Schools and Christmas
Circe
another thread, I have been puzzling over my son's public school's policy
with regard to Christmas. To wit, the assumption is that *everyone*
celebrates it. Yesterday, there was a Christmas program. It started with the
band playing a Hannukah song of some sort, but from there on, it was pretty
much all Christmas. My son's class sang _We Wish You a Merry Christmas_, for
example. Then, today, his class put on a performance of a poem called
_Christmas Cookies_ for the parents. His teacher even went so far as to call
the performance their Christmas gift to us!
The irony here is that *I* celebrate Christmas, despite being non-Christian,
yet I can't help feeling vaguely offended by this stuff. I mean, if I were
an observant Jew, I think I would be really upset to have my child singing
Christmas songs and reciting Christmas poems in school, even when the
songs/poems weren't specifically *religious* in nature. And even in the
absence of these performances, all the little workbooks my son is
coloring/reading/writing seem to have Christmas-related themes this month
(it was Thanksgiving last month, of course, and Halloween the month before
that).
What's everyone else's take on this sort of stuff? I can't really find much
to object about in the Thanksgiving stuff, but I can certainly see that both
Halloween and Christmas might be the source of some heartburn in some
households. Are public schools just recognizing the culture in an acceptable
way with the stuff, or does it amount to a sort of promotion of the dominant
culture that shouldn't be permitted in the interest of diversity? I'm
interested to hear your opinions.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
Been there, done that, worn it on my T-shirt.
"The only problem with babies is they don't keep worth a darn." -- My Mom
This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"The best Christmas gift ever came wrapped in a manger" -- sign at local
church
Beth Kevles
Hi -
In *our* public school, they sing winter songs (like Jingle Bells,
Frosty the Snowman). In the older grades they seem to learn some of the
more traditional Christmas theme music (like Joy to the World) but they
balance it with LOTS of other music, some from Chanukah, some Kwanzaa,
and some explicitly multicultural/inclusive, ie something called "We are
the Same", that I've never heard but my kids can sing :-)
My 2nd grader is also in a violin group, not related to school, and has
never heard the carols that the kids are learning. So he learns them in
the violin context, but not in the school context. Fascinating.
I think that if you want a better-balanced presentation, you need to be
active. Talk to the teachers and explain that you don't want mere
lip-service paid to non-Christians. A single song doesn't make it for
you. But then be prepared to offer to help! Suggest, and even provide
music, for several Chanukah songs (and ones from different cultures will
make your point stronger -- our school did a couple of Ladino ones), and
some inclusive songs (It's a Small World kind of stuff) and present a
list of winter songs that are NOT Christmas songs that they can use in
their program.
I don't think it's a good idea to exclude religion from the schools, at
least not at this level. But it IS a good idea to present a balanced
program so that no one religion is made to seem more important/valid
than any other. If there are other non-Christians in your school
(regardless of faith) they may be interested in helping you.
As with everything in the public schools, things don't change unless
parents request it AND offer ways to make the changes seem reasonable
and easy. (Teachers are VERY busy; easiness in your best friend :-)
I hope these suggestions help,
--Beth Kevles
bethk...@aol.com
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
Cheryl S.
news:Z5MM9.15707$6k.9...@news1.west.cox.net...
> What's everyone else's take on this sort of stuff? I can't really find
much
> to object about in the Thanksgiving stuff, but I can certainly see
that both
> Halloween and Christmas might be the source of some heartburn in some
> households. Are public schools just recognizing the culture in an
acceptable
> way with the stuff, or does it amount to a sort of promotion of the
dominant
> culture that shouldn't be permitted in the interest of diversity? I'm
> interested to hear your opinions.
I don't think it's right at all. I'm offended on behalf of everyone in
Julian's school who doesn't celebrate Christmas. I think throwing in a
token Chanukah song does not make up for it at all. If anything it just
perpetuates the false, but common, notion among the kids (and likely
many adults) that "Chanukah is what Jewish people celebrate instead of
Christmas", by including a passing mention of it in a program that is
otherwise clearly a Christmas celebration.
Looking at it from a practical standpoint, however, I'm not sure what
his school should do instead. I'm sure they'd have many more parents
complaining about a lack of any Christmas programs, than they get
complaints about the current activities. And, well, we are a democracy,
lol. There are too many religions and too many holidays for a school to
recognize all of them, and religious education is not the responsibility
of a public school anyway. What you described is definitely over the
top and inappropriate IMO. One religion should not be favored to the
complete exclusion of all others. I think it should be scaled back
significantly, only since eliminating it completely is pretty much
impossible, but I'm probably in the minority.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 20 months
Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.
JennP
> What's everyone else's take on this sort of stuff?
What you've described is a *big* no-no in any school I've worked in here in
CT. In fact, I'm pretty sure our town has some type of policy in writing on
celebrating religous holidays in school. Let me tell you, it is followed.
JennP.
Banty
>
>While we've been having our very interesting discussion about Christmas in
>another thread, I have been puzzling over my son's public school's policy
>with regard to Christmas. To wit, the assumption is that *everyone*
>celebrates it. Yesterday, there was a Christmas program. It started with the
>band playing a Hannukah song of some sort, but from there on, it was pretty
>much all Christmas. My son's class sang _We Wish You a Merry Christmas_, for
>example. Then, today, his class put on a performance of a poem called
>_Christmas Cookies_ for the parents. His teacher even went so far as to call
>the performance their Christmas gift to us!
I can definately see the problem with the token inclusion of Hannukah songs, and
it's especially transparent this year as these concerts are mostly being held
*after* Hannukah. I agree that if Jewish traditions are to be taught about (and
they should be taught about), the important Jewish holidays should be discussed
much more than Hannukah,
I'd be much more comfortable with a winter celebration with a couple of secular
Christmas songs included. Others when appropriate.
The funny thing is, my *son* is really strong on not singing religious carols or
having religious ornaments on our tree, although I consider the religious carols
to be among the prettiest (and consider them largely secularized in importance)
and don't mind having the religious ornaments we receive as gifts on our tree.
So *he's* the one who objects most to religious carols or borderline Christmas
stuff going on in school.
Banty
Marie
news:au05m...@drn.newsguy.com...
> The funny thing is, my *son* is really strong on not singing religious
carols or
> having religious ornaments on our tree,
How old is your son? Does he have any religious upbringing? Just curious...
Marie
GI Trekker
to object about in the Thanksgiving stuff, but I can certainly see that both
Halloween and Christmas might be the source of some heartburn in some
households. Are public schools just recognizing the culture in an acceptable
way with the stuff, or does it amount to a sort of promotion of the dominant
culture that shouldn't be permitted in the interest of diversity?>>
"Diversity" is a term that is too often used to give PREFERENTIAL treatment to
a distinctly meager minority that doesn't deserve the level of consideration
that this term grants them. It's probably the most egregious level of the PC
mindset, and it offends me (but this offense doesn't count for people that
follow the diversity/tolerance philosophy).
As for Christmas, the vast majority of people in the United States still
celebrate it to one degree or another, whether it's Santa and reindeer, or
commemorating the birth of our Lord Jesus. My advice? Roll with it. There is
absolutely no reason or excuse for raising a ruckus about it and potentially
ruining a lot of people's holidays.
No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your home. Please
don't try to tell the majority of others what should or should not be
acceptable in public society.
Sharon Fitzgerald
I certainly understand your feelings. Here in Puerto Rico, a 95%
Catholic, 99.9999999% Christian country, its all Christianity, all the
time. As an atheist, I was not amused by some things including some
overt religious stuff (like praying during meetings) even in my US
Federal Government office.
In re both the military base school and this private school, the
Christmas shows are pretty much as you have described for you son's
school. The overt emphasis on Christmas and especially the religious
side strikes me as sponsored, sanctioned proselytizing. That said, I'm
fairly certain my girls don't pick up on that side and are just
concerned about memorizing the songs.
This year, the second grade did a Chanuka song that was actually pretty
catchy. And it was interesting that this year we were invited to join a
Chanuka celebration at one of our neighbor's house who recently moved
here from Israel. It was really lovely how they let the youngest child
light the candle and everyone sang a special song and we all ate
sufganiot (I had two!). In that family, they let the kids drip candle
wax on paper and into water which my girls were ALL OVER. I suspect I
drove up the worldwide price of candles during the subsequent week as my
girls experimented with wax art.
Getting back to your query, I guess some of this school-sponsored stuff
does bother me on a low level. But that stuff gets lost in the noise
from all the other crap associated with this particular school.
sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)
Beth Kevles
Another poster wrote:
As for Christmas, the vast majority of people in the United States still
celebrate it to one degree or another, whether it's Santa and reindeer,
or commemorating the birth of our Lord Jesus. My advice? Roll with
it. There is absolutely no reason or excuse for raising a ruckus about
it and potentially ruining a lot of people's holidays.
No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your
home. Please don't try to tell the majority of others what should or
should not be acceptable in public society.
Public society and public schools are entirely different. In the US, we
*require* that church and state (that is, religion and public schols) be
kept separate. We do this in order to NOT promote one religion over
another. In this country also protect the rights of the minority. One
of these rights is to NOT have their children proseletyzed by a
different religious group in a place where they are required to be (ie,
public school).
If you think that Christmas celebrations are NOT a form of
proseletyzation, think again. They make a powerful impression on
children, and especially on children in the minority.
Children still can, and do, celebrate Christmas outside of school. And
they're certainly allowed to talk about it in the school. It's the
authority figures (teachers, etc.) who are limited, and who are required
to be sensitive to the minorites whom they teach.
None of the Christian families I know (and I know LOTS) have expressed
any regret that Christmas is soft-pedalled in the public schools. Many,
in fact, seem relieved. They LIKE having some control over the way in
which their religious beliefs are presented to their children. And to
their credit, they do NOT like imposing on their non-Christian friends.
Circe
> Public society and public schools are entirely different. In the US,
> we *require* that church and state (that is, religion and public
> schols) be kept separate. We do this in order to NOT promote one
> religion over another. In this country also protect the rights of
> the minority. One of these rights is to NOT have their children
> proseletyzed by a different religious group in a place where they are
> required to be (ie, public school).
>
> If you think that Christmas celebrations are NOT a form of
> proseletyzation, think again. They make a powerful impression on
> children, and especially on children in the minority.
>
Christianity or proseletyzing by what it's doing WRT Christmas programs.
Ironically, since the program has been purely secular, it actually supports
the sort of Christmas my family does. And I've been arguing forcefully in
"the other thread" that Christmas *isn't* a strictly Christian holiday. And
I have no problem with schools emphasizing other strictly secular holidays,
like Thanksgiving or Independence Day. So why do I find this emphasis on
secular Christmas in a public school so troubling? I guess because, while it
doesn't impinge on my beliefs or practices in any way, I can see how it
could be impinging on other people's in ways they wouldn't appreciate.
Still struggling...
Sharon Fitzgerald
> I think my struggle is that I don't feel the school is promoting
> Christianity or proseletyzing by what it's doing WRT Christmas programs.
> Ironically, since the program has been purely secular, it actually supports
> the sort of Christmas my family does. And I've been arguing forcefully in
> "the other thread" that Christmas *isn't* a strictly Christian holiday. And
> I have no problem with schools emphasizing other strictly secular holidays,
> like Thanksgiving or Independence Day. So why do I find this emphasis on
> secular Christmas in a public school so troubling? I guess because, while it
> doesn't impinge on my beliefs or practices in any way, I can see how it
> could be impinging on other people's in ways they wouldn't appreciate.
>
> Still struggling...
It sounds like you object to anyone having anything stuffed down their
throat. If so, I agree.
It bothers me so much that I routinely tell my girls they probably
shouldn't just blindly choose atheism and they must figure out what they
want to believe. Now I do expose them to scientific evidence for
evolution and such but they know I don't give a hoot what they believe
when it comes to religion.
Marion Baumgarten
>
> >
> I think my struggle is that I don't feel the school is promoting
> Christianity or proseletyzing by what it's doing WRT Christmas programs.
> Ironically, since the program has been purely secular, it actually supports
> the sort of Christmas my family does. And I've been arguing forcefully in
> "the other thread" that Christmas *isn't* a strictly Christian holiday. And
> I have no problem with schools emphasizing other strictly secular holidays,
> like Thanksgiving or Independence Day. So why do I find this emphasis on
> secular Christmas in a public school so troubling? I guess because, while it
> doesn't impinge on my beliefs or practices in any way, I can see how it
> could be impinging on other people's in ways they wouldn't appreciate.
