Had to post this.
...kimberly
We tried so hard to make things better for our kids
that we made them worse. For my grandchildren, I'd like better.
I'd really like for them to know about hand me down
clothes and homemade ice cream and left over meat loaf sandwiches. I
really would. I hope you learn humility by being humiliated, and
that you learn honesty by being cheated. I hope you learn to make
your own bed and mow the lawn and wash the car. And I really hope nobody
gives you a brand new car when you are sixteen.
It will be good if at least one time you can see
puppies born and your old dog put to sleep. I hope you get a black eye
fighting for something you believe in, I hope you have to share a bedroom
with your younger brother. And it's all right if you have to draw a
line down the middle of the room, but when he wants to crawl under the
covers with you because he's scared, I hope you let him.
When you want to see a movie and your little brother
wants to tag along, I hope you'll let him. I hope you have to walk
uphill to school with your friends and that you live in a town where you
can do it safely.
On rainy days when you have to catch a ride, I hope you
don't ask your driver to drop you two blocks away so you won't be
seen riding with someone as uncool as your Mom.
If you want a slingshot, I hope your Dad teaches you how to make one
instead of buying one. I hope you learn to dig in the dirt and read
books. When you learn to use computers, I hope you also learn to add
and subtract in your head. I hope you get teased by your friends when
you have your first crush on a girl, and when you talk back to your
mother that you learn what ivory soap tastes like.
May you skin your knee climbing a mountain, burn you
hand on a stove and stick your tongue on a frozen flagpole. I don't
care if you try a beer once, but I hope you don't like it. And if a friend
offers you dope or a joint, I hope you realize he is not your friend.
I sure hope you make time to sit on a porch with your Grandpa and go
fishing with your Uncle. May you feel sorrow at a funeral and joy
during the holidays. I hope your mother punishes you when you throw a
baseball through you neighbor's window and that she hugs you and kisses
you at Christmas time when you give her a plaster mold of your hand.
These things I wish for you-tough times and disappointment, hard work
and happiness. To me, its the only way to appreciate life.
--
...kimberly.
Mom to Peyton Cole (22 mo.) and #2 Pokemon (Mar. 20, 37 weeks now)
Meet Peyton at http://www.kimberly.net!
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
crappy in the world, I needed to read that.
Thanks, Sophie
mom to Charlotte (20 months) and Patrick (3 months)
Terrie
Terrie
EDD 4/23/00 with #3
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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AlanKngsly
would strongly advise against making a slingshot for a kid (or giving him a BB
gun for that matter). And washing a kid's mouth out with soap is tantamount to
child abuse, IMO.
Alan
RNR
alank...@aol.com (AlanKngsly) wrote:
> And washing a kid's mouth out with soap is tantamount to
>child abuse, IMO.
How so? I know that Alexander has _eaten_ more soap than would get
into his system from us washing his mouth out.
Regards,
Ranee
--
Anyone who is not a socialist at 16 has no heart,
but anyone who still is at 32 has no mind.
Terrie
it is), but I
>would strongly advise against making a slingshot for a kid (or
giving him a BB
is tantamount to
>child abuse, IMO.
>
>
>
I threatened to wash my 3 1/2 year old son's mouth out with soap
recently and, being the smart a** that he is, he got the liquid
soap and put some in his own mouth (thinking that "he would show
me"). Personally, I thought it was absolutely hilarious. You
might have to know Ryan to appreciate this. He's 3 1/2 going on
about 15 (attitude!!!). He didn't cry or get upset, but he did
spend a lot of time spitting in the toilet. LOL!!! And he
realized how bad it tasted. Anyway, it worked. He stopped
saying the "not so nice" words that I didn't like (shut up,
stupid, etc.) and I didn't even have to do anything. He did it
himself!!
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
Later, Sophie
a_mom
pellet guns and a rifle also. Oh, and paintball. They also know how to carry
them, clean them, and take responsibility for mess ups (like the lizard that
that lost it's leg..it recovered, luckily, but that particular son will not
do it again unless he's really hungry since they have all been told that if
they shoot any creature for fun (not protection or food) they will be eating
it unless it's poisonous..in which case they will do whatever that
particular situation calls for.) They also know how to fish, start a
campfire (and keep it going), they can clean a fish and will be going
hunting this fall probably. The oldest owns a couple knives (had to be taken
away from him once, but not since) and the next two will probably be getting
their own knives this summer now that they are showing that they're
responsible.I don't see any problem with kids knowing how to use guns or
other weapons *IF* the parents have taken the time to teach the kids how to
use them properly and responsibly.
We don't keep the weapons (bb guns or more powerful) where the youngest 3
can reach them, we don't keep the ammo in the same area of the house. The
kids are not allowed at this point to take the guns out without us near even
though the oldest is very trustworthy...There's a lot of common stuff that
goes along with living in this world, just seems many people can't decide
who's responsibilty it is to teach the kids or take care of them so no one
does and blames the resulting problems on everyone else. Pretty sad.
Personally, I am not into wild hares and coyotes playing in the yard with
the kids, or the rattlesnakes - if one of the kids happens to pop one of
those critters so they don't get the cat or the younger kids, great. (this
depends on where you live, of course - if we were still in the city I doubt
the kids would know any of that stuff other than fishing...but we live in a
very rural area)
The soap thing - I'm pretty sure my brother and I got that once or twice, I
know my mom and her siblings did (some of the stuff they pulled...amazing
they survived at all!) and 2 of mine have had it. Like someone else posted,
they eat more soap in the tub than any parent would put in their mouth!! (I
would hope) I'm thinking it was a 1/4 teaspoon maybe that my kids got...and
considering that they all have been into the bathwater-drinking,
bubble-eating thing in their lives (2 still are), that little bit doesn't
seem to me like a big deal. The only difference is that they were being
disciplined at the time - told what they had done, why they were getting
that particular form, and what results were expected...understood and dealt
with. Heck, even my dog used to come in the bathroom and eat my bubbles from
baths when I was little. It won't kill them, does no lasting damage, won't
leave marks. Call me whatever you want, but I'll go with my kids' opinion of
me before a stranger's opinion...I haven't done it for probably 6 years or
so, a lesson well learned by the kids involved and the younger ones have
heard the story so haven't pushed too far.
"AlanKngsly" <alank...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000302163912...@ng-xe1.aol.com...
loriann
a prerequisite to learning humility is a crock of sh*t (and a good way to
instill anger), learning honesty by being cheated is asinine (and a good way
to instill anger), having to physically fight another kid (and get a
complementary black eye) to stand for something is barbaric (").
IMO, what Paul Harvey is suggesting as parenting advice for the present is
little more than fluffy retroist histrionics. These values may have worked
at one time, but then again, they created the monsters that are the parents
who refuse to abide by them. Maybe it's because today's parents remember
too much.
lori (who never liked that a--hole)
AlanKngsly
>
>Later, Sophie
You're welcome, Sophie....but it ruined itself before I got here.
Alan
AlanKngsly
>the kids, or the rattlesnakes - if one of the kids happens to pop one of
>those critters so they don't get the cat or the younger kids, great. (this
>depends on where you live, of course - if we were still in the city I doubt
>the kids would know any of that stuff other than fishing...but we live in a
>very rural area)
Well, there ya go. I was speaking in terms of the vast majority of people who
do not live in such remote areas. I would still not give my kids BB guns even
if we lived in the country, but I guess I don't have a problem with other
parents letting their kids have them if they don't leave the property. But in
more densely populated areas, it's just a bad idea. I'm still pissed about the
$400 bill for replacing our van's window after some kids (I assume) shot it out
with a BB gun. And those things really can be lethal if they hit someone in
the eye.
As for soap in the mouth, I really can't believe parents are still doing that.
I mean, Paul Harvey is older than God so I am not so surprised hearing it from
him....but people young enough to have kids are still doing this? Does no one
else agree with me that this is wrong?
Alan
AlanKngsly
I'm glad *someone* did!
>I also think that the notion that being humiliated is
>a prerequisite to learning humility is a crock of sh*t (and a good way to
>instill anger), learning honesty by being cheated is asinine (and a good way
>to instill anger), having to physically fight another kid (and get a
>complementary black eye) to stand for something is barbaric (").
Yeah, I agree with you about those things, too....but I just felt I could let
them pass in order to stress what I felt were the most egregious offenses in
the piece.
>IMO, what Paul Harvey is suggesting as parenting advice for the present is
>little more than fluffy retroist histrionics. These values may have worked
>at one time, but then again, they created the monsters that are the parents
>who refuse to abide by them. Maybe it's because today's parents remember
>too much.
Good point! Kind of reminds me of that Camper van Beethoven song,
"Sweetheart," which is about Ronald Reagan but could fit here as well (I don't
remember the exact lyrics, but there's something about "It's circa 1945, and
we're all sitting at the fountain, at the five and dime....in black and white,
life is so easy").
>lori (who never liked that a--hole)
Ya know, the funny thing is, I always liked him on the radio, and I still
listen to his radio stuff and find it hard to detect a conservative slant. But
thanks to this newsgroup, I have been exposed to two of his written columns,
both of which were a bit nauseous.
Alan
Julia Ream
> As for soap in the mouth, I really can't believe parents are still doing
that.
> I mean, Paul Harvey is older than God so I am not so surprised hearing it
from
> him....but people young enough to have kids are still doing this? Does no
one
> else agree with me that this is wrong?
>
I don't know Alan. I don't have my child yet, but I don't see a huge
problem with it...of course, not for really young child. In my opinion, if
it's done in a calm (not angry) manner, after an explanation of what has
been done wrong and why, I don't think it's the worst thing you can do.
I had my mouth "washed out" with soap numerous times, but it was done with a
bar of soap, and basically involved us standing there for a minute or so
with a bar of soap in our mouths, or just having to "bite" the soap so that
we got the taste. I remember my mom doing it to see how it tasted, as well.
It was common to see bite marks on our bar of Zest from something either I
or my brother had said. I don't have any damaging memories of those
incidences, and I never felt humiliated or abused because of it, but then, I
have REALLY great parents. I think that could make a difference. If a
parent angrily shoves a bar of soap in a kids mouth, or pours some liquid
down their throat and yells and screams at them, it could really be
considered abusive. But then, if you are angry while disciplining your
child, I think it could be easy to make even the "softest" form of
discipline seem like ABUSE.
