Terrorized In Our New Home (?)
Lynn A. Holloway
where exactly to post this so I'm looking for help in as many
different directions as possible.
I am almost at the point of tears. We moved into our first own home
on August 29th. We were careful about the location. We chose a house
in a quiet, safe neighborhood. Everyone, including neighbors, stated
how uneventful life in this area was, and we took this as a good sign.
We had been living in a nearby city in a neighborhood that had a
relatively high crime rate although in the 4 years we lived there, we
were fortunate that the only "crime" was when a neighborhood 6 year old
got crazy and broke off the antenna from my car. So we figured this
would be a wonderful place to raise our children since it was a large
enough house with a fabulous back yard and a great quiet, safe
neighborhood.
On September 1st, around 1AM, someone driving by put two BB shots
through our large front window. The police speculate that, being
Labor Day Weekend, it was probably teenagers cruising around.
Tonight, exactly three weeks later, September 22nd, we arrived home
at 8:30PM after our first night out alone together without the kids
in over 2 months, to find two policemen standing outside our house.
According to our neighbor across the street, three teenagers were
examining our mailbox which is (er, was) at curbside. Apparently
while our neighbor was watching, they tied a rope around the post
of our mailbox and then across the street to the tree near his house.
Since it was dark, he only saw them crossing the street, not putting
the rope across. The next car that went by tore out our mailbox from
the curbside and splintered it into a mass only suitable for our
fireplace.
We have not had the small holes in the front window fixed because,
quite frankly, we can't afford to have the whole window replaced and
until I can find someone who can repair just the holes, it will have
to stay this way. All our money went into buying the house. We had
not planned on having to repair many "pranks" as the latest officer
referred to them.
So, outside of never leaving home and sitting at the window watching
constantly, what can we do? Our neighbors are alert and help but
everyone has to sleep at some time. We can't have a dog because of
various reasons and I'm reluctant to fence in the front yard. No one
else has had to do that. But then again, they aren't being terrorized.
Well, maybe we aren't either but it sure feels that way. Every couple
of weeks let's just go do something else to them. They don't fix it right
away so what's one more thing? (I swear the teenagers were thinking that
tonight!)
Installing an alarm system will not protect the outside of our house.
This is supposed to be a safe neighborhood. Do we just hope it goes away?
We were pretty much over the previous incident. After all, a week after
it happened the officer returned and said it'd probably be 40 years before
anything else happened here. He said almost never does anything go on in
this neighborhood. The neighbor across the road who called the police
tonight admitted that someone had tried to burglarize their house but it
had been a long time ago and unsuccessful. So how do we protect ourselves?
I'm already in search of a new mailbox (to attach to the house) and will,
despite my husband's intense dislike of them, get a timer for the light
near the front window and turn it on every time I leave the house. What
else can we do? How do I learn to overcome this living in fear in what
should be a great place? Will I ever enjoy our new house?
Any and all suggestions welcome. And thank you for your help and patience.
Lynn
---------
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Douglas S. Rand
true that you're strapped right after buying the house but the kids
probably don't think that way. You might ask your neighbors whether
they've ever had such a problem? In any case the window needn't be replaced.
As far as the mailbox this is an endemic problem with curbside mailboxes.
In one place I've lived we went through a few. Usually the vandalism isn't
so imaginative, like the poor thing just gets run over. One homeowner
around here (Boston) has even gone so far as to put the thing on cement
blocks.
Try and smile. Nobody has threatened you, or hurt you. No one has broken
in or vandalized your house.
Douglas S. Rand
Internet: <dsr...@mitre.org>
Snail: MITRE, Burlington Road, Bedford, MA
Disclaimer: MITRE might agree with me - then again...
Amateur Radio: KC1KJ
sbi...@desire.wright.edu
I consider your problem minor compared to what my family and I have had to put
up with. We live in a very nice neighborhood, everyone has a beautiful home
and five or more acres, some of us have horses and farm animals.
In the last five years we have had to put up with; picnic bench set on fire,
repeated toilet papering of our trees, pop bottle bounced off the windshield of
one of our vehicles, shoes thrown on top of roof and on and on. In the last
month one of our cars had eggs thrown at it and our barn was bombarded and
dented with rocks.
Yes, we have a VERY good idea who is doing it. Our only problem is, how to get
it stopped. Talk to the parents? We've tried that. We get the 'our kids are
good kids, you are lying' routine.
The violence and harassment in our case has been quite spaced out and
unpredictable. I have HAD IT! and sent an open letter to all our neighbors who
have teenagers explaining that we planned to sue if we found out who was
responsible. I also said we were stepping up our security and someone might
get hurt as a result. (Sitting out on the front porch with a shot gun loaded
with rock salt isn't exactly my style but it may come that!)
As a positive move we are installing motion detectors with sirens on them
outside the house and barn. They go off VERY loudly if anything of a certain
size moves in their vicinity. I am planning to scare the shit out of the
little creeps who are prowling around my house at night.
William R. Hester
vandelism??? I have found that outside floodlights are well worth the
electrical costs. Our neighbors have (mostly) put up adequate flood lights
to light the areas around our homes and the street area where many people
park their cars.
Some of the streets just a block to two away are real dark. It may not
be real neighborly, but we expect that any vandels may just go over there
where they can do their deeds in seclusion and leave our street alone.
Sad state of affairs...but protect your own first. There are now
relitively inexpensive infrared sensors that will turn on lights when they
detect heat sources moving around you house...like bodies of vandels. They
have photoelectric cells that keep them from turning on when the sun is
out...so they only react in the dark and turn the lights on.
Another suggestion...I don't know if you have a neighborhood watch group
where you live...its sponsered by the local police and gets the neighbors
together to meet each other, exchange day and night telephone numbers, and
creates a real sense of community where people watch out for each other's
house and cars. They also register your valuables and put up signs around
the block that the neighbors have the watch group in action.
(Of course, the kids stole our watch group sign... 8-) )
Best Luck...don't get paranoid just because they
are out to get you.
Bill
Mike Mahler
This may sound a bit on the extraordinary side but couldn't
you buy (used even) a video camera that has extended recording
capability (like 8 hours or so) and set it up in an appropriate
window? Nothing like cold hard evidence.
Steve Masticola
- Steve.
Arthur Chen
My sympathy goes out for you. Our house was broken into last April and
luckily my wife was out (for the first time in 3 months) during lunch
time. Within two weeks, we had someone come over and install an alarm
system -- my feeling safe to sleep at night, and when and if we have to
come home at night we know no one is in the house because of the alarm
system are defintely worth the money spent.
I know it's difficult time and may be expensive to get an alarm system.
But, it's a peace of mind. BTW, make sure you hire reputable company
with monitoring capability, if you decide to do it.
other pointers:
1) install timers to indoor and outdoor lights
2) add motion sensors to the front and backyard, so if anyone
approaches the lights will come on (these beat timers)
3) get to know your neighbors and help each other out, don't
wait until something happened....
E-mail me if you want more information on alarm systems.
==========
Jet Propulsion Laboratory Deep Space Network
4800 Oak Grove Drive Network Operations Control Center
Pasadena, CA 91109 ARPA: art...@mars.jpl.nasa.gov
==========
Jet Propulsion Laboratory Deep Space Network
4800 Oak Grove Drive Network Operations Control Center
Pasadena, CA 91109 ARPA: art...@mars.jpl.nasa.gov
K. M. Sandberg
>In article <FWQ...@dri.com>, g...@drivax.UUCP (Lynn A. Holloway) writes:
>...
(Problems with house, damage from ???)
>Yes, we have a VERY good idea who is doing it. Our only problem is, how to get
>it stopped. Talk to the parents? We've tried that. We get the 'our kids are
>good kids, you are lying' routine.
>
>> So, outside of never leaving home and sitting at the window watching
>> constantly, what can we do? Our neighbors are alert and help but
>>...
>> Installing an alarm system will not protect the outside of our house.
>>...
One solution is to look at some of the cheap b/w cameras along with
lights hooked to motion sensors (also a VCR). This will not stop
them, but it might help to get them convicted or show the parents
(along with a bill for damages). DAK has a system, but I don't know
if it can be hooked upto a VCR, which allows for 4 or 5 inputs and
will cycle through. Heathkit (it still exists since my father just
got some stuff through them, but I don't know where: LA or Sunnyvale)
has motion sensors that can turn on a remote outlet (VCR/Camera system,
but may need a relay or something).
All this might be expensive, but it might be worth it.
Kemasa.
--
If you are going to quote, quote it right!!!
"A fool plays the blues like Machine Gun Kelly - 500 notes to the bar!"
The Bluesman by Harry Chapin, Dance Band on the Titanic, side 2.
email address: sand...@ipla01.hac.com
Judy Leedom Tyrer
>How do I learn to overcome this living in fear in what
>should be a great place? Will I ever enjoy our new house?
>
>Any and all suggestions welcome. And thank you for your help and patience.
>
>Lynn
>---------
I have a saying I use at times like this, "Don't let the a**holes get you
down". And I always start with an exercise called "regaining perspective."
Now let's look at what this vandalism has really cost you. To replace the
window should cost ~$175.00. The mailbox will cost ~$75.00. THat leaves
you with a total monetary cost of $250.00. Hopefully, that doesn't represent
your entire life savings.
Now, there is a man on the net who lost his 21 mo. old to SIDS. What is
$250.00 compared to the life of your child. Your child is healthy, yes?
So, now that you have regained your perspective, don't you feel better already?
You now have the problem of preventing this from happening again. I offer
two suggestions. First, there is a light which has a motion sensor on it
(MUCH better than a timer). Whenever anyone or large thing (read cat, dog,
etc.) moves within 15 or so ft. of the light, the light comes on. It's really
nifty because it gives the effect of someone in the house turning on the light
becuase they are coming outside or heard a noise or whatever. We have one in
our garage/carport and it has cut down significantly on car abuse.
Second, let them know they aren't getting to you. Post a sign where the old
mailbox was which says "Thanks for removing the mailbox. Please call 123-
4567. I have more demolition work for you." It'll probably get a laugh.
It may get them to leave you alone. And if they are stupid enough to call
you know who did it.
Judy
Gary Fritz
front yard. These things can be had pretty cheaply. It won't help the
drive-by BB shootings (and the lights may very well get shot out) but
it will definitely startle the little creeps, and may make them decide
to find other victims.
Any idea why they're picking on you? Just the "new on the block" syndrome?
I can understand your anger and frustration, but it doesn't seem like
it's anything you have to be literally afraid of. Just some obnoxious
little punks who like to damage property occasionally. Most likely
they won't escalate to personal bodily attacks.
Good luck!
Gary
Tony Newell
Just a question on the infrared sensors...do they turn on the lights when
a cat walks by? Are they adjustable at all?
--
Tony Newell "NOTE: A darkened coating on the
(408) 435-3633 (Voice) tongue may occur from Pepto-
(408) 435-5300 (Fax) Bismol's benificial medication."
..ctnews!copilot!tony --Proctor & Gamble--
The Polymath
}with rock salt isn't exactly my style but it may come that!)
Instead of a shotgun, try a camera with high speed film and a telephoto
lens. Showing pictures of the miscreants to their parents and threatening
to show them to the police should put a stop to things. (Note: A blast of
rock salt can maim or kill you just as dead as equivalent sized shot.
Unless you can prove your life was in immediate danger you can wind up in
deep legal sh*t for using it).
