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New HDD, has corrupted Data - AGAIN
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ja...@nospam.com
Dec 16, 2017, 2:26:52 PM12/16/17
to
Ok, As most of you know, I had a partition go bad on one of my drives
and I lost much of the data on it, because I did not have a current
backup. I got rid of that hard drive, even after a re-format showed it
to be usable and not have bad sectors.
This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001. which originally came
with Windows 2000. I've upgraded this machine many times and have used
it for years. I do have Win2000 dual bootable on it, but 95% of the time
I boot and use Win98se. (I have this crossposted to the XP group because
of the lack of activity on the Win98 group).
Anyhow, after that partition got damaged, I unplugged that second hard
drive (Slave drive) and just used the first drive (bootable one). The
first drive is a 120gb with four partitions. The second drive was also a
120gb with three partitions. The partition that went bad, was the G:
partition (first partition on second HDD).
I have not had any problems with the first HDD at all.
After removing that defective second HDD, I put it aside hoping to
recover data from it, and I plugged a 160gb HDD into the second IDE
connector and partitioned it. It did not take long for that second drive
to give me error messsages showing data corruption. I did not have much
on that drive, so I just copied it to space on the first HDD. I did
however, suspect that was because I know that Win98 does not allow
drives larger than 120gb (actually 132gb).
I bought another 120gb drive, and just recently installed it. I had not
yet put my original data back on it, nor my rebuilt data from G: (which
I all have on en external USB drive).
This new drive was partitioned into three partitions again. (G: H: I:).
The G: pattition was still empty. The H: partition I was using for
downloading, and contained about 25 downloads, mostly just small .JPG
files and a few .PDF files.
The I: partition contained a copy of my Agent newsreader which I copied
there, as a backup, while I was changing some of Agent's settings.
Yesterday I was defragging the first drive's partitions, when I decided
to defrag the H: partition, since I had moved around some of the
downloaded files. DEFRAG told me this partition had errors and I needed
to run Scandisk. Scandisk reported crosslinked files between the
DOWNLOAD folder and the RECYCLED folder. (Note, I DO NOT use the
Recycled folder, I have it set to immediately delete files.
I ran NORTON DISK DOCTOR (rather than Scandisk) to fix this, and it did
fix it, but then said that the RECYCLED folder existed but had no space
on the HDD. I could not delete the Recycled folder. Since I had already
copied all my downloads to another place (as a backup), I just
reformatted that H: partition.
For the heck of it, I ran DEFRAG on the I: partition (which only
contained a backup of my AGENT folder. -Once again, I got a notice to
run Scandisk, which showed duplicates of ALL these files in the RECYCLED
folder. And said it contained crosslinked files. Since I did not need
that backup of Agent anymore, I just reformatted that partition too.
Why is this second HDD getting all corrupted? This is a new drive, and I
also replaced the IDE cable with a new one (with 80 wires, rather than
the old one that had 40 wires).
I'm starting to wonder if the motherboard itself is failing (or at least
the built in IDE board portion of it).
I do have the drive jumpers set properly, to MASTER on the first HDD and
to SLAVE on the second drive.
I have run two HDDs on this computer for years with no problems. Now it
seems I can not run a second SLAVE drive.
Any ideas what might be causing this?
and I lost much of the data on it, because I did not have a current
backup. I got rid of that hard drive, even after a re-format showed it
to be usable and not have bad sectors.
This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001. which originally came
with Windows 2000. I've upgraded this machine many times and have used
it for years. I do have Win2000 dual bootable on it, but 95% of the time
I boot and use Win98se. (I have this crossposted to the XP group because
of the lack of activity on the Win98 group).
Anyhow, after that partition got damaged, I unplugged that second hard
drive (Slave drive) and just used the first drive (bootable one). The
first drive is a 120gb with four partitions. The second drive was also a
120gb with three partitions. The partition that went bad, was the G:
partition (first partition on second HDD).
I have not had any problems with the first HDD at all.
After removing that defective second HDD, I put it aside hoping to
recover data from it, and I plugged a 160gb HDD into the second IDE
connector and partitioned it. It did not take long for that second drive
to give me error messsages showing data corruption. I did not have much
on that drive, so I just copied it to space on the first HDD. I did
however, suspect that was because I know that Win98 does not allow
drives larger than 120gb (actually 132gb).
I bought another 120gb drive, and just recently installed it. I had not
yet put my original data back on it, nor my rebuilt data from G: (which
I all have on en external USB drive).
This new drive was partitioned into three partitions again. (G: H: I:).
The G: pattition was still empty. The H: partition I was using for
downloading, and contained about 25 downloads, mostly just small .JPG
files and a few .PDF files.
The I: partition contained a copy of my Agent newsreader which I copied
there, as a backup, while I was changing some of Agent's settings.
Yesterday I was defragging the first drive's partitions, when I decided
to defrag the H: partition, since I had moved around some of the
downloaded files. DEFRAG told me this partition had errors and I needed
to run Scandisk. Scandisk reported crosslinked files between the
DOWNLOAD folder and the RECYCLED folder. (Note, I DO NOT use the
Recycled folder, I have it set to immediately delete files.