I can definitely understand how you find it appalling...I really can. But I
can see it from another perspective because I had it done to me when I was a
kid. I have to say that I don't think it's absolutely abusive at any time,
but I can definitely see if a parent doesn't take lots of precautions, it
could easily end up being abusive.
Take Care,
Julia Ream
--
and "ticker" EDD 08/14/00
Marie
AlanKngsly wrote in message
<20000303091801...@ng-xe1.aol.com>...
parents are still doing that.
>I mean, Paul Harvey is older than God so I am not so
surprised hearing it from
>him....but people young enough to have kids are still
doing this? Does no one
>else agree with me that this is wrong?
I think it's abuse, also. Imagine cramming soap in a
poor kid's mouth. That is horrible. But then I think
some other things are child abuse/neglect that most
people wouldn't agree with.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
>
>Alan
louisa
"Julia Ream" <Julia...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> AlanKngsly <alank...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000303091801...@ng-xe1.aol.com...
>
> > As for soap in the mouth, I really can't believe parents are still doing
> that.
> > I mean, Paul Harvey is older than God so I am not so surprised hearing it
> from
> > him....but people young enough to have kids are still doing this? Does no
> one
> > else agree with me that this is wrong?
> >
>
> I don't know Alan. I don't have my child yet, but I don't see a huge
> problem with it...of course, not for really young child. In my opinion, if
> it's done in a calm (not angry) manner, after an explanation of what has
> been done wrong and why, I don't think it's the worst thing you can do.
IMHO it is far worse to 'calmly' inflict a sadistic punishment on a child
than to do it in anger. And much worse to 'explain' that one is doing
this ugly thing because one 'loves' the child. What a wonderful lesson --
people who 'love you' will calmly and coldly inflict pain on you --
shouldn't be hard to connect the dots on the potential of that for healthy
development.
loriann
AlanKngsly wrote:
>
> As for soap in the mouth, I really can't believe parents are still doing
that.
> I mean, Paul Harvey is older than God so I am not so surprised hearing it
from
> him....but people young enough to have kids are still doing this? Does no
one
> else agree with me that this is wrong?
>
Alan, of course it's wrong. It's even illegal -- at least when it's done to
an *adult*. There was a story in the D.C. Post just a day or so ago about a
teacher who brought suit against two of his students who, as a practical
joke, put some soap into his drinking water. Fortunately this ain't Texas
so the boys aren't going to jail or anything, but I think the story
illustrates how nonsensical it is that we think it's okay to do these things
to children, and then expect them grow up respecting the rights and
boundaries of others. I just don't get the logic that says that if you're
deliberately and sufficiently cruel to your children, they'll grow up to be
better people.
lori
Marie
if done to another adult, they would be arrested. It's
pretty sad.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
loriann wrote in message ...
loriann
AlanKngsly wrote:
> Ya know, the funny thing is, I always liked him on the radio, and I still
> listen to his radio stuff and find it hard to detect a conservative slant.
But
> thanks to this newsgroup, I have been exposed to two of his written
columns,
> both of which were a bit nauseous.
I used to listen to him about 15-20 years ago and I thought most of what he
said was benign and even corny (unlike Rush Limbaugh who makes me want to
put my fist through the wall). Paul Harvey's melodramatics and tendency to
wax nostalgic (sort of like any old codger saying stuff like "when I was a
kid we walked five miles barefoot through the snow to get to school and ate
cardboard for breakfast and we LOVED it") is mostly more than I can stomach
though. I really resent his tendency to oversimplify the problems of today
and make it sound like if we just went back in time, everything would
magically fix itself.
And I'm not familiar with the CVB song, but it sounds apropos.
lori
Terrie
03030010...@a198119.n1.vanderbilt.edu>,
loui...@homeplc.com (louisa) wrote:
>In article <3_Qv4.473$Pq3.53362@bgtnsc05-
news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>
>IMHO it is far worse to 'calmly' inflict a sadistic punishment
on a child
>than to do it in anger. And much worse to 'explain' that one
is doing
>this ugly thing because one 'loves' the child. What a
wonderful lesson --
>people who 'love you' will calmly and coldly inflict pain on
you --
>shouldn't be hard to connect the dots on the potential of that
for healthy
>development.
>
>
Kind of like the people that say "I won't ever spank my child
out of anger". So you're going to spank your children when you
are pleased with them and when you're happy.
I understand that you don't want to wait until you are raging
with anger to finally deliver a swat to a bottom, but the way
people say it always sounds ridiculous to me.
Terrie
Julia Ream
louisa <loui...@homeplc.com> wrote in message
news:louisawd-030...@a198119.n1.vanderbilt.edu...
> IMHO it is far worse to 'calmly' inflict a sadistic punishment on a child
> than to do it in anger. And much worse to 'explain' that one is doing
> this ugly thing because one 'loves' the child. What a wonderful lesson --
> people who 'love you' will calmly and coldly inflict pain on you --
> shouldn't be hard to connect the dots on the potential of that for healthy
> development.
I definitely think it's just a matter of opinion. My parents did that as
well as spank me with a belt (gasp) for certain punishments, and I never
once felt humiliated or abused. I always knew they loved me, and I really
did feel that is was just as hard on them (if not harder) than it was on me.
Personally, I think they were just doing to best that they knew how to
do...and whatever they did, it worked. I never learned to hit or hurt other
people as a result of it, (I've never, ever hit a person in my life), and I
haven't hit or abused (emotionally or physically) my stepson either (and
he's a teenager...so that's saying a lot!).
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, and honestly, because my husband is so
uncomfortable with it, I don't think we'll be doing it (spanking, that
is...haven't talked about the soap), but I wouldn't consider it abuse
without knowing exactly how the parents went about it.
But, like I said in response to Alan's post...I certainly can understand
where you and he (and many others) are coming from, but after being
disciplined that way myself, I really can't say that I would call it abuse
by any means.
Terrie
$M83....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "loriann"
<swtw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>
>Alan, of course it's wrong. It's even illegal -- at least when
it's done to
>an *adult*. There was a story in the D.C. Post just a day or
so ago about a
>teacher who brought suit against two of his students who, as a
practical
>joke, put some soap into his drinking water
>
That is a totally different situation. They did it as a
practical joke and expected the teacher to actually ingest it so
as to cause harm. When "washing a child's mouth out with soap"
it is usually not expected that the child will be swallowing the
soap. It is done as a punishment for using "dirty" language or
some people have their children bite a bar of soap when they
have bitten someone else (if you want to bite something, bite
this bar of soap). Either way, it makes the child think twice
before saying or doing it again.
>I just don't get the logic that says that if you're
>deliberately and sufficiently cruel to your children, they'll
grow up to be
>better people.
>
>lori
>
This is not about being "deliberately and sufficiently cruel to
your children" without reason. That would be abuse, just as
making them sit in "time out" for absolutely no reason could be
considered abuse (or neglect).
Many child "experts" are now stating that children should learn
from "natural consequences" rather than punishment. But the
reality is that even as adults, there are certain "punishments"
for committing crimes (although not always fairly handed down
thanks to our wonderful judicial system).
What are the "natural consequences" of using bad language or
biting someone? I think that the old, "if you can't clean up
your mouth, then I'll do it for you" attitude is reasonable and
it works. My son only put a tiny drop of soap in his mouth, but
now he knows what it tastes like. He has certainly cleaned up
his mouth since then and I think that it is better than the slap
across the face that people used to use.
RNR
<mommy...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>There are lots of things adults can do to children that
>if done to another adult, they would be arrested. It's
>pretty sad.
>Marie
>http://go.to/mommydowis
Yeah, like grounding them, or cutting off their allowance, or sending
them to their rooms, or cutting them off from the phone, or...Come on
people! Of course there are things that parents can do that you can't do
as an adult to an adult.
Lee
>Yeah, like grounding them, or cutting off their
> allowance, or sending them to their rooms, or
> cutting them off from the phone, or...Come on
> people! Of course there are things that
> parents can do that you can't do as an adult
> to an adult.
Yeah, just try wiping a grown-ups ass....get yourself into some trouble
for that!
Lee
(Mommy to Genevieve Caroline 6-2-00, Mercedes Raeanne 2-9-96, Amber
Denise 4-4-93 and step-mommy to D'Wayne Allen 6-30-89)
Personal quotes:
" Nothing is fool-proof for a talented fool. "
" Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
Come and read my pregnancy journal, new entries every week! Click the
link below!
http://community.webtv.net/louisal/main
See some pictures of me and my family, click below!
http://community.webtv.net/louisal/TheFamily
Julia Ream
Lee <lou...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:7917-38...@storefull-288.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Yeah, just try wiping a grown-ups ass....get yourself into some trouble
> for that!
>
Hey, some may like that! While searching the web on diapers...I found quite
a few astonishing web sites for adults who enjoy that very thing.
Ewwww....but hey, I'm not going to judge!
Sorry to change the topic!
Terrie
lou...@webtv.net (Lee) wrote:
>Ranee wrote:
>>Yeah, like grounding them, or cutting off their
>> allowance, or sending them to their rooms, or
>> cutting them off from the phone, or...Come on
>> people! Of course there are things that
>> parents can do that you can't do as an adult
>> to an adult.
>
trouble
>for that!
>
>
>(Mommy to Genevieve Caroline 6-2-00, Mercedes Raeanne 2-9-96,
Amber
>Denise 4-4-93 and step-mommy to D'Wayne Allen 6-30-89)
>
>
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Terrie
EDD 4/23/00 with #3
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
Terrie
<ki...@kimberly.net> wrote:
>Good lord. The last thing I wanted posting this to bring was a
debate on
>child abuse and politics!!
>
>--
>
>....kimberly.
>Mom to Peyton Cole (22 mo.) and #2 Pokemon (Mar. 20, 37 weeks
now)
>Meet Peyton at http://www.kimberly.net!
>
>
>
>
much trouble because one person who didn't like it had to jump
in?
I, for one, appreciated it, Kimberly!!
Thank you, again.
loriann
Terrie wrote:
> >
> Isn't it a shame that an innocent post like this can cause so
> much trouble because one person who didn't like it had to jump
> in?
>
> I, for one, appreciated it, Kimberly!!