Mailboxes: Mount it on something solid enough to significantly damage a
car trying to run over it. A four inch pipe filled with concrete and set
in a few feet of concrete in the ground should work nicely. Explaining
the dent in dad's radiator will keep the little creeps busy for a while.
BB holes in window: There are techniques for patching dings car
windshields. I don't know if they'd work on ordinary window glass, but
it's worth looking into. They're nearly invisible when professionally
done.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, M.A., CDP, aka: holl...@ttidca.tti.com)
Head Robot Wrangler at Citicorp(+)TTI Illegitimis non
3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 Carborundum
Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun | philabs | psivax}!ttidca!hollombe
Steve Masticola
automatically going for the technological fix. The alarms, sensors,
lights, etc. might work - but they have their weaknesses too. They're
costly, and they can be subverted (they're not going to pick up
someone driving by and shooting BBs.)
Even if they work perfectly you'll feel like you're alone in a
fortress. That'll only perpetuate your fear. You've already said you
don't want to live like that.
So here are some non-technological, assertive remedies:
- Sue the parents for the cost of the mailbox. There's an excellent
book titled "Sue the B*st*rds" that gives details on how to file a
suit in small claims court. It'll cost something to do it (about $100,
probably), but it'll teach those kids, their parents, and any other
maladaptives in the neighborhood to respect your property.
As a friend of mine says, "I make it a policy that I'm willing to
spend twice the value of what was destroyed to get satisfaction."
- Get organized. Start a neighborhood watch, or join one. Contact your
local police dept. for information on how to do this.
- Steve (mast...@athos.rutgers.edu)
Andy Deitsch
your house insurance for installing an alarm. Not only will it protect you
against theft, but if you can also have it protect you against fire and water
damage. You definitely want one that can be hooked up to a monitoring
service.
As far as setting up a booby-trap on your property, DONT do it! Even though
you are being harassed and you didn't invite the intruder onto your property,
they can sue and win if they get hurt on your property.
Sullivan
Newell) writes:
|>
|>Just a question on the infrared sensors...do they turn on the lights when
|>a cat walks by? Are they adjustable at all?
They will turn on the lights when anything warm walks by. My
25 lb. dog turns on the lights. The one I have cannot be adjusted
for sensitivity but is adjustable for how long the light
remains on after it is tripped. One thing that caught my eye
when I was reading the instructions while installing it was that
if someone is covered up, the sensor may not detect the body heat.
Great! Someone dressed head to toe in black with a ski mask
would not be detected! Seriously though, ours is very reliable.
It does go on now and then for no apparent reason. Nice thing is
you just ignore it when it gets tripped and it turns itself off
and resets the detecter automatically. Strange thing is that
it does not get tripped in daylight, only at twilight or dark.
It might have a light sensor but I didn't think it did. When I
bought mine a few years ago there were many brands available
with different features. Mine is a single unit (sensor/floodlight)
but you can just buy the sensor and use it to turn on whatever
you like, such as all the floodlights around your house or those
little sidewalk lights so you can see your way to the front door.
Most hardware stores will carry them and the box they come in usually
has suggestions for use written all over them so if you want some
ideas for setting up a sensor, just read the outside of the box
of a few different brands.
Hope this helps...
Jim Sullivan
sull...@alw.nih.gov
Dave Mc Mahan
In a previous article, g...@drivax.UUCP (Lynn A. Holloway) writes:
>I am almost at the point of tears. We moved into our first own home
>on August 29th. We were careful about the location.
Tears seems a bit drastic. The cold facts are that there is no place in
life that is 100% safe all the time. All you can do is play the odds and
pick a home that has a low probability of crime. Low does not mean zero.
>On September 1st, around 1AM, someone driving by put two BB shots
>through our large front window. The police speculate that, being
>Labor Day Weekend, it was probably teenagers cruising around.
Won't your home owner's insurance take care of that?
>Tonight, exactly three weeks later, September 22nd, we arrived home
>at 8:30PM after our first night out alone together without the kids
>in over 2 months, to find two policemen standing outside our house.
>According to our neighbor across the street, three teenagers were
>examining our mailbox which is (er, was) at curbside. Apparently
>while our neighbor was watching, they tied a rope around the post
>of our mailbox and then across the street to the tree near his house.
>The next car that went by tore out our mailbox from
>the curbside and splintered it into a mass only suitable for our
>fireplace.
This old prank is really destructive, and seems to find a place in every
young prankster's heart. Can you imagine what it could do to the car that
hit it? Very dangerous, but not much you can do after the fact. Replace
the mailbox with one that is attached to your house. It sounds to me as
if you should talk to your neighbors about being a bit more pro-active when
each of you sees something wierd going on. Turning on a porch light or
convieniently taking the dog for a walk will generally scatter a group of
teenagers to a different area, especially when the observant adult makes
a point of talking to the group by saying "Good Evening, by the way, does
anybody know the score of the last highschool football game?", or something
that requires a non-confrontational response. Kids fear recognition and
will generally go someplace else. Tying a rope across the steet and being
recognized later for it is something that they really don't think of until
they think it could happen.
>We have not had the small holes in the front window fixed because,
>quite frankly, we can't afford to have the whole window replaced and
>until I can find someone who can repair just the holes, it will have
>to stay this way.
I have never heard of being able to just fix holes without replacing the
entire glass. You can plug the holes, but they are still visible.
>So, outside of never leaving home and sitting at the window watching
>constantly, what can we do? Our neighbors are alert and help but
>everyone has to sleep at some time.
As mentioned before, one of the best ways is to get one of those flood lights
that turns on when a large warm body passes within range. The models out
on the market now are about $25 or so and can be set for angle of coverage,
sensitivity, and length of time on after tripping. They also are smart
enough to recognize daylight and won't turn on when the sun is up. As an
added bonus, they make great Christmas gifts for your spouse! :-)
> What else can we do? How do I learn to overcome this living in fear in what
>should be a great place? Will I ever enjoy our new house?
First of all, you need to relax and realize that it is all part of life.
Nobody is out to get you. Learn to be a bit more pragmatic about things
and don't take such incidents as seriously as you seem to. Nothing attracts
pranksters more than somebody who is always "trying to catch them". We used
to have a lady on our street when I was growing up that would keep a camera
ready to photograph anything she thought neighbor kids were doing wrong. Guess
who all the kids went out of their way to aggravate? Little things like
purposely walking on her lawn instead of the sidewalk, throwing a soda can
into her bushes, and generally making a nuisance of themselves because they
knew she was watching.
If you do catch some kid in the act, don't get hysterical and call in the
marines. Ask a few questions about why they were doing something and why
they thought it was fun. If they caused damage, ask them (calmly) how they
thought they would be able to make ammends. Get them to think about the effect
they are having on others, rather than just seeing everybody as another adult.
If you are out and see some kids walking down the street, take the time to say
hello to them and ask how things are going. If you take an interest in them,
they generally will leave you alone. Get to know their names and where they
live. Ask them what they think of the neighborhood. Get to be a person with
a personality to them, rather than a target with no face or name.
>Lynn
-dave
Williams
your porch light on all night? Is your street well lighted? Do you
keep your driveway and sidewalk lighted?
Good lighting - on street and outside your home - discourages potential
crimes and pranks.
Robert Wier
I have one of the Heath/Zenith models which sends an X-10
compatible signal to a unit when the light triggers. When
I first installed it, I had a classic case of an undamped
system. At night, the light would be off until a large moth
flew by. I was suprised that it triggered on this (how warm
are moths?).
Anyway, when it triggered on ( I have it set for about 5 minutes
before it turns back off again) it pulled EVERY moth from a radius
of 5 miles (just kidding) ... however, it DID pull in enough to
keep retriggering the light.
Had to back the sensitivity down quite a bit to keep this from
happening. But it sill picks me up at about 30' or so out in the
driveway.
Now if I can just figure out a way for it to tell the difference
between me and the deer that come down out of the hills :-)...
--bw
- Bob Wier
-------------- insert favorite standard disclaimers here ----------
College of Engineering
Northern Arizona University / Flagstaff, Arizona
Internet: r...@naucse.cse.nau.edu | BITNET: WIER@NAUVAX | WB5KXH
or uucp: ...arizona!naucse!rrw
Terry Gaasterland
[a description of two destructive events deleted.]
Two years ago, in a very nice, quiet, safe suburb of DC, Potomac, MD, my
parents had a similar series of experiences:
1st occurrence: in the middle of the night, someone came and chopped
down a beautiful, well-developed Chinese Red Maple in the
front yard.
2nd occurrence: a week later, chopped down the mailbox.
3rd occurrence: the next weekend, chopped down a replacement
Chinese Red Maple
4th occurrence: several weeks later scratched up my sister's 1981
Toyota station wagon door and mutilated a bush.
The first 2 times, the 'rents figured it wouldn't happen again, called the police
and the police promised to cruise through the neighborhood more often.
The third time, Dad was away at a conference and Mom, home alone, heard the
tree molesters. She went downstairs, turned the outside lights on, and called
the police. She was terrified when she realized that 4 full grown (high
school age?) boys were hanging out outside her garage with an ax chopping
down a tree.
After that, they bought a big bright (energy-eating) spotlight and placed it
so that it shines on the driveway and the part of the yard where the
ruined trees were. The light goes on every night and stays on. One night
when it was off, the 4th occurrence happened.
It's a horrible feeling to be the target of such "terrorist" activity. You
don't feel safe in your own home. No one else in the neighborhood had trouble.
My parents house is on a corner near the entrance, and a busy access road
near the corner was completed shortly before these incidents started
happening. Our thought is that with the development in the area, a
wonderfully safe suburb is now experiencing the security problems
of the big city nearby.
It's really very sad -- and it was such a NICE tree.
-- Terry
Kenneth J. Buck
Of course, one of the drawbacks to outdoor floodlights that are on all the time
are that they tend to _emphasize_ that nice red car out there (which you
wouldn't otherwise have noticed in the dark); however, that's probably less of
a problem with the locals than the random passers' by, since the locals know
what you drive, etc.
Another drawback is that the bulb is now a target - something to throw a rock
at or shoot at so it goes out - and once it's out, then the jackals are free
to play again... :-( A wire cage around the light will protect it if that's a
problem, though.
Mark Ikemoto
pranks rather than any organized, concerted effort to harass you.
Especially the mailbox prank. From my reading of the Net and talking with
people it seems that mailbox bashing is the sort of "traditional" thing
that teenagers get into. And the police have a plausible explanation for
the front-window incident. Again, probably more teenage prankdom.
I'd do three things to help prevent further problems. First is install
motion-detector lights to flood the front yard and curb with light
if anyone approaches. If you're worried about false alarms from motion
detector lights, just install regular spot lights and have them on all
night pointed out from your house toward the street (but pointed down so
they don't shine on your neighbor's house).
Second, when you're out at night, leave the TV on and have its glow flicker
on the front window so from the street, people will think someone is home.
Third, when I'm gone from the house in the daytime, I'd have my
stereo or radio turned on loud enough to be heard outside the house
(but not blast the neighborhood).
Good luck.
Mark
Louise Penberthy
>>someone else writes: [story about vandalization]
>>We have not had the small holes in the front window fixed because,
>>quite frankly, we can't afford to have the whole window replaced and
>>until I can find someone who can repair just the holes, it will have
>>to stay this way.
