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How to turn down Amway nicely?

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Michael Clark

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Dec 12, 1994, 6:19:51 AM12/12/94
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I have been approached 5+ times for Amway over the past several years. I have
sat through the spiels, the videos, listened to the casettes, looked hard
through the catalog, and come to the conclusion that it is not for me. I
don't have the personality of "changing someone's buying habits". So last
night when a friend from high school (8 years ago) called and asked if I
wanted to be a part of a "business venture", I knew what was coming. I asked
if the "venture" was Amway, he sounded shocked and said yes (They always sound
shocked when you flat out ask them if it is Amway). Then I had to spend 5
more minutes explaining why Amway is not for me. Is there a better way to
turn people down?

I do computer consulting and have sent out various forms of advertising over
the years. Last year some guy called me based on my computer ad and asked if
I was interested in a business venture. I asked if it was Amway, and it
wasn't. I went to his house to talk, and it was another MLM, Interior Design
Marketing (?), some ... You know the rest.

My question I now ask is "Is this Amway, or any other form of a network
distribution business?". Is there another question that would be more
inclusive?

Thanks, Michael Clark
Good Morning Consulting
Blacksburg, Virginia

Gary Fritz

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Dec 12, 1994, 12:21:12 PM12/12/94
to
In article <mclark.13...@bev.net>, mcl...@bev.net (Michael Clark) wrote:
> if the "venture" was Amway, he sounded shocked and said yes (They always sound
> shocked when you flat out ask them if it is Amway). Then I had to spend 5
> more minutes explaining why Amway is not for me. Is there a better way to
> turn people down?

No, other than I don't think you're obligated to spend 5 minutes justifying
your decision. Just say "No thanks, I've looked at it several times already.
I wish you good luck in it, but it is NOT for me." End of conversation.
If the person is rude enough to refuse to listen to you, or to tell you
you're wrong, you can decide how you want to handle it.

> My question I now ask is "Is this Amway, or any other form of a network
> distribution business?". Is there another question that would be more
> inclusive?

That would seem to cover it. If someone weasels around that very direct
question and says it isn't, then proceeds to show you an MLM business,
I would say "Even if I wanted to do something like this, I would never
work with someone who started our business relationship by lying to me."

I've been very actively involved in MLM for several years, BTW. I think
MLM can be a great opportunity for people *if* they choose to do it.
But I also think this dishonest subterfuge approach is the worst
black eye on the whole industry. I wish people would be honest and
up-front with the people they contact. I'm not saying they have to
call and ask "Hi, wanna do Amway with me?" -- but if someone *asks*,
then they are required (by ethics and usually by company rules) to
reply honestly.

Gary

American Supply Int'l Inc.

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Dec 12, 1994, 5:33:08 PM12/12/94
to
Michael Clark (mcl...@bev.net) wrote:
: <stuff deleted...>
: shocked when you flat out ask them if it is Amway). Then I had to spend 5
: more minutes explaining why Amway is not for me. Is there a better way to
: turn people down?

Michael: I've been approached countless times by family, friends,
acquaintances, friends of friends, and outright strangers to get involved
in some sort of network marketing. The line I use is the truth: "I'm not
interested in network marketing". Period. End of subject.

Know what works better than MLM? Is much more rewarding and takes a
minimal amount of money to start? Contrary to what the MLM'ers will
tell you, you CAN own and operate your own profitable business in today's
business climate. No, I'm not selling a business -- I'm promoting
entrepreneurship. There are easy ways to find the right business and
paths around almost every obstacle, and I'd be happy to share our
experiences publicly - in the newsgroup and for FREE -- to anyone who
asks.

Regards, Steve


Jerry Loyd

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Dec 12, 1994, 7:30:34 PM12/12/94
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In article <mclark.13...@bev.net> mcl...@bev.net (Michael Clark) writes:
>From: mcl...@bev.net (Michael Clark)
>Subject: How to turn down Amway nicely?
>Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 11:19:51

I never felt that I *needed* to be nice. You, however, are a consultant, and
they are all potential customers. So, just say no, and then ask them if
they'd like to buy some of your services.


___ ___ _
| |___ _ _ _ _ _ _ | | ___ _ _ _| |
\| / -_) '_| '_| || | | |_/ - \ || |/_` | Jerry...@hpboi1.desk.hp.com
\___\___|_| |_| \_, | |___\_ _/\_, |\_,_|
|__/ |__/

Jonathan Cyr

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Dec 13, 1994, 2:03:49 AM12/13/94
to

Michael,

I think I can help you with your question. I am a distributor for
Quorum, another of those "hiss" MLM's. The quickest way to become
unattractive to MLM'ers, is to simply agree to review the material, get
back to your friend, and simply tell him that you don't see yourself in
business for yourself, or that you're perfectly content with what you're
doing, and dont want to start from scratch in a new business.

If you cant honestly say something to this effect, then you are in need
of an opportunity and will be contacted and contacted forever.

Lastly, remember, most Network Marketers want to surround themselves with
winners, leaders, or simply nice people to work with. You should be
flattered that these people thought enough of you to ask you to see their
opportunity.

I hope that helps,

Jonathan Cyr
Warwick, RI

***************************************************** Quorum International
* Cyr & Associates - Jonathan Cyr - Chuck Cyr * Independent Distributors
* 20 Lane Two, Gaspee Point - Warwick, RI 02888 USA * InfoLine: (800) 326-2963
* (401) 463-5026 Tel - (401) 463-1877 Fax * Quorum Rhode Island
* EMail cy...@conan.ids.net * Contact
*****************************************************

Gregory Owens

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Dec 13, 1994, 4:31:41 PM12/13/94
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Michael Clark (mcl...@bev.net) wrote:

[snip]

: more minutes explaining why Amway is not for me. Is there a better way to
: turn people down?

First, take the fact that you've been offered the Amway business 5+
times as a total complement. You are obviously sharp, and attractive to
those in search of potential distributors.

Second, the best way to decline an offer to look at an opportunity is to
be honest with the person who invites you. I always appreciate it when
people are honest, it saves both of us time. Here's a polite way to
decline: No, I've studied that business thouroughly and have decided
that it doesn't fit in with my goals and objectives. I am pursuing
other opportunities.

You may have to say _NO_ several times.

[snip]

: My question I now ask is "Is this Amway, or any other form of a network

: distribution business?". Is there another question that would be more
: inclusive?

Not that I can think of.

: Thanks, Michael Clark


: Good Morning Consulting
: Blacksburg, Virginia

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Owens Opinions are expressly mine,
U S WEST NewVector Group not those of my employer.
Bellevue, Washington

...your actions speak so loudly that I can't hear what you're saying...

Don in Santa Clara, CA

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Dec 14, 1994, 9:32:42 AM12/14/94
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In article <3cij34$g...@DGS.dgsys.com>

as...@dgs.dgsys.com (American Supply Int'l Inc.) writes:

> There are easy ways to find the right business and
> paths around almost every obstacle, and I'd be happy to share our
> experiences publicly - in the newsgroup and for FREE -- to anyone who
> asks.

Steve, thank you for your kind offer to share your experiences. I
don't know how others on this group feel, but I'd be interested in
hearing more about your opinions on easy ways to find the right
business.....those ways certainly seem to be a mystery to me <g>.
Actually, I wouldn't even ask that finding the right one to be easy,
just do-able.

Don
Disclaimer - These are my opinions, not representing my employer or
anyone else.

Betty S. Lipscher

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Dec 14, 1994, 9:10:33 PM12/14/94
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Please spell out MLM's. I'm new. Thanks - Betty

William Tucker

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Dec 16, 1994, 1:59:52 PM12/16/94
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In article <mclark.13...@bev.net> mcl...@bev.net (Michael Clark)
writes:

That question is good enough for me. When I ask people and they ask "Is
it Amway" I never look surprised at all. I simply ask if they would be
willing to sit down and see the business plan. If you would, great. I
show them a plan I think is wonderful. If they say "No", that's great
also. I leave it at that. As long as people are professional and not
obnoxious about their opportunity, and as long as "prospects" are
open-minded (or not) in a sincere way, the whole process is painless.