>
You really have no basis to complain about it. You're just as "guilty" of
stirring this so-called trouble since you contributed your opinion, too.
Since when is posting a dissenting opinion discouraged on Usenet? No one
flamed anyone. I think you're confused.
lori
...kimberly
AlanKngsly
>now he knows what it tastes like. He has certainly cleaned up
>his mouth since then and I think that it is better than the slap
>across the face that people used to use.
>
>Terrie
Personally, I swear in front of my baby son, have no plans to stop, and don't
care if he swears when he starts talking. (Wouldn't it be hilarious if his
first word was a profanity? LOL)
Alan
AlanKngsly
>debate on
>>child abuse and politics!!
>>
>>--
>>
>>Mom to Peyton Cole (22 mo.) and #2 Pokemon (Mar. 20, 37 weeks
>now)
>>Meet Peyton at http://www.kimberly.net!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>much trouble because one person who didn't like it had to jump
>in?
>
>I, for one, appreciated it, Kimberly!!
>
>Terrie
But you guys only think it's innocent because you apparently agree with Paul
Harvey. If you look at the piece, it is itself political (essentially calling
for a return to "traditional" values and implicitly supporting conservative
politics), and advocating a form of child discipline that many of us feel is
child abuse. Don't try to pull this innocent, martyr stuff..
Alan..
RNR
alank...@aol.com (AlanKngsly) wrote:
Yeah, that would be so funny...Starting a kid out that way doesn't
teach them that there are innappropriate ways to express themselves in
everyday life. Talking that way at work, or in school, or to anyone they
happen to meet, will not make a good impression, and will most likely
hamper them.
shmily
AlanKngsly <alank...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000304085032...@ng-dc1.aol.com...
> > My son only put a tiny drop of soap in his mouth, but
> >now he knows what it tastes like. He has certainly cleaned up
> >his mouth since then and I think that it is better than the slap
> >across the face that people used to use.
> >
> >Terrie
>
> Personally, I swear in front of my baby son, have no plans to stop, and
don't
> care if he swears when he starts talking. (Wouldn't it be hilarious if
his
> first word was a profanity? LOL)
>
> Alan
Wonder if you'll think it's funny when the little toddler starts using
"f---ing" this and that in normal conversation?
N
lnrp...@ripco.com
> >>now he knows what it tastes like. He has certainly cleaned up
> >>his mouth since then and I think that it is better than the slap
> >>across the face that people used to use.
> >>
> >>Terrie
> >
> >Personally, I swear in front of my baby son, have no plans to stop, and don't
> >care if he swears when he starts talking. (Wouldn't it be hilarious if his
> >first word was a profanity? LOL)
> >
> >Alan
>
> teach them that there are innappropriate ways to express themselves in
> everyday life. Talking that way at work, or in school, or to anyone they
> happen to meet, will not make a good impression, and will most likely
> hamper them.
I think that it depends on when you swear. For example if I stub my toe
really hard I very well might yell "shiiiiiit!" or say it under my
breath. I'm human, and that's the way I am. I don't use swear-words
casually though, except maybe a quasi-cuss-word crap or crappy which my
kids use very occiasionally, but they use it appropriately (like once
when a toy broke the first day my daughter said "mom this toy is crappy;
look it broke already). I don't see a problem with it. We do say "f"
instead of the full word, though, b/c that would seem rather nasty to
hear especially coming from a kid.
--
Colette
l n r p l x u s a t r i p c o d o t c o m
^^^^^^reduce for email^^^^^^
Peace begins at birth. Support non-nurse midwifery.
http://www.geocities.com/Wellesley/5510
RNR
I'm not one to swear much, casually or not, but my problem with
teaching kids that it's okay is this: When it is commonplace for
children, they don't learn that there are "appropriate" and inappropriate
times for words like that. They just know that mom and dad use them, and
they don't care if the kids use them, either.
lnrp...@ripco.com
> I'm not one to swear much, casually or not, but my problem with
> teaching kids that it's okay is this: When it is commonplace for
> children, they don't learn that there are "appropriate" and inappropriate
> times for words like that. They just know that mom and dad use them, and
> they don't care if the kids use them, either.
I disagree. First, we are modelling appropriate use and, second, we have
discussed aproppriate use. Kids can learn things like it's okay to touch
anything on the table at our house, but at Grammny's you must ask first
and in stores you must only use your eyes to look and never touch. They
can also learn that certain words are not to be said in places of
worship or in front of strangers and should only be used to express
extreme frustration (for example instead of hitting or destroying
something) -- or whatever limits you think are appropriate.
lnrp...@ripco.com
lnrp...@ripco.com wrote:
>
> RNR wrote:
>
> > I'm not one to swear much, casually or not, but my problem with
> > teaching kids that it's okay is this: When it is commonplace for
> > children, they don't learn that there are "appropriate" and inappropriate
> > times for words like that. They just know that mom and dad use them, and
> > they don't care if the kids use them, either.
>
> I disagree. First, we are modelling appropriate use and, second, we have
> discussed aproppriate use. Kids can learn things like it's okay to touch
> anything on the table at our house, but at Grammny's you must ask first
> and in stores you must only use your eyes to look and never touch. They
> can also learn that certain words are not to be said in places of
> worship or in front of strangers and should only be used to express
> extreme frustration (for example instead of hitting or destroying
> something) -- or whatever limits you think are appropriate.
Anothe limit we put (and model by our own behavior) is that they should
not be directed at a person.
And we don't swear all that much -- really.
Marie
Mine do.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
RNR wrote in message ...
> I'm not one to swear much, casually or not, but my
problem with
>teaching kids that it's okay is this: When it is
commonplace for
>children, they don't learn that there are
"appropriate" and inappropriate
>times for words like that. They just know that mom
and dad use them, and
>they don't care if the kids use them, either.
>
catheytexas
My son never had any problem remembering what was
appropriate where and when. He didn't want to be embarassed
by saying or doing the wrong thing, and although certain
words were sometimes said at home, they didn't slip out
anywhere else, any more than any of us would forget and
start taking our clothes off in public.
My feeling is that "forbidden" things become instantly more
seductive to many people, adults and children alike, and
may cause more of a focus on the forbidden activity than
would have existed if the activity were tolerated, within
appropriate limits.
On the other hand, if the parents really believe that using
such controversial language is morally wrong, then it's
certainly their responsibility to refrain from using it
themselves, anywhere, and to instruct their children in the
same manner.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
al...@gateway.net
> ...kimberly.
Nice choice to post, ...kimberly. It kind of hit home for me on several
fronts.
It made me think about when dad had to put Marbles down; our whole
family's favorite horse, and though we were all raised with a whole lot
of guns in the house, and I guess any one of us could have gone out and
done a Columbine if we wanted to, it just never would have occurred to
us after seeing what a gun can do to a real living being that we loved.
I guess these days it would be considered a hardship for brothers and
sisters to share rooms instead of having their own bedrooms, even worse
if there weren't TV's in all those rooms.. but I think it taught us how
to negotiate differences and showed us how expensive it is to be
unreasonable in the long run.
Those are just a couple of examples, but it makes me think that perhaps
the move to isolate children from all hardships and realities and the
dirty sides of life is ultimately counterproductive. Perhaps instead of
"total insulation," the model should be "managed exposure."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
a_mom
works in a prison - not easy to stay away from that kind of thing either of
those types of jobs) butI rarely do - and by rarely, I mean that I might say
a word out loud *maybe* once every 6 months if that. I don't like to hear
the words, especially from myself or the kids. I've been very lucky that for
the most part I don't have to deal with the kids and swearing...when I do
hear it, they get a warning (usually I hear it when they're 3-4 years old)
and I haven't had problems with hearing the words again (except for the 13
year old a few months ago, we dealt with that without soap and it hasn't
happened again)
Sure, kids will maybe learn where to use the words or not - but if the
public schools or other public places you see kids (without their parents
right there) are any indication...I wouldn't bet on it. We make up words to
use when we're really angry or upset, but nothing I wouldn't be willing to
say in front of my parents or grandparents. I wasn't raised to swear, and
though my dad did I didn't. (My dad doesn't much anymore, he has found
better ways of dealing with things)
So I guess let your kids swear if you want - my MIL did - but don't be
surprised when you hear them use the words in very inappropriate places (or
are told by someone else that they were swearing) as they get older.
just another old-fashioned person, I guess...I'd like my kids to be mature
and decent in manner and dress.
news:evyvXagh$GA.268@cpmsnbbsa02...
>
>
> AlanKngsly <alank...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20000304085032...@ng-dc1.aol.com...
> > > My son only put a tiny drop of soap in his mouth, but
> > >now he knows what it tastes like. He has certainly cleaned up
> > >his mouth since then and I think that it is better than the slap
> > >across the face that people used to use.
> > >
> > >Terrie
> >
> > Personally, I swear in front of my baby son, have no plans to stop, and
> don't
> > care if he swears when he starts talking. (Wouldn't it be hilarious if
> his
> > first word was a profanity? LOL)
> >
> > Alan
>
>
>
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
house, or at least tries not too. I'm not a swearer myself. it still
surprises me when my husband swears around his mom, she apparently didn't
teach him when it was appropriate or not. I think it's really
disrespectful. Call me old-fashioned too.
Later, Sophie
mom to Charlotte (20 months) and Patrick (3 months)
loriann
<lnrp...@ripco.com> wrote in message news:38C16C...@ripco.com...
> RNR wrote:
>
> > I'm not one to swear much, casually or not, but my problem with
> > teaching kids that it's okay is this: When it is commonplace for
> > children, they don't learn that there are "appropriate" and
inappropriate
> > times for words like that. They just know that mom and dad use them,
and
> > they don't care if the kids use them, either.
>
> discussed aproppriate use. Kids can learn things like it's okay to touch
> anything on the table at our house, but at Grammny's you must ask first
> and in stores you must only use your eyes to look and never touch.
We swear moderately at home, in the car, around casual friends, but not in
public. Because we've told her and modeled it, our daughter knows when
swearing is to be expected, and when it isn't. I figure it's silly to
shelter her from something that's a part of us and a part of the world. We
know the boundaries of acceptability with swearing, so does she. Whoopee,
we're normal and we don't need soap torture.
lori
...kimberly
> But you guys only think it's innocent because you apparently agree with
Paul
> Harvey. If you look at the piece, it is itself political (essentially
calling
> for a return to "traditional" values and implicitly supporting
conservative
> politics), and advocating a form of child discipline that many of us feel
is
> child abuse. Don't try to pull this innocent, martyr stuff..