>
> Still struggling...
> --
> Be well, Barbara
> (Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
>
>
The impression that my children have been given is that it's rude to say
"Christmas"- that somehow "Holiday" is a nicer thing to say. Well the
holiday my family celebrates is Christmas. C-H-R-I-S-T-M-A-S. Personally
( and I'm 42) I never remember participating in any kind of Christmas/
Santa play or anything of the sort at school, nor have my kids. Younger
children have a concert where they sing variety of music - what I would
categorize as mildly religious vaguey Christmas type, a hanukah song or
something else like Shalom, somthing wintery, something African American
which is supposed to be for Kwanzaa - except that there's no Kwanzaa
music- so it ends up being an spiritual which of course is Christian
music. (Pet Peeve- when my first grader came home and told me black
people clebrate Kwanzaa and white people clebrate Christmas. And this is
when he had a black priest at church!) I did mention to my son's second
grade teacher when he came home with a packet entitled "Holidays Around
the World" whihc featured various countries and holidays - Hannukah,
Christmas, Diwali and Ramadan that every country where Christmas was
celebrated mentioned that some people go to church (midnight in France
for example) except for the US!
My 5th grader had a "Care Fair" at school just before Winter Breakto
raise money for Make a Wish, which since they had just finishd Number
the Stars was WWII themed (Nazi Knockdown anyone?).
8th grader coordinated a shool fundraiser where they sold hot chocolate
and lollipop bouquets and refreshments at school dances aand raised
$1100 which they used to buy presents for 4 familes referred to them
from the township. I think this was great. The school BTW has various
charitable projects running throughout the year and students who are
doing charitable work (collecting mittens or backpacks or cellphones or
whatever) for confirmation or bar mitzvahs are allowed to use bulletin
board space and have a collection box at school.
Marion Baumgarten (whose daughter is at a party exchanging Secret Santa
gifts with her Christian, Hindu, Jewish and non-religious friends.)
Banty
>
>"Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:au05m...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> The funny thing is, my *son* is really strong on not singing religious
>carols or
>> having religious ornaments on our tree,
>
>How old is your son?
He is ten years old.
>Does he have any religious upbringing? Just curious...
Of course not.
Banty
Tracey
"JennP" <nojenniferp...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:RZMM9.48147$qF3.3062@sccrnsc04...
> What you've described is a *big* no-no in any school I've worked in here
in
> CT. In fact, I'm pretty sure our town has some type of policy in writing
on
> celebrating religous holidays in school. Let me tell you, it is followed.
>
> JennP.
I'm in CT, too. And JennP is right. I graduated from high school almost 20
years ago, and I remember that there was a big to-do around the time I was
in 3rd or 4th grade (mid-late 70s) One year at our "Christmas Concert"
there were all Christmas Carols and a play of some sort (probably Twas the
Night before Christmas or such) and we all dressed in white with garland
halos and angel wings to sing. The next year, suddenly we had a "Winter
Holiday Concert" and there were only secular songs, plus "O Tannenbaum", at
least one Hanakuh (spelling bad, sorry) and some more 'other cultures' type
stuff, but definitely NOT Christmas ever again after that.
Circe, you should ask your local school district for a copy of their written
policy about these sorts of things. As JennP said, they for sure should
have one.
Tracey in CT
Banty
mari...@mindspring.com says...
>
>The impression that my children have been given is that it's rude to say
>"Christmas"- that somehow "Holiday" is a nicer thing to say. Well the
>holiday my family celebrates is Christmas. C-H-R-I-S-T-M-A-S. Personally
>( and I'm 42) I never remember participating in any kind of Christmas/
>Santa play or anything of the sort at school, nor have my kids. Younger
>children have a concert where they sing variety of music - what I would
>categorize as mildly religious vaguey Christmas type, a hanukah song or
>something else like Shalom, somthing wintery, something African American
>which is supposed to be for Kwanzaa - except that there's no Kwanzaa
>music- so it ends up being an spiritual which of course is Christian
>music. (Pet Peeve- when my first grader came home and told me black
>people clebrate Kwanzaa and white people clebrate Christmas. And this is
>when he had a black priest at church!)
Ah, yes - Kwanzaa being the "Black Christmas" like Hannukah is the "Jewish
Christmas". Arggh. While Kwanzaa is a fine endeavor to establish a beautiful
new constructive tradition, it *does not* displace religious observances of its
participants, and actually hasn't really caught on in a lot of Black
communities. It's put there next to Hannukah in the schools to say "lookie how
multicultural we are lookie how multicultural we are".
>I did mention to my son's second
>grade teacher when he came home with a packet entitled "Holidays Around
>the World" whihc featured various countries and holidays - Hannukah,
>Christmas, Diwali and Ramadan that every country where Christmas was
>celebrated mentioned that some people go to church (midnight in France
>for example) except for the US!
Huh?
Banty
Marie
> >Does he have any religious upbringing? Just curious...
>
> Of course not.
I was just wondering how he came to his decision on religous songs and
ornaments. We aren't a religious family, but some of my relatives are and
fill my daughters' heads with the stuff. I am trying to get it through to
them that everyone believes different things, and no one is wrong for having
different beliefs. Hopefully as they get older they can pick and choose what
they want to believe.
Marie
lazy man
> "Diversity" is a term that is too often used to give PREFERENTIAL treatment to
> a distinctly meager minority that doesn't deserve the level of consideration
> that this term grants them. It's probably the most egregious level of the PC
> mindset, and it offends me (but this offense doesn't count for people that
> follow the diversity/tolerance philosophy).
>
GI Trekker...you're right on target.
Marion Baumgarten
>
> >I did mention to my son's second
> >grade teacher when he came home with a packet entitled "Holidays Around
> >the World" whihc featured various countries and holidays - Hannukah,
> >Christmas, Diwali and Ramadan that every country where Christmas was
> >celebrated mentioned that some people go to church (midnight in France
> >for example) except for the US!
>
> Huh?
>
> Banty
Not sure what this means- did you not understand what I wrote? It was a
confusing sentence.
Rosalie B.
I didn't understand what you wrote. I did think it was confusing.
Did you mean that all the countries where Xmas was celebrated had some
reference in the packet to people going to church except for the US?
Do you think that was on purpose - that they took out the references
in the US because of separation of church and state, or was it because
we don't attend church at Xmas in the US?
grandma Rosalie
Banty
>
>"Banty" <Banty_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:au0jv...@drn.newsguy.com...
>> >Does he have any religious upbringing? Just curious...
>>
>> Of course not.
>
>I was just wondering how he came to his decision on religous songs and
>ornaments.
I'm really not sure, except to think that he's identified this as an identity
thing.
Banty
Banty
mari...@mindspring.com says...
Sure seems to be. So the packet said specifically that people dont' go to
church on Christmas in the U.S?? That's a "huh".
Banty
H Schinske
>policy about these sorts of things. As JennP said, they for sure should
>have one.
>
>Tracey in CT
I'd like to know what ours is, because our "winter concert" was a whole lot
like the one Barbara described.
--Helen
Jacqueline Rochelle
news:Z5MM9.15707$6k.9...@news1.west.cox.net...
> The irony here is that *I* celebrate Christmas, despite being
non-Christian,
> yet I can't help feeling vaguely offended by this stuff. I mean, if I were
> an observant Jew, I think I would be really upset to have my child singing
> Christmas songs and reciting Christmas poems in school, even when the
> songs/poems weren't specifically *religious* in nature.
<<snippage>>
Australian Jew here. When I was at school, I never had to sing religious
songs if I chose not to [we are talking about 20 years ago here!]. This
pleased my parents who did not think it was the role of a public school to
teach me a religion. I also attended Hebrew school. No one I knew, even at
Hebrew school, sang Chanukah songs however; indeed we hardly even observed
it.
The funniest point though, is in the middle of summer, at 35 degrees, there
were bunches of kids singing songs with lyrics like "dashing through the
snow...". Now *that* is inappropriate. :-)
Jacqueline
Jacqueline Rochelle
news:20021220185701...@mb-bh.aol.com...
> No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your home.
Please
> don't try to tell the majority of others what should or should not be
> acceptable in public society.
Exactly. Follow this advice.
Jacqueline
Marion Baumgarten
>
> >
> >Not sure what this means- did you not understand what I wrote? It was a
> >confusing sentence.
>
> I didn't understand what you wrote. I did think it was confusing.
>
> Did you mean that all the countries where Xmas was celebrated had some
> reference in the packet to people going to church except for the US?
>
> Do you think that was on purpose - that they took out the references
> in the US because of separation of church and state, or was it because
> we don't attend church at Xmas in the US?
>
> grandma Rosalie
Yes- every country where Christmas was celebrated had a reference to
people going to church except the US. And yes, i think it was
deliberate.
Marion Baumgarten
No -it omitted any reference to church at all. It mentioned church for
Germany, Sweeden, Italy and Francem but not for the US.
Banty
Ah - OK.
Mabye the reference to Americans going to church didn't make it through a
textbook committee worried about the establishment clause (not saying this would
be a legitimately relevant detail)
Banty
Rosalie B.
When I was in school (back in the 40s) there was no real accommodation
made for non-Christians except that the Bible readings in the morning
had to be from the Old Testament. There was a little discussion about
it in 8th grade Civics because Madeline Murray OHare was in the news
about that time, and my Civics teacher was Jewish.
But I had a minor epiphany when I was at summer school in Maine the
summer of 1956 (to make up the French I flunked) after my freshman
year in college when the kids in the dorm (many of them Jewish girls
from NYC) wanted to sing songs, and the only ones that everyone knew
the words to were .... Jingle Bells and other such songs. I realized
at that point that these songs had no particular Christmas
significance for the non Christians. It did seem sort of funny to
sing about dashing through the snow - even in Maine it gets hot in the
summer.
grandma Rosalie
Vicki S
> What's everyone else's take on this sort of stuff? ... I can certainly
> see that both Halloween and Christmas might be the source of some
> heartburn in some households. Are public schools just recognizing the
> culture in an acceptable way with the stuff, or does it amount to a sort
> of promotion of the dominant culture that shouldn't be permitted in the
> interest of diversity? I'm interested to hear your opinions.
Speaking as someone trying to raise two Jews in south central Indiana
(yes, I'm a fool - next question?) where there are almost no Jews -
Speaking as someone who went to public school primarily in places where
I was the only Jewish student -
Speaking as someone who, no matter where in the US she raises her
children, has Christian in-laws and lives in a majority-Christian
nation -
Speaking as someone with a son with a serious language delay, who is
therefore already in public school at three years of age -
And speaking as someone who is very grateful for the public school
program that her son is enrolled in -
It really, really bothers me, but I've done pretty much nothing about
it.
I guess it caught me off guard. One day Razi had all this Christmas
stuff in his backpack. I mentioned it to my DH, and he said that as
long as they did wreaths and Santa, not baby Jesus in the manger, it
wasn't considered a violation of the separation of church and state. I
was dismayed, but I figured he was right. I decided to send Razi to
school in his Hebrew aleph bet t-shirt to make a point.
Then one day I dropped Razi off at school and his teacher told me they
were having a visitor in class that day. Naive me, I was thinking it
was going to be a fire fighter in uniform or something like that! :)
Anyway, it was going to be Santa, of course. I said Razi wouldn't have
any idea who Santa was and maybe he should go to someone else's room
while Santa was in his classroom. I left it at that, and I now realize
I didn't even ask her what ended up happening.
Since then he's come home with a few much more generic looking crafts,
a string of "christmas tree lights" (made of paper) and one very Jewish
looking craft - a blue spiral with three yellow mogen david stars
hanging off it. I loved this one and immediately hung it up inside the
minivan. :)
Now he is on winter break and it's no longer an issue. but if he's in
a program like this next year I expect to be a lot more proactive.
We'll see what happens. :)
---
--- Vicki in Columbus, Indiana
Married my dear husband Joshua on May 21, 1995.
Ima shel Raziel Josiah, born 11/16/99 and breastfed for 22 months;
and Ima shel Zipporah Yael, born at home, 05/19/02.
http://www.geocities.com/vyxter/
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral. -Paulo
Freire, educator (1921-1997)
The compensation is excellent. I get paid in spit-up, giggles, hugs
and smiles.