Eileen Fraser

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Dec 19, 1994, 6:17:10 PM12/19/94
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In article <1994Dec16....@almserv.uucp> g8uwft@isis (William Tucker) writes:
>From: g8uwft@isis (William Tucker)
>Subject: Re: How to turn down Amway nicely?
>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 18:59:52 GMT


well then you an exception to the rule. I was 'invited' by a secretary in work
to meet with a business network she belonged to. I told her I didn't want any
part in a pyramid scheme. She promised meit wasn't. I thought she belonged to
a network like a chamber of commerce etc..and I went. It was Amway. I said no
at the meeting. Isaid no when she came to my front door. I say to the email
she sends. what will work? She calls on the phone and my husband has to lie
and say I am not home. I can't go to any more meetings with co-workers bexuase
she won't let up. I have been nice and I have been rude. It just doesn't work.
I really resent this.

Debi Heiser

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Dec 15, 1994, 1:57:19 AM12/15/94
to
>I have been approached 5+ times for Amway over the past several years. I
have >sat through the spiels, the videos, listened to the casettes, looked
hard >through the catalog, and come to the conclusion that it is not for me.
I >don't have the personality of "changing someone's buying habits". So last
>night when a friend from high school (8 years ago) called and asked if I
>wanted to be a part of a "business venture", I knew what was coming. I asked
>if the "venture" was Amway, he sounded shocked and said yes (They always
sound >shocked when you flat out ask them if it is Amway). Then I had to
spend 5 >more minutes explaining why Amway is not for me. Is there a better
way to >turn people down?

Yeah. Just say "NO". Don't try to explain. Don't try to be "nice about it".
Do not pass GO. You could add "Thank you, anyway" after the "NO".

Mark E. Wallace

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Dec 20, 1994, 5:08:40 PM12/20/94
to
In article <frasere.17...@primenet.com>, fra...@primenet.com says...

>
>In article <1994Dec16....@almserv.uucp> g8uwft@isis (William Tucker) wri
>tes:
>>From: g8uwft@isis (William Tucker)
>>Subject: Re: How to turn down Amway nicely?
>>Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 18:59:52 GMT
>
>
>well then you an exception to the rule. I was 'invited' by a secretary in work
>to meet with a business network she belonged to. I told her I didn't want any
>part in a pyramid scheme. She promised meit wasn't. I thought she belonged to

I'm sure that others will say this too, but Amway's sales and marketing plan has
been acknowledged by the FTC as NOT being a pyramid. Pyramid schemes are illegal
and forbidden by the FTC; Amway's marketing plan is perfectly legal.

Nonetheless, this secretary needs to get the hint. It's admirable to be
persistent, but I think she's going a bit overboard.

--
----
Mark E. Wallace
Mark_E....@ccmail.us.dell.com

CVK

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Dec 21, 1994, 12:09:27 AM12/21/94
to
In article <hU-1Wn5....@delphi.com>, Betty S. Lipscher
<lips...@delphi.com> wrote:

> Please spell out MLM's. I'm new. Thanks - Betty

Excuse me for jumping in here, but I've researched this topic for close to
3 years now.

MLM (or "Multi Level Marketing" is most often a company that increases its
profits while lowering its costs by enticing as many private individuals
as possible into fooling themselves that they will make a substantial
amount of money by getting others to sign up to do the same. Often, this
pitch is sweetened with hollow claims of it being "easy" too.

Essentially, all of these "independent distributors" become captive
customers of the company who not only buy the stuff, but actively get
others to do so as well. The average *gross* monthly income is well under
a hundred dollars and the overwhelming majority of people simply drop out
after they become disillusioned... likely losing money in the effort.

You'd be hard pressed to find any authoritative, substantiating facts
evidencing otherwise. The smart ones just stay away from these things.

--
cvko...@halcyon.com | Finger pointing at the moon
cvko...@adicco.wa.com | The finger is pointless
| The moon is fingerless

Roy Thompson

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Dec 21, 1994, 5:34:31 AM12/21/94
to
In article <cvkohler-201...@blv-pm2-ip21.halcyon.com>,
cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK) wrote:

> In article <hU-1Wn5....@delphi.com>, Betty S. Lipscher
> <lips...@delphi.com> wrote:
>
> > Please spell out MLM's. I'm new. Thanks - Betty
>
> Excuse me for jumping in here, but I've researched this topic for close to
> 3 years now.

Adding my 2 cents... after much research and seeing many friends get
pulled in by the hype... it's my opinion that 99% of the MLM companies
that exist today started with a marketing plan looking for a product.
That original marketing plan is basically one of four or five types of
network marketing plans, which means they all start just about in the same
spot. Then they go looking for the "right" product to make that
networking plan work. Add much hype and sensation...38,000 reps later
(who all invested $1000 to $10,000), you have a massive company and a
marketing plan that worked...for the founders and a few early starters.

Roy

--
Roy Thompson - roy_th...@vos.stratus.com

Jeff Freeman

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Dec 21, 1994, 11:47:57 AM12/21/94
to
In article <3d7det$p...@uudell.us.dell.com> ma...@roller.us.dell.com (Mark E. Wallace) writes:
>>
>>well then you an exception to the rule. I was 'invited' by a secretary in work
>>to meet with a business network she belonged to. I told her I didn't want any
>>part in a pyramid scheme. She promised meit wasn't. I thought she belonged to

>I'm sure that others will say this too, but Amway's sales and marketing plan has
>been acknowledged by the FTC as NOT being a pyramid. Pyramid schemes are illegal
>and forbidden by the FTC; Amway's marketing plan is perfectly legal.

Maybe in theory but in the real world Amway along with several top
distributors are being sued by ex-Amway reps for a multitude of
things<including it being a pyramid as I recall from an earlier posting>.


Jeff

Jeff Freeman 1-800-GO-PORCH Toll-Free VISA/Mastercard
Front Porch Computers 1-706-695-1888 <voice> AMEX/Diners Club
HW/SW/Electronics/Bus.equipt.Toll free Order/Support lines in 24 countries!
We handle over 35,000 computer/business related items! We ship Worldwide!

Ed Goldgehn

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Dec 20, 1994, 10:53:24 PM12/20/94
to
>well then you an exception to the rule. I was 'invited' by a secretary
in work
>to meet with a business network she belonged to. I told her I didn't
want any
>part in a pyramid scheme. She promised meit wasn't. I thought she
belonged to
>a network like a chamber of commerce etc..and I went. It was Amway. I
said no
>at the meeting. Isaid no when she came to my front door. I say to the
email
>she sends. what will work? She calls on the phone and my husband has to
lie
>and say I am not home. I can't go to any more meetings with co-workers
bexuase
>she won't let up. I have been nice and I have been rude. It just doesn't
work.
>I really resent this.

Tell her you started your own business that is nothing like what she's
doing and that you value your time because it means money without having
to sell anything. Then hand her an invoice for all your time that she's
wasted - in 15 minute minimum increments - at the rate of $85 per hour.
Tell her it's due in 10 days.

I'll bet you don't hear from her again.

If you do, take out a pad and begin writing down the time the
conversation starts (or tell her you're doing this over the phone).
Being suitably notified of your rate per hour, if she continues in her
relentless quest, you'd probably have a good case for "People's Court"...