>
> Alan..
Of course, if you take everything completely and utterly literal.
Geeeeeeeeez.
Yes, I'm sure it IS a "conservative" view. But you know what? What I got
out of it is today's kids are so incredibly spoiled, etc. with things that
we adults now think are "necessary." A room of their own, a carpool ride to
school 2 miles away in a BMW, your mom spending 2 seconds to buy a plastic
halloween costume instead of "making up" one with her child, your dad
working 60+ hours a week, so instead of helping your practice your swing for
little league, he buys you "the best and most expensive" bat, glove, ball,
etc..........
THIS is what *I* got from it. (not yelling, just accentuating--->) SPEND
TIME WITH YOUR KIDS, DON'T BUY THEM EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD, HAVE THEM WORK
FOR THINGS THEY WANT, RESPECT YOUR ELDERS - SMELL THE ROSES INSTEAD OF THE
$500/OUNCE PERFUME. If that's child abuse, then I guess social services
needs to be called.
So if you want to take little bits and pieces as literal things (i.e., ivory
soap in the mouth), thereby missing the entire message, that's your
perogotive.
--
...kimberly.
Mom to Peyton Cole (22 mo.) and #2 Pokemon (Mar. 20, 37 and 6 now!)
...kimberly
(Now...if I can just get "eye to eye" with *another* person.....in
particular, one that is slimy and about 21" long............!)
--
...kimberly.
Mom to Peyton Cole (22 mo.) and #2 Pokemon (Mar. 20, 37 weeks now)
Meet Peyton at http://www.kimberly.net!
<al...@gateway.net> wrote in message news:89ruom$qfu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Barbara MacRae
AlanKngsly <alank...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>Personally, I swear in front of my baby son, have no plans to stop, and don't
>care if he swears when he starts talking. (Wouldn't it be hilarious if his
>first word was a profanity? LOL)
Hopefully he'll think it's really funny when none of the other
toddlers are allowed to play with him since their parents don't
want THEM talking like that.
-Barb, mama to Olivia, 6, & Ruby, 1.5
AlanKngsly
>"f---ing" this and that in normal conversation?
>
>N
>
I imagine I will, yes. But I have a less than typical plan in terms of what
kinds of things our children should be exposed to. For instance, I will not
have a problem with them seeing nudity in a movie (if it is a good movie), but
I won't let them watch exploitive, violent cartoons.
Alan
RNR
alank...@aol.com (AlanKngsly) wrote:
>A "profane" word is one more word that can expand my child's vocabulary, and
>the only reason it is considered "dirty" is that we live in a culture that is
>far too uptight and prudish.
Actually, no. Perhaps you are referring to a vulgar word. Shit, fuck,
asshole, etc fall under vulgar; damn, hell, Oh God!, Jesus, even bloody
(which has obvious roots) are profane. Vulgarity comes from the lower
class and were used by the uneducated, profanity was used to profane. To
take something that is sacred, holy or even (in the case of hell or the
devil) unholy and desecrate it or make it common. To remove the elevation
inherent in the word. Vulgarity is cheap and crass, while profanity
actually purposes to offend and treat disrespectfully what others find
sacred. One is just an ignorant set of words, the other is hate speech.
tecia
AlanKngsly <alank...@aol.com> writes
>
>As for soap in the mouth, I really can't believe parents are still doing that.
>I mean, Paul Harvey is older than God so I am not so surprised hearing it from
>him....but people young enough to have kids are still doing this? Does no one
>else agree with me that this is wrong?
>
>Alan
I guess you knew you could count on me, right, Alan?
The idea of doing something like this to a child does actually really shock
me. Its not so much that I would think I had the right to tell other people
not to do it, but the idea of holding down a child and forcing something
into their mouth as a punishment....no, I just couldn't do it. Perhaps my
kids are just well behaved, or maybe (more likely) I'll learn when they're
a lot older(!), but I've never had to "punish" any of them at all, ever. We
don't do time out, or spanking, or anything like that: if one of them is doing
something they shouldn't, I'll tell them why, tell them not to and they stop
doing it. I can't imagine inflicting "punishment" on a child - it gives me the
creeps.
I guess maybe it gets worse when they get older.
--
C
Mama to Peter (3), Isabel (23 months)
Georgia and Anna (13 months)
and Andrew Michael (Feb 25)
I wanted to get out and change the world, but I couldn't find a babysitter
=====================================================
Melanie Casey
>Personally, I swear in front of my baby son, have no plans to stop, and don't
>care if he swears when he starts talking. (Wouldn't it be hilarious if his
>first word was a profanity? LOL)
Yes, your child would be a real class act just like his 'ol dad.
Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind attempting to express itself
forcefully.
---Melanie Casey---
AlanKngsly
Nothing feeble about my mind, unless you apply the circular reasoning that
swearing is prima facie evidence of feeblemindedness.
A "profane" word is one more word that can expand my child's vocabulary, and
the only reason it is considered "dirty" is that we live in a culture that is
far too uptight and prudish.
Alan
shmily
AlanKngsly <alank...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000305042638...@ng-xe1.aol.com...
Do you mean to say you will allow say, a 3 year old little kid to watch a
hot love scene with full frontal nudity? What if you have a little girl?
Will you go naked in front of her? For how long?
I am genuinely curious.
Norma
shmily
Alan, he may have a bit of trouble with other people in the world who
consider it bad manners to swear in normal conversation, at school or at
work. You might be doing him a disservice. Also, do you consider that
good manners are important? What about good morals? For instance, say
he has a teacher, she makes him unhappy with a difficult assignment, he
could say "This is awful, teacher!" Or he could say "This f--king sucks,
b-tch!" What do you think will happen if he does the second one?
Norma
AlanKngsly
>consider it bad manners to swear in normal conversation, at school or at
>work. You might be doing him a disservice. Also, do you consider that
>good manners are important? What about good morals? For instance, say
>he has a teacher, she makes him unhappy with a difficult assignment, he
>could say "This is awful, teacher!" Or he could say "This f--king sucks,
>b-tch!" What do you think will happen if he does the second one?
>
>Norma
He can audition for a part on South Park? LMFAO!
But we plan to teach him not to say mean things to other people, or about them,
regardless of whether the words are profane, vulgar, or just hurtful (like
saying "you're fat/ugly"). As far as whether he says, sympathetically to a
friend, say, "whoa, that f--king sucks, dude!" I don't mind that at all.
Alan
AlanKngsly
>hot love scene with full frontal nudity?
If it's in a genuinely artistic, high quality film, yes.
>What if you have a little girl?
>Will you go naked in front of her? For how long?
I hadn't really thought much about that, but personal modesty is a different
issue. After all, I watch R-rated movies that have nudity with my mother
and/or sister, but we don't undress in front of each other. My mind tells me
we ought to be less concerned about nudity within the family, as they are in
some other countries, but unfortunately our modesty is already pretty well
ingrained. The other thing I'd be concerned about would be a scenario like in
the film _The Good Mother_ (first place I saw Liam Neeson) where they get in
trouble because Liam's character lets Diane Keaton's daughter see him naked and
they have sex while the daughter is in bed (asleep). I don't want to end up
having CPS on my case due to an innocent comment my daughter makes....
Alan
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
>friend, say, "whoa, that f--king sucks, >dude!" I don't mind that at all.
>Alan
That's disgusting. I know A LOT of people whose kids yours wouldn't be able
to play with, with a mouth like that.
AlanKngsly
>>the only reason it is considered "dirty" is that we live in a culture that
>is
>>far too uptight and prudish.
>
>asshole, etc fall under vulgar; damn, hell, Oh God!, Jesus, even bloody
>(which has obvious roots) are profane.
Fine, but language evolves over time, and the person I responded to was likely
using "profanity" to refer to all of the above, just as many others do.
>Vulgarity comes from the lower
>class
Oh, that dreaded lower class!
>and were used by the uneducated,
In the present day, I know plenty of educated people who swear. My mother is a
university professor, and she has been known to utter a few profanities (and
vulgarities) now and again. And if you are going to avoid every word with a
"lower class" origin, good luck to you! You'd better start shedding all the
Anglo-Saxon words and stick to those used by the French speaking Normans, for
example. Thus, a cow should be referred to as "beef" (or "boeufe") whether
alive or dead, since the word "cow" was used by the lower classes who actually
tended to them in the fields, and the upper class French words were used when
they were served. Same goes for "pig" (pork/porc), "lamb" (mutton/mouton) and
"chicken" (poultry/poulet).
>profanity was used to profane. To
>take something that is sacred, holy or even (in the case of hell or the
>devil) unholy and desecrate it or make it common. To remove the elevation
>inherent in the word.
The elevation is only inherent for those who believe in the religion being
"profaned." I'm an atheist.
>Vulgarity is cheap and crass, while profanity
>actually purposes to offend and treat disrespectfully what others find
>sacred.
Oh no, not buying that. If I say, "Jesus, that hurt!" after I hit my thumb
with a hammer, or "What the hell....?" when something surprises me, I am not
making an effort to offend anyone.
>One is just an ignorant set of words, the other is hate speech.
Oh, please.
Alan
RNR
McGehee" <sgt_m...@thegrid.net> wrote:
Oh, but Sophie, he wouldn't _need_ those people. They are just closed
minded and prudish. He will lead a life where he only has to deal with
people who are like minded as there is no reason for him to have contact
with those "evil" people who would stifle their children's expression.
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
LOL. Too true.
Later, Sophie
tecia
<shm...@email.msn.com> writes
>
>
>Do you mean to say you will allow say, a 3 year old little kid to watch a
>hot love scene with full frontal nudity?
Be interested to hear what Alan has to say, but I would certainly have
*less* problem with allowing my children to watch a sex scene with full
frontal nudity than, say, a scene with violence, racism, or verbal abuse. It
so happens that I choose not to allow my children (who range from 3.5 yr
downwards) to watch anything other than videos made for children, so it
doesn't arise, but I certainly wouldn't curl up in embarrassment or
anything if my child happened to see a love scene. It's a sad world when
we're more shocked that our children might see people expressing love
for each other than seeing people blow each others brains out.