>
>I have never heard of being able to just fix holes without replacing the
>entire glass. You can plug the holes, but they are still visible.
In rec.autos and rec.autos.tech, they talk about patch kits for
windshields that have been pockmarked by gravel and stuff like
that. Such a kit might do the trick here. They're avaliable in
auto parts stores; you might want to check them out.
Louise Penberthy | ``I like a man who arrives before his
School of ICS, Georgia Tech | print-out.''
Atlanta, GA 30332 |
lou...@pravda.gatech.edu | `The Coca-Cola Kid'
20 James D. Corder
>
>Just a question on the infrared sensors...do they turn on the lights when
>a cat walks by? Are they adjustable at all?
>--
I don't know about cats. However, my small dog does about 1 in
10 times.
Just my$.02,
James D. Corder
...osu-cis!alix!jdc
...att!osu-cis!alix!jdc
alix!j...@cis.ohio-state.edu
Patrick Jost
>continuing the discussion of lights...
>
>Another drawback is that the bulb is now a target - something to throw a rock
>at or shoot at so it goes out - and once it's out, then the jackals are free
>to play again... :-( A wire cage around the light will protect it if that's a
>problem, though.
A better way is tempered glass or perspex (plexiglass in American?). Tempered
glass might be better for lights that generate heat, perspex is fine
for fluorescent lighting.
You can also use lights pointing upward to emphasise nice things
like trees...while still providing plenty of visibility.
There's one other thing that should be mentioned. A company called
Brigade Quartermasters (Kennesaw, GA), sells perimeter protectors.
This is a wire/thread connected to a noisemaker. Run the wire
about two feet off the ground, or just above fences people
are likely to climb. Noises will scare people off, especially
if they sound like gunshots.
PJ
--
|
Patrick Jost (PJester) | "The thief of Baghdad hides in Islington now"
|
jo...@coyote.trw.com | -Marillion (Fish)
Paul Houtz
>
>on August 29th. We were careful about the location. We chose a house
>On September 1st, around 1AM, someone driving by put two BB shots
>through our large front window. The police speculate that, being
>Labor Day Weekend, it was probably teenagers cruising around.
>Tonight, exactly three weeks later, September 22nd, we arrived home
>examining our mailbox which is (er, was) at curbside. Apparently
>while our neighbor was watching, they tied a rope around the post
>of our mailbox and then across the street to the tree near his house.
>Since it was dark, he only saw them crossing the street, not putting
>the rope across. The next car that went by tore out our mailbox from
>the curbside and splintered it into a mass only suitable for our
>fireplace.
Having been a homeowner for several years, I can give you some advice.
Try not to get too upset about this. Listen to the police. This is
probably a concidence, and one that will not occur again for a long
long time, unless your the nature of your neighborhood is changing
for some reason.
However, if it should continue, here are some factors to take into
account:
1. Is your house extremely visible from a major thoroughfare?
If so, it might explain why your home is being singled out,
rather than your neighbors.
2. Is there a streetlight close enough to light your front yard?
If there isn't, again, it might explain why your home is
being singled out. In this event, you might appeal to
your municipality to put in a streetlight, and in the meantime,
install the floodlights with the infrared sensor. They DO work.
3. DO NOT SUE THE PARENTS, DO NOT LEAVE ANY CUTE NOTES. TAKE NO
ACTION WHATSOEVER AGAINST THE PERPETRATORS. If you tell them
you have "other demolition", they will likely slit your tires
or pour gasoline on your lawn. The best thing to do is to inform
the police, and drop the matter. You don't want to draw further
attention to your home, or I can guarantee you will be visited
regularly.
4. What is your neighborhood like? Our neighborhood was developed
~ 28 years ago. neighborhoods sometimes move in cycles. Right
now, in ours, the last of the high school students graduated
last year and are going to college. We noticed a fair number
of vandalism incidents in the area 2 years ago, but they have
pretty much gone away now. Mostly the neighborhood consists
of people who are retired, and the occasional family with
small children or toddlers who have purchased homes when the
original owners passed away or sold and moved to a cheaper area.
If your neighborhood consists mainly of families of teenagers,
you may be in for a couple of years of mischief, after which
it may quiet down.
Basically, two incidents does not constitute "terrorization". Take some
simple steps to make your home less attractive to vandals, and the whole
thing will probably blow over.
P.S. We had a peeping tom who was caught looking into our bedroom windows
on two occasions. It is for this reason that I installed a burglar
alarm system, just in case he decided to try to open a window.
However, we also put blinds on all the windows and close them after
dark, and we have had no further incidents.
Hope this helps.
g...@hpsdesis.hpl.hp.com
Josh Hodas
>In article <20...@ttidca.TTI.COM>, holl...@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) writes:
>|> Mailboxes: Mount it on something solid enough to significantly damage a
>|> car trying to run over it. A four inch pipe filled with concrete and set
>|> in a few feet of concrete in the ground should work nicely. Explaining
>|> the dent in dad's radiator will keep the little creeps busy for a while.
>
>I would be liable for the damages. On the street I live on there is
>a strip of grass between the public sidewalk and the street. Some people
>place rocks there to keep people from running cars there and digging up
>the grass - something some people love to do in the early spring
>when the grass is soft from the winter thaw. I've been told that
>should a car hit a rock, the homeowner is liable for damages to the
>car.
Well, this seems a little bizzare. (Then again there are few things
more bizzare than laibility law).
By this logic, if a driver went all the way over the lawn and smashed
into the house, the homeowner would be liable for the damage to the car.
Now, there is a question about disguising a barrier in such a way that would
mislead a driver/vandal as to likely damages. A lot of legal reasoning
is based on the "reasonable expectations" of the parties involved.
So, if you mounted your mailbox on pipe filled with concrete, but then
encased it in flimsy looking balsa wood, I coud see you being liable
for something.
By a similar reasoning, this is why you put signs on a fence if it is
electrified. Some would argue you shouldn't need to since if someone
tries to climb the fence on your property they are breaking the law and
have given up the right to make a claim. But others say the transgreessor
was basing his decision on the assumption that it was an ordinary fence.
Or, to put it the way Monty Python did -
"I wasn't expecting a Spanish Inquisition..."
Josh Hodas
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Josh Hodas Home Phone: (215) 222-7112
4223 Pine Street School Office Phone: (215) 898-2911
Philadelphia, PA 19104 New E-Mail Address: ho...@saul.cis.upenn.edu
Brent Byer
>In article <20...@ttidca.TTI.COM>, holl...@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) writes:
>|> car trying to run over it. A four inch pipe filled with concrete and set
>
Run over a mailbox with a car? What an unsporting and uncreative method!
In the merry pranksterism of my youth, ... No, I better not give today's
generation any ideas.
>a strip of grass between the public sidewalk and the street. Some people
>place rocks there to keep people from running cars there and digging up ...
Yes, lots of people used these in the outskirts of Miami (mid-60's) but
they were "manufactured" as hemispherical solid concrete w/ ~10" diam.
These were affectionately called "elephant turds". There was also
a prank called "elephant turding" which, ... No, I better not say ...
Ah, youth ...
Brent Byer
Charlie Dennett
|> car trying to run over it. A four inch pipe filled with concrete and set
|> in a few feet of concrete in the ground should work nicely. Explaining
|> the dent in dad's radiator will keep the little creeps busy for a while.
I've been told that something like this is a no-no. If I were to do this,
I would be liable for the damages. On the street I live on there is
a strip of grass between the public sidewalk and the street. Some people
place rocks there to keep people from running cars there and digging up
the grass - something some people love to do in the early spring
when the grass is soft from the winter thaw. I've been told that
should a car hit a rock, the homeowner is liable for damages to the
car.
Comments?
--
Charlie Dennett | Rochester Distributed Computer Services
Mail Stop 01816 | Internet: den...@Kodak.COM
Eastman Kodak Company |
Rochester, NY 14650-1816 |
KOS...@gecrdvm1.crd.ge.com
there is a set depth or set back from the road that is
public property state,county whatever the distance depends
on the type of road and local law.
a friend of mine set up building blocks to keep people
from turning around on his lawn. and was ordered by the
county sheriff to move them back 15 feet from the road
or be issued a ticket. it stinks but that is the way it is.
Mike Mahler
>I've been told that something like this is a no-no. If I were to do this,
>I would be liable for the damages. On the street I live on there is
>a strip of grass between the public sidewalk and the street. Some people
>place rocks there to keep people from running cars there and digging up
>the grass - something some people love to do in the early spring
>when the grass is soft from the winter thaw. I've been told that
>should a car hit a rock, the homeowner is liable for damages to the car.
What a society we live in. Some kid in a car is ripping
up the grass with his tires on your property (though I'm
not sure the grass between the sidewalk and the street IS
your property) and hits a rock on your property and
sues you. Unreal.
Peter Castagna
lots of children in the neighborhood. But I'm not afraid of being terrorized,
because I once was a child in such a suburban neighborhood.
On the first day we (children) came to our new neighborhood my mother threw
a fit because I invited one of the neighborhood children in without her
approval. She reacted by throwing the boy out, not by punishing me. From
this time on she became known as the neighborhood "witch", and it was only
when she got on good terms with the parents of the children we hung around
with that the children stopped ringing doorbells at all hours, hanging toilet
paper, soaping windows, etc...
So, If you don't have kids you're in bad shape in your neighborhood: you're
weird. Secondly, if you don't at least invite the parents over you are
aloof, or a "better than thou". Finally, if you complain to the police
you're a crank. At least, this is the way it was in 1967, in a place called
Kendall Park, N.J., where a lot of Princeton professors lived, and where a
lot of high-tech people live now.
This is because children have to learn morals and law, and hearing their
parents bad-mouth you because you didn't invite them over for the house-
warming or because of some sexual thing (everybody on the block knew when
Mrs. Schwartz the divorcee was seeing someone-you can't hide an extra car)
or even just because you are obviously totally oblivious that your neighbors
exist, is grounds for being the first person on the list when the mischief
quotient hits the breaking point.
Actually , I don't think you're weird, aloof, or a crank. You're reacting
to things the way you learned. You're reacting to things in the way that
my girl-friend is going to react because you just don't know why these
things are happening.
Of course, if you bought your house from an especially beloved neighbor or
from a real crank your job's harder.
Fast fixes are:
-inviting nieces and nephews over for a few weeks, and making sure they
spend a lot of time outside
-visiting over the fence with neighbors on odd holidays
-never mentioning the pranks
-never mentioning how tired the work makes you (you can be sure that
everybody in the neighborhood thinks they work harder than a professional)
-doing your own yard work, or hiring neighborhood kids. We had
a wierd neighbor, Joe, who I personally (age 16) talked to . Up to
that time nobody ever knew him; he was mowing his lawn and I found out
that he was a loan manager at Chase World, that he was a Weekend Warrior,
and that he was actually a rather funny guy. Once the neighborhood knew
why he was never home on weekends things got a lot easier for him. The
neighborhood found out because I told my father at dinner. Actually, now
that I think of it my mother and his wife became friends shortly after-
wards (exchanging house visits -- God, was my Mom shocked to find out that
Charlene was practicing birth control, after Charlene had her second baby).
-visiting your neighbors, rather than having them visit you.
-Oh, did I mention yard work? And greeting your neighbors? Or getting your
posslq to do so?
A neighborhood is good because the neighbors are close and know
each other. You can't get the benefits without sharing the costs.