BTW, if she decides to pay you the $85 per hour, consider yourself a
psychologist and go buy a couch and have her other Amway friends over
for dinner under the same terms! :)
--
*************************************************************************
*
Ed Goldgehn E-Mail: e...@ocn.com
General Manager Voice: (404) 919-1561
The INTERNET Connection, LLC Fax: (404) 919-1568
*************************************************************************
*
Quality of Service and Performance before all else

Boo Pack

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Dec 21, 1994, 1:03:19 PM12/21/94
to
In article <3d88rk$9...@news1.is.net>, e...@ocn.com (Ed Goldgehn) wrote:

> In article <frasere.17...@primenet.com>, fra...@primenet.com
> says...
> >
> >well then you an exception to the rule. I was 'invited' by a secretary
> in work
> >to meet with a business network she belonged to. I told her I didn't
> want any
> >part in a pyramid scheme. She promised meit wasn't. I thought she
> belonged to
> >a network like a chamber of commerce etc..and I went. It was Amway. I
> said no
> >at the meeting. Isaid no when she came to my front door. I say to the
> email
> >she sends. what will work? She calls on the phone and my husband has to
> lie
> >and say I am not home. I can't go to any more meetings with co-workers
> bexuase
> >she won't let up. I have been nice and I have been rude. It just doesn't
> work.
> >I really resent this.
>

She's probably new to the business and doesn't know what she's doing yet.
Sit her down and ask her not to call you about the business anymore and
also add that she shouldn't be doing this type of thing during her work
hours (breaks and lunch are fine, but during office hours is losing
credibility.)

I'll bet if she continues in the business and learns from the materials
available to her (depending on what line of sponsorship she is in) she'll
eventually let up and learn. I think I was like that in the beginning,
some people are.

-boo

CVK

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Dec 22, 1994, 8:16:03 PM12/22/94
to
> Adding my 2 cents... after much research and seeing many friends get
> pulled in by the hype... it's my opinion that 99% of the MLM companies
> that exist today started with a marketing plan looking for a product.
> That original marketing plan is basically one of four or five types of
> network marketing plans, which means they all start just about in the same
> spot. Then they go looking for the "right" product to make that
> networking plan work. Add much hype and sensation...38,000 reps later
> (who all invested $1000 to $10,000), you have a massive company and a
> marketing plan that worked...for the founders and a few early starters.


Exactly.

--
cvko...@halcyon.com | Finger pointing at the moon

christ...@adicco.wa.com | The finger is pointless
| The moon is fingerless

Boo Pack

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Dec 23, 1994, 3:43:39 PM12/23/94
to

> In article <hU-1Wn5....@delphi.com>, Betty S. Lipscher
> <lips...@delphi.com> wrote:
>
> > Please spell out MLM's. I'm new. Thanks - Betty
>
> Excuse me for jumping in here, but I've researched this topic for close to
> 3 years now.
>
> MLM (or "Multi Level Marketing" is most often a company that increases its
> profits while lowering its costs by enticing as many private individuals
> as possible into fooling themselves that they will make a substantial
> amount of money by getting others to sign up to do the same. Often, this
> pitch is sweetened with hollow claims of it being "easy" too.
>
> Essentially, all of these "independent distributors" become captive
> customers of the company who not only buy the stuff, but actively get
> others to do so as well. The average *gross* monthly income is well under
> a hundred dollars and the overwhelming majority of people simply drop out
> after they become disillusioned... likely losing money in the effort.
>
> You'd be hard pressed to find any authoritative, substantiating facts
> evidencing otherwise. The smart ones just stay away from these things.

Hi Betty,

It's unfortunate that MLM has gotten such a bad rap by people such as
CVK. Some multi-level marketing programs are illegal, such as pyramids,
and some are very lucrative (mind you, I didn't say easy) such as Amway.

I've researched the topic too and have even (still today) been in business
for close to 3 years now and I have found that some MLMs do work, some do
not. Simply get many opinions, mine is just one of many that has seen
what an MLM can do for you.

Boo Pack

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Dec 23, 1994, 3:35:06 PM12/23/94
to
In article <cvkohler-221...@blv-pm0-ip25.halcyon.com>,
cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK) wrote:

> > Adding my 2 cents... after much research and seeing many friends get
> > pulled in by the hype... it's my opinion that 99% of the MLM companies
> > that exist today started with a marketing plan looking for a product.
> > That original marketing plan is basically one of four or five types of
> > network marketing plans, which means they all start just about in the same
> > spot. Then they go looking for the "right" product to make that
> > networking plan work. Add much hype and sensation...38,000 reps later
> > (who all invested $1000 to $10,000), you have a massive company and a
> > marketing plan that worked...for the founders and a few early starters.
>
>
> Exactly.

This might be true for a lot of companies, but after CVKs comments, it
looks as though he's very against Amway in general.

In network marketing companies that work, any distributor can pass their
upline in volume and money flow. This company has been around for over 30
years and didn't start a network marketing company and then look for a
product. They had the product first. Now they sell over 6,000 - not
limited to just one line of products. It really only costs appx $140 to
start and you are not required to do a thing after unless you want to.

I know someone who has passed up their 10 year upline within 2 years with
quite a substantial income. This is actually quite popular, so much for
the founders and early starters idea.

CVK

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Dec 24, 1994, 12:36:14 PM12/24/94
to
In article <boopack-2312...@135.0.7.12>, boo...@netcom.com (Boo
Pack) wrote:

> This might be true for a lot of companies, but after CVKs comments, it
> looks as though he's very against Amway in general.

After quite a bit of careful and extensive investigation, I could only
find and conclude that *every* MLM company/arrangement I've examined (and
that includes quite a bit more than just Amway) represent an unfortunate,
highly risky and comparatively inferior "opportunity" to the individual
truly seeking to either "start their own business" or make any meaningful
amount of money...especially if they are not prepared to do so at the
probable disadvantage of quite a few other people.



> In network marketing companies that work, any distributor can pass their
> upline in volume and money flow. This company has been around for over 30
> years and didn't start a network marketing company and then look for a
> product. They had the product first. Now they sell over 6,000 - not
> limited to just one line of products. It really only costs appx $140 to
> start and you are not required to do a thing after unless you want to.

Virtually all MLM companies represent the same underlying "plan" with only
variations on the theme. Whether or not they started "looking for a
product" or having one/several already means little to nothing. They *all*
have "looked" for them, acquired them in the meantime.

A typical seriously misleading claim is like the one you've just used above:
that one can "start" with spending only $140. So? I could "start" my own
real estate empire by spending only $25 to print business cards --
although it will surely cost me one heck of a lot more to succeed at it.
And will absolutely require it.

> I know someone who has passed up their 10 year upline within 2 years with
> quite a substantial income. This is actually quite popular, so much for
> the founders and early starters idea.

Oh, yes, there are some few folks today milking these programs for quite
large amounts of money. But, how they are doing it still comes down to the
same dynamics. The money that ends up in their pockets comes from a very
large amount of other individuals who do not make the same amounts (if
anything at all).

To continually stress that there are some folks making big money at this,
as though it's some sort of substantiation, is ridiculous. After all,
there are probably about as many that have made as much gambling in Vegas
or Atlantic City. So what? Does that mean we should all go throw our money
away their in the attempt?

Or, there are those who have benefitted themselves substantially by
running telephone "boiler room" scams. The potential monetary gains alone
is the least legitimate criteria of a respectable, moral or worthwhile
enterprise.

And, in the case of MLM, as you've pointed out the "industry" has been
around over 30 years now. The dynamics and patterns have become well
established, if not widely realized. And that is, simply, that it just
doesn't pay off for something like 90%+ of those who even try it.

Leland E. Vandervort

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Dec 24, 1994, 10:51:04 AM12/24/94
to
In article <cvkohler-241...@blv-pm1-ip12.halcyon.com> cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK) writes:
>From: cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK)
>Subject: Re: MLM Secrets
>Date: Sat, 24 Dec 1994 09:36:14 -0800


>After quite a bit of careful and extensive investigation, I could only
>find and conclude that *every* MLM company/arrangement I've examined (and
>that includes quite a bit more than just Amway) represent an unfortunate,
>highly risky and comparatively inferior "opportunity" to the individual
>truly seeking to either "start their own business" or make any meaningful
>amount of money...especially if they are not prepared to do so at the
>probable disadvantage of quite a few other people.