An ounce of mother is worth a pound of clergy. -Spanish proverb
Sue
Christmas parties. They call them winter celebrations. Since the five years
the girls have been going to this particular school, they have taught all
religous aspects during this time of year and really don't spend too much
time on Christmas at all. It really is getting to the point where you have
to be so politically correct that I feel like not talking at all, lol.
Unless your willing to spend oodles of time and energy to try and change the
system, then my advice is just to ignore it and go with it. There are lots
of kids, who during this time of year don't come to school when they know
something that they don't believe in is going on.
--
Sue
mom to three girls
"Circe" <gua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Z5MM9.15707$6k.9...@news1.west.cox.net...
> While we've been having our very interesting discussion about Christmas in
> another thread, I have been puzzling over my son's public school's policy
> with regard to Christmas. To wit, the assumption is that *everyone*
> celebrates it. Yesterday, there was a Christmas program. It started with
the
> band playing a Hannukah song of some sort, but from there on, it was
pretty
> much all Christmas. My son's class sang _We Wish You a Merry Christmas_,
for
> example. Then, today, his class put on a performance of a poem called
> _Christmas Cookies_ for the parents. His teacher even went so far as to
call
> the performance their Christmas gift to us!
>
> The irony here is that *I* celebrate Christmas, despite being
non-Christian,
> yet I can't help feeling vaguely offended by this stuff. I mean, if I were
> an observant Jew, I think I would be really upset to have my child singing
> Christmas songs and reciting Christmas poems in school, even when the
> songs/poems weren't specifically *religious* in nature. And even in the
> absence of these performances, all the little workbooks my son is
> coloring/reading/writing seem to have Christmas-related themes this month
> (it was Thanksgiving last month, of course, and Halloween the month before
> that).
>
> What's everyone else's take on this sort of stuff? I can't really find
much
> to object about in the Thanksgiving stuff, but I can certainly see that
both
> Halloween and Christmas might be the source of some heartburn in some
> households. Are public schools just recognizing the culture in an
acceptable
> way with the stuff, or does it amount to a sort of promotion of the
dominant
> culture that shouldn't be permitted in the interest of diversity? I'm
> interested to hear your opinions.
> --
> Be well, Barbara
> (Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
>
CBI
(http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/holidays/). As you can see,
Christmas was cobbled together from a variety of sources and religions.
People like to imagine that at one time it was all about the Christ child
and that we have gotten away from that tradition but this is not true. In
fact, for much of its recent history the various Christian Churches have
rejected the holiday. I don't think it is correct to think of it as a
Christian holiday, although the Christian Churches have of late tried to
co-opt it, and I do think that the school that says it is ok to celebrate
it as long as they omit references to Jesus is on the right track. The end
to the story below, not given here but elsewhere on the website, is that
Christmas trees were borrowed from German's via England and Santa Claus, as
we now know him, was largely invented by Secular authors (or priests
pretending to be secular) and popularized by department stores.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The middle of winter has long been a time of celebration around the world.
Centuries before the arrival of the man called Jesus, early Europeans
celebrated light and birth in the darkest days of winter. Many peoples
rejoiced during the winter solstice, when the worst of the winter was behind
them and they could look forward to longer days and extended hours of
sunlight. In Scandinavia, the Norse celebrated Yule from December 21, the
winter solstice, through January. In recognition of the return of the sun,
fathers and sons would bring home large logs, which they would set on fire.
The people would feast until the log burned out, which could take as many as
12 days. The Norse believed that each spark from the fire represented a new
pig or calf that would be born during the coming year.
The end of December was a perfect time for celebration in most areas of
Europe. At that time of year, most cattle were slaughtered so they would not
have to be fed during the winter. For many, it was the only time of year
when they had a supply of fresh meat. In addition, most wine and beer made
during the year was finally fermented and ready for drinking. In Germany,
people honored the pagan god Oden during the mid-winter holiday. Germans
were terrified of Oden, as they believed he made nocturnal flights through
the sky to observe his people, and then decide who would prosper or perish.
Because of his presence, many people chose to stay inside.
In Rome, where winters were not as harsh as those in the far north,
Saturnalia-a holiday in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture-was
celebrated. Beginning in the week leading up to the winter solstice and
continuing for a full month, Saturnalia was a hedonistic time, when food and
drink were plentiful and the normal Roman social order was turned upside
down. For a month, slaves would become masters. Peasants were in command of
the city. Business and schools were closed so that everyone could join in
the fun. Also around the time of the winter solstice, Romans observed
Juvenalia, a feast honoring the children of Rome. In addition, members of
the upper classes often celebrated the birthday of Mithra, the god of the
unconquerable sun, on December 25. It was believed that Mithra, an infant
god, was born of a rock. For some Romans, Mithra's birthday was the most
sacred day of the year.
In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth
of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided
to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does
not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order
to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests
that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be
herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is
commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and
absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the
Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by
the end of the sixth century. By the end of the eighth century, the
celebration of Christmas had spread all the way to Scandinavia. Today, in
the Greek and Russian orthodox churches, Christmas is celebrated 13 days
after the 25th, which is also referred to as the Epiphany or Three Kings
Day. This is the day it is believed that the three wise men finally found
Jesus in the manger.
By holding Christmas at the same time as traditional winter solstice
festivals, church leaders increased the chances that Christmas would be
popularly embraced, but gave up the ability to dictate how it was
celebrated. By the Middle Ages, Christianity had, for the most part,
replaced pagan religion. On Christmas, believers attended church, then
celebrated raucously in a drunken, carnival-like atmosphere similar to
today's Mardi Gras. Each year, a beggar or student would be crowned the
"lord of misrule" and eager celebrants played the part of his subjects. The
poor would go to the houses of the rich and demand their best food and
drink. If owners failed to comply, their visitors would most likely
terrorize them with mischief. Christmas became the time of year when the
upper classes could repay their real or imagined "debt" to society by
entertaining less fortunate citizens.
In the early 17th century, a wave of religious reform changed the way
Christmas was celebrated in Europe. When Oliver Cromwell and his Puritan
forces took over England in 1645, they vowed to rid England of decadence
and, as part of their effort, cancelled Christmas. By popular demand,
Charles II was restored to the throne and, with him, came the return of the
popular holiday. The pilgrims, English separatists that came to America in
1620, were even more orthodox in their Puritan beliefs than Cromwell. As a
result, Christmas was not a holiday in early America. From 1659 to 1681, the
celebration of Christmas was actually outlawed in Boston. Anyone exhibiting
the Christmas spirit was fined five shillings. By contrast, in the Jamestown
settlement, Captain John Smith reported that Christmas was enjoyed by all
and passed without incident. After the American Revolution, English customs
fell out of favor, including Christmas. In fact, Congress was in session on
December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new constitution.
Christmas wasn't declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.
It wasn't until the 19th century that Americans began to embrace Christmas.
Americans re-invented Christmas, and changed it from a raucous carnival
holiday into a family-centered day of peace and nostalgia. But what about
the 1800s peaked American interest in the holiday? The early 19th century
was a period of class conflict and turmoil. During this time, unemployment
was high and gang rioting by the disenchanted classes often occurred during
the Christmas season. In 1828, the New York city council instituted the
city's first police force in response to a Christmas riot. This catalyzed
certain members of the upper classes to begin to change the way Christmas
was celebrated in America. In 1819, best-selling author Washington Irving
wrote The Sketchbook of Geoffrey Crayon, gent., a series of stories about
the celebration of Christmas in an English manor house. The sketches feature
a squire who invited the peasants into his home for the holiday. In contrast
to the problems faced in American society, the two groups mingled
effortlessly. In Irving's mind, Christmas should be a peaceful, warm-hearted
holiday bringing groups together across lines of wealth or social status.
Irving's fictitious celebrants enjoyed "ancient customs," including the
crowning of a Lord of Misrule. Irving's book, however, was not based on any
holiday celebration he had attended-in fact, many historians say that
Irving's account actually "invented" tradition by implying that it described
the true customs of the season.
Also around this time, English author Charles Dickens created the classic
holiday tale, A Christmas Carol. The story's message-the importance of
charity and good will towards all humankind-struck a powerful chord in the
United States and England and showed members of Victorian society the
benefits of celebrating the holiday. The family was also becoming less
disciplined and more sensitive to the emotional needs of children during the
early 1800s. Christmas provided families with a day when they could lavish
attention-and gifts-on their children without appearing to "spoil" them. As
Americans began to embrace Christmas as a perfect family holiday, old
customs were unearthed. People looked toward recent immigrants and Catholic
and Episcopalian churches to see how the day should be celebrated. In the
next 100 years, Americans built a Christmas tradition all their own that
included pieces of many other customs, including decorating trees, sending
holiday cards, and gift-giving. Although most families quickly bought into
the idea that they were celebrating Christmas how it had been done for
centuries, Americans had really re-invented a holiday to fill the cultural
needs of a growing nation.
--
CBI
Marion Baumgarten
of the source material might have been from
The Battle for Christmas by Stephen Nissenbaum
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0679740384/cu
stomer-reviews/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-8455178-8695246
which is excellent reading.
Nissenbaum is a history professor and Jewish the book is fascinating.
For a look at the Eatern European Jewish immigration expericne, I would
recommend
World of our Fathers by Irving Howe
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0679740384/cu
stomer-reviews/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/002-8455178-8695246
Marion Baumgaren
Rosenugga
>of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided
>to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does
>not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order
>to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests
>that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be
>herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is
>commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and
>absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival.
Actually there is much evidence to support the fact that he was probably born
in Sept/Oct. Mary and Joseph would have been making a pilgramage to Jerusalem
to celebrate Sukkot. The idea that there was no room at the in and that he was
born in a stable comes from a misinterpretation of the original Hebrew. They
would have been staying in a Sukkah (basically a tent). I don't have the
references at hand but can ask my husband for them if needed.
Rose
Mamma to Caity Feb 13 1999 ( Daddy's best birthday present)
Ericka Kammerer
It bugs me when they do this too. To me, regardless of whether
many of the aspects are secular, some people don't celebrate even
secular Christmas, and some certainly see it as an imposition, and
some who *are* religious see it as inappropriate to secularize
their holiday. I don't think that means you have to pretend
Christmas doesn't exist, but I don't think it should be played
up any more than other religion's festivals *at other times during
the year*. In other words, I don't think you can give a brief
nod to Hannukah, Kwanza, and Ramadan and then revel in Christmas
all you like in the classroom. I think that just reinforces the
notion that other religion's holidays are wannabe-Christmases.
Besides, I think there's plenty to do with the winter theme, so I
don't think they *need* to celebrate all the Christmas-y stuff,
secular or not.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Marion Baumgarten
>
>
> I guess it caught me off guard. One day Razi had all this Christmas
> stuff in his backpack. I mentioned it to my DH, and he said that as
> long as they did wreaths and Santa, not baby Jesus in the manger, it
> wasn't considered a violation of the separation of church and state. I
> was dismayed, but I figured he was right. I decided to send Razi to
> school in his Hebrew aleph bet t-shirt to make a point.
>
Well, I really don't think you can expect the teacher to pick up on the
"point". Sorry, but people don't see Hebrew letters and think "No
Santa". Particularly with so many intermarried families these days.
Heck, she might not have even realized it was Hebrew.
>
Denise Anderson
"Vicki S" <rev...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu> wrote in message
news:211220021317011767%rev...@alumnae.mtholyoke.edu...
we aren't Jewish. We're very Christian. But I was in my oldest daughter's
preschool class the other day and all I saw were Christmas decorations...
wreaths and angels and trees and stuff. Stuff that would be very cute in a
private Christian school, not in a DoD run preschool. So I said, "So when
will they start making Hannukah decorations?" I think it caught the teacher
off guard, but they did start making some. I can teach my children
everything I think they need to know about Christmas, but I'd really like
them to be exposed to more than my views, KWIM? One of my best "holiday"
memories was when I would go to my best friend's house and watch them light
the candles for Hannukah.. I want my children to know stuff like that.
Denise
CBI
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:2mfa0vk56b2t8ooul...@4ax.com...
> On 20 Dec 2002 23:57:01 GMT, gitr...@aol.com (GI Trekker) wrote:
>
> >No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your home.
Please
> >don't try to tell the majority of others what should or should not be
> >acceptable in public society.
>
> into public schools were all children attend. If you wish your
> children to celebrate Christmas in their school, then send them to
> a private Christian school.
>
Why? Its not a Christian Holiday.
It is a holiday that Christians have tried to adopt, but it has never, at
any point in its history, been primarily about religion. If the Vatican
declares your birthday a holy day are you going to stop celebrating it?