>What if you have a little girl?
>Will you go naked in front of her? For how long?
I think its fine for parents to be naked in front of children for as long as
they are both comfortable with it. If you think about it, what is the
significance of if he had a little girl? Why is it any different him being
naked in front of a little girl than a little boy?
I don't make a conscious effort either way with my kids (male or female).
I do try to shield my son from certain <ahem> exclusively female bodily
functions, more because I think it would upset and concern him than
because I think he would be somehow "corrupted" by it.
>
>I am genuinely curious.
>
>Norma
--
tremor oceans
if I call it abusive, just a parenting thing I wouldnt have the heart to
do I guess
And I really dont like hunting and guns, I am a big sissy girlie mom, I
just grew up thinking guns suck, dosnt mean I think they are wrong for
all families though, just my own.
But I did get the general idea of the post, it was nice, I wouldnt use
those exact examples myself but I got the general drift of it, and it
was a good one. You just gotta be creative and insert your own
examples:)
Julia Ream
tecia <te...@tecia.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m4yokHAw...@tecia.demon.co.uk...
> >What if you have a little girl?
> >Will you go naked in front of her? For how long?
>
> I think its fine for parents to be naked in front of children for as long
as
> they are both comfortable with it. If you think about it, what is the
> significance of if he had a little girl? Why is it any different him
being
> naked in front of a little girl than a little boy?
>
> I don't make a conscious effort either way with my kids (male or female).
> I do try to shield my son from certain <ahem> exclusively female bodily
> functions, more because I think it would upset and concern him than
> because I think he would be somehow "corrupted" by it.
> >
Candy,
I've been trying to think of a way to say what you just said without
sounding "strange" for a few days since this post showed up! Thanks!
I agree with you! If DH and I have a little girl, I'm sure DH will not
think twice about walking around the house naked...I mean, he does it
now...there's nothing wrong with her seeing his body. But then of course,
we are nudists at heart, and really can't wait to take our little baby, no
matter what sex it is down to St. Martin to frolic naked on the beach as a
family.
Take Care,
Julia Ream
--
and "ticker" EDD 08/14/00
shmily
tecia <te...@tecia.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:m4yokHAw...@tecia.demon.co.uk...
> In article <OPsGLj0h$GA.241@cpmsnbbsa02>, shmily
> <shm...@email.msn.com> writes
> >
> >
> >Do you mean to say you will allow say, a 3 year old little kid to watch a
> >hot love scene with full frontal nudity?
>
> Be interested to hear what Alan has to say, but I would certainly have
> *less* problem with allowing my children to watch a sex scene with full
> frontal nudity than, say, a scene with violence, racism, or verbal abuse.
Are you choosing one over the other? It is possible to choose both.
>It
> so happens that I choose not to allow my children (who range from 3.5 yr
> downwards) to watch anything other than videos made for children, so it
> doesn't arise, but I certainly wouldn't curl up in embarrassment or
> anything if my child happened to see a love scene.
Studies have been shown that young children when confronted by a very
blatantly sexual scene in movie theatres, have actually turned there heads
away in embarrassment. I think there is alot of value in teaching a child
that there are certain things in life, while not inherently bad in and of
themselves, that should be introduced when one has built up the maturity in
which to view them. What a child is shown on TV may lead that child to
believe that this is normal and good behaviour that s/he should emulate.
Then what happens when little Susie or Willy goes on a play date only to
suggest playing 'doctor' with the other playfriend? Ack! LOL!!!
Seriously, I do think that there are certain things that children are best
not introduced to until they are at a level of maturity where they are
better able to deal with it. Sexual content is one, violence is another,
IMHO both should be held back until the child is no longer a young child,
perhaps until s/he is much older.
>It's a sad world when
> we're more shocked that our children might see people expressing love
> for each other than seeing people blow each others brains out.
I am not *more* shocked at one rather than the other, I would be shocked at
both. Take the movie "True Lies" with Arnold S. and Jamie Lee Curtis.
It has some awful violence in it. IMHO, this is not good for a child to
see. It also has a very sexual dance performed by Curtis, though not
nude. IMHO, this is not good for my children to see either. Why?
Well, for one I do not want them emulating this, and children do copy what
they see. For another, I think sexuality should not be in their face until
they are sexual creatures themselves (sexual maturity) and also until I
think they have the maturity to see it. I guess some would say I am an old
fuddy duddy, but I am .
>
> >What if you have a little girl?
> >Will you go naked in front of her? For how long?
>
> I think its fine for parents to be naked in front of children for as long
as
> they are both comfortable with it. If you think about it, what is the
> significance of if he had a little girl? Why is it any different him
being
> naked in front of a little girl than a little boy?
Well, I would think a man naked (like changing clothes) with a little boy
sort of falls under "locker room nudity" as in, same sex nudity, which
doesn't seem the same as naked opposite sex people. For instance, I
think it is no big deal if a 12 year old son changes clothes with my DH in
the room, both naked changing clothes, than say a 12 year old daughter.
Call me old fashioned I guess.
>
> I don't make a conscious effort either way with my kids (male or female).
> I do try to shield my son from certain <ahem> exclusively female bodily
> functions, more because I think it would upset and concern him than
> because I think he would be somehow "corrupted" by it.
I answer all questions my sons had during my pregnancy and after. I
remember being in the bathroom attending to things a week after giving birth
when my four year old came charging in on me and saw blood I was cleaning
away. He asked what it was and I told him matter of factly. He wasn't
upset at all. Then again, I wouldn't want my twelve year old son comuing
in on me sitting on the throne naked from the waist down. I am just old
fashioned that way.
N
shmily
>
> Candy,
>
> I've been trying to think of a way to say what you just said without
> sounding "strange" for a few days since this post showed up! Thanks!
>
> I agree with you! If DH and I have a little girl, I'm sure DH will not
> think twice about walking around the house naked...I mean, he does it
> now...there's nothing wrong with her seeing his body. But then of course,
> we are nudists at heart, and really can't wait to take our little baby, no
> matter what sex it is down to St. Martin to frolic naked on the beach as a
> family.
>
Oh well, am I the only prude here? LOL!!!!!! Seriously, I have no
problem with my DH going naked with a really little kid, but when do you
draw the line? When she is 4? 8? 12? When *you* were 12 would you
have wanted to know what your dad's stuff looked like? Not me ....LOL!!!!
Norma :-)
Lee
>As far as whether he says, sympathetically to
> a friend, say, "whoa, that f--king sucks, dude!"
> I don't mind that at all.
Now I am far from a prudish mom, I let my kids make a lot of their own
decisions and try to be very open to their ideas and thoughts, but one
of the things I AM firm about is cursing. Any cursing. I curse, my
husband curses, but my kids know that, just like driving and drinking an
occasional beer, it's something only grown-ups do. Were they to bring
home a little friend who thought nothing of cursing, no matter the
situation, well I am sorry, but the little guy'd have to go and he would
not be allowed back, period. Kids are monkey-see, monkey-do and it
would be a matter of seconds almost before I'd hear cursing out of my
kids mouths as well. Not to mention the fact that curses coming from a
small child are as out of place as hearing them from a nun.
Really, teaching them to curse is doing them a disservice, because
schools do not allow it (even if it is said in a friendly way) and
you'll be having him sent to the principals office all the time over it,
other people (adults) will view him as a vulgar child, and eventually
parents will refuse to allow him to play with their children once their
formally clean-mouthed kid comes home cursing a blue streak. You think
all that is something he will thank you for? You think a six year old
who has just been told he can't go to his best friend's birthday party
because ha has a potty-mouth is gonna think "Oh well, they're just
ignorant because cursing isn't so bad." No, he's gonna come home and
cry on your shoulder and ask you why. And really, why? Because you
thought it'd be cute to have a little sailor running around swearing?
Because you thought it'd be hilarious to have you son's first words be
vulgar? No, I doubt he's going to find it nearly as amusing as you do
now, when he starts being seriously ostracized from his peers because of
his potty mouth that daddy thinks is so cute.
Lee
(Mommy to Genevieve Caroline 6-2-00, Mercedes Raeanne 2-9-96, Amber
Denise 4-4-93 and step-mommy to D'Wayne Allen 6-30-89)
Personal quotes:
" Nothing is fool-proof for a talented fool. "
" Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
Come and read my pregnancy journal, new entries every week! Click the
link below!
http://community.webtv.net/louisal/main
See some pictures of me and my family, click below!
http://community.webtv.net/louisal/TheFamily
Larry McMahan
: > >
: >
: > Candy,
: >
: > I've been trying to think of a way to say what you just said without
: > sounding "strange" for a few days since this post showed up! Thanks!
: >
: > I agree with you! If DH and I have a little girl, I'm sure DH will not
: > think twice about walking around the house naked...I mean, he does it
: > now...there's nothing wrong with her seeing his body. But then of course,
: > we are nudists at heart, and really can't wait to take our little baby, no
: > matter what sex it is down to St. Martin to frolic naked on the beach as a
: > family.
: >
: Oh well, am I the only prude here? LOL!!!!!! Seriously, I have no
Well, maybe not the ONLY one, but I hope in the minority!
: problem with my DH going naked with a really little kid, but when do you
: draw the line? When she is 4? 8? 12?
Kids are naturally modest. Especially when their bodies start to change.
I think a good time to start covering up when around your child is when
the child stops walking around naked around you. If I remember from my
first, it was around 10 or 11.
: Norma :-)
Larry
Lee
>Then what happens when little Susie or Willy
> goes on a play date only to suggest playing
> 'doctor' with the other playfriend? Ack!
> LOL!!!
Ummm..then they're normal?? LOL Playing doctor is perfectly normal,
every kid does it at some point, whether it's by themselves, with a
little friend or whatever. And they have been doing it long before sexy
movies were ever invented so I don't think them seeing a love scene is
gonna affect whether or not they have a healthy sexual curiosity.
My oldest (7) walked in on me and DH once during the, ahem, act. She
wasn't embaressed nor did she look away in shame, she kind of cocked her
head to one side, looked curious for a second, then was shooed gently
out the door. Later we explained to her what we were doing, why it was
private, and now she knows to always knock before entering another
person's bedroom. The main point was that we did not make a big deal of
it either way and so she just filed the info as she would any other new
thing and gave it little more thought.