I am in 3 multi-levels and haven't lost any money. CVK mentions risk - what
is the risk if I can purchase a product for less cost than I can get it at the
store? Just the wholesale purchase alone makes it pay for itself!
Remember - In MLM - the upline will NEVER tell the downline to do anything to
detriment their business, otherwise they would be cutting their own throat!


>Oh, yes, there are some few folks today milking these programs for quite
>large amounts of money. But, how they are doing it still comes down to the
>same dynamics. The money that ends up in their pockets comes from a very
>large amount of other individuals who do not make the same amounts (if
>anything at all).

CVK seems to radiate an attitude that he doesn't like making money off the
efforts of others. Let me ask you this - Do you either work for someone else
OR do you have someone else working for you? Are you a manager or an employer?
Let's face it folks - there will always be those who do not make it in MLM and
there will always be those who do. I know I'd much rather be putting hours
into my OWN business than putting hours into someone elses who will tell me
how much I can earn and when to get up in the morning, and whether I can have
the day off or not. I also like being able to help others to get to the same
level in life! In MLM you get paid for what you produce!

CVK seems to be against any kind of MLM - well I take it that he is also
against franchises, corporate structures, government agencies, and while we're
at it - any kind of free enterprise...


Leland E. Vandervort
Vandervort Enterprises International
(301) 725-7628 voice/fax
(301) 725-8009 Amateur Radio BBS
(301) 648-3254 (Mobile and Voice Mail -24 hrs)
lva...@md.us.net

CVK

unread,
Dec 25, 1994, 4:03:59 AM12/25/94
to
In article <lvande.4...@md.us.net>, lva...@md.us.net (Leland E.
Vandervort) wrote:

> I am in 3 multi-levels and haven't lost any money.

Please note that, apparently, no one of them is sufficient to the common
claim that they will make you "financially independent".

> what
> is the risk if I can purchase a product for less cost than I can get it
at the
> store? Just the wholesale purchase alone makes it pay for itself!

I haven't seen one yet that sells at true "wholesale" prices. Besides, all
one needs is a business license and one can buy most anything at real
wholesale. But, that's only enjoying a discount -- not necessarily
succeeding in business.

> Remember - In MLM - the upline will NEVER tell the downline to do anything to
> detriment their business, otherwise they would be cutting their own throat!

But the "upline" can *only* make money from the downline buying stuff and
getting others to get others to... And that's most all of what they tend
to tell anyone about. It's all about getting downline to buy stuff.

> CVK seems to radiate an attitude that he doesn't like making money off the
> efforts of others. Let me ask you this - Do you either work for someone else
> OR do you have someone else working for you? Are you a manager or an
> employer?

Paying someone fairly for accurately described work done (and hopefully
productive and worthwhile) is one thing. Extracting money from lots of
people on false hopes, dreamweaving and statistically improbable "plans"
that almost never happen is quite another.

> Let's face it folks - there will always be those who do not make it in
MLM and
> there will always be those who do.

That's right -- and about 10 or more of the first for every 1 of the
other. In fact, that's the only way that 1 can, really.

>I know I'd much rather be putting hours
> into my OWN business than putting hours into someone elses who will tell me
> how much I can earn and when to get up in the morning, and whether I can have
> the day off or not.

Except it's not your "own" business. You have no equity, have signed a
contract which forbids you from soliciting "your" downline for any other
products and you can never sell "your" business, which is a fundamental
business asset & technique.

>I also like being able to help others to get to the same
> level in life!

And just what is your "level in life", Leland? What bothers me is how
blithely you seem to overlook the vast majority that lose at the MLM
scheme.

> CVK seems to be against any kind of MLM - well I take it that he is also
> against franchises, corporate structures, government agencies, and while
we're
> at it - any kind of free enterprise...

Yes, I have not yet found one, single MLM "plan" that is not flawed with
the same sorry reality that almost everyone loses, or does meagerly (I'd
call not worth the effort) while very, very few profit from their mistake.
That's just the facts of the matter -- regardless of any conceptual spins
you or others try to embellish it with.

If you can credibly demonstrate any MLM organization that has even an
equal amount of people making a per capita equivalent income, only
requiring an average amount of time, effort and/or capital expenditure,
then I will readily concede my points.

All the other types of genuine businesses you mention can be subject to
many comparable faults and temptations. However, they are much better at
offering versions of true value, opportunity and equity.

--
cvko...@halcyon.com | Finger pointing at the moon

christ...@adicco.wa.com | The finger is pointless
| The moon is fingerless

Leland E. Vandervort

unread,
Dec 24, 1994, 8:08:22 PM12/24/94
to
In article <cvkohler-251...@blv-pm1-ip15.halcyon.com> cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK) writes:
>From: cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK)
>Subject: Re: MLM Secrets
>Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 01:03:59 -0800

>In article <lvande.4...@md.us.net>, lva...@md.us.net (Leland E.
>Vandervort) wrote:

>I haven't seen one yet that sells at true "wholesale" prices. Besides, all
>one needs is a business license and one can buy most anything at real
>wholesale. But, that's only enjoying a discount -- not necessarily
>succeeding in business.

I never said that making a savings on one's own purchases WAS succeeding in
business - I merely stated that for the startup fee and annual renewal it's
worth it.

>> Remember - In MLM - the upline will NEVER tell the downline to do anything to
>> detriment their business, otherwise they would be cutting their own throat!

>But the "upline" can *only* make money from the downline buying stuff and

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>


getting others to
get others to... And that's most all of what they tend>to tell anyone about.
It's all about getting downline to buy stuff.

Wrong! - I don't earn ANY commission if I don't supply evidence of RETAIL
SALES TO CUSTOMERS - IN ANY OF MY BUSINESSES. For the truth on how we work
our Amway business, refer to my previous post "The Truth About Amway" (if you
haven't seen it, I can resend it for you personally).
Additionally, In one of my MLM businesses, I do NOT have any downline, yet I
am making a healthy income on that one alone (3 times what I was making in the
military!).

>Paying someone fairly for accurately described work done (and hopefully
>productive and worthwhile) is one thing. Extracting money from lots of
>people on false hopes, dreamweaving and statistically improbable "plans"
>that almost never happen is quite another.

Show me where I extract money from lots of people on false hopes, when I only
make override commissions on sales volume. If I was making money on false
hopes, I wouldn't have to teach people how to sell products and sponsor people.
(In my Amway business, EVERYONE is doing well in my downline. In fact, I have
several in my downline who are making MORE THAN I AM! (pearl DD with
one frontline Emerald and two downline Diamonds).


>> Let's face it folks - there will always be those who do not make
it in>MLM and
>> there will always be those who do.

>That's right -- and about 10 or more of the first for every 1 of the
>other. In fact, that's the only way that 1 can, really.

As far as your statistics - yes I can relate to them... BUT -
Statistics only take averages ACROSS THE BOARD. Another of the MLM businesses
I own (yes OWN) has (in my experience) a 75-85% success rate for everyone I
have introduced.

>>I know I'd much rather be putting hours
>> into my OWN business than putting hours into someone elses who will tell me
>> how much I can earn and when to get up in the morning, and whether I can have
>> the day off or not.

>Except it's not your "own" business. You have no equity, have signed a
>contract which forbids you from soliciting "your" downline for any other
>products and you can never sell "your" business, which is a fundamental
>business asset & technique.

Yes it is my OWN business - yes I can sell the business (not that I would want
to). Admittedly, the Amway business can't be sold, but that's not my major
moneymaker (before you get the wrong idea - look up what a pearl DD makes). I
enjoy doing it. Plus the incomes from all three businesses can be placed into
my estate and passed on through generations. What other business
opportunities offer the opportunity to provide a continuing income to your
children, grandchildren, etc...??