--
CBI
CBI
"Rosenugga" <rose...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021221175018...@mb-fe.aol.com...
Yes - the reason that it is celebrated in December is because that is when
people were already celebrating. At the time the church's main holiday was
Easter. They decided they wanted to add a celebration of the birth of
Christ. They wanted it "to stick" and for people to celebrate it (which
would be a tough sell at any other time). In addition, they had always been
opposed to the reverie that was occurring in December (for which the NYC
police force was created to combat and which the Church had for a long time
tried to ban). They couldn't get people to stop so they figured they would
celebrate Christ's birth at that time and try to convince people that is why
they were celebrating (the ultimate in "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em").
Since few really knew why they got drunk and had a riot every December they
didn't notice or object much.
--
CBI
Circe
> "toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> news:2mfa0vk56b2t8ooul...@4ax.com...
>> On 20 Dec 2002 23:57:01 GMT, gitr...@aol.com (GI Trekker) wrote:
>>
>>> No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your
>>> home. Please don't try to tell the majority of others what should
>>> or should not be acceptable in public society.
>>
>> Celebrate anything you wish to in *your* home, but do not place this
>> into public schools were all children attend. If you wish your
>> children to celebrate Christmas in their school, then send them to
>> a private Christian school.
>>
>
> Why? Its not a Christian Holiday.
>
> It is a holiday that Christians have tried to adopt, but it has
> never, at any point in its history, been primarily about religion.
But Christmas is also not a holiday universally recognized and celebrated by
all Americans. It is a festival cobbled out of *European* traditions, and
most of those traditions have religious roots. It does NOT have a
*singularly* secular, American meaning (like Thanksgiving, Independence Day,
Labor Day, etc.).
Given that Americans are not ALL of European origin (and are becoming less
dominantly European every day), the emphasis on Christmas, even as a secular
holiday, seems to me at best a textbook example of the dominant culture's
insensitivity to minority cultures. At worst, it exerts subtle pressure on
people for whom Christmas is not part of their traditions to
celebrate/recognize a holiday that is not their own. And I can't find myself
comfortable with public, government-sponsored institutions doing either of
those things.
Circe
> Circe wrote:
> It bugs me when they do this too. To me, regardless of whether
> many of the aspects are secular, some people don't celebrate even
> secular Christmas, and some certainly see it as an imposition, and
> some who *are* religious see it as inappropriate to secularize
> their holiday.
Yes, yes, yes! Thanks, Ericka. That's exactly the reason I'm uncomfortable.
I don't think that means you have to pretend
> Christmas doesn't exist, but I don't think it should be played
> up any more than other religion's festivals *at other times during
> the year*. In other words, I don't think you can give a brief
> nod to Hannukah, Kwanza, and Ramadan and then revel in Christmas
> all you like in the classroom. I think that just reinforces the
> notion that other religion's holidays are wannabe-Christmases.
> Besides, I think there's plenty to do with the winter theme, so I
> don't think they *need* to celebrate all the Christmas-y stuff,
> secular or not.
>
I agree.
I guess the question is, what should I do about this? Is it worth raising a
stink about it?
just me
"CBI" <00...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:au4ip0$33b$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
> Since few really knew why they got drunk and had a riot every December
they
> didn't notice or object much.
>
and thus it continues.
-Aula
Cheryl S.
> I guess the question is, what should I do about this? Is it worth
raising a
> stink about it?
Not a big stink, but at least a well-placed question or two about why
they put so much emphasis on Christmas, IMO. Just enough to get them to
hopefully give it a little more thought next year.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 21 months
Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.
Joni Rathbun
On Sun, 22 Dec 2002, Cheryl S. wrote:
>
> Circe <gua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:OalN9.36311$6k.18...@news1.west.cox.net...
> > I guess the question is, what should I do about this? Is it worth
> raising a
> > stink about it?
>
> Not a big stink, but at least a well-placed question or two about why
> they put so much emphasis on Christmas, IMO. Just enough to get them to
> hopefully give it a little more thought next year.
About five years ago, one of the kindergarten teachers at my school
dressed her little ones up in paper buckskins, feathers, and red paint
(with white streaks on the cheeks) and paraded them around school
chanting and saying "How!" over and over again. When they paraded
by me, I said, "Oh, how cute. Are you going to do something similar
for Black History Month?"
She looked at me and said, "Huh?" and then, "Oh...."
Byron Canfield
> people were already celebrating. At the time the church's main holiday was
> Easter. They decided they wanted to add a celebration of the birth of
> Christ. They wanted it "to stick" and for people to celebrate it (which
> would be a tough sell at any other time). In addition, they had always
been
> opposed to the reverie that was occurring in December (for which the NYC
> police force was created to combat and which the Church had for a long
time
> tried to ban). They couldn't get people to stop so they figured they would
> celebrate Christ's birth at that time and try to convince people that is
why
> they were celebrating (the ultimate in "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em").
> Since few really knew why they got drunk and had a riot every December
they
> didn't notice or object much.
The very same has happened in Mexico with the "Day of the Dead" -- despite
all their efforts, the tradition could not be obliterated by the church, so
it was co-opted as a sanctioned Christian celebration.
--
Byron "Barn" Canfield
http://www.headsprout.com
Flash examples: http://www.canfieldstudios.com/flash5
[I do not respond to private emails regarding issues for which the
appropriate venue is this newsgroup, nor do I reply to posts by email.]
Ericka Kammerer
> I guess the question is, what should I do about this? Is it worth raising a
> stink about it?
I probably wouldn't raise a stink, but I would say something
to the administration to register your preferences. They're very
unlikely to change if they don't hear people's opinions, and they
probably hear plenty of opinions that they're not doing *enough*
Christmas.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Beth Clarkson
> While we've been having our very interesting discussion about Christmas in
> another thread, I have been puzzling over my son's public school's policy
> with regard to Christmas. To wit, the assumption is that *everyone*
> celebrates it. Yesterday, there was a Christmas program. It started with the
> band playing a Hannukah song of some sort, but from there on, it was pretty
> much all Christmas. My son's class sang _We Wish You a Merry Christmas_, for
> example. Then, today, his class put on a performance of a poem called
> _Christmas Cookies_ for the parents. His teacher even went so far as to call
> the performance their Christmas gift to us!
>
> The irony here is that *I* celebrate Christmas, despite being non-Christian,
> yet I can't help feeling vaguely offended by this stuff. I mean, if I were
> an observant Jew, I think I would be really upset to have my child singing
> Christmas songs and reciting Christmas poems in school, even when the
> songs/poems weren't specifically *religious* in nature. And even in the
> absence of these performances, all the little workbooks my son is
> coloring/reading/writing seem to have Christmas-related themes this month
> (it was Thanksgiving last month, of course, and Halloween the month before
> that).
>
> What's everyone else's take on this sort of stuff? I can't really find much
> Halloween and Christmas might be the source of some heartburn in some
> households. Are public schools just recognizing the culture in an acceptable
> way with the stuff, or does it amount to a sort of promotion of the dominant
> culture that shouldn't be permitted in the interest of diversity? I'm
> interested to hear your opinions.
Excuse me, but you're talking about forcing more restrictions on what
can be said/done in public schools in the name of 'diversity'? That
seems completely absurd to me. If you want to promote diversity, then
start by practicing it and promoting more freedom to talk and sing
about all religions - including Christianity - rather than suggesting
further restrictions on what songs, etc. are acceptable on the dubious
hypothesis that someone somewhere might find them offensive or
uncomfortable. Political correctness has already run amok in our
society. Tolerating diversity is a lovely concept, but in practice it
seems to me more about intolerance of things that used to be perfectly
acceptable rather than tolerance of new/different ways of doing
things.
Even if you're not personally satisfied with how far we've come in a
single generation in regards to tolerance and respect for other
religions, I think it's important to acknowledge where we've been and
recognize that our society has made some impressive strides in that
direction in a relatively short period of time. Surely you've seen
that old Charlie Brown Christmas special - the one where the school
kids put on the nativity play? Public schools across America used to
put on such plays. I remember my older brother getting to play one of
the three wise men in second or third grade - put on for the parents
and other children at a public school during school hours.
My opinion is that we've gotten too restrictive in what people are
allowed to say and do in public, particular if it can be interpreted
as being 'sponsed by the government' in some way. I certainly don't
sanction going any farther in that particular direction. Minorities
need to be tolerant of the majority just as much as the other way
round. Personally, I'm far happier to see the inclusion of Hannakah
songs with the traditional Christmas celebrations (there were none
when I was in school) than I am to see the old religious songs nixed
and only secular songs allowed. Why is okay to sing a Hannakuh song
but not "Silent Night"?
Beth Clarkson
Laurie
Circe wrote in message ...
>
>What's everyone else's take on this sort of stuff? I can't really find much
>to object about in the Thanksgiving stuff, but I can certainly see that
both
>Halloween and Christmas might be the source of some heartburn in some
>households. Are public schools just recognizing the culture in an
acceptable
>way with the stuff, or does it amount to a sort of promotion of the
dominant
>culture that shouldn't be permitted in the interest of diversity? I'm
>interested to hear your opinions.
>Be well, Barbara
>(Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
While I can certainly see your point, I think it's probably pretty typical.
I have no memory of ever learning about Hannukah in school, or celebrating
it's holiday. While definitely not right, I think it's probably very common.
laurie
mommy to Jessica, 21 months &
baby boy due April 10, 2003
CBI
"Circe" <gua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:TXkN9.36306$6k.18...@news1.west.cox.net...
> CBI wrote:
> > "toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> > news:2mfa0vk56b2t8ooul...@4ax.com...
> >> On 20 Dec 2002 23:57:01 GMT, gitr...@aol.com (GI Trekker) wrote:
> >>
> >>> No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your
> >>> home. Please don't try to tell the majority of others what should
> >>> or should not be acceptable in public society.
> >>
> >> Celebrate anything you wish to in *your* home, but do not place this
> >> into public schools were all children attend. If you wish your
> >> children to celebrate Christmas in their school, then send them to
> >> a private Christian school.
> >>
> >
> > Why? Its not a Christian Holiday.
> >
> > It is a holiday that Christians have tried to adopt, but it has
> > never, at any point in its history, been primarily about religion.
>
> But Christmas is also not a holiday universally recognized and celebrated
by
> all Americans. It is a festival cobbled out of *European* traditions, and
> most of those traditions have religious roots. It does NOT have a
> *singularly* secular, American meaning (like Thanksgiving, Independence
Day,
> Labor Day, etc.).
>
Actually it started with pagan festivals. The Christians denounced it until
the mid - 1800's. The non-Christian Americans stopped celebrating it
relatively recently only after an effective propaganda campain by the
Christians.
> Given that Americans are not ALL of European origin (and are becoming less
> dominantly European every day), the emphasis on Christmas, even as a
secular
> holiday, seems to me at best a textbook example of the dominant culture's
> insensitivity to minority cultures.
Really, as it is celebrated now, it is a distinctly American holiday.
Imigrants brought in different eleents but as of the early 20th century no
one was celebrating the holiday we now celebrate. Those Europeans that do
have exported it back to Europe from America.
> At worst, it exerts subtle pressure on
> people for whom Christmas is not part of their traditions to
> celebrate/recognize a holiday that is not their own. And I can't find
myself
> comfortable with public, government-sponsored institutions doing either of
> those things.
There is no real reason for you to be less comfortable with it than with
thanksgiving or the fourth of July. If you are not it is becuase you are
buying into the Christian propaganda rather than the true history.
--
CBI
CBI
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> should celebrate it in school.
>
> It is not a Hindu holiday and I see no reason why Hindus should
> celebrate it in school.
>
> It is not a Muslim holiday and I see no reason why Muslim children
> should celebrate it in school.
>
You are not listening. If it was just me and you were refuting the facts
then I could see your argument. Several people have told you, and listed
credible sources supporting them, that this holiday is not Christian. It
does not have its roots in Christianity or any other major organized
religion. Christians rejected it, and actively fought it, until they gave
up and decided to join the party within the last 150 yrs or so.
As it is celebrated in the US now it is a uniquely American holiday. Englad
probably has a claim to helping but most of the major elements were invented
and/or popularised in the US. If you celebrate thanksgiving and July 4th
there is not reason not to celebrate Christmas. Call it the winter festival
if you like. There is no Christmas tree in the Bible and no reason for a Jew
(or Muslim or Hindu) not to have one.