-Shields at full power, Scotty-
Peter Castagna (p...@entity.com)
Pete Holsberg
=Now, there is a question about disguising a barrier in such a way that would
=mislead a driver/vandal as to likely damages. A lot of legal reasoning
=is based on the "reasonable expectations" of the parties involved.
=
=By a similar reasoning, this is why you put signs on a fence if it is
=electrified. Some would argue you shouldn't need to since if someone
=tries to climb the fence on your property they are breaking the law and
=have given up the right to make a claim. But others say the transgreessor
=was basing his decision on the assumption that it was an ordinary fence.
Good lord!! What has our legal system come to where the rights of a
trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
Why on earth should we allow some one who is breaking the law and who is
injured because they assumed it was an ordinary fence or an ordinary
mailbox claim damages against the party they were out to injure? What
can we do about this??? <sigh>
Pete
--
Prof. Peter J. Holsberg Mercer County Community College
Voice: 609-586-4800 Engineering Technology, Computers and Math
UUCP:...!princeton!mccc!pjh 1200 Old Trenton Road, Trenton, NJ 08690
Internet: p...@mccc.edu Trenton Computer Festival -- 4/20-21/91
Kurt Guntheroth
monsters could do acts of violence will want th rip your heart out when your
dog surprises their little darlings.
Do get flood lights. The techie IR sensors are nice, but just plain old
light is a big part of the solution.
Think passive resistance. Put your new mailbox up on a railroad tie dug six
feet into the ground. Our neighborhood had a problem with somebody running
over mailboxes until he ran over the above-described one. It tipped part
way over permitting his car to run up and catch its undercarriage. Turns
out it was Dad's car... Overbuild your mailbox post and it won't come out.
Put mylar security film over your wondows and they wont break.
If you want to "catch 'em in the act", try renting a frame-at-a-time video
recorder, probably from a security company. They're too expensive to buy.
Don't count on much from this device though. Outdoors, in the dark, it won't
show faces clearly enough to convince parents.
Finally, relax. It's nasty, but it's not like they're threatening your
life. The pranks are irritating and potentially expensive, but they aren't
breaking in, or burning things, or poisoning your pets, or any of a number
of truely scary things they could be doing.
Donald P Perley
So they wouldn't let him put his roadblock on public land?
I don't have a problem with the [town,county,state] owning the
roadway. Our property starts 25 feet from the road's
centerline. It's just a little less to pay property taxes on.
Given that system though, I would have a problem with laws making the
homeowner shovel the sidewalk or maintain a lawn on this public land
between his property and the street.
-don perley
per...@trub.crd.ge.com
douglas.a.williams
> Mailboxes: Mount it on something solid enough to significantly damage a
> car trying to run over it. A four inch pipe filled with concrete and set
> in a few feet of concrete in the ground should work nicely. Explaining
> the dent in dad's radiator will keep the little creeps busy for a while.
Here's my prescription to cure mailbox bashers: Go down to the
local steel/iron dealer or scrapyard and get a length of 4" or greater
diameter rod. Since your mailbox should be about 3.5 to 4 feet off the
ground, get the rod about 7 to 8 feet long. Using a posthole digger,
make a nice tight hole for you and a few helpers to set the rod in.
No need for concrete, believe me! Cover the steel with some woodgrain
self-stick vinyl to make it look like an ordinary wimpy cedar post.
This will stop a truck, so the little creeps will be busy for a long
while explaining the dent in dad's engine block!!
1
1 1 Doug Williams
1 2 1 AT&T Bell Labs
1 3 3 1 Reading, PA
1 4 6 4 1 hiwa...@alux4.att.com
1 5 10 10 5 1
1 6 15 20 15 6 1
Russ Kepler
>[a bunch of suggestions deleted]
>
>Finally, relax. It's nasty, but it's not like they're threatening your
>life. The pranks are irritating and potentially expensive, but they aren't
>breaking in, or burning things, or poisoning your pets, or any of a number
>of truely scary things they could be doing.
OK - I'm not finished with this thread but *had* to respond to this
message. My wife mentioned it this morning as having something to
do with our own situation (Hi Judy!). But more to the point:
It *might* be true that they aren't doing anything other than expensive
and irritating 'pranks' (although a prank that could seriously injure
someone is hardly a 'prank') - but they'll move up if my experience is
any indication.
4-5 years ago we had a harmless 'prankster' in the neighborhood named
Adam. Now Adam's idea of a neat trick was to place roofing nails behind
everyone's rear tires, bomb mailboxes, place flaming sacks of shit on
doorsteps, etc. Adam's friends lived (still do) next door to me and
had lots of fun with Adam on his merrymaking rounds.
Adam moved. The kids next door stayed and continued in his footsteps.
One of the kids next door was caught (unfortunately not in the act)
after having broken into our home last summer - that was the summer of
3 break-ins and the 'backyard prowler'. We added security lights and
hoped. The prowler came back. We waited up for him and damn near
caught him. He stopped prowling.
This year we found one the of security lights broken and a plastic
shovel missing. We found a piece of the shovel and simply replaced
the sensor in the light. We later found the bulb unscrewed in the
fixture so it wouldn't light - I screwed it back in *real* tightly until
you'll have to destroy it to remove it; and now part of the nightly
routine involves testing the backyard security lights. This is done
in the company of our 2 dogs.
Anyway - 2 1/2 weeks ago we got burglarized. They got a VCR, 2 cameras,
binocs and a handgun. Fun. We are getting everything replaced and now
have a shiny new burglar alarm. There are good indications that the
kid next door was involved but no proof (police investigators' comments
were to the effect that it doesn't take a Phi Beta Kappa to know that
you should wear gloves...) This after the other wierd stuff that's
happened.
So, we live in our house with the alarm enabled, turning it on when we
go to bed, turning it off when we get up, enabling when we leave in
the morning and disabling when we return. What a life.
Hell with it - I'm moving. It's either that or living a more miserable
existence than I've always planned.
When I was a kid - I played pranks. I didn't burgle houses for drug
money, I earned it mowing lawns. I didn't need to blow up mail boxes,
I popped cans into the air with firecrackers. I didn't rip off booze
from folks houses, I conned someone old enough into buying it.
I know it isn't all kids, just a destructive minority. But that
doesn't make me feel better.
Is it me? Or is it really getting worse?
--
Russ Kepler - Basis Int'l SNAIL: 5901 Jefferson NE, Albuquerque, NM 87109
UUCP: bbx.basis.com!russ PHONE: 505-345-5232
The Polymath
}... What has our legal system come to where the rights of a
}trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
}Why on earth should we allow some one who is breaking the law and who is
}injured because they assumed it was an ordinary fence or an ordinary
}mailbox claim damages against the party they were out to injure? What
}can we do about this???
Appeal. According to my friend, the A.D.A., those cases where injured
burglars sue their intended victims and win are extremely rare (hence
newsworthy) and almost invariably overturned on appeal.
Note: An electrified fence has to be shielded against accidental contact,
usually with a surrounding ordinary fence. Otherwise a perfectly innocent
person might slip and fall against it. I suspect the courts would be very
unsympathetic towards someone who got zapped after climbing a six foot
fence topped with barbed wire and ignoring a warning sign. On the other
hand, if I slip on an icy sidewalk and fall against an electrified fence,
you can bet I'll sue the idiot who put it there, warning signs or no.
David M. LaRocque
> Good lord!! What has our legal system come to where the rights of a
> trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
Fortunately most municipalities/judges have the right to "interpret" the
laws. A few years back when I was living in Rhode Island a person shot
a burgler who was leaving his house and already off his property. The
homeowner was not prosecuted, and in fact the District Attorney said
they wanted to send a message to would-be burglers even though the law
would have allowed them to file charges against the homeowner.
-Dave
/**************************************************
* laro...@crd.ge.com (518) 387-5805
* ...!crdgw1!cetus.crd.ge.com!larocque
**************************************************/
Valerie Maslak
two car covers stolen off cars parked in front of our house, under a
streetlight; porch furniture stolen from the front porch; and then,
to cap it all, the REPLACEMENT car covers, which were cabled and
locked on the cars, were also stolen. The police take the reports
and shrug. I have an extensive alarm system on the house itself, but an
outdoor system isn't practical given the amount of street traffic on
our block. The neighbors across the street had several hanging
plants taken from their porch. I'm sick of it. Sick.
I'm sorry to hear that Albequerque is just as bad. We were thinking
of moving to Santa Fe.
Maybe New Zealand?
Valerie Maslak
Andy Soravilla
*>Good lord!! What has our legal system come to where the rights of a
*>trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
*>Why on earth should we allow some one who is breaking the law and who is
*>injured because they assumed it was an ordinary fence or an ordinary
*>mailbox claim damages against the party they were out to injure? What
*>can we do about this??? <sigh*>
Pete,
Isn't that the pits?? I even got a little upset when I saw that program on
tv about that guy who was prosecuted when his "booby trap" shotgun went off
and killed a burglar. It is true that someone other than a burglar could
have been injured/killed, but in that case he should have been punished.
However, when it was found out that it was a person committing a crime, he
should have been asked not to do it anymore or prosecuted for endangerment
or something than a felony. Please understand I am not advocating the use
of "booby traps" because the potential for innocents to get in the way is
very high, but if it is a criminal I say " caveat criminus!!"
Andy
Ellen R. Spertus
>my husband chased him down the street. He fell and sprained his ankle. He
>has never returned.
Uh, your husband or the thief?
:-)
Paul Haas/10000
> Here's my prescription to cure mailbox bashers: Go down to the
>local steel/iron dealer or scrapyard and get a length of 4" or greater
>diameter rod. Since your mailbox should be about 3.5 to 4 feet off the
>ground, get the rod about 7 to 8 feet long. Using a posthole digger,
>make a nice tight hole for you and a few helpers to set the rod in.
>No need for concrete, believe me! Cover the steel with some woodgrain
>self-stick vinyl to make it look like an ordinary wimpy cedar post.
>This will stop a truck, so the little creeps will be busy for a long
>while explaining the dent in dad's engine block!!
Whoa!! Kids don't try that at home. Remember, not everyone who runs
into a mailbox is doing it maliciously. Your goal is to make the
mailbox strong enough so that no one will want to run into it twice,
not so strong that someone swerving to miss a kid on a bike will die
if they hit your post.
Think about how fast people actually drive on your street, not what the
speed limit is. Imagine someone at that speed hitting your mailbox
so as to avoid hitting a child. Will your fortress post drive their
steering wheel into their chest?
If you're going to make something as strong as a bridge abuttment, put
some yellow barrels around it, like the highway department does. If you
live deep in a twisty subdivision where people can't drive over 35 miles
an hour, ignore this whole posting.
Don't let anger at vandals make you forget about the rest of humanity.
--
Paul Haas pa...@cimage.com (313) 677-2412
Don Watrous
> clever man who bought a monstrous boulder the size of a compact car.
> He planted it in the middle of the yard in front of the window. He
> hasn't replaced a window yet, and his house has skyrocketed in
> value...
Down at the corner of our block, there is a T intersection (more of a
Y, actually). Last summer, a drunk drove straight through the
intersection, between a tree and a phone pole, and into the side of a
friend's house. They repaired the damage and put a large boulder
(maybe 18" high, 6' in diameter) in front of the damaged section.
They were warned that if someone injured or killed themselves on the
obstacle they had placed there, they could be held responsible.