>>I also like being able to help others to get to the same
>> level in life!

>And just what is your "level in life", Leland? What bothers me is how
>blithely you seem to overlook the vast majority that lose at the MLM
>scheme.

Like I said before - my approach to people in MLM is that if they want to make
money, I'll teach them how to do it ETHICALLY. If they aren't prepared to put
in hard work and be honest with people, they will not succeed - period. If I
wanted to make money off of everyone I could, I would have done it by now (I
would be a Crown DD in Amway) but I am choosy who I work with.

In answer to your question about my level in life - state law prohibits me
disclosing my income BUT suffice it to say that I could throw away my Amway
distributorship AND my NuSkin distributorship WITHOUT A DECREASE IN LIFESTYLE
and without having to go back to the RUT system of a JOB.

>> CVK seems to be against any kind of MLM - well I take it that he is
also >> against franchises, corporate structures, government agencies, and
while>we're
>> at it - any kind of free enterprise...

>Yes, I have not yet found one, single MLM "plan" that is not flawed with
>the same sorry reality that almost everyone loses, or does meagerly (I'd
>call not worth the effort) while very, very few profit from their mistake.
>That's just the facts of the matter -- regardless of any conceptual spins
>you or others try to embellish it with.

You have obviously been looking in the wrong places! ;-)

>If you can credibly demonstrate any MLM organization that has even an
>equal amount of people making a per capita equivalent income, only
>requiring an average amount of time, effort and/or capital expenditure,
>then I will readily concede my points.

My main business does require some capital (about $700 total initially) but
the time requirement is only literally 10 HOURS PER WEEK. We market an
excellent product at an excellent price (yes I could get the same products
from my Amway business but I don't - I do find these somewhat superior - but
that's not to say that all Amway products are inferior).

>All the other types of genuine businesses you mention can be subject to
>many comparable faults and temptations. However, they are much better at
>offering versions of true value, opportunity and equity.

Where is the true value when a person can go to work for a company, not step
on anyone's toes, just keep out of the way and get promoted to management and
eventually retire and get a gold watch and retire on 60% of what they couldn't
live on in the first place - yeah - real value - NOT!

Steven Garman

unread,
Dec 29, 1994, 12:59:48 AM12/29/94
to
In article <lvande.4...@md.us.net>,

Supposition on your part, and a conversational tactic which is just that -- a
tactic. Stick to facts, please -- or take this to email. CVK is discussing
MLMs in general -- so stick to MLMs.
--
pit-manager-----------------------------------------pit-manager
suga...@world.std.com | Standard Disclaimer | UWSA Mem. 168404
Boston MA USA | Physics is the universe's operating system.
pit-manager-------misc.entrepreneurs Archivist------pit-manager

CVK

unread,
Dec 28, 1994, 10:54:07 PM12/28/94
to
In article <lvande.7...@md.us.net>, lva...@md.us.net (Leland E.
Vandervort) wrote:

> I never said that making a savings on one's own purchases WAS succeeding in
> business - I merely stated that for the startup fee and annual renewal it's
> worth it.

And as I said, one certainly need not hook up with an MLM outfit to buy
things at discount (MLM doesn't offer true wholesale prices).

> I don't earn ANY commission if I don't supply evidence of RETAIL
> SALES TO CUSTOMERS - IN ANY OF MY BUSINESSES.

That was part of my point. These type of direct retail sales (& many other
complicated "qualifying" to "earn" commissions) can be a lousy way to
profit. For instance, most MLMs only pay out a measly 30% or so markup.
True retail can need to go as high as 50% of selling price.


> Show me where I extract money from lots of people on false hopes, when I only
> make override commissions on sales volume. If I was making money on false
> hopes, I wouldn't have to teach people how to sell products and sponsor
people.

I can't know if you are doing so, but since most folks get involved only
to fail, then anyone who characterizes such an improbable "opportunity" to
others as being a good deal is over-emphasizing a small fraction of the
truth.

MLMers concentrate on "sponsoring" people and "motivating" them to get
others, because it is built on enticing plenty of people to become
involved, spending their personal money in the effort (including much
"personal use" of the products -- which isn't "business").

This is extracting money from individuals on the misleading "possibility"
(though steeply unlikely) chance that they might eventually earn anything
to speak of. Most won't.

> As far as your statistics - yes I can relate to them... BUT -
> Statistics only take averages ACROSS THE BOARD.

Of course you can relate to them. They're rather well-known in the MLM
"industry" and anyone who's been involved for any time is probably very
aware of them. Thus, my contempt for those who gloss over the true facts,
distort the relatively tiny fraction that make substantial money (while
avoiding much of the truth about what it genuinely takes to do so).

Yes, statistics are "across the board" but that only means that it's
broadly and generally the case. In other words, for the average person it
is the likeliest scenario to expect. This plays out as specifically
discouraging, unfortunate news if candidly presented. I've never seen an
MLMer disclose these facts to those they were recruiting. In fact, quite
the opposite. Most resist even getting it said (much like you've been),
and way too many deny it, lie about it and habitually practice other such
outright deceptions.

Now, why would that be?

> Admittedly, the Amway business can't be sold, but that's not my major

> moneymaker...

That's right -- so, in a very real sense, it's not even "your" business. I
would go further to state that it's not even a real "business" because of
this and other core features that actually prevent people from essential
successful options that other authentic businesses easily provide.

> What other business
> opportunities offer the opportunity to provide a continuing income to your
> children, grandchildren, etc...??

Just about any of them.

> Like I said before - my approach to people in MLM is that if they want
to make
> money, I'll teach them how to do it ETHICALLY.

Like I said before - the problem with MLM is that it almost always is an
unethical propostion. Personally, given it's proven performance over so
many years, and its underlying consumption of private individuals' cash to
fund everything while leaving them at a loss and disappointed, I consider
the "industry" to be unethical, even if strictly legal.

> In answer to your question about my level in life - state law prohibits me

> disclosing my income...

I doubt that very much. As a free citizen of these United States you are
perfectly free to tell us your income. You may be legally prevented from
mischaracterizing it, though.

> You have obviously been looking in the wrong places! ;-)

You think that several of the leading MLM companies are the "wrong
places"? Then just what might you call the right places? Besides,
fundamentally, the business structure and type of "opportunity" is
essentially the same for them all. And so are the flaws.

> My main business does require some capital (about $700 total initially) but
> the time requirement is only literally 10 HOURS PER WEEK. We market an
> excellent product at an excellent price (yes I could get the same products
> from my Amway business but I don't - I do find these somewhat superior - but
> that's not to say that all Amway products are inferior).

The truth is, though, that one simply cannot make a truly substantial
amount of money by selling product to retail customers. So, hardly anyone
actually concentrates or puts much time/effort into that. Instead, most
focus on "recruiting" other "distributors".

Problem is, you can only make a tiny slice of their sales volume (and they
likely won't sell much retail either). So you have to keep driving deeper
down the levels and trying to get the levels as "filled" horizontally,
too, so that you can "qualify" for the "best" commissions.

Then, since it takes about 10 pitches for every 1 person signed, and most
of those signed aren't very "productive" and most of those will simply
drop out within the year, it can take a lot of time/effort constantly just
finding folks to keep the slots filled, much less performing.

I have trouble even just picturing how you might be doing all this in only
10 hours a week. Unless, of course, you're only making peanuts.

> Where is the true value when a person can go to work for a company, not step
> on anyone's toes, just keep out of the way and get promoted to management and
> eventually retire and get a gold watch and retire on 60% of what they
couldn't
> live on in the first place - yeah - real value - NOT!