--
CBI
CBI
"Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3E04F60...@comcast.net...
> and
> some who *are* religious see it as inappropriate to secularize
> their holiday.
> Sigh> But it never was their holiday.
> I don't think that means you have to pretend
> Christmas doesn't exist, but I don't think it should be played
> up any more than other religion's festivals *at other times during
> the year*.
But it is not a religious festival. The appropriate comparison would be to
say it shouldn't be played up more than July 4th, Thanksgiving, or New Years
Eve.
> In other words, I don't think you can give a brief
> nod to Hannukah, Kwanza, and Ramadan and then revel in Christmas
> all you like in the classroom.
But THOSE are religious or cultural holidays. If you celebrate them isn
school one might have a legitimate gripe about foisting other cultures upon
their kids (although, personally I would be all for it). It is perfectly
fair to celebrate American culture in an American school.
> I think that just reinforces the
> notion that other religion's holidays are wannabe-Christmases.
No - they are wannabe Easters, Ramadans, Hannukahs, and Kwanzas. July fourth
is a wannabe Christmas.
> Besides, I think there's plenty to do with the winter theme, so I
> don't think they *need* to celebrate all the Christmas-y stuff,
> secular or not.
Fine go back to the true roots of the holiday. Spend most of December drunk,
rioting, and terrorizing the rich.
--
CBI
CBI
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
>
> When will we celebrate Bodhi Day (December 6th) or
Funny you should mention December 6th. THAT is the Christian holiday where
the celebrate St. Nicolas (in most European countries - Dec 19th in a few) -
not December 25th.
> Diwali
> (Hindu New Year and festival of lights held in November)
We have several Indian Friends and do celebrate Diwali with them. I wouldn't
mind at all if it was discussed in school.
> or
> Hari raya Aidilfitrim, the joyous Muslim festival that comes after
> the month of fasting of Ramadan?
Why is the sentiment that we should;t celebrate Christmas rather than we
should celebrate all these. Seems to me that would make much more sense.
--
CBI
P. Tierney
>
> Several people have told you, and listed
> credible sources supporting them, that this holiday is not Christian.
Had I said such a comment in my religious school, I would've
been sent to detention until I had recanted.
> If you celebrate thanksgiving and July 4th
> there is not reason not to celebrate Christmas.
OTOH, religions have not attempted to claim those holidays.
P. Tierney
Maryilee
>allowed to say and do in public, particular if it can be interpreted
>as being 'sponsed by the government' in some way. I certainly don't
>sanction going any farther in that particular direction. Minorities
>need to be tolerant of the majority just as much as the other way
>round. Personally, I'm far happier to see the inclusion of Hannakah
>songs with the traditional Christmas celebrations (there were none
>when I was in school) than I am to see the old religious songs nixed
>and only secular songs allowed. Why is okay to sing a Hannakuh song
>but not "Silent Night"?
>
>Beth Clarkson
>
>
>
>
My son sings in one of the choirs at his high school. We recently attended
their winter concert. I was happily surprised to hear many of my favorite
Christmas songs sung. They started the concert with O Emmanuel (sp?) and ended
with Silent Night. They even sang a Jamacian song about Baby Jesus.
Of course, my son's school is probably 97% Christian. But a few years ago when
he was in grade school they were only allowed to sing the secular holiday
songs. Halloween parties had also been replaced by Fall Festivals which
consisted, basically, of each kid getting a handful of popcorn and an apple.
Like others have said, this IS a Democratic nation. If the minority is
offended, maybe they can work to become the majority and change things. Until
then, the wishes of the majority should be respected.
Maryilee
Maggie's Christmas page
http://www.angelfire.com/vi/maggie/christmaspictures.html
Info on hereditary spherocytosis
http://www.angelfire.com/vi/maggie/spherocytosis.html
Joni Rathbun
On 23 Dec 2002, Maryilee wrote:
> >My opinion is that we've gotten too restrictive in what people are
> >allowed to say and do in public, particular if it can be interpreted
> >as being 'sponsed by the government' in some way. I certainly don't
> >sanction going any farther in that particular direction. Minorities
> >need to be tolerant of the majority just as much as the other way
> >round. Personally, I'm far happier to see the inclusion of Hannakah
> >songs with the traditional Christmas celebrations (there were none
> >when I was in school) than I am to see the old religious songs nixed
> >and only secular songs allowed. Why is okay to sing a Hannakuh song
> >but not "Silent Night"?
> >
> >Beth Clarkson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Those are my thoughts exactly. Thanks so putting it so clearly.
>
> My son sings in one of the choirs at his high school. We recently attended
> their winter concert. I was happily surprised to hear many of my favorite
> Christmas songs sung. They started the concert with O Emmanuel (sp?) and ended
> with Silent Night. They even sang a Jamacian song about Baby Jesus.
>
> Of course, my son's school is probably 97% Christian. But a few years ago when
> he was in grade school they were only allowed to sing the secular holiday
> songs. Halloween parties had also been replaced by Fall Festivals which
> consisted, basically, of each kid getting a handful of popcorn and an apple.
>
> Like others have said, this IS a Democratic nation. If the minority is
> offended, maybe they can work to become the majority and change things.
I don't necessarily disagree with your viewpoint on the subject; pc can
be taken too far. But do note, our constitution was designed to protect
the minority from the majority precisely so one did NOT have to become
the majority in order have a voice. The US is a democratic republic, not a
strict democracy.
Until
> then, the wishes of the majority should be respected.
When we become a country that bows stictly to the will of the majority, we
will cease to be the United States of America our founding father's
worked so hard to create. And that will be a sad day indeed.
Maryilee
>be taken too far. But do note, our constitution was designed to protect
>the minority from the majority precisely so one did NOT have to become
>the majority in order have a voice. The US is a democratic republic, not a
>strict democracy.
>
>
> Until
>> then, the wishes of the majority should be respected.
>
>When we become a country that bows stictly to the will of the majority, we
>will cease to be the United States of America our founding father's
>worked so hard to create. And that will be a sad day indeed.
>
>
>
>
If the majority were restricting the rights of the minority, I'd agree with
you. That's not the case, as far as I can tell. Nobody is telling
non-Christians that they can't celebrate their religious or cultural holidays.
But why should the minority dictate what the majority can and can not
celebrate?
I know that there are public schools in largely Jewish neighborhoods where
Christmas isn't really recognized. That's fine, because for that school, the
majority is voicing their opinion.
Beth Kevles
This IS a democractic nation, but we ALSO went to great lengths, at the
time of our formation, to respect the rights of the minority. Which is
why we don't run roughshod over people's religious beliefs, why religion
is kept out of public schools *even though* only one child in the class
isn't of the majority religion, and so forth.
Christmas is certainly a religious holiday. (You can call it pagan if
you wish, although most people think of it as Christian.) And that
means that one of MY civil rights is to NOT have my children convinced
that it's important to celebrate Christmas. When you play up Christmas
in the schools, without giving equal time to other groups' holy days,
then you really are, in effect, proseletyzing to my children.
My two cents,
--Beth Kevles
bethk...@aol.com
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.
P. Tierney
>
> If the majority were restricting the rights of the minority, I'd agree
with
> you. That's not the case, as far as I can tell. Nobody is telling
> non-Christians that they can't celebrate their religious or cultural
holidays.
If schools are letting their activities being led by the religion
of whoever is in the majority, then they most certainly are saying
that their holidays can't be celebrated *in school*.
> But why should the minority dictate what the majority can and can not
> celebrate?
They can't. The point is, the majority can't dictate either when it
comes to matters of religion.
> I know that there are public schools in largely Jewish neighborhoods where
> Christmas isn't really recognized. That's fine, because for that school,
the
> majority is voicing their opinion.
If the school is disallowing the celebration of Christmas, instead
allowing only Jewish holidays, then they are "restricting the rights of
the minority" and telling others "they can't celebrate their religious
holidays."
You seem to be taking the stand that if the minority isn't allowed
to celebrate their holidays in school, then that's just the tough luck of
being in the minority, and they can celebrate elsewhere. But if the
majority isn't allowed, then their rights are being violated and they
are telling the minority "what they can and can't celebrate". There
is a clear contradiction.
P. Tierney
D. C. Sessions
> There is no real reason for you to be less comfortable with it than with
> thanksgiving or the fourth of July. If you are not it is becuase you are
> buying into the Christian propaganda rather than the true history.
When Congress changes the legal holiday to the fourth Monday
in December, you'll have convinced us.
--
begin signature.vbs
| In the course of every project there comes a time |
| when the best debugger is a can of gasoline. |
JennP
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
news:ncgc0vo52n070kfme...@4ax.com...
> The schools should be teaching academics, not celebrating holidays
> regardless of their origins, imo.
IMO, too. Kids are so inundated with it outside of school, I think they know
what's going on and they don't need more of it in school. IME, December was
a very difficult month to teach because the students were so distracted
anyway. I didn't need more of a distraction in the classroom. JMO.
JennP.
Beth Kevles
---------------
If the majority were restricting the rights of the minority, I'd agree
with you. That's not the case, as far as I can tell. Nobody is telling
non-Christians that they can't celebrate their religious or cultural
holidays. But why should the minority dictate what the majority can and
can not celebrate?
Think of it this way. You're a Christian family in an all Jewish
neighborhood. The teachers, the principal, the custodial staff,
etc. are all Jewish. So when Passover rolls around in the spring, the
school cafeteria starts to serve matzoh instead of bread, there's a big
concert with lots of super Passover music, not all of which is strictly
religious in theme. There's a party in the classroom, and most of the
kids dress up as Moses or Miriam, although some elect to come as Batman
instead. The principal dresses up, too. At the class party they serve
special foods, cupcakes made of matzoh meal instead of flour, matzoh
with haroset (kind of like applesauce with nuts), and there's a big food
drive because at this time of year we want to be sure that no one goes
hungry.
At the school concert with all the great Passover music, they also sing
"Here Comes Peter Cottontail" and a song you've never heard, about
Easter, from Bulgaria. And you come in to explain what Easter is, of
course.
Class art projects include decorative matzah covers for people's
Passover tables. If you're not Jewish you can make a decorative bread
cover, but everyone knows that the matzah cover is the real project.
By the end of the school year, your kindergartener is asking why your
family can't celebrate Passover, and Purim, and all those great Jewish
holidays. He's kind of embarrassed to be celebrating Christmas,
although at Easter he thinks the egg hunt is kind of okay. By the end
of 5th grade he's seriously rebelling about going to church on Sundays.
Now, this scenario won't happen in the United States, at least not in
the foreseeable future. But this kind of scenario is why we in the
minority really wish that you in the majority would soft-pedal your
religious expression in the public schools. You can do what you want in
your home, in your church, in your private schools, on your front lawn,
and so forth, but not in the only schools our children can (often)
attend! If we're not equipped to homeschool, can't afford or can't get
into private school, then our kids *must* attend public schools. And we
don't want them to undervalue their family's religion as a result.
This is why I believe that religion should be pretty completely kept out
of public schools. And when it appears, it should be in the context of
understanding ALL the various religions and cultures that make up our
country.
Just my two cents,
Joni Rathbun
On 23 Dec 2002, Maryilee wrote:
> >I don't necessarily disagree with your viewpoint on the subject; pc can
> >be taken too far. But do note, our constitution was designed to protect
> >the minority from the majority precisely so one did NOT have to become
> >the majority in order have a voice. The US is a democratic republic, not a
> >strict democracy.
> >
> >
> > Until
> >> then, the wishes of the majority should be respected.
> >
> >When we become a country that bows stictly to the will of the majority, we
> >will cease to be the United States of America our founding father's
> >worked so hard to create. And that will be a sad day indeed.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> If the majority were restricting the rights of the minority, I'd agree with
> you. That's not the case, as far as I can tell. Nobody is telling
> non-Christians that they can't celebrate their religious or cultural holidays.
> But why should the minority dictate what the majority can and can not
> celebrate?
This discussion is about what's going on inside our public schools.
If the school goes whole hog over Christmas it is promoting a Christian
holiday and coercing those who are not Christian to have to live
with it.
IT should be enough that we are free to celebrate and worship as we
please within our homes and the community and our churches. Why
do we insist on doing it in school too?
>
> I know that there are public schools in largely Jewish neighborhoods where
> Christmas isn't really recognized. That's fine, because for that school, the
> majority is voicing their opinion.
>
That may not be fine with the Christians in attendance.