My 4 year old last year went through a small "I love having my hand in
my panties" phase which, while completely normal, was a bit embarassing
a times. Again, we did not make a big production of it, just would
calmly remove her hand from her panties if we were in public or
something, and after a few weeks she learned that putting your hand in
your panties is not something you do everywhere. She was not made to
feel like it was dirty or wrong, after all, she was only exploring her
own body, but she did learn that even thought it's not bad, there is a
time and place for it and grandma's dinner table is not one of them!
LOL
I think sex in movies is not something one would encourage a child to
watch, I hope Alan didn't mean that, I think maybe he just meant that
while he isn't going to be sitting the kid down with porno's, he also
isn't going to flip out if the kid happens to see a sex scene in an
otherwise decent movie. Which is a healthy attitude I think, as kids
take their cues from the parents, if we freak out because they caught a
glimpse of Winona Ryder's nipple, then they are going to equate
nipple=bad and develop an unhealthy, dirty image of sex and the human
body.
Of course, this from the woman who isn't so much concerned that my three
girls wait till they are married to have sex or even 18 to have sex, I
just want them to wait for love to have sex.
Blessings,
RNR
<te...@tecia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <OPsGLj0h$GA.241@cpmsnbbsa02>, shmily
><shm...@email.msn.com> writes
>>
>>
>>Do you mean to say you will allow say, a 3 year old little kid to watch a
>>hot love scene with full frontal nudity?
>
>Be interested to hear what Alan has to say, but I would certainly have
>*less* problem with allowing my children to watch a sex scene with full
>frontal nudity than, say, a scene with violence, racism, or verbal abuse. It
>so happens that I choose not to allow my children (who range from 3.5 yr
>downwards) to watch anything other than videos made for children, so it
>doesn't arise, but I certainly wouldn't curl up in embarrassment or
>anything if my child happened to see a love scene. It's a sad world when
>we're more shocked that our children might see people expressing love
>for each other than seeing people blow each others brains out.
I'm sort of with you, in that I don't think sexuality is _worse_ than
violence. However, I don't believe in pre-maturely sexualizing children.
I don't think they need to be exposed to sexuality (aside from
information, basic names and words for parts, where babies come from, etc)
when they aren't old enough or even physically mature enough for sex
themselves. Since we have boys, I especially don't want to overload them
with visual sexual stimuli, as they are more visual anyway, and it is a
powerful image as a young man, to see women portrayed as sex objects.
tecia
<shm...@email.msn.com> writes
>
>
>Oh well, am I the only prude here? LOL!!!!!! Seriously, I have no
>have wanted to know what your dad's stuff looked like? Not me ....LOL!!!!
>
>Norma :-)
Norma, there's nothing wrong with being a "prude". If you (or your DH)
don't feel comfortable being naked in front of your kids, then don't. The
only objection I would have to what you were saying is that there is
something *wrong* with people who don't mind.
As for me and my father, I would say that I don't remember seeing him
naked much after I was around 9 or 10. And I know that he stopped
seeing me naked from when I hit puberty (about 11-12) when it was clear
that I was becoming self-conscious, and he respected that entirely.
I suppose (maybe because of that) that I would draw the line at puberty.
Unless your (one's) DH is a pedophile, I can see no reason why before
that, there is any reason for either side to be self-conscious or feel that it
is wrong.
tecia
urn.bbn.com>, RNR <am...@teleport.com> writes
>I'm sort of with you, in that I don't think sexuality is _worse_ than
>violence.
Or even close.
>However, I don't believe in pre-maturely sexualizing children.
>I don't think they need to be exposed to sexuality (aside from
>information, basic names and words for parts, where babies come from, etc)
>when they aren't old enough or even physically mature enough for sex
>themselves. Since we have boys, I especially don't want to overload them
>with visual sexual stimuli, as they are more visual anyway, and it is a
>powerful image as a young man, to see women portrayed as sex objects.
Agreed entirely.
AlanKngsly
>Oh well, am I the only prude here? LOL!!!!!! Seriously, I have no
>problem with my DH going naked with a really little kid, but when do you
>draw the line? When she is 4? 8? 12? When *you* were 12 would you
>have wanted to know what your dad's stuff looked like? Not me ....LOL!!!!
>
>Norma :-)
I know Europeans and Scandinavians who are casual about family nudity at any
age, even once the children are fully grown.
Alan
AlanKngsly
>> goes on a play date only to suggest playing
>> LOL!!!
>
>Ummm..then they're normal?? LOL Playing doctor is perfectly normal,
>every kid does it at some point,
>I think sex in movies is not something one would encourage a child to
>watch, I hope Alan didn't mean that, I think maybe he just meant that
>while he isn't going to be sitting the kid down with porno's, he also
>isn't going to flip out if the kid happens to see a sex scene in an
>otherwise decent movie.
Yes, that's it exactly. I am very picky in terms of what films I watch--so if
our children see a love scene, it's going to be in something like _High Art_ or
_La Double Vie de Veronique_ (The Double Life of Veronique) rather than, say,
_Porky's_.
>Which is a healthy attitude I think, as kids
>take their cues from the parents, if we freak out because they caught a
>glimpse of Winona Ryder's nipple, then they are going to equate
>nipple=3Dbad and develop an unhealthy, dirty image of sex and the human
>body.
Agreed.
>Of course, this from the woman who isn't so much concerned that my three
>girls wait till they are married to have sex or even 18 to have sex, I
>just want them to wait for love to have sex.
Agreed on that one as well--although I think it's unrealistic to expect
someone's first sex partner to be someone they love. My more reasonable hope
would be that it will be with someone who doesn't hurt them too badly or make
them feel that sex is a degrading act.
Alan
AlanKngsly
>> a friend, say, "whoa, that f--king sucks, dude!"
>> I don't mind that at all.
>
>Now I am far from a prudish mom, I let my kids make a lot of their own
>decisions and try to be very open to their ideas and thoughts, but one
>of the things I AM firm about is cursing. Any cursing. I curse, my
>husband curses, but my kids know that, just like driving and drinking an
>occasional beer, it's something only grown-ups do.
You're joking, right?
>Were they to bring
>home a little friend who thought nothing of cursing, no matter the
>situation, well I am sorry, but the little guy'd have to go and he would
>not be allowed back, period. Kids are monkey-see, monkey-do and it
>would be a matter of seconds almost before I'd hear cursing out of my
>kids mouths as well.
So all it will take is one kid at school cursing and the cat's out of the bag
anyway. Then why should I bother trying to shield my children from these
words?
>Not to mention the fact that curses coming from a
>small child are as out of place as hearing them from a nun.
What kind of small children do you know? How small are you talking about?
Seems to me once they hit seven or eight most kids know, and use, all the swear
words.
>Really, teaching them to curse is doing them a disservice,
I'm not going to teach them to curse ("Today's lesson, children, is on the word
"f--k"), I'm just not going to discourage them.
>because
>schools do not allow it (even if it is said in a friendly way) and
>you'll be having him sent to the principals office all the time over it,
Then they'll probably get the message, won't they? I'm not going to teach my
kids to raise their hand before asking a question, either....but I imagine they
will learn it on their own from the teacher's feedback. Why would this be any
different? Are you saying my children will be stupid automatons who cannot
learn from negative reinforcement?
>You think a six year old
>who has just been told he can't go to his best friend's birthday party
>because ha has a potty-mouth is gonna think "Oh well, they're just
>ignorant because cursing isn't so bad." No, he's gonna come home and
>cry on your shoulder and ask you why.
Fact is, I'm going to teach my children lots of things that run counter to the
mainstream:
--that our capitalist society is based on greed and oppression;
--that our school system teaches a bogus version of history to make the U.S. of
A. look like a great, noble nation instead of a state which lacks justice for
many (most, for the majority of its history) of its own people and inflicts
terror on other people around the world who get in the way of its imperialist
aims;
--that we consume an absurdly disproportionate amount of the world's energy and
other resources, and live high on the hog off of the near slave labor of Third
World denizens;
etc.
Considering that we live in a conservative area, I have already resigned myself
to the fact that my children are probably going to say things that challenge
the status quo and thus cause other people in the community to ostracize them.
But I'm not going to compromise my beliefs in an attempt to make my kids more
"normal" so they can "fit in" or whatever.
Alan
Terrie
around the
>house, or at least tries not too. I'm not a swearer myself.
it still
>surprises me when my husband swears around his mom, she
apparently didn't
>teach him when it was appropriate or not. I think it's really
>disrespectful. Call me old-fashioned too.
>
>Later, Sophie
>mom to Charlotte (20 months) and Patrick (3 months)
>
>
>
>
teens and trying to be "cool". I would never swear in front of
my parents, out of respect for them. My father will even go so
far as to politely remind people that swear too much around my
mother that they are in the presence of a lady and he would
appreciate it if they didn't use that sort of language. My
mother has been a secretary at the same elementary school for 25
years, and she has actually had to ask the teachers to stop
using the "F" word in the office.
My DH swears in front of his mother, but she uses the "f" word
also. He doesn't in front of mine, because he has respect for
them.
I have found that "doggoneit" works really well for me. I also
prefer "be quite", "hush" or "shush" to "shut up".
For me it is all just a matter of respect. I guess I'm old-
fashioned as well.
Terrie
EDD 4/23/00 with #3
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The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Terrie
<ki...@kimberly.net> wrote:
>Of course, if you take everything completely and utterly
literal.
>Geeeeeeeeez.
>
>Yes, I'm sure it IS a "conservative" view. But you know what?
What I got
>out of it is today's kids are so incredibly spoiled, etc. with
things that
>we adults now think are "necessary." A room of their own, a
carpool ride to
>school 2 miles away in a BMW, your mom spending 2 seconds to
buy a plastic
>halloween costume instead of "making up" one with her child,
your dad
>working 60+ hours a week, so instead of helping your practice
your swing for
>little league, he buys you "the best and most expensive" bat,
glove, ball,
>etc..........
>
>THIS is what *I* got from it. (not yelling, just
accentuating--->) SPEND
>TIME WITH YOUR KIDS, DON'T BUY THEM EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD,
HAVE THEM WORK
>FOR THINGS THEY WANT, RESPECT YOUR ELDERS - SMELL THE ROSES
INSTEAD OF THE
>$500/OUNCE PERFUME. If that's child abuse, then I guess social
services
>needs to be called.