Oh, I never said that the employee route was necessarily the best choice,
either. Although, it sure offers a lot more than scurrying around trying
to sell miscellaneous household stuff to strangers or talk unwitting folks
into wasting their personal money and precious time on an inferior
"opportunity" that will only fail for the vast majority of them.

No, I recommend that people actually pursue building their genuine "own"
business. Risks? Yes. Manageable? Can be. Rewarding? Far more than any MLM
deal I've ever seen.

--
cvko...@halcyon.com | Finger pointing at the moon

christ...@adicco.wa.com | The finger is pointless
| The moon is fingerless

CVK

unread,
Jan 11, 1995, 4:18:36 AM1/11/95
to
In article <lvande.7...@md.us.net>, lva...@md.us.net (Leland E.
Vandervort) wrote:

> I never said that making a savings on one's own purchases WAS succeeding in
> business - I merely stated that for the startup fee and annual renewal it's
> worth it.

And as I said, one certainly need not hook up with an MLM outfit to buy


things at discount (MLM doesn't offer true wholesale prices).

> I don't earn ANY commission if I don't supply evidence of RETAIL


> SALES TO CUSTOMERS - IN ANY OF MY BUSINESSES.

That was part of my point. These type of direct retail sales (& many other


complicated "qualifying" to "earn" commissions) can be a lousy way to
profit. For instance, most MLMs only pay out a measly 30% or so markup.
True retail can need to go as high as 50% of selling price.

> Show me where I extract money from lots of people on false hopes, when I only
> make override commissions on sales volume. If I was making money on false
> hopes, I wouldn't have to teach people how to sell products and sponsor
people.

I can't know if you are doing so, but since most folks get involved only


to fail, then anyone who characterizes such an improbable "opportunity" to
others as being a good deal is over-emphasizing a small fraction of the
truth.

MLMers concentrate on "sponsoring" people and "motivating" them to get
others, because it is built on enticing plenty of people to become
involved, spending their personal money in the effort (including much
"personal use" of the products -- which isn't "business").

This is extracting money from individuals on the misleading "possibility"
(though steeply unlikely) chance that they might eventually earn anything
to speak of. Most won't.

> As far as your statistics - yes I can relate to them... BUT -


> Statistics only take averages ACROSS THE BOARD.

Of course you can relate to them. They're rather well-known in the MLM


"industry" and anyone who's been involved for any time is probably very
aware of them. Thus, my contempt for those who gloss over the true facts,
distort the relatively tiny fraction that make substantial money (while
avoiding much of the truth about what it genuinely takes to do so).

Yes, statistics are "across the board" but that only means that it's
broadly and generally the case. In other words, for the average person it
is the likeliest scenario to expect. This plays out as specifically
discouraging, unfortunate news if candidly presented. I've never seen an
MLMer disclose these facts to those they were recruiting. In fact, quite
the opposite. Most resist even getting it said (much like you've been),
and way too many deny it, lie about it and habitually practice other such
outright deceptions.

Now, why would that be?

> Admittedly, the Amway business can't be sold, but that's not my major
> moneymaker...

That's right -- so, in a very real sense, it's not even "your" business. I
would go further to state that it's not even a real "business" because of
this and other core features that actually prevent people from essential
successful options that other authentic businesses easily provide.

> What other business


> opportunities offer the opportunity to provide a continuing income to your
> children, grandchildren, etc...??

Just about any of them.

> Like I said before - my approach to people in MLM is that if they want


to make
> money, I'll teach them how to do it ETHICALLY.

Like I said before - the problem with MLM is that it almost always is an


unethical propostion. Personally, given it's proven performance over so
many years, and its underlying consumption of private individuals' cash to
fund everything while leaving them at a loss and disappointed, I consider
the "industry" to be unethical, even if strictly legal.

> In answer to your question about my level in life - state law prohibits me
> disclosing my income...

I doubt that very much. As a free citizen of these United States you are
perfectly free to tell us your income. You may be legally prevented from
mischaracterizing it, though.

> You have obviously been looking in the wrong places! ;-)


> My main business does require some capital (about $700 total initially) but
> the time requirement is only literally 10 HOURS PER WEEK. We market an
> excellent product at an excellent price (yes I could get the same products
> from my Amway business but I don't - I do find these somewhat superior - but
> that's not to say that all Amway products are inferior).
>
> >All the other types of genuine businesses you mention can be subject to
> >many comparable faults and temptations. However, they are much better at
> >offering versions of true value, opportunity and equity.
>
> Where is the true value when a person can go to work for a company, not step
> on anyone's toes, just keep out of the way and get promoted to management and
> eventually retire and get a gold watch and retire on 60% of what they
couldn't
> live on in the first place - yeah - real value - NOT!
>
> Leland E. Vandervort
> Vandervort Enterprises International
> (301) 725-7628 voice/fax
> (301) 725-8009 Amateur Radio BBS
> (301) 648-3254 (Mobile and Voice Mail -24 hrs)
> lva...@md.us.net

--


cvko...@halcyon.com | Finger pointing at the moon

christ...@adicco.wa.com | The finger is pointless
| The moon is fingerless

Gary Fritz

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 1:23:43 PM1/13/95
to
In article <cvkohler-110...@blv-pm0-ip2.halcyon.com>,

cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK) wrote:
> > In answer to your question about my level in life - state law prohibits me
> > disclosing my income...
>
> I doubt that very much. As a free citizen of these United States you are
> perfectly free to tell us your income. You may be legally prevented from
> mischaracterizing it, though.

Once again you demonstrate your lack of knowledge of the industry, Chris.

Many states *prohibit* MLM distributors from disclosing their incomes,
even verifiable/audited figures, because their income may not be "typical"
of what a new person can expect. (Of course it isn't! Assuming it's worth
"bragging" about, the person earned it by working hard, probably for a
fairly long time. Since 98% <manufactured psudo-statistic> of the people
who join MLMs put in a total of about 2 hours <another m.p-s> work, most
of them will never see anything like that person's income.)

Gary

Ken Leonard

unread,
Jan 13, 1995, 8:21:44 PM1/13/95
to
CVK (cvko...@halcyon.com) wrote:
: In article <lvande.7...@md.us.net>, lva...@md.us.net (Leland E.
: Vandervort) wrote:

: > I never said that making a savings on one's own purchases WAS succeeding in
: > business - I merely stated that for the startup fee and annual renewal it's
: > worth it.

: And as I said, one certainly need not hook up with an MLM outfit to buy
: things at discount (MLM doesn't offer true wholesale prices).

: > I don't earn ANY commission if I don't supply evidence of RETAIL
: > SALES TO CUSTOMERS - IN ANY OF MY BUSINESSES.

: That was part of my point. These type of direct retail sales (& many other
: complicated "qualifying" to "earn" commissions) can be a lousy way to
: profit. For instance, most MLMs only pay out a measly 30% or so markup.
: True retail can need to go as high as 50% of selling price.

You are wrong once again Chris. Remember the 15/85 rule that Paul Zane
Pilzer, economist talks about? Basically it costs 15 cents to manufacture
a product and 85 cents to distribute the product regardless of the
distribution system Nesbitt says it's 20 cents to manufacture. OK, so
what we have is the fact that 80% of the retail cost should be available
for commisions. There are plenty of product based MLM's that pay out the
full 80% but bare in mind that these customers are not directly tied to
you. Also bare in mind that in non-MLM distribution because of the
Jobber, wholesaler, retailer "pyramid" nobody gets the full 80%.

: > Show me where I extract money from lots of people on false hopes, when I only


: > make override commissions on sales volume. If I was making money on false
: > hopes, I wouldn't have to teach people how to sell products and sponsor
: people.

Chris, we will tell you one more time. Nobody makes money unless retail
sales are made.

: I can't know if you are doing so, but since most folks get involved only


: to fail, then anyone who characterizes such an improbable "opportunity" to
: others as being a good deal is over-emphasizing a small fraction of the
: truth.