There was a time in Little Rock, Arkansas when, had the majority's voice
been the only voice honored, desegregation would not have occurred. And
a few short years later, Ruby Bridges would not have made that long
walk from the street to the school house doors....
If the majority voice was the only voice honored, the schools in
my community would begin each day with a set of Mormon prayers.
Ericka Kammerer
> Actually it started with pagan festivals. The Christians denounced it until
> the mid - 1800's.
Not all Christians. Many were happily celebrating Christmas
for centuries prior to that time.
> There is no real reason for you to be less comfortable with it than with
> thanksgiving or the fourth of July. If you are not it is becuase you are
> buying into the Christian propaganda rather than the true history.
This is the attitude that I find problematic. First of
all, the "true" history admits many other interpretations and
experiences. Second, regardless of what happened in the more
distant past, when people are actively trying to use Christmas
as Christian propaganda, there is no reason whatsoever that
non-Christians should ignore that intention and happily
acquiesce. I simply don't get the once-pagan-always-pagan
argument.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> As it is celebrated in the US now it is a uniquely American holiday. Englad
> probably has a claim to helping but most of the major elements were invented
> and/or popularised in the US. If you celebrate thanksgiving and July 4th
> there is not reason not to celebrate Christmas. Call it the winter festival
> if you like. There is no Christmas tree in the Bible and no reason for a Jew
> (or Muslim or Hindu) not to have one.
Muslims officially disagree, as do most Jewish leaders.
I'm not sure about the official Hindu position.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> Why is the sentiment that we should;t celebrate Christmas rather than we
> should celebrate all these. Seems to me that would make much more sense.
Because the decisions about which holy days belonging
to which religions in which manner should be left to individual
families to decide. I have no objection to schools teaching
*about* other religions (in fact, I think that's a good thing),
but I don't think that public schools should be *celebrating*
any religious holidays. No matter what they do, they can't
win. However many they celebrate, there are others that will
be ignored. No matter how they celebrate them, some will
think it's too religious and others will think they're not
religious enough. I think families should decide what, when,
how, and if they celebrate religious holidays. If the school
wants to provide some education in comparitive religions or
cultures, I have no problem with that. Mostly what I don't
like, however, is that schools *DON'T* celebrate a wide
diversity of religious holidays. If they did that, they'd
be looking at what each religion defined to be its important
holidays rather than just latching onto whatever holiday
was closest to Christmas so that they could get away with
celebrating Christmas while claiming to somehow be fair to
all religions. Doing so devalues the other religions and is
disrespectful.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> If the majority were restricting the rights of the minority, I'd agree with
> you. That's not the case, as far as I can tell. Nobody is telling
> non-Christians that they can't celebrate their religious or cultural holidays.
> But why should the minority dictate what the majority can and can not
> celebrate?
No one is saying that the majority can't celebrate what it
wants. The problem is that when you have a public school in
which there are students from other religions, some of which
*forbid* their members from celebrating Christmas, you put
those children in an untenable position by asking them to
celebrate Christmas. The majority can celebrate Christmas
to their heart's content at home, in church, in various
community activities, and so forth. What need is there to
celebrate it in school as well, especially when it comes at
a price for other students who have every bit as much of a
right to be there?
Best wishes,
Ericka
CBI
DC said:
> > There is no real reason for you to be less comfortable with it than with
> > buying into the Christian propaganda rather than the true history.
> When Congress changes the legal holiday to the fourth Monday
> in December, you'll have convinced us.
Why? Is there some rule where secular holidays are always on the same day
and religious ones are on the same date? Or is it the Monday thing (I agree
that would be the day they would pick - look at "Presiden't day").
July 4th, New Year's day, and Easter (and Good Friday) come immediately to
mind as notable exceptions.
--
CBI
CBI
"Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3E068601...@comcast.net...
>
> This is the attitude that I find problematic. First of
> all, the "true" history admits many other interpretations and
> experiences. Second, regardless of what happened in the more
> distant past, when people are actively trying to use Christmas
> as Christian propaganda, there is no reason whatsoever that
> non-Christians should ignore that intention and happily
> acquiesce. I simply don't get the once-pagan-always-pagan
> argument.
Listen carefully to the contrary argument and tell me if it makes sense.
What you are basically saying is that there is this winter festival that has
been celebrated for a few millennia by people of many nations and many
faiths. A few here and there attached some religious significance to it, but
for the most part when it was referenced by religious groups it was
denounced. The central character is a mythological man who was combined from
a Nordic figure and the non-religious deeds of a Catholic Saint (gifts to
kids) and invented in a poem, by an American author, that was not known to
have any religious connection until after it was popular and the priest who
wrote it (and hid the fact due it's lack of piety) came forward and claimed
the work. The visual representation of this central figure was invented by
an American illustrator for Harper's magazine and he was first made popular
by American department stores as a marketing gimmick. The central custom of
opening presents around a tree is borrowed from Germany, again with no
religious significance.
Now comes the part that is hard to swallow. The Christians decide to create
a new holiday and celebrate it on the same day. Because of this - the fact
that Christians are celebrating at the same time - you are saying you don't
want to also celebrate at the same time. It is reminiscent of the kid who
takes his ball and goes home because he doesn't get to pitch. Not only are
you taking your ball and stomping off for home - you are trying to convince
everyone else that they should too.
I can see arguments against celebrating Christmas (that it is mostly a
marketing ploy, that it has pagan roots, that it traditionally involves
rioting/drunkenness/looting, etc). I think by far the worst is to say that
you don't want to celebrate because that also happens to be the day the
Christians decided that they would.
--
CBI
CBI
The old appeal to authority - nice.
Can you tell us why they disagree and to exactly what the disagree?
--
CBI
CBI
"Joni Rathbun" <jrat...@orednet.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.02122...@lab.oregonvos.net...
> >
> > Like others have said, this IS a Democratic nation. If the minority is
> > offended, maybe they can work to become the majority and change things.
>
> I don't necessarily disagree with your viewpoint on the subject; pc can
> be taken too far. But do note, our constitution was designed to protect
> the minority from the majority precisely so one did NOT have to become
> the majority in order have a voice. The US is a democratic republic, not a
> strict democracy.
>
>
> Until
> > then, the wishes of the majority should be respected.
>
> When we become a country that bows stictly to the will of the majority, we
> will cease to be the United States of America our founding father's
> worked so hard to create. And that will be a sad day indeed.
...and be careful of what you wish for. It looks like by the middle of this
century the current majority will no longer enjoy that status.
--
CBI
CBI
> CBI wrote:
>
>
> > Why is the sentiment that we should;t celebrate Christmas rather than we
> > should celebrate all these. Seems to me that would make much more sense.
>
>
> Because the decisions about which holy days belonging
> to which religions in which manner should be left to individual
> families to decide. I have no objection to schools teaching
> *about* other religions (in fact, I think that's a good thing),
> but I don't think that public schools should be *celebrating*
> any religious holidays.
I agree. They should stop celebrating Easter and Halloween.
--
CBI
CBI
> Maryilee wrote:
>
>
> > If the majority were restricting the rights of the minority, I'd agree
with
> > you. That's not the case, as far as I can tell. Nobody is telling
> > non-Christians that they can't celebrate their religious or cultural
holidays.
> > But why should the minority dictate what the majority can and can not
> > celebrate?
>
>
> No one is saying that the majority can't celebrate what it
> wants. The problem is that when you have a public school in
> which there are students from other religions, some of which
> *forbid* their members from celebrating Christmas, you put
> those children in an untenable position by asking them to
> celebrate Christmas.
I think you are overstaing things. First of all I don't think many official
church doctrines "forbid" celebrating Chritmas. They just don't celbrate it.
It is kind of like the way Christians don't celebrate Ramadan (or
Thanksgiving) .
Second of all - I hardly think that cutting out and coloring pictures of
Santa and Rudolf constitutes a religious violation (except maybe for
Christians who are not supposed to worship false Gods/craven images). When
the public school makes some Jewsh kid play a wise man (also not well
grounded in the Bible BTW) I'll be right with you in outrage. I would also
agree that making all the kids sing songs that mention Jesus/God/etc is
wrong but more for its insensitivity than for the forced practice of the
religion.
If you want to argue that it is a waste of time and has no place in the
classroom then, fine, I think I agree. If you want to argue that doing
"Christmas" activities that mention elements of Christian religion is
insensitive I would also agree as long as they weren't also making
representations from other faiths. But to claim that the presence of a
Christmas tree and pictures of Santa is a violation of someone else's
religion is a bit far fetched.
> The majority can celebrate Christmas
> to their heart's content at home, in church, in various
> community activities, and so forth. What need is there to
> celebrate it in school as well, especially when it comes at
> a price for other students who have every bit as much of a
> right to be there?
I'm not sure there is any need. I'm also not sure it is coming at anyone's
expense (except maybe all the students who are not studying what they should
be during that time).
--
CBI
Leah Adezio
The simple fact that it's *called* a *Christmas* tree was enough for us not
to have one growing up.
The only reason we have one now is that I'm in an interfaith marriage and it
was the *one* thing my husband asked if he could still have.
Personally, I think those who say 'it's a secular holiday' and 'it's not
Christian, it's roots are in paganism' are simply trying to rationalize an
outdated and inappropriate status quo.
Those who say 'well, if you don't do Christmas, your kids don't have to
participate in school Christmas activities' are (hopefully) unintentionally
fostering a sense of creating outsiders out of those children and have
absolutely no clue as to what it's like to have to remove oneself (or be
removed) from activities at school that most of the other kids are enjoying.
Just because Christmas has become such a pervasive part of American culture
and has become a reason for overindulgance in spending happily encouraged by
business doesn't make it any less what it is: A holiday that has its roots
in Christian belief and Christian observance (no matter how many of its
trappings were co-opted by early Christians from other sources to make
Christianity more palpatable to the locals they were trying to convert).
Why else would those Christians who are concerned with the
over-commercialization of the holiday encourage people to 'remember the
reason for the season' and 'put the Christ back in Christmas'?
Christmas a *secular* holiday? You've *got* to be kidding.
Leah
surprised that this topic didn't rear its ugly head until the last few days
before Christmas...other years it's started much earlier. :)
Leah Adezio
CBI <00...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:au624v$26k$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
Because a Sedar plate isn't an Easter dish. Because a Shofar isn't a
Christmas trumpet. Because a Nativity scene isn't a group of Muslims
bringing 'welcome baby' gifts. Because Buddah isn't wearing a red suit with
white fuzzy trim.
Because it's not *our* holiday -- and it's not called a *Chanukah* tree or a
*Ramadan* tree.
Do you really believe what you're saying or are you just being deliberately
difficult? I just don't see why this isn't *obvious*.
Leah
CBI
"Leah Adezio" <slad...@nac.net> wrote in message
news:3e069...@nntp2.nac.net...
>
> Just because Christmas has become such a pervasive part of American
culture
> and has become a reason for overindulgance in spending happily encouraged
by
> business doesn't make it any less what it is: A holiday that has its
roots
> in Christian belief and Christian observance (no matter how many of its
> trappings were co-opted by early Christians from other sources to make
> Christianity more palpatable to the locals they were trying to convert).
Huh? Has its roots in Christian belief? Now you've got to be kidding! If you
do any reading outside of a (Christian) church flier or Hallmark store it is
impossible not to conclude that the roots are not based in Chritstian
belief. You are just believing the subsequent propaganda and using it to
perpetuate this divisive Christian vs. Jew attitude.
> Why else would those Christians who are concerned with the
> over-commercialization of the holiday encourage people to 'remember the
> reason for the season' and 'put the Christ back in Christmas'?
>
Because they get their information from the Church, the TV, and a school
system that does a better job of teaching popular culture than history.
> Christmas a *secular* holiday? You've *got* to be kidding.
>
Christmas has Christian roots? I can't believe you could be so misled.
--
CBI
Leah Adezio
The central character is a mythological man who was combined from
> a Nordic figure and the non-religious deeds of a Catholic Saint (gifts to
> kids) and invented in a poem, by an American author, that was not known to
> have any religious connection until after it was popular and the priest
who
> wrote it (and hid the fact due it's lack of piety) came forward and
claimed
> the work.
Funny, *I* thought the central 'character' of Christmas is a newborn baby
who was born in a manger to a women who did not conceive this child through
'normal' means who was decreed to be the Son of God.
Just because *you've* apparently forgotten 'the reason for the season'
doesn't mean the *original -- and supposedly still current* reason no longer
exists.