Well, six months later another clown comes flying down the street. He
hit the little embankment (no curbs), sailed *over* the boulder, took
out the 6" diameter tree, and knocked out the newly repaired wall.
Shortly later, there were several more boulders, this time piled to a
3' height. And shortly after that, the county put up one of those
steel barricades in front of the whole pile. No one's going to hit
that house again (at least, not from that angle)! :-)
What's this still doing in misc.kids?
Don
--
{backbone}!cs.rutgers.edu!watrous wat...@cs.rutgers.edu
Jonathan E. Quist
>Think about how fast people actually drive on your street, not what the
>speed limit is. Imagine someone at that speed hitting your mailbox
>so as to avoid hitting a child. Will your fortress post drive their
>steering wheel into their chest?
Gosh, I hope so. Call me callous, but I live on a 30mph street, right
at the edge of a school zone for an elementary school. Local geography
routes rush hour traffic down our street. At times it takes 5 minutes
to get out of the driveway. lots of traffic passes us at 50mph,
even though we're about 200 feet from stop signs on either side.
I like to drive fast sometimes, but I confine myself to expressways and
open highways. There's just no valid excuse for speeding in a residential
area. So kill the bastards.
Ever conciously try counting the children on your normal route to work?
Maybe I'm strange, but when I got my (only) speeding ticket at the age of 16,
I took the policeman's lecture to heart. I drove down the same road the
next day, at the same time, and saw about a dozen kids between the ages
of 5 and 10 in the 200 feet from the blind hill to the driveway where the
speedtrap was. Almost on cue a football skidded into the road in front
of me. So kill the bastards.
>Don't let anger at vandals make you forget about the rest of humanity.
Quite the reverse.
Enough sermonizing for today.
--
Jonathan E. Quist DoD #94 INTERACTIVE Systems Corporation
j...@i88.isc.com 1971 Honda CL450 Pilot Naperville, IL
{amdahl|att|masscomp|sco|sun}!laidbak!jeq
SYG
mailbox vandalism by car by putting an immovable pole in the ground...]
>I like to drive fast sometimes, but I confine myself to expressways and
>open highways. There's just no valid excuse for speeding in a residential area
[and angry comments about people who go 50 in a residential
area with blind curves and school kids around...]
One solution, which I've rarely seen done, but I believe is very effective
in lessening the number of inappropriate speeders, is for the county to
put bumper strips on the road, with the appropriate warning signs.
Anyone have any comments about this ?
Of course, the problem is to convince the officals; it's usually
hard enough to get a light or sign on dangerous streets....
Sadly, usually only after a few deaths does anyone do anything....
Ron DeBlock
<some yellow barrels around it, like the highway department does. If you
<live deep in a twisty subdivision where people can't drive over 35 miles
<an hour, ignore this whole posting.
<
This is silly! I've never seen that type of barrier surrounding utility
poles and trees. There are far more of those on most streets than mailboxes.
And they are just as strong as the "super mail boxes" suggested recently.
--
Ron DeBlock N2JSO If God had meant for Man
r...@mtunf.att.com to see the sun rise, He
!mtunf!rdb would have scheduled it
later in the day.
Michael P. Deignan
>Is it me? Or is it really getting worse?
No, Russ, its not you. It is getting worse.
Years ago, criminals didn't have the law working for them.
Today, the police are undermanned and underpaid, not to mention underpowered
when it comes to firearms, and have larger problems to deal with, like
drug traffikers. So, when it comes to petty theft and pranks, they really
"can't be bothered".
Years ago, criminals didn't have the court system working for them.
Today, the overburdened criminal justice system makes putting away the
less-serious, but still wearisome pranksters and petty criminals. So,
instead we have more probation, plea-bargaining, and less sentancing
(since, after all, the ACLU will sue the state for "overcrowded prisons"
when each [or two] convicts don't have their own room...)
Years ago, criminals didn't have "personal injury lawyers" working for
them. Today, if you attempt to defend your home and your loved ones, and
hurt or kill a criminal in the process, then you're slapped with a several
hundred thousand, if not a million dollar, lawsuit from the criminal or the
criminal's family. And yes, you *do* lose (after all, "Bubba" wasn't there
to steal anything, he was there to borrow something he needed and it would
have been returned shortly...) and either end up losing your house, or much
more in the process.
Years ago, the person who kills a burgler wouldn't be arrested and prosecuted
for murder.
-=-
Its a very sick statement on our society when the criminals have taken over,
and the innocent member of society is persecuted attempting to protect that
Thich s/he has worked so hard to obtain.
Mike Deignan
--
-- Michael P. Deignan, President -- Small Business Systems, Inc. --
-- Domain: m...@anomaly.sbs.com -- Box 17220, Esmond, RI 02917 --
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2656-Daniel R. Levy(0000000)0000
>In article <1990Oct2.0...@mccc.uucp>, p...@mccc.uucp (Pete Holsberg) writes:
>> Good lord!! What has our legal system come to where the rights of a
>> trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
>Fortunately most municipalities/judges have the right to "interpret" the
>laws. A few years back when I was living in Rhode Island a person shot
>a burgler who was leaving his house and already off his property. The
>homeowner was not prosecuted, and in fact the District Attorney said
>they wanted to send a message to would-be burglers even though the law
>would have allowed them to file charges against the homeowner.
That took care of the possible _criminal_ charges, but what about a _civil_
lawsuit? (This could be raised by the family of the burglar even if the
burglar himself was killed. In fact if the burglar died the family would be
less discouraged to press such a lawsuit since he wouldn't be alive to risk
charges and criminal punishment on this implicit admission of a crime.)
--
Daniel R. Levy * uunet!tellab5!mtcchi!levy * These views not on behalf of MTC
so far as I can remember, there is not one | ... THEREFORE BE AS SHREWD AS
word in the gospels in praise of intelligence.| SERPENTS [SEE GEN. 3] AND HARM-
-- bertrand russell [berkeley unix fortune] | LESS AS DOVES -- JC [MT. 10:16]
Paul Haas/10000
]In article <1990Oct5.0...@cimage.com> pa...@dgsi.UUCP (Paul Haas/10000) writes:
]<If you're going to make something as strong as a bridge abuttment, put
]<some yellow barrels around it, like the highway department does. If you
]<live deep in a twisty subdivision where people can't drive over 35 miles
]<an hour, ignore this whole posting.
]This is silly! I've never seen that type of barrier surrounding utility
]poles and trees. There are far more of those on most streets than mailboxes.
]And they are just as strong as the "super mail boxes" suggested recently.
New telephone poles are set back from the street. The higher the speed
limit, the farther back the poles are. Mail boxes must be at the shoulder
of the road.
When I wrote the original article, I was thinking of roads with speed
limits of 40 mph or more. I should have made that more clear.
--
Paul Haas pa...@cimage.com
D. C. Sessions
> trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
> Why on earth should we allow some one who is breaking the law and who is
> injured because they assumed it was an ordinary fence or an ordinary
> mailbox claim damages against the party they were out to injure? What
> can we do about this??? <sigh>
>
> Pete
Sorry, folks: nothing new here.
More than twenty years ago friends of the family were sued by a burglar
(the case was settled out of court by the insurance company, but their
rates went up).
It seems that the scumbag in question climbed a 6' fence to get to the
glass door in their backyard, broke (literally!) in, and grabbed the
goodies. On the way out, he took a preemptive strike at the dog which had
come to check out the noise from the alarm system. (This was _his_ version
of the story -- up to this point the dog was not involved.) As the dog in
question was a charming 65# German Shepherd bitch, this might have
represented a slight error in judgment. She became attached to the burglar
[:-)] and that was how the police found them: the dog latched onto the
thief, the thief (again, literally!) holding the bag.
The insurance company lawyers said that (a) there was no telling what a
jury might do, but (b) there was no legal obstacle to the thief ending up
with *everything* they owned. This happened in Arizona, not a state known
for sympathy to criminals; even less so then than now.
The moral of the story is clear: posession of valuable property (like, I
guess, pocket calculators) qualifies as maintaining an attractive nuisance.
Anyone who does so is responsible for the safety of unfortunate members of
society who are unable to resist the temptation.
--
| The above opinions may not be original, but they are mine and mine alone. |
| "While it may not be for you to complete the task, |
| neither are you free to refrain from it." |
+-=-=- (I wish this _was_ original!) D. C. Sessions -=-=-+
Mark Johnson
>In article <1990Oct5.0...@slc1.brl.mil> s...@slc1.brl.mil (S. Gwen Johnson) writes:
>
>> clever man who bought a monstrous boulder the size of a compact car.
>Y, actually). Last summer, a drunk drove straight through the
>intersection, between a tree and a phone pole, and into the side of a
>friend's house. They repaired the damage and put a large boulder
>(maybe 18" high, 6' in diameter) in front of the damaged section.
>They were warned that if someone injured or killed themselves on the
>obstacle they had placed there, they could be held responsible.
>
Here in Wichita, in a residential district, there is a well-known T
intersection where the homeowner, after having his house damaged several
times (it is at the end of a two-mile stretch of one way street with no
intermediate stops) erected a brick wall between his house and the street.
It has reflectors on it and is visible from at least a block away.
Nonetheless, it has been hit several times...I can recall stories of more
than one fatal accident, including a suicide (witnesses reported hearing
the car winding up half a mile back). Each time his wall gets hit, the
owner reinforces it still more. It is locally referred to by some as the
'First Street Tank Trap'. I suspect it can now withstand any reasonable
impact, probably including tactical nuclear devices ( Ok, 1/2 :-).
It's too bad that we have to go to such lengths to protect ourselves from
stupid drivers. I just don't have any other word for people who run these
kinds of speeds in a residential area.
--
Mark Johnson WB9QLR/0 NCR Peripheral Products Division
Mark.J...@Wichita.NCR.COM 3718 N. Rock Rd.
(316) 636-8189 NAR #14025 Wichita, KS 67226
Gail Matthews - San Diego Systems Engineer
If speeding is a problem in your neighborhood, why not try contacting the
local traffic control department and the local sheriff/police? Generally
the cops are more than happy to come out and do extra enforcement of
speed limits, especially in residential neighborhoods. At least, that's
been my experience.
If it becomes known that a given area is a "speed trap" folks might
slow down or avoid it...
-- gail matthews
Kurt Guntheroth
p...@mccc.edu (Pete Holsberg) says
Good lord!! What has our legal system come to where the rights of a
trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
Why on earth should we allow some one who is breaking the law and who is
injured because they assumed it was an ordinary fence or an ordinary
mailbox claim damages against the party they were out to injure? What
can we do about this??? <sigh>
Because society reserves to itself the right to punish criminals and to set
the penalties for breaking the law.
Do you think you deserve the death penalty for walking through somebody's
yard ("He was tresspassin', so I shot him...")? Or be maimed in a trap,
zapped in an electrical fence, etc?
Al Ethridge
> laro...@jupiter.crd.ge.com (David M. LaRocque) writes:
>
>
> That took care of the possible _criminal_ charges, but what about a _civil_
> lawsuit? (This could be raised by the family of the burglar even if the
> burglar himself was killed. In fact if the burglar died the family would be
> less discouraged to press such a lawsuit since he wouldn't be alive to risk
> charges and criminal punishment on this implicit admission of a crime.)