The simple fact is that if you get into MLM or non-MLM business, if you
sit back and hope the money will role in it simply will not. Those
getting into any business must realize that they must plan the work and
work the plan with the emphasis on WORK. Yes, both MLM and franchizes
(and other turn key opportunities promise big potential but if you are
not willing to do the work you simply are not going to make the money.


: MLMers concentrate on "sponsoring" people and "motivating" them to get


: others, because it is built on enticing plenty of people to become
: involved, spending their personal money in the effort (including much
: "personal use" of the products -- which isn't "business").

: This is extracting money from individuals on the misleading "possibility"
: (though steeply unlikely) chance that they might eventually earn anything
: to speak of. Most won't.

Again, the way MLM works is that a lot of people sell *some* product. You
can work MLM just like a non-MLM if you wish. Simply go out and get all
the customers yourself. The power of MLM however is to both gather
customers and recruit. I went into this privately with Chris but he seems
to have a lapse of memory. Next, NOBODY MAKES MONEY on Kits alone or the
simple act of recruiting. The money is generated by sales. DO YOU
UNDERSTAND ME??


: > As far as your statistics - yes I can relate to them... BUT -


: > Statistics only take averages ACROSS THE BOARD.

: Of course you can relate to them. They're rather well-known in the MLM
: "industry" and anyone who's been involved for any time is probably very
: aware of them. Thus, my contempt for those who gloss over the true facts,
: distort the relatively tiny fraction that make substantial money (while
: avoiding much of the truth about what it genuinely takes to do so).

The 'tiny fraction' as you put it is due to the fact that the vast
majority of people that get into MLM have absolutley no ackground in
sales and expect to sit back and watch the money role in. When their
'dream' is crushed they quit.


(I'm tired, more on Monday) Gotta go out and work my burgioning MLM
business this weekend!!

-Ken

CVK

unread,
Jan 15, 1995, 7:05:09 PM1/15/95
to
In article <lKi5lONR...@csn.org>, gfr...@csn.org (Gary Fritz) wrote:

> In article <cvkohler-110...@blv-pm0-ip2.halcyon.com>,
> cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK) wrote:
> > > In answer to your question about my level in life - state law
prohibits me
> > > disclosing my income...
> >
> > I doubt that very much. As a free citizen of these United States you are
> > perfectly free to tell us your income. You may be legally prevented from
> > mischaracterizing it, though.

> Many states *prohibit* MLM distributors from disclosing their incomes,


> even verifiable/audited figures, because their income may not be "typical"
> of what a new person can expect.

You're probably mistaken again, Gary, or just reporting poorly. While
there are laws restricting what can be said about income for the purposes
of promotional hype, naturally as an individual we are all free to
disclose pretty much whatever we choose.

You're welcome to cite any particular legislation that you are
interpreting otherwise, however.


> Assuming it's worth
> "bragging" about, the person earned it by working hard, probably for a
> fairly long time. Since 98% <manufactured psudo-statistic> of the people
> who join MLMs put in a total of about 2 hours <another m.p-s> work, most
> of them will never see anything like that person's income.)

I think we've well established the fact that most earn only a paltry amount.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
cvko...@halcyon.com | Virtualoso Marketizing
christ...@adicco.wa.com |

Gary Fritz

unread,
Jan 15, 1995, 11:50:07 PM1/15/95
to
In article <cvkohler-150...@blv-pm2-ip11.halcyon.com>,

cvko...@halcyon.com (CVK) wrote:
> > Many states *prohibit* MLM distributors from disclosing their incomes,
> > even verifiable/audited figures, because their income may not be "typical"
> > of what a new person can expect.
> You're probably mistaken again, Gary, or just reporting poorly. While
> there are laws restricting what can be said about income for the purposes
> of promotional hype, naturally as an individual we are all free to
> disclose pretty much whatever we choose.

Ask your local AG before you assume, Chris. I've been in this business
for over 4 years now and I have made it a point to know what is and is not
allowed. Most states consider "flashing checks" to be misrepresentation,
because it could lead the new person to expect the same type of income --
without making clear the amount of work required.

I do know that Kentucky is one of the few states that allows "check flashing."

Gary

CVK

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Jan 16, 1995, 7:30:06 PM1/16/95
to
In article <3f78v8$u...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com>, k...@kaiwan009.kaiwan.com (Ken
Leonard) wrote:

> You are wrong once again Chris. Remember the 15/85 rule that Paul Zane
> Pilzer, economist talks about? Basically it costs 15 cents to manufacture
> a product and 85 cents to distribute the product regardless of the
> distribution system Nesbitt says it's 20 cents to manufacture. OK, so
> what we have is the fact that 80% of the retail cost should be available
> for commisions. There are plenty of product based MLM's that pay out the
> full 80% but bare in mind that these customers are not directly tied to
> you. Also bare in mind that in non-MLM distribution because of the
> Jobber, wholesaler, retailer "pyramid" nobody gets the full 80%.

Sorry, Ken, but you've distorted it again. A general retail markup alone,
in many commodity categories, is closer to 100% right there. As you point
out above, though, while the originating MLM company may enjoy very large
percentages of profit on sales, the "distributors" are confined to very
small "commissions" calculated against the same grosses, and thus are
artificially held to similarly unrealistically shallow retail margins,
too.

> Chris, we will tell you one more time. Nobody makes money unless retail
> sales are made.

If you really think that I'm consistently missing some valid point here,
then take it a step further to clarify. What is the essential difference
between a "retail" sale in MLM and any other kind? How is this processed
and accounted for differently? When "distributors" purchase items/services
for their own use (and/or families) how are these transactions different
from when/if they sell them to anyone else?

> The simple fact is that if you get into MLM or non-MLM business, if you
> sit back and hope the money will role in it simply will not. Those
> getting into any business must realize that they must plan the work and
> work the plan with the emphasis on WORK. Yes, both MLM and franchizes
> (and other turn key opportunities promise big potential but if you are
> not willing to do the work you simply are not going to make the money.

Of course not. What's your point?

> Again, the way MLM works is that a lot of people sell *some* product. You
> can work MLM just like a non-MLM if you wish. Simply go out and get all
> the customers yourself. The power of MLM however is to both gather
> customers and recruit. I went into this privately with Chris but he seems
> to have a lapse of memory.

I recall your frequent and massive email all too well, Ken. Thanks for
finally letting up. But, you did no better in truly "explaining" anything
there than you have here. Just more of these blank assertions. That was no
more useful than are these.

Recruiting others does *not* generate any more "sales", although it
gathers many more people who need to in order for there to be a sizable
enough collective revenue for the "organization". I'll modify that by
delineating between possible sales to purely "retail" customers, who are
not also "distributors" and sales of items by "distributors" who are
"customers".

Thus, the theoretical practice of "multiplying" one's effort through
recruiting others simultaneously creates a corresponding demand for
everyone recruited to actually make just as many true "retail" customers
in order for there to be genuine business revenues in scale with how many
people make up the "organization". Otherwise, revenues can *only* come
from those *in* the organization...flowing uphill in little "multi levels"
of percentages.


> Next, NOBODY MAKES MONEY on Kits alone or the
> simple act of recruiting. The money is generated by sales. DO YOU
> UNDERSTAND ME??

Notice your language, with a different emphasis: "nobody makes money ON
KITS ALONE or the simple act of recruiting." So, there *is* money made on
kits...it's just that that isn't the only source. Right? Same with
recruiting -- you make money on "training" and then there's the "money
generated by sales" when selling the recruits their so-called Personal
Volume (PV), which is product/service they and their families use.

It seems I understand you rather well.