Because last time I looked, my Christian friends and neighbors don't go to
church on Christmas day or Christmas eve to worship and sing about *Santa
Claus*.
"...for unto you is born this day, in the City of David, a Savior, which
is............a fat guy in a red suit"? Wha---?
It doesn't even sing that way in The Messiah.
Leah
Joni Rathbun
That's a majority of a different type. The Hispanic population is largely
Christian; therefore, a majority would still favor Christmas celebrations
of one kind or another. IOW - irrelevant.
Meanwhile, you say that as if it is a bad thing.
And yes, I believe some people are frightened of the changes taking place.
Some will be prepared. Some will not.
Leah Adezio
Some schools already do. More should follow suit.
Leah
P. Tierney
"Leah Adezio" <slad...@nac.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > Because the decisions about which holy days belonging
> > > to which religions in which manner should be left to individual
> > > families to decide. I have no objection to schools teaching
> > > *about* other religions (in fact, I think that's a good thing),
> > > but I don't think that public schools should be *celebrating*
> > > any religious holidays.
> >
> > I agree. They should stop celebrating Easter and Halloween.
>
> Some schools already do. More should follow suit.
I didn't think that either are celebrated here in any way.
In the schools, I mean. The former was never recognized,
and while the latter was once recognized, schools just don't
seem to have the time for things like that anymore.
P. Tierney
CBI
"Leah Adezio" <slad...@nac.net> wrote in message
news:3e069...@nntp2.nac.net...
>
> CBI <00...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:au622u$a80$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> The central character is a mythological man who was combined from
> > a Nordic figure and the non-religious deeds of a Catholic Saint (gifts
to
> > kids) and invented in a poem, by an American author, that was not known
to
> > have any religious connection until after it was popular and the priest
> who
> > wrote it (and hid the fact due it's lack of piety) came forward and
> claimed
> > the work.
>
> Funny, *I* thought the central 'character' of Christmas is a newborn baby
> who was born in a manger to a women who did not conceive this child
through
> 'normal' means who was decreed to be the Son of God.
>
That has only bee suggested in the last century or to about a holiday that
has been around since before the time of Christ.
> Just because *you've* apparently forgotten 'the reason for the season'
> doesn't mean the *original -- and supposedly still current* reason no
longer
> exists.
>
No - just becuase I remember it doesn't mean that subsequent revisions are
valid.
> Because last time I looked, my Christian friends and neighbors don't go to
> church on Christmas day or Christmas eve to worship and sing about *Santa
> Claus*.
Why would they? They are in church and Santa Clause is a secular figure. I
have stated repeatedly that the Christians decided (fairly recently) to
celebrate the birth of Christ in December but that does not mean that the
holiday has its roots in Christianity. It was around for a long time before
the Christians adopted it.
> "...for unto you is born this day, in the City of David, a Savior, which
> is............a fat guy in a red suit"? Wha---?
Obviously the whole problem here is that you have trouble keeping the two
concepts separate. Jesus was a man. Does that make all men Jesus? No, of
course not. Christians celebrate the birth of Christ on Christmas. Does that
mean that all celebrations on Christams are about Christ? No, of course not.
> It doesn't even sing that way in The Messiah.
I've got news for you - that whole nativity scene? - Not from the Bible.
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/3wisemen.asp
This link describes Santa as part of the secular celebration of Christmas
BTW - as opposed to the religious celebration optimized by the fictitious
nativity scene. If all these religious Christians don't even know that the
nativity scene (as commonly depicted) is not part of their Bible how do you
expect them to get the rest of the stuff about Santa etc right?
--
CBI
CBI
Yes - it is a different majority but not irrelevant. The message is the
same - if you are in the current majority and take this "majority rules"
attitude you may someday be sorry when you suddenly find yourself on the
other end. I agree that it will not happen in terms of the current religious
majority any time soon.
> Meanwhile, you say that as if it is a bad thing.
>
Only for those who are now in the majority and seem to count on that never
changing. .
> And yes, I believe some people are frightened of the changes taking place.
> Some will be prepared. Some will not.
Agreed.
--
CBI
lsk
"toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> On 20 Dec 2002 23:57:01 GMT, gitr...@aol.com (GI Trekker) wrote:
>
> >No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your home.
Please
> >don't try to tell the majority of others what should or should not be
> >acceptable in public society.
>
> Celebrate anything you wish to in *your* home, but do not place this
> into public schools were all children attend. If you wish your
> children to celebrate Christmas in their school, then send them to
> a private Christian school.
>
> Dorothy
>
> --
>
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> source unknown
This is very much my opinion, regarding all religious holidays. But then I
attended a secular school where religion was only taught as part of overall
history. I was brought up in a secular home, but, I do remember friends
going to Sunday school in Catholic and Orthodox Christian Churches and
others going to Muslim Mektebs and others observing Sabbath and having
Jewish history and Ladino lanugage classes in the Synagogue/Temple.
This has changed in the last ten years. Whether I will remain in my hometown
or not in three years depends mainly to what extent will the current
education curricula, that includes (non-obligatory, but almost every school
observes) religious education, become secular and delete religious education
(prayers and celebrations) and turn them into some kind of a secular subject
such as History of Religion.
I don't want DD to go to a school where she will be: a) labeled as of a
specific religious group (no place for secular families nor children from
mixed marriages), b) be a majority religious group nor c) be a minority
religious group. I want schools to provide high quality education in social
studies and sciences and arts... and leave religion to the private sphere of
life
Lejla
CBI
>
> > It doesn't even sing that way in The Messiah.
>
> I've got news for you - that whole nativity scene? - Not from the Bible.
>
> http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/3wisemen.asp
>
> This link describes Santa as part of the secular celebration of Christmas
> BTW - as opposed to the religious celebration optimized by the fictitious
> nativity scene. If all these religious Christians don't even know that the
> nativity scene (as commonly depicted) is not part of their Bible how do
you
> expect them to get the rest of the stuff about Santa etc right?
>
BTW - do you know how many of each animal Noah took on the ark? For all of
you who said two the answer may surprise you.
What is meant in the Bible by "spilling the seed." I'll bet it is not what
most of you think.
There are a lot of commonly held misperceptions about the Bible/religion
that are perpetuated by the current popular culture.
--
CBI
Marie
> BTW - do you know how many of each animal Noah took on the ark? For all of
> you who said two the answer may surprise you.
>
> What is meant in the Bible by "spilling the seed." I'll bet it is not what
> most of you think.
>
> There are a lot of commonly held misperceptions about the Bible/religion
> that are perpetuated by the current popular culture.
Where would one find the answers to these questions? Very interesting...
Marie
Marie
> surprised that this topic didn't rear its ugly head until the last few
days
> before Christmas...other years it's started much earlier. :)
Mother Hickey hasn't been around here lately lol
Marie
P. Tierney
"CBI" <00...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> There are a lot of commonly held misperceptions about the Bible/religion
> that are perpetuated by the current popular culture.
Popular culture? Some of the items mentioned have not been
popularized by general culture, but by the religions themselves.
If a religion adapts a practice and the general culture accepts
that adaption, then it essentially becomes a part of the practice
of that religion, regardless as to whether or not that practice can
be traced back to the root of the religion (the Bible, in this case).
P.
Tierney
Joni Rathbun
Uhm, I said the minority was protected from the majority. Furthermore, it
was quite clear that that was what I supported. I have not demonstrated a
"majority rules" attitude at all, not even close. You must be confused.
D. C. Sessions
> DC said:
>> > There is no real reason for you to be less comfortable with it than with
>> > thanksgiving or the fourth of July. If you are not it is because you are
>> > buying into the Christian propaganda rather than the true history.
>
>> When Congress changes the legal holiday to the fourth Monday
>> in December, you'll have convinced us.
>
> Why? Is there some rule where secular holidays are always on the same day
> and religious ones are on the same date? Or is it the Monday thing (I agree
> that would be the day they would pick - look at "Presiden't day").
Nope -- but Congress is recognized as the authority over
some holidays (President's Day, MLK Day, Memorial Day,
Independence Day, Labor Day, Veteran's Day, and Thanksgiving
being notable.) New Year's Day is an artifact of the
calendar we use.
OTOH, if Congress were to set the dates of Easter, Passover,
or Ramadan they'd be totally ignored. As a "courtesy" to
religious communities the State closes shop on certain days
rather than suffer the disruption of being open for business
with critical people missing. For instance, I had jury duty
on Yom Kippur. When I checked to see if I was excused, all
but one of the juror pools were excused and that was in
Arizona. In New York, they don't even pretend: courts are
closed on major Jewish holidays.
So ask yourself: if Congress were to set the date of XMas
as the fourth Monday in December, what would happen?
--
begin signature.vbs
| In the course of every project there comes a time |
| when the best debugger is a can of gasoline. |
Barbara Bomberger
wrote:
>> most of those traditions have religious roots. It does NOT have a
>> *singularly* secular, American meaning (like Thanksgiving, Independence
>Day,
>> Labor Day, etc.).
>>
>
>Actually it started with pagan festivals. The Christians denounced it until
>the mid - 1800's.
No.
Some Christians (puritans, quakers, others) denounced Christmas until
the eighteen hundreds. Many other sects of Christianity (including
the church of england and roman catholicism, have celebrated some kind
of christmas celebration, albeit not the one we use now.
Henry Vii, for example, had huge christmas banquets and so on.
Cromwell forbade christmas celebrations in another time and place, but
then he was never really that mainstream anyway, revolution or no.
Barb
Robyn Kozierok
Cheryl S. <chery...@telocity.com> wrote:
>Looking at it from a practical standpoint, however, I'm not sure what
>his school should do instead.
Our small private school just had a winter Open House that had nothing
to do with the holidays. The kids have been learning French, so they
did a play in French (that the kids had apparently helped write, judging
from the content) about an expedition through various animal habitats.
Each child recited a poem of their own choice from memory (mostly
animal-related, or Robert Frost -- no one chose a holiday-related poem,
but I woudln't have been offended if anyone had). Many of the kids who
take music lessons (outside of school) also performed a song after their
poem. They sang some songs, not holiday or even "winter" songs -- just
happy kid songs.
I don't know if the Christian parents missed having their kids singing
holiday songs, but they seemed to enjoy the performance just fine. All
this just to say that you can have a perfectly nice performance in December
without making it revolve around Christmas, or a PC multi-cultural holiday
thing, or even a winter thing.
--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)
Barbara Bomberger
wrote:
>> This link describes Santa as part of the secular celebration of Christmas
>> BTW - as opposed to the religious celebration optimized by the fictitious
>> nativity scene. If all these religious Christians don't even know that the
>> nativity scene (as commonly depicted) is not part of their Bible how do
>you
>> expect them to get the rest of the stuff about Santa etc right?
MOst religions Christian (is there an unreligious christian?? either
you believe christ is the son of god or you don't), are aware that the
nativity is a symbol.
I don't see a problem in that.
However, I wouldn't say that it's not from he bible. The manger is
appropriate, as are the shepherds. The only thing out of place in
accuracy are the Maggi (and you could do better research than that
one, as to the kind of people they were). We do know that they
traveled, followed the star and saw christ. We don;t know the
accurate number from Matthew, that is correct. Three is a symbol,
drawn also from later references in the bible.
In many christian homes, especially, european, the maggi are not added
until Jan 6 or the last day of Christmas. In france, when they have
room, the move them across the table or mantel, as that time comes
closer.
It is true that Matthew references a "house" instead of the manger.
However, all indications in most other readings imply that the star
appeared only above the manger/stable/locale.
>BTW - do you know how many of each animal Noah took on the ark? For all of
>you who said two the answer may surprise you.
Yes. MOst religious Christians actually read the bible, ya know?
Seven sets of each clean beast, two sets of each unclean beast, and so
on................
Barb
Robyn Kozierok
CBI <00...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>"Circe" <gua...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:TXkN9.36306$6k.18...@news1.west.cox.net...
>> CBI wrote:
>> > "toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
>> > news:2mfa0vk56b2t8ooul...@4ax.com...
>> >> On 20 Dec 2002 23:57:01 GMT, gitr...@aol.com (GI Trekker) wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> No one can tell you what to celebrate or not celebrate in your
>> >>> home. Please don't try to tell the majority of others what should
>> >>> or should not be acceptable in public society.
>> >>
>> >> Celebrate anything you wish to in *your* home, but do not place this
>> >> into public schools were all children attend. If you wish your
>> >> children to celebrate Christmas in their school, then send them to
>> >> a private Christian school.