> --
reason to do him in besides the fact that he won't be robbing anyone else
Jonathan E. Quist
>If speeding is a problem in your neighborhood, why not try contacting the
>local traffic control department and the local sheriff/police? Generally
>the cops are more than happy to come out and do extra enforcement of
>speed limits, especially in residential neighborhoods. At least, that's
>been my experience.
Good suggestion, but unfortunately our 18 member police force does not have
the staff to do so on a regular basis. In fact, a block away from me is
the home of one of our officers, who works an afternoon or evening shift.
The sight of his squad car parked in front of the house has no deterrent
effect. (Maybe I should buy him a mannequin?) When they do pull someone over,
the other traffic drives past at the usual high speeds, since the officer
is already busy.
Our police force is conducting a trial with a video camera in the cars
recording radar readings superimposed over the offending vehicle.
The ticket is then issued to the owner of the vehicle by mail.
This allows the officer to process more tickets in a given
time period. Who knows? Maybe a couple hundred cars getting cited
3 or 4 times would slow the traffic down.
Mark Lawrence
} More than twenty years ago friends of the family were sued by a burglar
} (the case was settled out of court by the insurance company, but their
} rates went up).
My business law prof was a sitting superior court judge in San Diego
county. I still remember him telling us, quite seriously, that if we
were going to go the trouble of shooting a burgler that we'd better
make it fatal as the sucker would just turn around and sue us if we
didn't.
--
ma...@DRD.Com uunet!apctrc!drd!mark$B!J%^!<%/!!!&%m!<%l%s%9!K(B
ro...@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Yes,if it is fenced off and clearly marked "no tresspassing".
Jonathan E. Quist
>If the burglar is dead. He can't testify against you in court. That's one good
>reason to do him in besides the fact that he won't be robbing anyone else
Unfortunately, this presumes that the person doing the shooting is capable
of determining beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person being shot is
in fact a criminal. Some years ago, in the small suburb of Chicago where
I grew up, a homeowner fired a shotgun through his front door to get
the burglar who was trying to break in. Ended up killing his inebriated
next door neighbor, who had been dropped off in front of the wrong house
after some New Year's revelries. The people who drove him home said he
was drunk enough that he was probably trying to figure out why he couldn't
get his house key into the lock. You're right, he won't be robbing
anyone else.
Pete Holsberg
=
=p...@mccc.edu (Pete Holsberg) says
=
= Good lord!! What has our legal system come to where the rights of a
= trespasser are more significant that the rights of the "trespassee"?
= Why on earth should we allow some one who is breaking the law and who is
= injured because they assumed it was an ordinary fence or an ordinary
= mailbox claim damages against the party they were out to injure? What
= can we do about this??? <sigh>
=
=Because society reserves to itself the right to punish criminals and to set
=the penalties for breaking the law.
=
=Do you think you deserve the death penalty for walking through somebody's
=yard ("He was tresspassin', so I shot him...")? Or be maimed in a trap,
=zapped in an electrical fence, etc?
Read my posting! Nowhere did I say anything about killing a trespasser.
My comments were in regard to cases where the trespasser injures him- or
herself and then sues the trespassee for negligence. On the other hand,
I see no reason why I can't have any number of protective devices on my
property to protect my property from being invaded. I'd even be willing
to post signs announcing that my property is protected by a (a) guard
dog, (b) electric fence, (c) alarm system, (d) etc. The point is that
the trspasser has no right to be on my property in the first place.
If my life (or the lives of any people dwelling in my residence) were
threatened by a trespasser, I would do whatever I could to protect them.
("I broke into his house to steal his computer and stuff, and his dog
bit me, Judge!!")
I think you just misunderstood.
Pete
--
Prof. Peter J. Holsberg Mercer County Community College
Voice: 609-586-4800 Engineering Technology, Computers and Math
UUCP:...!princeton!mccc!pjh 1200 Old Trenton Road, Trenton, NJ 08690
Internet: p...@mccc.edu Trenton Computer Festival -- 4/20-21/91
Maxwell Anderson Hopkins
suke...@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (SYG) writes:
>someoneelse writes:
>>I like to drive fast sometimes, but I confine myself to expressways and
>>open highways. There's just no valid excuse for speeding in a
>residential area
>
> [and angry comments about people who go 50 in a residential
> area with blind curves and school kids around...]
>
>One solution, which I've rarely seen done, but I believe is very effective
>in lessening the number of inappropriate speeders, is for the county to
>put bumper strips on the road, with the appropriate warning signs.
>
>Anyone have any comments about this ?
Well, in some areas around my father's house in Wilmington DE, there are
some areas with this solution. I find it does slow down the traffic for
people in cars that need to take them slow. However, I think it makes
the 4x4 much more fun.
Maxwell A. Hopkins
"Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
-Sigmund Freud(sp?)
Mike Mahler
Bad training. The dog should have went for the juglar. 8-}
al...@zack.wv.tek.com
it quite often. I was trying to come up with "creative" ideas to slow
the speeders down. One idea involve controlling a stop light with a
car speed sensor. If the sensor identified a car traveling over the
speed limit, it would change the light to red. That way the fastest
way to travel would be to go at the posted speed limit. One problem
is you would have to leave both lights red for a while in case there
was a pedestrian crossing at the time.
Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
Alan L. Zimmerman
Esther Lumsdon
>My business law prof was a sitting superior court judge in San Diego
>county. I still remember him telling us, quite seriously, that if we
>were going to go the trouble of shooting a burgler that we'd better
>make it fatal as the sucker would just turn around and sue us if we
>didn't.
I agree with the action, but not with the reason. If the burglar is
dead, the police hear 1 story. If the burglar is alive, the police,
attourneys, judge and jury hear 2 stories.
I have never been at home during a burglary. I cannot accurately predict
what my actions would be in that situation. I hope that, should that
happen, I choose wisely and survive the incident.
--
------ Esther Lumsdon lum...@dtrc.dt.navy.mil or lum...@oasys.dt.navy.mil
------ or lumsdon%dtrc.n...@uunet.uu.net ^Annapolis, Maryland
After 18-Oct-1990, est...@verdix.com <- Chantilly, Virginia
Girl Scout cookies arrive in Annapolis November 2nd!
Cameron Simpson
| >>I like to drive fast sometimes, but I confine myself to expressways and
| >>open highways. There's just no valid excuse for speeding in a
| >residential area
| > [and angry comments about people who go 50 in a residential
| > area with blind curves and school kids around...]
| >
| >One solution, which I've rarely seen done, but I believe is very effective
| >in lessening the number of inappropriate speeders, is for the county to
| >put bumper strips on the road, with the appropriate warning signs.
|
| some areas with this solution. I find it does slow down the traffic for
| people in cars that need to take them slow. However, I think it makes
| the 4x4 much more fun.
The speed humps approach works fairly well. There's a suburban area
near where I used to live which adopted this approach, partly because
of fast drivers and but mostly because it was (is!) a popular side street
commuting route. Anyway, it's _still_ faster to driver through the
side streets along the main route (just barely, but certainly more
interesting). With vigourous speeed changes it doesn't even slow things
down much (the visibility is very good in these streets - it's not your
blind corner situation). Lots of fun.
What was even better was their original approach which was to install
sets of chicanes (sp?) viz:
-------------------+--------+-----------------
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
+ \ |
|\ \_|
| \
| \
| \
| \
| \
----------------+------+----------------------
The sharpness is exaggerated. There was only room for one car to pass.
It is possible to do the ones where the points overlap (as above) quite
briskly, because they don't overlap much. The earlier variety didn't
overlap at all. In fact, for most cars the points were separated by more
than the wheel width (though very little more). For those of us who knew
how wide our cars were these were great. A number of people I knew would
go out of their way to drive through these gems...
- Cameron Simpson
cam...@spectrum.cs.unsw.oz.au
John Opalko, N7KBT
>
> [ homeowner misjudges the situation and blows away his inebriated next-door
> neighbor who is trying (unsuccessfully) to get into the wrong house ]
As long as the potential intruder is outside trying to get in, there's no
need for immediate drastic action. Dial 911 and let the cops handle it. The
moment he gains entry, however, he's fair game as far as I'm concerned.
Also, once he's in, it should be obvious whether he's a burglar or just old
Henry with a snootfull.
Phil Ngai
|> Do you think you deserve the death penalty for walking through somebody's
|> yard ("He was tresspassin', so I shot him...")? Or be maimed in a trap,
|> zapped in an electrical fence, etc?
|
| Yes,if it is fenced off and clearly marked "no tresspassing".
Suppose your house is on fire and you're trapped inside. I try
to go in to rescue you and get caught in your trap or killed by
your fence.
Nice situation?
--
The Bill of Rights isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
richard welty
*Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
believe it or not, but one cause of excessive speed on these
residential roads is to set the speed limit too low. the effect
is to create a lack of respect for the speed limit in the minds
of the drivers, and so they pay no attention. it is a commonly
believed fallacy that changing a speed limit sign can change
the typical choice of speed in the way desired; little publicized
Federal studies show that `just changing the speed limit' is
ineffective (heavy enforcement doesn't work all that well either.)
it is necessary to change the nature of the road in some way to
affect driver behaviour; one can allow the road to deteriorate;
one can add well chosen signals and stop signs; and so forth.
i had an interesting conversation with an officer who was at the
time in charge of dwi and speeding enforcement in a albany ny
area community once; he said that anytime they set up a speed trap
in a residential neighborhood in response to resident's complaints,
invariably the first drivers they caught included the residents
who filed the complaints. the point being that people really don't
keep track of their speeds that well, and the same person who
complains about speeders in their neighborhood may well unknowingly
be one of the very speeders that is a problem, and often is.
speeding control in residential areas is a tricky business, and
the simple, obvious approaches aren't particularly effective.
richard
--
richard welty 518-387-6346, GE R&D, K1-5C39, Niskayuna, New York
we...@lewis.crd.ge.com ...!crdgw1!lewis.crd.ge.com!welty
``We're in a road movie to Berlin, can't drive out the way we drove in''
-- They Might Be Giants
Maxwell Anderson Hopkins
(richard welty) writes:
>In article <93...@orca.wv.tek.com>, al...@zack.WV.TEK.CO writes:
>*Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
>
>believe it or not, but one cause of excessive speed on these
>residential roads is to set the speed limit too low. the effect
>is to create a lack of respect for the speed limit in the minds
>of the drivers, and so they pay no attention. it is a commonly
>believed fallacy that changing a speed limit sign can change
>the typical choice of speed in the way desired; little publicized
>Federal studies show that `just changing the speed limit' is
>ineffective (heavy enforcement doesn't work all that well either.)
>it is necessary to change the nature of the road in some way to
>affect driver behaviour; one can allow the road to deteriorate;
>one can add well chosen signals and stop signs; and so forth.
Personally I am not familiar with these studies but I would like to
give the example of th town that I live in, Media Pa. In '86 - '88 the
town averaged about 30 fatal accidents a year on a one mile long strip
of road. This is a VERY heavily traveled road, it connects two area
malls and anyone who shops usually check out both of them, and during
this period the posted speed was 35 MPH. However, the only people who
travel at that speed were the police, most of the population traveled at
45 MPH, because the lights at every intersection were timed for this
speed, well three of the six for each direction. After these appalling
statistics the town reduced the speed limit to 25 MPH and retimed the
lights for 35 MPH ( this is IMOH the optimum speed because all six
lights can be timed for both directions). These changes have reduced the
fatal accidents to 14 in '89 and 11 so far this year. However I cannot
say that the reduction can come from the changes alone, for example
there has been a large change in the number of people wearing seatbelts,
etc. I am fairly certain of these statistics because I am on the local
heavy rescue squad and have been depressed from the lack of work :>)
I do believe that the best answer for speed reduction is installing
stop lights at intersections, and timing them for a slow speed.
