O. Bronstein
May 24, 2017, 11:57:49 AM5/24/17
to
Barry Margolin <bar...@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> Rich Carreiro <rlc-...@rlcarr.com> wrote:
>> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> writes:
>> >On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
>> >> This question is specifically asking about the technical
>> >> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
>> >> to ever find out or care.
>> >>
>> >> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
>> >> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
>> >> paying for things.
>>
> Rich Carreiro <rlc-...@rlcarr.com> wrote:
>> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> writes:
>> >On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
>> >> This question is specifically asking about the technical
>> >> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
>> >> to ever find out or care.
>> >>
>> >> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
>> >> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
>> >> paying for things.
>>
>> So technically even paying $10 towards even a personal expense
>> like food is reportable rental income if doing so is a
>> requirement of living there?
>>
>> (Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure I'm understanding
>> you)
>
> I don't think so. As someone else posted, you have to be paying
> more than just your fair share.
>
> Otherwise, you're a roommate and you're splitting the expenses,
> rather than a tenant.
I agree. My recollection is that to the extent that a person is
>> like food is reportable rental income if doing so is a
>> requirement of living there?
>>
>> (Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure I'm understanding
>> you)
>
> I don't think so. As someone else posted, you have to be paying
> more than just your fair share.
>
> Otherwise, you're a roommate and you're splitting the expenses,
> rather than a tenant.
sharing the costs, that's not income. If you had a tenant who was a
sole tenant, and they paid their own electric bill, that wouldn't be
income to the owner. I don't see how it would be different if the
owner was also living there.
--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
Alan
May 24, 2017, 6:41:56 PM5/24/17
to
(code, regs, court decisions) that carves out an exception for sharing
of costs. If you own the property or you are the lease holder and you
offer to let someone else use that property or occupy that property on
the condition that they pay you for that use, you have rental income. It
does not matter that you say "okay guys, you can live here but you have
to pick up your fair share of the utilities". If they can not live there
unless they pay for the utility usage, you are charging them for the use
and that makes the payment rental income.
I would be more than happy to change my mind if someone can show me a
regulation or court decision that carves out an exception for sharing of
costs under the scenario I identified. See Treas. Reg. 1.61-8
Alan
May 24, 2017, 7:27:13 PM5/24/17
to
On 5/24/17 7:45 AM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
>>> This question is specifically asking about the technical
>>> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
>>> to ever find out or care.
>>>
>>> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
>>> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
>>> paying for things.
>>>
>>> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
>>> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
>>> the eyes of the IRS?
>>>
>> Is the "helping out" payment required for the use or occupancy of the
>> property? If yes, it is rental income. If not, it is not rental
>> income.
>
> So technically even paying $10 towards even a personal expense
> like food is reportable rental income if doing so is a requirement
> of living there?
>
> (Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure I'm understanding you)
>
See my reply to Stuart's post. Your scenario is totally unrealistic but
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> writes:
>
>> On 5/23/2017 4:58 PM, Rich Carreiro wrote:
>>> This question is specifically asking about the technical
>>> definition, regardless of how unlikely it may be for the IRS
>>> to ever find out or care.
>>>
>>> Person A owns and lives in a condo unit. Person A's
>>> girlfriend moves in to the unit and wants to "help out"
>>> paying for things.
>>>
>>> Where is the line (if there is one) where "helping out"
>>> would become "paying rent that has to be reported" in
>>> the eyes of the IRS?
>>>
>> Is the "helping out" payment required for the use or occupancy of the
>> property? If yes, it is rental income. If not, it is not rental
>> income.
>
> So technically even paying $10 towards even a personal expense
> like food is reportable rental income if doing so is a requirement
> of living there?
>
> (Not arguing with you, just trying to make sure I'm understanding you)
>
there are situations where a personal expense such as food is rental
income. Think of "board" in the phrase "room and board". The payment
for food is rental income if you could only live there if you paid for
board.
John Levine
May 24, 2017, 8:07:51 PM5/24/17
to
In article <og51o4$ph$1...@dont-email.me>,
rent with roommates would be committing tax fraud. Somehow, if that
were the case, you'd think we'd have heard about it by now.
R's,
John
Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> wrote:
> If you own the property or you are the lease holder and you
>offer to let someone else use that property or occupy that property on
>the condition that they pay you for that use, you have rental income.
If this theory were true, everyone in the country who is splitting the
> If you own the property or you are the lease holder and you
>offer to let someone else use that property or occupy that property on
>the condition that they pay you for that use, you have rental income.
rent with roommates would be committing tax fraud. Somehow, if that
were the case, you'd think we'd have heard about it by now.
R's,
John
Stuart O. Bronstein
May 25, 2017, 12:00:35 AM5/25/17
to
John Levine <jo...@iecc.com> wrote:
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> wrote:
>> If you own the property or you are the lease holder and you
>>offer to let someone else use that property or occupy that
>>property on the condition that they pay you for that use, you have
>>rental income.
>
> If this theory were true, everyone in the country who is splitting
> the rent with roommates would be committing tax fraud. Somehow,
> if that were the case, you'd think we'd have heard about it by
> now.
I know I saw it in a tax court case or some other authoritative source,
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> wrote:
>> If you own the property or you are the lease holder and you
>>offer to let someone else use that property or occupy that
>>property on the condition that they pay you for that use, you have
>>rental income.
>
> If this theory were true, everyone in the country who is splitting
> the rent with roommates would be committing tax fraud. Somehow,
> if that were the case, you'd think we'd have heard about it by
> now.
but it was years ago, and I am unable to find it now. I'm not
completely comforted by the fact that, upon a google search, Turbotax
agrees with me.
--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
Stuart O. Bronstein
May 25, 2017, 12:00:35 AM5/25/17
to
Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> wrote:
> See my reply to Stuart's post. Your scenario is totally
> unrealistic but there are situations where a personal expense such
> as food is rental income. Think of "board" in the phrase "room
> and board". The payment for food is rental income if you could
> only live there if you paid for board.
In that case it would be a business, and those expenses would be
> See my reply to Stuart's post. Your scenario is totally
> unrealistic but there are situations where a personal expense such
> as food is rental income. Think of "board" in the phrase "room
> and board". The payment for food is rental income if you could
> only live there if you paid for board.
deductible. In a case where one person takes in a roommate, they are
sharing expenses. Do you have taxable income when you pay for a meal
and your companion pays you back for his portion?
--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com
Alan
May 25, 2017, 1:39:13 PM5/25/17
to
On 5/24/17 8:59 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> wrote:
>
>> See my reply to Stuart's post. Your scenario is totally
>> unrealistic but there are situations where a personal expense such
>> as food is rental income. Think of "board" in the phrase "room
>> and board". The payment for food is rental income if you could
>> only live there if you paid for board.
>
> In that case it would be a business, and those expenses would be
> deductible. In a case where one person takes in a roommate, they are
> sharing expenses. Do you have taxable income when you pay for a meal
> and your companion pays you back for his portion?
>
Apples and oranges. The meal involved a loan, not residential rentals.
> Alan <temp...@vacationmail.com> wrote:
>
>> See my reply to Stuart's post. Your scenario is totally
>> unrealistic but there are situations where a personal expense such
>> as food is rental income. Think of "board" in the phrase "room
>> and board". The payment for food is rental income if you could
>> only live there if you paid for board.
>
> In that case it would be a business, and those expenses would be
> deductible. In a case where one person takes in a roommate, they are
> sharing expenses. Do you have taxable income when you pay for a meal
> and your companion pays you back for his portion?
>
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