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > It is a holiday that Christians have tried to adopt, but it has
>> > never, at any point in its history, been primarily about religion.
>>
>> But Christmas is also not a holiday universally recognized and celebrated
>by
>> all Americans. It is a festival cobbled out of *European* traditions, and
>> most of those traditions have religious roots. It does NOT have a
>> *singularly* secular, American meaning (like Thanksgiving, Independence
>Day,
>> Labor Day, etc.).
>>
>
>Actually it started with pagan festivals. The Christians denounced it until
>relatively recently only after an effective propaganda campain by the
>Christians.
>
>
>> Given that Americans are not ALL of European origin (and are becoming less
>> dominantly European every day), the emphasis on Christmas, even as a
>secular
>> holiday, seems to me at best a textbook example of the dominant culture's
>> insensitivity to minority cultures.
>
>Really, as it is celebrated now, it is a distinctly American holiday.
>Imigrants brought in different eleents but as of the early 20th century no
>one was celebrating the holiday we now celebrate. Those Europeans that do
>have exported it back to Europe from America.
>
>> At worst, it exerts subtle pressure on
>> people for whom Christmas is not part of their traditions to
>> celebrate/recognize a holiday that is not their own. And I can't find
>myself
>> comfortable with public, government-sponsored institutions doing either of
>> those things.
>
>There is no real reason for you to be less comfortable with it than with
>buying into the Christian propaganda rather than the true history.
>
Perhaps, but what you call the "Christian propaganda" is a large part of
what the holiday is today in America. American Jews generally *do not*
celebrate Christmas in any way, and are offended at having it shoved
down the throats of our children in a government-sponsored institution
they are requred to attend (unless their parents can afford a private
alternative). And we appreciate it when others are uncomfortable with
schools shoving it down our Children's throats. Sorry, but for American
Jews today, Christmas is very different from Thanksgiving or the 4th of
July.
--Robyn
Banty
>
>On 23 Dec 2002 01:06:52 GMT, mary...@aol.comnojunk (Maryilee)
>wrote:
>
>>If the majority were restricting the rights of the minority, I'd agree with
>>you. That's not the case, as far as I can tell. Nobody is telling
>>non-Christians that they can't celebrate their religious or cultural holidays.
>>But why should the minority dictate what the majority can and can not
>>celebrate?
>>
>celebration when there are so many things that need to be covered
>academically?
Not a bad argument, but I would go for that reasoning being operational only
when I see that Valentine's day, birthdays, Halloween, and possibly also
Thanksgiving, Cinco de Mayo, etc. etc. etc. isn't taking up class time with
parties and unproductive picture-coloring and simple, directed cut and past
craft-making either.
But I don't see that happening, nor a ruckus being made about them.
This is what I would propose - if we're to keep the largest cultural holiday out
side the door, keep *all* the cultural holidays and celebrations, individual and
social, outside the door. And tailor activities around civic holidays to be
strictly educational about their meaning.
That, or celebrate our cultural holidays like other nations unself-conciously
celebrate their cultural holidays.
Banty
Banty
>
>"CBI" <00...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>> Several people have told you, and listed
>> credible sources supporting them, that this holiday is not Christian.
>
> Had I said such a comment in my religious school, I would've
>been sent to detention until I had recanted.
>
>> If you celebrate thanksgiving and July 4th
>> there is not reason not to celebrate Christmas.
>
If they were, would you be quite so anxious to give it to them?
Banty
Robyn Kozierok
CBI <00...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> No one is saying that the majority can't celebrate what it
>> wants. The problem is that when you have a public school in
>> which there are students from other religions, some of which
>> *forbid* their members from celebrating Christmas, you put
>> those children in an untenable position by asking them to
>> celebrate Christmas.
>
>I think you are overstaing things. First of all I don't think many official
>church doctrines "forbid" celebrating Chritmas. They just don't celbrate it.
>It is kind of like the way Christians don't celebrate Ramadan (or
>Thanksgiving) .
>
No, Judaism forbids the celebration of the traditions of other religions,
or even appearing to do so. The latter rules out even participation in the
secular aspects of what Christmas is in America today, according to most
Jewish authorities. Thus the emphasis on Xmas activities in some schools makes
life very uncomfortable for many Jewish kids. :(
--Robyn
Banty
>
>Nope -- but Congress is recognized as the authority over
>some holidays (President's Day, MLK Day, Memorial Day,
>Independence Day, Labor Day, Veteran's Day, and Thanksgiving
>being notable.) New Year's Day is an artifact of the
>calendar we use.
>
>OTOH, if Congress were to set the dates of Easter, Passover,
>or Ramadan they'd be totally ignored. As a "courtesy" to
>religious communities the State closes shop on certain days
>rather than suffer the disruption of being open for business
>with critical people missing. For instance, I had jury duty
>on Yom Kippur. When I checked to see if I was excused, all
>but one of the juror pools were excused and that was in
>Arizona. In New York, they don't even pretend: courts are
>closed on major Jewish holidays.
>
>So ask yourself: if Congress were to set the date of XMas
>as the fourth Monday in December, what would happen?
I dunno. Probably same thing that would happen if Congress were to set
Indepencance Day on the first Monday in July...
Banty
Ericka Kammerer
> Listen carefully to the contrary argument and tell me if it makes sense.
>
> What you are basically saying is that there is this winter festival that has
> been celebrated for a few millennia by people of many nations and many
> faiths. A few here and there attached some religious significance to it, but
> for the most part when it was referenced by religious groups it was
> denounced. The central character is a mythological man who was combined from
> a Nordic figure and the non-religious deeds of a Catholic Saint (gifts to
> kids) and invented in a poem, by an American author, that was not known to
> have any religious connection until after it was popular and the priest who
> wrote it (and hid the fact due it's lack of piety) came forward and claimed
> the work. The visual representation of this central figure was invented by
> an American illustrator for Harper's magazine and he was first made popular
> by American department stores as a marketing gimmick. The central custom of
> opening presents around a tree is borrowed from Germany, again with no
> religious significance.
>
> Now comes the part that is hard to swallow. The Christians decide to create
> a new holiday and celebrate it on the same day. Because of this - the fact
> that Christians are celebrating at the same time - you are saying you don't
> want to also celebrate at the same time. It is reminiscent of the kid who
> takes his ball and goes home because he doesn't get to pitch. Not only are
> you taking your ball and stomping off for home - you are trying to convince
> everyone else that they should too.
I think you are commiting the common fallacy of ignoring
the passage of time and its crucial role in history. While
Christmas as we know it (celebrated rougly at the time we celebrate
it) was established only around a thousand years ago, there is
evidence of Christ's birth being celebrated (at various times of
the year, depending on the group in question's ideas about when
he was born) as far back as 200 AD. And, in fact, the notion of
Christ's birthday being December 25th can be seen in texts at
least as far back as the fifth century. Catholic scholars, who
of course have an agenda, claim that there is ample evidence for
the date to have been seat at 12/25 even without the confluence
with pagan solstice festivals. And, of course, the Catholics,
who were far and away the dominant form of Christianity in
Europe until the Reformation. That's a *whole* lot of time
for Christmas to be overwhelmingly Christian and sanctioned
by the Christian church and for the non-Christian originating
traditions to be very assimilated. And even after the Reformation,
the Catholic church continued to celebrate Christmas. Some
Protestant churches also continued with celebrating Christmas.
So I think it is utterly senseless to say that
Christmas wasn't a Christian festival until recently. I
think that ignores a whole lot of history between then and
now--not to mention the effects of that history, particularly
on non-Christians.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> "Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>Muslims officially disagree, as do most Jewish leaders.
>>I'm not sure about the official Hindu position.
>
> The old appeal to authority - nice.
You know, that's pretty much the way religions work.
What is set by the recognized authorities becomes official
doctrine. *You* may not like that, but apparently you do
not follow these religions, so I'm not sure how you're
qualified to insist that it's bogus for those religions
to work that way. If your Catholic and the Pope makes
a pronouncement, that's the word straight from God. If
you're Muslim and the appropriate cleric makes a pronouncement,
same thing. If you're Jewish, there's a bit more latitude
as they don't recognize the straight-from-God sort of
pronouncement thing, but they also have a very strong
tradition of scholarship and rulings by rabbis that guide
the practice of Judaism for Jews.
> Can you tell us why they disagree and to exactly what the disagree?
They disagree because they hold Christian to be the
celebration of the birth of Christ, in whose divinity they
don't believe. They believe that Muslims and Jews should
not celebrate even the more secular aspects and should instead
concentrate on being better Muslims and Jews and observing
their own holy days more appropriately and that they should
maintain their own culture rather than appropriating a culture
that has often been hostile to them. If you do a little searching,
you'll turn up a wide variety of pronouncements with all the
detailed theological wrangling. It seems fairly arrogant for
you to assert that they ought to subscribe to *your* view that
the holiday is nearly wholly un-Christian until very recently,
especially with ample evidence to the contrary.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Ericka Kammerer
> "Ericka Kammerer" <e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:3E0687D2...@comcast.net...
>
>>CBI wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Why is the sentiment that we should;t celebrate Christmas rather than we
>>>should celebrate all these. Seems to me that would make much more sense.
>>>
>>
>>Because the decisions about which holy days belonging
>>to which religions in which manner should be left to individual
>>families to decide. I have no objection to schools teaching
>>*about* other religions (in fact, I think that's a good thing),
>>but I don't think that public schools should be *celebrating*
>>any religious holidays.
>>
>
> I agree. They should stop celebrating Easter and Halloween.
Many have, including ours.
Best wishes,
Ericka
Beth Clarkson
> "toto" <scar...@wicked.witch> wrote in message
> >
> > When will we celebrate Bodhi Day (December 6th) or
>
> Funny you should mention December 6th. THAT is the Christian holiday where
> the celebrate St. Nicolas (in most European countries - Dec 19th in a few) -
> not December 25th.
Dorothy,
Unless you allow your posts to be archived to groups.google, the only
way I'll see your response is when someone quotes all or part of it -
as CBI as done here.
Beth
>
> > Diwali
> > (Hindu New Year and festival of lights held in November)
>
> We have several Indian Friends and do celebrate Diwali with them. I wouldn't
> mind at all if it was discussed in school.
>
> > or
> > Hari raya Aidilfitrim, the joyous Muslim festival that comes after
> > the month of fasting of Ramadan?
Ericka Kammerer
>
> I think you are overstaing things. First of all I don't think many official
> church doctrines "forbid" celebrating Chritmas. They just don't celbrate it.
> It is kind of like the way Christians don't celebrate Ramadan (or
> Thanksgiving) .
Oh? Here is a fatwaa:
http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~islamic/ilm/knowledge/comparative/xmskufr1.html
" Again, the Muslim is reminded of the hadiths in which the Prophet
(saws) warned against imitating the non-believers and encouraged
distinguishing oneself from them in dress and manner. Whether taken from
the materialistic or the religious standpoint, Christmas can have no
place in the Muslim's heart nor in his home. Any Muslim, young or old,
who has a secure place in an Islamic community or group which has
regular activities and affords companionship will find little difficulty
in rejecting that which is harmful to himself and his family, in spite
of the apparent attractions. In some societies, refusal and resistance
may require actual jihad, but those who seek the acceptance of Allah and
fear Him will undertake the task with knowledge that they are striving
for salvation and will thus be firm and resolute."
And a statement from a rabbi:
http://www.vetssweatshop.net/yomtov8.htm
"SINCE CHRISTMAS IS NOW ALMOST AS MUCH A NATIONAL AS WELL AS A RELIGIOUS
HOLIDAY, CAN'T ALL AMERICANS, REGARDLESS OF RELIGION, JOIN THE CELEBRATION?
Christmas is not the 4th of July, or any other secular American holiday,
and it would be an insult to my Christian friends to regard it as
anything but what it is - THE MOST IMPORTANT CHRISTIAN HOLY DAY. Since
it celebrates the birth of Christian world's Messiah, and since Jews do
not accept Jesus as Messiah, Christmas cannot come within the area of
Jewish celebration."
There are plenty more. While some Muslims and Jews obviously make
other choices in their own families, particularly if the family is
an interfaith family, the vast majority of Jews and Muslims do not
celebrate Christmas and do not believe it is appropriate for them
to celebrate Christmas.
I think it's a rather arrogant assumption that your
construction of Christmas should override others', particularly
when based on some very shaky history.
Best wishes,
Ericka