Maxwell A. Hopkins
"Experience does not ever err, it is only your judgment that errs in
promising itself results which are not caused by your experiments."
-Leonardo da Vinci (c. 1510)
Fred Belanger
In article <1990Oct12.0...@amd.com>, ph...@brahms.amd.com (Phil Ngai) writes...
>>> Yes,if it is fenced off and clearly marked "no tresspassing".
>
>Suppose your house is on fire and you're trapped inside. I try
>to go in to rescue you and get caught in your trap or killed by
>your fence.
>
Where do I buy a "killer fence"? :^) :^)
I can't train mine to kill anyone... :^)
(maybe I forgot the machine guns and barbed wire...) :^)
>Nice situation?
>
>--
>The Bill of Rights isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
When criminals have more rights than the victims, something's wrong here,
which is the case today...
================================================================================
| Fred Belanger | Reply to: bela...@hpstek.dec.com |
| Digital Equip. Corp. |------------------------------------------------------|
| 200 Forest St. | Disclaimer: I assume total irresponsibility for the |
| Marlboro, Mass. USA | opinions stated here, they're mine, and you can't |
| 01752 | have them! So there!!! |
| 508-467-7995 | "we're on a road to nowhere, come on along..." |
================================================================================
Jay Ts
> *Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
> Richard Welty writes:
> speeding control in residential areas is a tricky business, and
> the simple, obvious approaches aren't particularly effective.
What's wrong with going fast, anyway?
As long as the traffic is safe, I don't care if it goes through my
neighborhood at the speed of light. (And maybe some does! :-)
Jay Ts
uunet!pdn!tscs!metran!jay
Robert T. Weverka
In article <93...@orca.wv.tek.com>, al...@zack.WV.TEK.CO writes:
*Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
I slow them down by driving 25mph through the neighborhood (the speed limit).
I love to watch in my rear view mirror as the thwarted speeders back up
behind me. Yes, I get an occasional tailgaiter/hornblower, but that just
makes it all the more satisfying.
-Ted
scott
SIGH, another bonehead highway vigilante. How many other laws do you take into
your own hands, hmm?? Lynched any good burglars lately?? And OF COURSE you've
never ONCE exceeded the speed limit in your entire saintly life, so you are
entirely justified in blocking everyone else's path.
I wish idiots like you would leave the law enforcement to the POLICE.
--
Scott Coleman kh...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Wanted: Specs on the edit control protocol for the Panasonic AG-1960 VCR. If
you have them or know where I may find them, PLEASE email me! Thanks!!
Stephen E. Collins
>In article <28...@boulder.Colorado.EDU> wev...@sashimi.Colorado.EDU (Robert T. Weverka) writes:
>>I slow them down by driving 25mph through the neighborhood (the speed limit).
>I wish idiots like you would leave the law enforcement to the POLICE.
Yes! When people besides the police start obeying the laws, we'll
have an anarchy on our hands! Next thing you know, people will be
stopping for stop signs and signaling turns! Then what???
Stephen E. Collins
s...@boombox.micro.umn.edu
Robert T. Weverka
In <1990Oct13.1...@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> sc...@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) writes
|In article <28...@boulder.Colorado.EDU> wev...@sashimi.Colorado.EDU (Robert T.
|Weverka) writes:
|>
|>In article <93...@orca.wv.tek.com>, al...@zack.WV.TEK.CO writes:
|>*Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
|>
|>I slow them down by driving 25mph through the neighborhood (the speed limit).
|
Perhaps you missed the start of the thread, or I should have included more
background.
We are talking about my neighborhood where my children play. Unsafe
speeders have taken over using these streets for through traffic. Police
use the radar once a month, write a few tickets and go away. The speeders
stay.
I am not a vigilante. I am driving in my own neighborhood, I am driving
the speed limit, I am not impeding lawfull traffic. This is not taking the
law into my own hands as you suggest. If I were to drive faster than the
posted speed limit to accomidate speeders on my tail that would be breaking
the law.
I suggest if you want to get speeding through traffic out of your neighborhood
, organize some neighbors to all obey the posted limits inspite of assholes
tailgating and cursing you for blocking their way through your neighborhood
at breathtaking speeds. If enough people slowed to the posted limit the
speeder might get back on the highway and out of your neighborhood.
scott
>|>I slow them down by driving 25mph through the neighborhood (the speed limit).
>|
>|SIGH, another bonehead highway vigilante.
> (rest of flame deleted)
>
>Perhaps you missed the start of the thread, or I should have included more
>background.
>We are talking about my neighborhood where my children play. Unsafe
>speeders have taken over using these streets for through traffic. Police
>use the radar once a month, write a few tickets and go away. The speeders
>stay.
> I am not a vigilante. I am driving in my own neighborhood, I am driving
>the speed limit, I am not impeding lawfull traffic. This is not taking the
>law into my own hands as you suggest.
You also mention the immense satisfaction you derive from these speeders
queueing up behind you. It leads to the obvious conclusion that your motives
are not entirely for the safety of children.
Think for a moment about what effect your moving roadblock tactics have. OK,
so you slow the speeder down for a block or two. You certainly succeed in
pissing him off. This virtually guarantees that he will pass you (no doubt
with the gas pedal floored) at the first opportunity. The other driver's anger,
which gives you so much satisfaction, may cloud his judgement. In his now
heightened desire to get around you, he might decide to pass you in a situation
where it isn't safe. Now, suppose that because you were blocking him, he pours
his anger through the gas pedal and is now speeding twice as fast through your
neighborhood than he would have otherwise? Suppose further that because of his
increased speed, he maims or kills that child instead of merely knocking her
down when he hits her? Not your fault, you say? Perhaps. But enforcing the
speed laws is not your job, no matter where it is and no matter how much
personal satisfaction you may derive from it.
Be a mature and considerate driver - stay out of the other driver's way. If
you feel that police protection in your neighborhood is lacking, take it up
with your local PD. Don't take the law into your own hands - this is nothing
short of sinking to the childish level of the speeder you are trying to
thwart.
>If I were to drive faster than the
>posted speed limit to accomidate speeders on my tail that would be breaking
>the law.
True, but no one is asking you to break any laws. Just pull over so that the
driver may pass you safely and be on his way. Practically all streets are wide
enough so that two cars may pass, so there's no need for you to ever break
the speed laws.
Note that I am *NOT* supporting the speeders; I fully agree that what they
are doing is unsafe, and should be stopped. I am merely pointing out that
your chosen method for doing so is also unsafe (perhaps more unsafe), and
smacks of vigilanteism.
Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO
>Think for a moment about what effect your moving roadblock tactics have. OK,
>so you slow the speeder down for a block or two. You certainly succeed in
>pissing him off. This virtually guarantees that he will pass you (no doubt
>with the gas pedal floored) at the first opportunity. The other driver's anger,
>which gives you so much satisfaction, may cloud his judgement. In his now
>heightened desire to get around you, he might decide to pass you in a situation
>where it isn't safe. Now, suppose that because you were blocking him, he pours
>his anger through the gas pedal and is now speeding twice as fast through your
>neighborhood than he would have otherwise? Suppose further that because of his
>increased speed, he maims or kills that child instead of merely knocking her
>down when he hits her? Not your fault, you say? Perhaps. But enforcing the
>speed laws is not your job, no matter where it is and no matter how much
>personal satisfaction you may derive from it.
>
>Be a mature and considerate driver - stay out of the other driver's way. If
>you feel that police protection in your neighborhood is lacking, take it up
>with your local PD. Don't take the law into your own hands - this is nothing
>short of sinking to the childish level of the speeder you are trying to
>thwart.
That's a load of unlikely suppositions without substantiation. On the other
hand I know that if the speeders get pissed off enough, they go elsewhere.
I will not pull over so some gear-head can use my neighborhood as a raceway.
Endangering mine and my neighbor's children _makes_ it my business and I will
do anything legal to slow them down. Having the police run radar traps is
part of it. They always seem too busy between 7:30-8:30 AM and 4:45-5:30 PM
during the worst of it, however. The worst speeders also have radar
detectors on (I can see the indicators).
/pbp
--
Paul Pomes
UUCP: {att,iuvax,uunet}!uiucuxc!paul Internet, BITNET: pa...@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu
US Mail: UofIllinois, CSO, 1304 W Springfield Ave, Urbana, IL 61801-2910
Benjamin Ellsworth
One correspondent writes:
> I slow them down by driving 25mph through the neighborhood (the speed
> limit). ...
Scott Coleman writes:
> SIGH, another bonehead highway vigilante. How many other laws do you
> take into your own hands, hmm??
So Scott, when did obeying the law become synonymous with being a
vigilante? This fellow chooses to obey the law, and you're all hot and
bothered. Are you and anarchist or what?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Benjamin Ellsworth b...@cv.hp.com
All relevant disclaimers apply.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
System Janitor
> driver may pass you safely and be on his way.
The queued up speeders are all driving in an unsafe manner (speeding). Then
they start driving safely when I pull over and let them pass.
What are you smoking?
-Mike
richard welty
*
*In article <93...@orca.wv.tek.com>, al...@zack.WV.TEK.CO writes:
**Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
*I slow them down by driving 25mph through the neighborhood (the speed limit).
*I love to watch in my rear view mirror as the thwarted speeders back up
*behind me. Yes, I get an occasional tailgaiter/hornblower, but that just
*makes it all the more satisfying.
i disagree with those who are flaming robert about vigilantism, but
i would like to point out that as drivers, we should always be wary
of antagonizing others while we're piloting 3000 lb moving pieces of
metal. you never know when the person you piss off is going to turn
out to be a certifiable lunatic. my girlfriend foolishly pissed off
someone that way saturday night; fortunately there was no actual
damage to either people or vehicles in the incident, but i had
predicted that the guy wouldn't take well to the situation, and wasn't
suprised in the least by his deciding to drive down the shoulder of
the interstate to show what a real man he was. i have yet to get
across to allison why the move she made wasn't that smart, either.
it may feel good to be able to sit there and be smug about what you're
doing, but there is always the risk that the person you piss off
will turn out to be crazy.
sigh,
richard welty
*> In article <93...@orca.wv.tek.com>, al...@zack.WV.TEK.CO writes:
*> *Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
*> Richard Welty writes:
*> speeding control in residential areas is a tricky business, and
*> the simple, obvious approaches aren't particularly effective.
*What's wrong with going fast, anyway?
there is nothing wrong with driving fast, *as long as* you don't
outdrive your vision, or current traffic conditions. in a
residential neighborhood, your `vision' must factor in your
ability to see, say, children and pets dashing out from the
side of the road.