>
>So if you want to take little bits and pieces as literal things
(i.e., ivory
>soap in the mouth), thereby missing the entire message, that's
your
>perogotive.
>
>--
>
>....kimberly.
>Mom to Peyton Cole (22 mo.) and #2 Pokemon (Mar. 20, 37 and 6
now!)
>Meet Peyton at http://www.kimberly.net!
>
>
>
Very well put, Kimberly!!
Tracy Cramer
lou...@webtv.net (Lee) wrote:
>Now I am far from a prudish mom, I let my kids make a lot of
their own
>decisions and try to be very open to their ideas and thoughts,
but one
>of the things I AM firm about is cursing. Any cursing. I
curse, my
>husband curses, but my kids know that, just like driving and
drinking an
>occasional beer, it's something only grown-ups do.
We're pretty much the same way. Our feeling is that there are
certainly rights and priviledges you earn when you turn into an
adult.
I'm not going to kid myself that my children don't know curse
words. The oldest (10) knows them quite well, judging from the
times that he's let them slip. However, I don't want to hear it
from them. Our rule is if you need to curse, you have to go to
your bedroom and shut the door* and then you can say anything
you want.
We've also tried to teach them that there is a time and a place
for using certain words. I expect them to watch their language
in public.
Tracy
*murphy's law of typing...the phrase "shut the door" was "shit
the door" until I re-read it.
Terrie
>What kind of small children do you know? How small are you
talking about?
>Seems to me once they hit seven or eight most kids know, and
use, all the swear
>words.
>
I don't know where you live, but it is not the norm around here
for kids to know and use all the swear words by the age of 7 or
8. Maybe the "really bad" kids start that young, the rest start
to experiment around their friends in the early teen years. My
8 year old thinks that "crap" is a bad word. He knows it isn't
a curse word, it's just not nice.
Terrie
EDD 4/23/00 with #3
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Hillary Israeli
shmily <shm...@email.msn.com> wrote:
*
*Studies have been shown that young children when confronted by a very
*blatantly sexual scene in movie theatres, have actually turned there heads
*away in embarrassment. I think there is alot of value in teaching a child
Interesting. Were these american kids? How old? I wonder if they did any
comparisons with kids from other cultures? Do you have a journal
citation? I can't find it in the psychology database.
--
hillary israeli http://www.hillary.net in...@hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
upenn school of vet med class of 2000
Terrie
lou...@webtv.net (Lee) wrote:
>Norma wrote:
>>Then what happens when little Susie or Willy
>> goes on a play date only to suggest playing
>> LOL!!!
>
>Ummm..then they're normal?? LOL Playing doctor is perfectly
normal,
with a
>little friend or whatever.
>
"normal" part of growing up, but I disagree. We were taught,
and have taught our children, that there are certain parts of
your body that other people don't see or touch (except parents
and doctros in appropriate ways). We never "played doctor"
growing up and my children haven't either. I am modest, maybe
even prudish, but I am so happy that I was raised the way I
was. My body is sacred, and not something that I share with
everyone. I have way too much respect for myself to walk around
nude for anyone to see other than my DH.
Lynne Murnane
alank...@aol.com (AlanKngsly) wrote:
>Fact is, I'm going to teach my children lots of things that run
counter to the
>mainstream:
>
>--that our capitalist society is based on greed and oppression;
>
like North Korea and China aren't exactly garden spots, and for a
reason. Ever spend any time in a police state? Or a country
that's fighting a war? You watch your step and your mouth big
time. Unfortunately, people have an infinite variety of ways to
oppress and mistreat each other.
>--that we consume an absurdly disproportionate amount of the
world's energy and
>other resources, and live high on the hog off of the near slave
labor of Third
>World denizens;
We do, and it's disturbing. Do you live on a farm and grow your
own vegetables? Or do you rent/own a home and have a car and
modern conveniences, take trips, etc?
Lynne
Marie
words, say it where no one else can hear it. They do
say dammit, like when they hurt themselves, but they do
know not to say these words around anyone else.
I guess everyone feels differently about cursing and
it's the same as with potty training,
breastfeeding/formula feeding, woh/sah,.... Everyone
has different opinions about it and I think it's silly
to fight about cursing when there are more important
issues.
When I was small, I was beat with a belt for saying
crap. I had heard my 6th grade TEACHER say it and I
repeated it at home and my mom beat me. I didn't even
know what it meant.
Anyway, I think it's stupid to make a big deal about
curse words. Kids learn when not to say them. Mine know
not to say them outside our home, and not to say them
at anyone. They don't use them much, when they have,
it's when they hurt themselves.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
Tracy Cramer wrote in message
<08ebb166...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com>...
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
here
>for kids to know and use all the swear >words by the age of 7 or
>8.
I think Alan watches too much South Park. Lol.
Later,Sophie
mom to Charlotte (20 months) and Patrick (4 months tomorrow)
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
be a
>"normal" part of growing up, but I >disagree
I'm with you. I don't ever remember doing this (and my parents have never
told me I did).
It sort of goes along with not making our daughter kiss people, even
grandparents if she doesn't want to. I just think if we tell her to when
she doesn't want to, it must confuse children about what's appropriate
touching, etc..I hate to see parents making their children kiss (kissing
them goodbye or goodnight) friends or relatives when the child clearly
doesn't want to.
Later, Sophie
loriann
imcoo...@aol.comgetaway (Melanie Casey) wrote:
>Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind attempting to express
itself
>forcefully.
That's a convenient little idiom, however it's not true to life.
Ever have dinner or cocktails with any super-intelligent
people? Ever go to a movie or Broadway play? Take my advice,
don't. Keep your kids in a "moral kiosk". Protect them from
reality at all costs.
lori
loriann
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee <sgt_m...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:Erux4.10342$84.10...@alfalfa.thegrid.net...
> Terrie said: >I know that all of the >"experts" consider playing doctor
to
> be a
> >"normal" part of growing up, but I >disagree
>
> I'm with you. I don't ever remember doing this (and my parents have never
> told me I did).
If it's any consolation, that doesn't make you abnormal. There are a myriad
of child behaviors and experiences that fall within the realm of 'normal'
and playing doctor is one of them. That doesn't mean that every normal
child does it, nor does it mean anything, really, except that *some* normal
kids do. Not too tough, really.
lori
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
or whatever else is considered normal.
Later, Sophie
Julia Ream
> I suppose (maybe because of that) that I would draw the line at puberty.
> Unless your (one's) DH is a pedophile, I can see no reason why before
> that, there is any reason for either side to be self-conscious or feel
that it
> is wrong.
>
Candy,
I think that your reasoning makes sense here...however, why would it be
considered 'wrong' for a adolescent boy or girl to see their opposite sex
parent in the nude? I mean, just because the parent is in the nude, doesn't
mean that they are having lude thoughts. I've seen pubescent kids that felt
completely comfortable naked around other naked people including their
parents, and I've seen some that were uncomfortable and wore bathing suits,
or bathing suit bottoms (at that beach, that is). I always figured it was
one of those things, if the kid is feeling uncomfortable with their own
bodies changes, then of course, they need not frolic around naked...but why
would they suddenly be uncomfortable seeing their own parents naked?
But then, maybe I'm just being unrealistic...but I want my child to be
comfortable with their own body, as well as other peoples...and on top of it
all, I want them to NOT think of sex when they see a naked body...I think
that's just as bad as thinking breastfeeding is gross because it's a baby
sucking on a sexual organ.
I guess I will find out over the next 15-18 years whether my theory works!
Will we all still be here chatting away? Hmmm...
Barbara MacRae
Terrie <tlcarter...@juno.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>I know that all of the "experts" consider playing doctor to be a
>and have taught our children, that there are certain parts of
>your body that other people don't see or touch (except parents
>and doctros in appropriate ways). We never "played doctor"
>growing up and my children haven't either. I am modest, maybe
>even prudish, but I am so happy that I was raised the way I
>was. My body is sacred, and not something that I share with
>everyone. I have way too much respect for myself to walk around
>nude for anyone to see other than my DH.
I hope you're not implying that people who don't share
your sense of "modesty" do not respect themselves.
I go to nude beaches, hang out naked in the hot tub with
my friends, and shower with my kids. I won't tell people
who *don't* do that stuff that they're hung up prudes, but
they better not try to imply anything about ME because I
do it.
-Barb, VERY self-respecting mama to Olivia, 6, & Ruby, 1.5
loriann
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee said:
> Thanks Lori. Uumm, I didn't think I "was" abnormal for not playing doctor
> or whatever else is considered normal.
Good for you.
You two seemed to agree that because you didn't play doctor, it therefore
isn't normal. Your presumption that every child who did or does engage in
this behavior is abnormal is, ummm, preposterous.
---------------------
Terrie said: I know that all of the "experts" consider playing doctor to
be a "normal" part of growing up, but I disagree
Sophie said: I'm with you. I don't ever remember doing this (and my
parents have never
told me I did).
lori
Terrie
$u8.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "loriann"
<swtw...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>Good for you.
>
>You two seemed to agree that because you didn't play doctor, it
therefore
>isn't normal. Your presumption that every child who did or
does engage in
>this behavior is abnormal is, ummm, preposterous.
>
>
>
Personally, I don't think that it should be considered "normal"
and "appropriate" for children to do this sort of thing. That's
just my prude opinion.
Terrie
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee
Lee
>I don't know where you live, but it is not the
> norm around here for kids to know and use all
> the swear words by the age of 7 or
> the rest start to experiment around their
> friends in the early teen years. My 8 year old
> thinks that "crap" is a bad word. He knows it
> isn't a curse word, it's just not nice.
I have to agree with Terrie here, Alan. My oldest is seven and gets
shocked when her best friend said shut-up! Now, Amber may *know* the
words, she hears them from me and her dad on occasion, but she certainly
doesn't use them, as you said most 7 or 8 year olds do. Then again,
Amber always has been the little lady, very prim and proper and
frou-frou..so that may have something to do with it, I daresay we'll
have more trouble with the 4 year old soon who is such a little tomboy
and quite rough and tumble that I can see her cursing a blue streak if
we let her.