> : > As far as your statistics - yes I can relate to them... BUT -
> : > Statistics only take averages ACROSS THE BOARD.
>
> : Of course you can relate to them. They're rather well-known in the MLM
> : "industry" and anyone who's been involved for any time is probably very
> : aware of them. Thus, my contempt for those who gloss over the true facts,
> : distort the relatively tiny fraction that make substantial money (while
> : avoiding much of the truth about what it genuinely takes to do so).
>
> The 'tiny fraction' as you put it is due to the fact that the vast
> majority of people that get into MLM have absolutley no ackground in
> sales and expect to sit back and watch the money role in. When their
> 'dream' is crushed they quit.

You're getting close to the truth here. Yes, most people don't have much
of a background in sales. Or "business" for that matter. But, then, that's
why MLM predominantly targets this relatively naieve segment of the
population to exploit this susceptibility to the premise, unarmed without
a more insightful perspective from which to appraise it.

Funny how many MLM gigs claim that there's even "no selling" and mask the
truth with plenty of euphemistic terms like "show the plan" rather than
the more accurate "present a hard hitting sales pitch".

Then, after slamming up against the harsh truth, their "dream" *is*
"crushed" -- but it's the dream that was inflated by MLM claims of
"freedom" and "financial independence", etc. It's not very clean of any
business to entice individuals who are clearly unprepared and knowingly
leading them into such a predicament, loaded to their disadvantage. It's
also revealing to see the kinds of condemning and even derogatory terms
used to describe these "quitters" by the same MLM folks who woo and create
them...after they've used them.

ke...@delphi.com

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Jan 21, 1995, 9:18:30 PM1/21/95
to
CVK <cvko...@halcyon.com> writes:

>And as I said, one certainly need not hook up with an MLM outfit to buy
>things at discount (MLM doesn't offer true wholesale prices).

How so Chris. Examples please, inuendo is not enough to make your case.
[A


>That was part of my point. These type of direct retail sales (& many other
>complicated "qualifying" to "earn" commissions) can be a lousy way to
>profit. For instance, most MLMs only pay out a measly 30% or so markup.
>True retail can need to go as high as 50% of selling price.

What would you say if you got 44% on retail commission,12.5% bonus on volumn up
to a certain amount another 2% to another amount another 1% antoher 1% antoher
1%. Lets see that is 61.5% of the retail price in YOUR pocket. Not good enough
Chris?


>This is extracting money from individuals on the misleading "possibility"
>(though steeply unlikely) chance that they might eventually earn anything
>to speak of. Most won't.

Huh? Great doubletalk Chris but what does it mean?


>Of course you can relate to them. They're rather well-known in the MLM
>"industry" and anyone who's been involved for any time is probably very
>aware of them. Thus, my contempt for those who gloss over the true facts,
>distort the relatively tiny fraction that make substantial money (while
>avoiding much of the truth about what it genuinely takes to do so).

Do you mean to imply that less than one percent (a tiny fraction) make
substantial (we know you consider that to be more thamn $60k per year) income?
Geez, you don't have to go to college 4 years to know that $60k is a lot of
income. And that's on the low side right Chris?


>Yes, statistics are "across the board" but that only means that it's
>broadly and generally the case. In other words, for the average person it
>is the likeliest scenario to expect. This plays out as specifically
>discouraging, unfortunate news if candidly presented. I've never seen an
>MLMer disclose these facts to those they were recruiting. In fact, quite
>the opposite. Most resist even getting it said (much like you've been),
>and way too many deny it, lie about it and habitually practice other such
>outright deceptions.

Gee Chris, aren't MLM businesses required by law to supply the average numbers
for active distributors? Are they violating the law and you are the only person
that knows it. Cool, sell your story to "hard copy"!!!


>That's right -- so, in a very real sense, it's not even "your" business. I
>would go further to state that it's not even a real "business" because of
>this and other core features that actually prevent people from essential
>successful options that other authentic businesses easily provide.

Chris you may hold your opinion but you certainly do not appear knowlegeable on
the subject of MLM.


>Just about any of them.
>
>> Like I said before - my approach to people in MLM is that if they want
>to make
>> money, I'll teach them how to do it ETHICALLY.
>
>Like I said before - the problem with MLM is that it almost always is an
>unethical propostion. Personally, given it's proven performance over so
>many years, and its underlying consumption of private individuals' cash to
>fund everything while leaving them at a loss and disappointed, I consider

Chris the only thing unethical regarding MLM is your treatment of it with
respect to what you claim to know about it. You state your opinion as fact.
That is unethical in and of itself.


>> In answer to your question about my level in life - state law prohibits me
>> disclosing my income...
>
>I doubt that very much. As a free citizen of these United States you are
>perfectly free to tell us your income. You may be legally prevented from
>mischaracterizing it, though.

Not true Chris. Some states do prevent certian income disclosures under certain
circumstances. I'm surprised someone with your knowledge of every detail of
everything doesn't know that.

ke...@delphi.com

unread,
Jan 21, 1995, 9:31:55 PM1/21/95
to
A 100% markup is 50% of retail Chris (do the math)! Try Buy at $.40 sell at
$1.00 That's more like MLM. The reason is obvious if you understnad who touches
the retail product along the way vs MLM.

ke...@delphi.com

unread,
Jan 21, 1995, 9:28:50 PM1/21/95
to
CVK <cvko...@halcyon.com> writes:

>No, Gary...instead, why don't you simply tell us which states actually
>prevent MLM distributors from disclosing their personal income, *other*
>than as "check flashing" or other deceptive business practices. After all,
>you've asserted it here, so why should I research it?

Chris, He has caught you. You don't know this? Hah!! This is basic Chris.
Business 101. You lose pal!! Gary is right and you are WRONG! Plain and simple!!

ke...@delphi.com

unread,
Jan 21, 1995, 9:34:17 PM1/21/95
to
Leland,
Thank you. You are the first to state the case with a fair
amount of accuracy and blow holes in Chris's argument. Chris is
a bigot when it comes to MLM's. He yells so loud against that
you must wonder if he tried it and failed or has some other axe
to grind!!

Leland E. Vandervort

unread,
Jan 22, 1995, 11:46:45 PM1/22/95
to
In article <p8+YiK...@delphi.com> ke...@delphi.com writes:
>From: ke...@delphi.com
>Subject: Re: Instead of MLM
>Date: Sat, 21 Jan 95 21:28:50 -0500

Just for Chris' benefit...

1. No income exaggerations may be presented. If income examples are
disclosed, they must represent actual typical incomes of distributors.
Distributors at all "ranks" must also be shown in correlation.

2. Examples used only to illustrate how the plan works are allowed if they
are pointed out as examples only and any relevance to anticipated success is
disclaimed.

3. Absolutely *NO* income representations can be made in Georgia, Louisiana,
Massachusetts, Wyoming, Maryland, and New Mexico.

Varying sources indicate the same requirements. These sources are available
on request.


Leland E. Vandervort
Vandervort Enterprises International

====================================================================
Email: lel...@lvande.us.net WWW: http://lvande.us.net/vei-home.htm
v...@lvande.us.net Anonymous FTP: ftp://lvande.us.net/
====================================================================
(WWW and FTP servers are not available 24hrs)



ke...@delphi.com

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Jan 28, 1995, 8:41:41 AM1/28/95
to
Leland E. Vandervort <lel...@lvande.us.net> writes:

>3. Absolutely *NO* income representations can be made in Georgia, Louisiana,
>Massachusetts, Wyoming, Maryland, and New Mexico.

Leland,

As usual you supply correct information and present it in a logical manner. If
Chris can't understand this he is a lost cause.

ant...@gmail.com

unread,
Jul 15, 2015, 3:26:38 PM7/15/15
to
Say, "No thank you, I'm not interested."

If they press you, state "that's okay, I'm not interested."

Avoid explaining your responses, it weakens your position and wastes more of your time. Some salespeople are shady and keen to use manipulation tactics, like asking loaded questions. Don't take the bait.

If they continue to try and manipulate you, just get up and say "I have to go now (or something to that effect)."
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