*As long as the traffic is safe, I don't care if it goes through my
*neighborhood at the speed of light. (And maybe some does! :-)
ahh, but the question is how do we determine `safe'?
it turns out that there are some well-understood but rarely-applied,
metrics for determining `safe'. the one advocated by the Federal
Highway Administration (FHWA) is called the 85th percentile rule.
the basic premise behind this rule is to survey the speeds on the
stretch of roadway in question, to determine the distribution of
speeds traveled. it usually proves to be the case that there
is a small percentage of extremely fast drivers, but the vast
majority of drivers cluster around a safe speed, and they do
so in a fairly instinctive fashion (without regard for the speed
limit signs, as it happens.) the 85th percentile rule is based
on this fact; the notion is to set the speed limit so that
85 or 90 percent of the traffic is traveling at a legal speed.
one interesting sidelight is that setting the speed limit at
the 85th percentile may cause the extreme speeds of the really
fast drivers to drop; i am firmly convinced that there is one
residential road on my daily commute that would see a drop in
the more extreme speeds if the limit were raised from 30 to
either 35 or 40 (some drivers currently make 50mph or higher;
the 30mph limit is clearly absurd, but 50mph is equally absurd
in the opposite direction. but convincing the local residents
that raising the speed limit would solve their problem is a
completely impossible task. sigh.)
this issue has been studied at great length over the past 20 years;
repeated studies have reinforced the basic notions behind this
rule. most recently, a FHWA study entitled `Speed Zoning in America'
showed, rather conclusively, that speed limit signs have very little
effect on the speeds selected by the vast majority of drivers, and
also showed that drivers in the 50th to 85th percentile range have
the lowest probability of being involed in fatal accidents. there
are so few drivers about the 85th that thorough stats are hard to
come up with, although there is a hint of decidedly increased
likelyhood of involvement in fatal accidents. for drivers in the
30th percentile and lower groups, the likelyhood of accident
involvement is strikingly and disturbingly high (much worse
than the fragmentary stats on 90th percentile and up drivers),
and their accidents are very likely to be multiple-car accidents.
i freely admit that this is all based on postive statistical
correlation, and can only speculate on causality. nonetheless,
the correlations are interesting ones.
one important note, on a point which is often misunderstood.
speed limit signs have little effect on speeds selected; this
is a proven fact (the oft-repeated bit about `drivers always
go 10 mph over the limit' is a myth; there is no basis for it
in the collected evidence of 20 years of FHWA research.) you
can change the speed by adding traffic control devices (blinkers,
stop lights, stop signs) or by changing the nature of the
roadway. these are the only things that work. note that
drivers are apparently sensitive to residential areas; speeds
will drop as housing density increases over time.
Geoff Miller
>you never know when the person you piss off is going to turn
>out to be a certifiable lunatic.
I agree. Some lady tailgated me and hit her high beams awhile back because
she didn't appreciate my having the gall to merge from an on-ramp in front
of her. This particular on-ramp dumps you onto the highway without much
distance to accelerate beforehand, and for that reason most people who are
familiar with that stretch of road move into the left lane as they approach
the area. It never occurred to her that there was a traffic light a short
distance down the road, and that it would probably be red when we got there.
We stopped at the light and I got out and read her the riot act with my
nose about an inch from her CRX's window. Definitely bad headwork on her
part; I could've been an axe murderer for all she knew, and here she was
antagonizing a total stranger.
>it may feel good to be able to sit there and be smug about what you're
>doing, but there is always the risk that the person you piss off
>will turn out to be crazy.
I've toyed with the idea of keeping a prominently-marked gasoline can full
of water in my trunk, so that I can dump it over someone's car when they
piss me off. I envision some twit running from his car screaming as I stand
there grinning, fumbling with a box of kitchen matches. Of course, I
wouldn't actually do that; freaking someone out that badly has *got* to be
illegal, even if no actual damage is done. Pity...
Geoff
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
Geoff Miller + + + + + + + + Sun Microsystems
geo...@purplehaze.sun.com + + + + + + + + Milpitas, California
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
richard welty
in response to my (richard welty) references to FHWA studies about
speeds, and comments about raising the limit to reduce speeds.
Maxwell gives an interesting example from his current residence, which
is worthy of some discussion.
* In '86 - '88 the
*town averaged about 30 fatal accidents a year on a one mile long strip
*of road. This is a VERY heavily traveled road, ..., and during
*this period the posted speed was 35 MPH. However, the only people who
*travel at that speed were the police,
really? i've not noticed any tendency for local police to obey
speed limits with any greater frequency than other drivers. perhaps
they were ordered to by their department or something. normal police
compliance with limits is worse, if anything, than other drivers,
because they run little or no risk of getting tickets.
* most of the population traveled at
*45 MPH, because the lights at every intersection were timed for this
*speed, well three of the six for each direction. After these appalling
*statistics the town reduced the speed limit to 25 MPH and retimed the
*lights for 35 MPH ( this is IMOH the optimum speed because all six
*lights can be timed for both directions). These changes have reduced the
*fatal accidents to 14 in '89 and 11 so far this year. However I cannot
*say that the reduction can come from the changes alone,
actually, a good case can be made that the improvement was largely
due to the light retiming, and that the speed limit change was
almost entirely irrelevant. it's normally hard to separate these
things out when multiple changes are made at the same time, but
the FHWA study `Speed Zoning in America' did extensive surveys of
speed limit changes made in isolation, and found no evidence that
such changes had any effect on typical speeds. i'll wager that if
they raised the speed limit back to 35mph to match the light timing,
that speed limit compliance would be excellent, and that the average
speeds would not alter significantly. the changes in the traffic
control devices made the difference.
* for example
*there has been a large change in the number of people wearing seatbelts,
*etc.
this also would have a contributory effect; are there concrete
studies showing an improvement in seat belt usage, or is it just
guess work.
* I do believe that the best answer for speed reduction is installing
*stop lights at intersections, and timing them for a slow speed.
i'd agree that this is very effective, whereas changing the posted
limit is ineffective. also, in more residential areas, putting
in the occasional stop sign is very worthwhile, if appropriate
intersections may be found. my local community (troy ny) has been
putting more in, but unfortunately some of their choices have been
nonsensical (e.g., the corner next to my house has been a 2-way
stop since before i moved, but confused drivers often treat it as
a 4-way; but they won't put in the other two stop signs, which
would merely be a confirmation of what is already reality.
however, certain other corners which had satisfactory and effective
2-way stops had unneeded conversions to 4-way. i don't think they
know what they are doing.)
Mike Mahler
>sc...@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott) writes:
>Yes! When people besides the police start obeying the laws, we'll
>have an anarchy on our hands! Next thing you know, people will be
>stopping for stop signs and signaling turns! Then what???
Insurance companies wouldn't be necessary.
Stuart Liddle
>In article <28647...@lewis.crd.ge.com>, we...@lewis.crd.ge.com
>(richard welty) writes:
>>In article <93...@orca.wv.tek.com>, al...@zack.WV.TEK.CO writes:
>>*Anyone else have ideas for slowing drivers down?
>>
>>believed fallacy that changing a speed limit sign can change
>>the typical choice of speed in the way desired;
>
speeding was prevalent...]
>statistics the town reduced the speed limit to 25 MPH and retimed the
>lights for 35 MPH ( this is IMOH the optimum speed because all six
>lights can be timed for both directions). These changes have reduced the
>fatal accidents to 14 in '89 and 11 so far this year.
After reading some of this thread I have my own story to relate of how to
stop speeding in residential neighborhoods. There is a stretch of road that
runs parallel to the freeway on the way to the Boeing plant. It runs through
a residential area but is a main two-lane road and had only two stop signs
between where people would exit the freeway (to avoid the slowdown going over
a hill) and the plant. The people in the neighborhood complained about the
traffic in the mornings and afternoons, they received little or no response
from the police or county officials. So, they organized a little demonstration.
Every day for about a week, they would walk across the street at rush-hour.
Just a few people every block or so would cross the street and stop traffic
enough to break the rhthym. Shortly after doing this, several more stop
signs were installed along this stretch of road thereby diminishing its
effectiveness as a freeway bypass alternative.
An example of creative demonstrating/democracy/vigilantism in action.
Stuart Liddle (206) 865-6559 (wk)
Boeing Computer Services ....bcstec!voodoo!stu
M/S 7K-20, P.O. Box 24346, Seattle, WA 98124-0346
* "I do not know what I do not know." - Alan Arkin, (movie unknown)
* "You can never turn your back on your face."
* "How can you be in two places at once, when you're not anywhere at all."
Obusek
-In article <1990Oct6.0...@sci.ccny.cuny.edu>
-suke...@sci.ccny.cuny.edu (SYG) writes:
->someoneelse writes:
->>I like to drive fast sometimes, but I confine myself to expressways and
->>open highways. There's just no valid excuse for speeding in a
->residential area
->
-> [and angry comments about people who go 50 in a residential
-> area with blind curves and school kids around...]
->
->One solution, which I've rarely seen done, but I believe is very effective
->in lessening the number of inappropriate speeders, is for the county to
->put bumper strips on the road, with the appropriate warning signs.
->
->Anyone have any comments about this ?
-
As the driver of a car with extremely little ground clearance (old corvette),
this solution irritates me intensely. Instead of limiting my progress
to a steady 25mph (which I do myself in residential areas), I am reduced
to crawling over these bumps at about 2mph!
I will drive miles out of my way through other residential neighborhoods
in order to avoid these!
Brenda O'Busek
George Jefferson
--
-george @sol1.lrsm.upenn.edu
George Jefferson
I will drive miles out of my way through other residential neighborhoods
in order to avoid these!
Date: 17 Oct 90 04:20:44 GMT
References: <20...@ttidca.TTI.COM> <sb4snze00...@andrew.cmu.edu> <38...@oasys.dt.navy.mil>
Sender: ne...@netnews.upenn.edu
Reply-To: je...@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (George Jefferson )
Organization: University of Pennsylvania
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George Jefferson
George Jefferson
George Jefferson
George Jefferson
George Jefferson
George Jefferson
Robert T. Weverka
First let me thank you for a constructive argument. It furthers the debate
so much more than a flame.
Scott Coleman argues, convincingly, that it is better to pull over to let
speeders zoom by,.than to continue at the speed limit holding them up.
He notes that the angered driver is more dangerous than the unimpeded speeder.
I shall try your suggestion to pull over to let them zoom by.
Does anyone know how to find out when is our next neighborhood bimonthly Police
Radar visit? :):)
-Ted
Dave Marulli
the speeders:
In many instant neighborhoods around here, they fight this problem by putting
up stop signs at almost every corner. You may still get the occasional person
who drives 'digitally' (you know, the person who either goes 0 MPH or 60 MPH)
and will speed from corner to corner, but in most cases, the stop signs
serve to eliminate the long stretches of road that speeders like.
Talk to the town and see if they can't put up a couple stop signs.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dave Marulli Somewhere in here should
Eastman Kodak Co. be a .sig file. Anybody
Rochester N.Y. seen mine?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
George Jefferson
George Jefferson
Donald P Perley
>To get back to the original poster's request for suggestions on how to stop
>the speeders:
>In many instant neighborhoods around here, they fight this problem by putting
>up stop signs at almost every corner.
> ... in most cases, the stop signs
>serve to eliminate the long stretches of road that speeders like.
>
>Talk to the town and see if they can't put up a couple stop signs.
They also eliminate the long stretches that non-speeders and bicyclists
like. What you are doing is making the road less functional, wasting gas,
and wearing out brakes.
The extra stop signs penalize everyone equally, therefore they penalize the
speeder. That makes a lot of sense. Why wait for the intersection?
Just put a few stop signs in the middle of the block!
-don perley
per...@trub.crd.ge.com