But back to 7 and 8 year olds using curse words as you suggested, I live
in DC, rather a melting pot, and even here it is the vulgar little
ghetto and trailer-park rugrats who do the cursing at such an age..I'd
say 80-90% of children I've met out here are very well-mannered, a lot
of old-school Jamaican and Cuban parents and grandparents who simply
won't stand for disrespect or vulgariy out of a child's mouth.
One can accomplish both at the same time you know, be firm and demand
respect and decent manners from a child without breaking their spirit
and natural curiosity and imagination. I do it quite well myself, thank
you. Boisterous, full of boundless curiosity and endless imagination,
that's my girls, but take them to a public place, like the museum or an
art gallery or to Grandma's house for tea, and you have perfectly
well-behaved, respectful, yet still curious and happy children.
Manners, basic manners, is something lots of people are just too lazy to
teach children these days. And that includes not using vulgar language.
A 6 year old who uses the word f*ck does not inspire me to think "Oh,
how refreshing, his parents must be real free-spirits and
non-traditionalists." it inspires me to think "Poor kid, his parents are
quite obviously too lazy and uneducated to teach him proper behavior."
shmily
Norma
--
"It is no small thing
when they who are
so fresh from God
love us"
Sgt. Dylan W. McGehee <sgt_m...@thegrid.net> wrote in message
news:5ECx4.10419$84.10...@alfalfa.thegrid.net...
shmily
> >--that we consume an absurdly disproportionate amount of the world's
energy
> >and
> >other resources, and live high on the hog off of the near slave labor of
> >Third
> >World denizens;
>
job do
> you have? Do you farm your own land, grow your own food? Do you have an
> electric car, horse and carriage, or do you ride your bike most
everywhere?
> Have you done a lot of work in thrid world countries? Will you be moving
to one
> of them soon?
>
> I hope that you will practice what you preach, otherwise you will come
off to
> your child and the rest of us as a silly hypocrite who is at the tip of
> thinking about serious issues, but unable to see them with any sort of
true
> clarity.
>
>
>
>
> ---Melanie Casey---
Perhaps Alan thinks we should all apologize for living in a country whose
gov't knows how to run it well, rather than a third world country so corrupt
that it can't even pick itself up despite billions in annual aid? Mayhaps
we should all bow our heads in shame and go live in grass huts with no
electricity or running water...
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Norma :-)
Melanie Casey
>In article <20000306004158...@ng-cq1.aol.com>,
>imcoo...@aol.comgetaway (Melanie Casey) wrote:
>
>>Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind attempting to express
>itself
>>forcefully.
>
>That's a convenient little idiom, however it's not true to life.
Hmmm. I've found it to be quite true to life. Does not necessarily mean the the
person swearing is of *complete* feeble mind, but the mind was certianly feeble
at the time of the obscenity.....otherwise a more creative approach would've
been used :) I personally find those who curse often to be quite tedious to be
around, and I try to avoid them at all costs.
---Melanie Casey---
Melanie Casey
>>friend, say, "whoa, that f--king sucks, >dude!" I don't mind that at all.
>
>
>That's disgusting. I know A LOT of people whose kids yours wouldn't be able
>to play with, with a mouth like that.
>
>
Agreed. You will do your child a great disservice if you encourage that type of
language. Vulgar language may be acceptable in your mind, but it is not going
to help him with his peers or superiors in the place that most of us call
reality.
---Melanie Casey---
Melanie Casey
>the
>mainstream:
>
>--that our capitalist society is based on greed and oppression;
Great. When will you be moving to a different society and taking your kids with
you?
>--that our school system teaches a bogus version of history to make the U.S.
>of
>A. look like a great, noble nation instead of a state which lacks justice for
I hope you will be home schooling then? Will you be sharing your lessons plans
here?
M.Z.
shmily <shm...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:esihKzZi$GA.203@cpmsnbbsa04...
>
>
> Perhaps Alan thinks we should all apologize for living in a country whose
> gov't knows how to run it well, rather than a third world country so
corrupt
> that it can't even pick itself up despite billions in annual aid?
Mayhaps
> we should all bow our heads in shame and go live in grass huts with no
> electricity or running water...
> LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Norma :-)
>
that a little insulting. Maybe you believe that your government knows how
to run itself well but many people would disagree with the US foreign
policy. I left the US and am planning to go live next year in a 'third
world country' whatever that may be and haven't seen any grass huts or
houses left without running water there : ).
The US has done its fair share in ruining societies, its not something to
be proud of. You who love children so much should understand that when your
country bombs Iraqi elementary schools killing 4 children, shoots down an
Iranian passenger plane killing 290 people, 75 of them children, perfecting
knowing that the plane was carrying civilians and not a military plane (and
yes, your tax dollars paid for this : ( ), helps to support Sadam Hussein in
one war where millions of children who were forced to fight lost their
lives, kicks the democratically elected leader out of a country in order to
put back a 'US friendly' dictator, and financially supported the Taliban in
Afghanistan, well that there are some problems with the way your country
runs itself. The US also has, I believe, the highest murder and rape rate
in the world besides South Africa.
Alan was (I believe) suggesting a less capitalistic system, not to turn the
US into a third world country, Germany is far from a third world country and
we do not have a purely capitalistic system. I find it healthy and mature
that he is able to live in a place, enjoy it, but still see the faults that
his country has because every country in this world has problems (including
'first world nations') and the
only way this world can grow is if we recognize these problems, and
understand them and fight against them.
best wishes : )
Megan
Köln, Germany
AlanKngsly
writes:
> In article <20000306175934...@ng-dc1.aol.com>,
> alank...@aol.com (AlanKngsly) wrote:
>
> >>profanity was used to profane. To
> >>take something that is sacred, holy or even (in the case of hell or the
> >>devil) unholy and desecrate it or make it common. To remove the elevation
> >>inherent in the word.
> >
> >The elevation is only inherent for those who believe in the religion being
> >"profaned." I'm an atheist.
>
> However, it is of value and a matter of respect to those who do
> believe. The offense is in the eye of the offended not the offender. If
> I call you a nasty name about atheism or liberalism or whatever, that is
> attacking you, whether I am an atheist or not.
But if you say, "oh, atheism!" when you stub your toe, do you really think I'm
going to care?
> >>Vulgarity is cheap and crass, while profanity
> >>actually purposes to offend and treat disrespectfully what others find
> >>sacred.
> >
> >Oh no, not buying that. If I say, "Jesus, that hurt!" after I hit my thumb
> >with a hammer, or "What the hell....?" when something surprises me, I am
> not
> >making an effort to offend anyone.
>
> Well, it may not take any effort on your part, but you are offending
> others.
Oh, but just above, Renee, you said "profanity actually purposes to offend."
Can't have it both ways....
> My response is to call on someone you know. If you don't believe
> in Jesus, God, hell, whatever, why invoke them?
I suppose it *is* silly....but it's just part of our culture, and a fairly
secular part at that, strange as it may seem.
> >>One is just an ignorant set of words, the other is hate speech.
> >
> >Oh, please.
>
> Really? When you profane something, you are attacking it. You are
> belittling it and devaluing it.
No, it's just an expression, at least for me. Where's the hate? Don't I have
to be *feeling* hate toward some group when I say the "profane" words in order
for it to be hate speech?
Alan
AlanKngsly
>in DC, rather a melting pot, and even here it is the vulgar little
>ghetto and trailer-park rugrats who do the cursing at such an age..
I'd much rather my children learn curse words than learn such a remarkably
prejudiced attitude! I'm actually surprised you are so open about your
prejudices....most people in a forum like this would keep them under their hat.
Alan
AlanKngsly
>counter to the
>>mainstream:
>>
>>--that our capitalist society is based on greed and oppression;
>>
>like North Korea and China aren't exactly garden spots, and for a
>reason. Ever spend any time in a police state?
I spent time in the Soviet Union when it was led by Gorbachev, and I really
liked it. I still think they made a big mistake getting rid of him--his
programs combined the good aspects of socialism with the good parts of liberal
democracies, bringing civil liberties to that nation without capitalist
profiteering. But they're really screwed now. :( Also, my mother recently
took a trip to Cuba and came back with glowing reports on what kind of society
they have built, in spite of the American blockade. Neither of those, though,
is a police state. Now, if you are black and live in Giuliani's New York City,
you are living in a police state!
>Or a country
>that's fighting a war?
Oh yeah....remember the Gulf War? I remember rednecks screaming at me and my
friends when we marched against the war--and the police didn't look terribly
inclined to protect us. Pretty scary, all right....
>You watch your step and your mouth big
>time. Unfortunately, people have an infinite variety of ways to
>oppress and mistreat each other.
They sure do, and they've perfected many of them in the U.S. of A.
>>--that we consume an absurdly disproportionate amount of the
>world's energy and
>>other resources, and live high on the hog off of the near slave
>labor of Third
>>World denizens;
>
>We do, and it's disturbing. Do you live on a farm and grow your
>own vegetables?
No, and I don't advocate that for everyone (though I wish we had room for
vegetables--my stepfather grows all his own organic vegetables and they are
delicious). I am a leftist, but not a Maoist. We do buy organic vegetables
from local growers and keep current on what companies are being boycotted in
the leftist community for mistreatment of workers and the like.
>Or do you rent/own a home and have a car and
>modern conveniences, take trips, etc?
People had those things in the Soviet Union, and as I said I see that as a
better model than, say, the Khmer Rouge. But I certainly would support a big
change in our transportation system, starting with a big hike in gas taxes (fat
chance, I know) that would pay for a much more comprehensive public
transportation system. And if we can ever afford it, I would love to build a
house that is totally heated and powered by solar energy (passive and active)
and wind. I also, unlike most of my left wing friends, support the expansion
of nuclear power--but not in private hands: it should be run by the government
with massively redundant safety systems. If nuclear energy is used safely, it
is much cleaner and gentler on the environment than are coal or oil power
plants. And the electricity produced could be used to power electric cars,
buses, and trains as well.
Oh, and I own a store whose purpose is, in part, to educate people on these
issues: I sell left wing books, magazines, posters, and bumper stickers, as
well as providing free information on left wing organizations in the area (few
though they are) as well as sources of organic foods and other "green"
products.
Alan