I ran NORTON DISK DOCTOR (rather than Scandisk) to fix this, and it did
fix it, but then said that the RECYCLED folder existed but had no space
on the HDD. I could not delete the Recycled folder. Since I had already
copied all my downloads to another place (as a backup), I just
reformatted that H: partition.
For the heck of it, I ran DEFRAG on the I: partition (which only
contained a backup of my AGENT folder. -Once again, I got a notice to
run Scandisk, which showed duplicates of ALL these files in the RECYCLED
folder. And said it contained crosslinked files. Since I did not need
that backup of Agent anymore, I just reformatted that partition too.
Why is this second HDD getting all corrupted? This is a new drive, and I
also replaced the IDE cable with a new one (with 80 wires, rather than
the old one that had 40 wires).
I'm starting to wonder if the motherboard itself is failing (or at least
the built in IDE board portion of it).
I do have the drive jumpers set properly, to MASTER on the first HDD and
to SLAVE on the second drive.
I have run two HDDs on this computer for years with no problems. Now it
seems I can not run a second SLAVE drive.
Any ideas what might be causing this?
FreeMan
Dec 16, 2017, 3:50:53 PM12/16/17
to
Flaky cable ? Replace.
Flaky connector on the controller ? Switch to a different port.
Noisy power supply ? Replace.
Have another drive port ? Then switch.
Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
Bad Karma ?
Flaky connector on the controller ? Switch to a different port.
Noisy power supply ? Replace.
Have another drive port ? Then switch.
Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
Bad Karma ?
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 16, 2017, 7:37:59 PM12/16/17
to
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:50:51 -0800, FreeMan <Fre...@FreeMan.com> wrote:
>Flaky cable ? Replace.
I just did...
>Flaky connector on the controller ? Switch to a different port.
If this was the case, I dont think the first drive would work either.
>Have another drive port ? Then switch.
That is where the CD drive is plugged in.
>Bad Karma ?
I dont believe in this sort of thing.
One thing I did notice. The jumper on the First drive is set to CS
(cable select), not to Master (Master uses NO jumper). I'm wondering if
the second drive should also be set to CS, instead of SLAVE.
Or maybe I should use the actual Master and Slave jumpers???
I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
drives never had that setting. Maybe it's just anoither way to fuck
things up... It kind of seems senseless anyhow. I know the second drive
comes first on the cable, but the plug itself is the same wiring. How
the hell can the computer KNOW which drive is which. The only difference
is about 5" more length to the wires.
>Flaky cable ? Replace.
I just did...
>Flaky connector on the controller ? Switch to a different port.
>
>Noisy power supply ? Replace.
>
?????
>Noisy power supply ? Replace.
>
>Have another drive port ? Then switch.
>
>Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
>
Drive is not even in the case, it's outside of it
>Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
>
>Bad Karma ?
I dont believe in this sort of thing.
One thing I did notice. The jumper on the First drive is set to CS
(cable select), not to Master (Master uses NO jumper). I'm wondering if
the second drive should also be set to CS, instead of SLAVE.
Or maybe I should use the actual Master and Slave jumpers???
I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
drives never had that setting. Maybe it's just anoither way to fuck
things up... It kind of seems senseless anyhow. I know the second drive
comes first on the cable, but the plug itself is the same wiring. How
the hell can the computer KNOW which drive is which. The only difference
is about 5" more length to the wires.
Lee
Dec 16, 2017, 8:45:28 PM12/16/17
to
There was an update released to fix bad error message transfer from hard drives into DOS and it fixes some 48 bit LBA issues too. 2001 is patched date.
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/311561/ms-dos-does-not-properly-process-hard-disk-hardware-errors
R. Loew also has more patches, pay for, demo and free concerning the 48bit LBA issue, up to 145 GB is free in one demo offering.
http://rloew.x10host.com/
PATCHPAR is free and concerns partition corruption particularly.
I use several here ((2)500Gb hard drives), dual boot XP - 98se, 2GB ram, they all work, he is a genius. 3.09 Ghz Pentium 4 Hyper threading 98se installation time is 15 minutes flat to a working desktop. Boot up time is a hoot, but unfortunately I've forgotten the exact seconds needed to get to a working desktop there.
Cable Select jumper does work but only with 80 pin cables and a controller designed for that system. Both drives are set to CS and master is the end drive while slave is the one in the middle. Mix and match jumper method you are using may give the results you are complaining about. Just my guess there, mine here would not play right until I set both drives for CS and let the controller figure it out all by it's lonesome. I certainly would look into and catalog links for up to 2TB storage use with win98 despite what any outdated MS page says about FAT32 - they don't support it and won't be going back to correct a single word archived.
Cable Select secret is that one of the extra 40 'guard' ground wires is actually a drive select signal. Long gone are the days where this would be the first sentence in 'welcome to Cable Select' intro. WE are not qualified you see.
Paul
Dec 16, 2017, 10:38:50 PM12/16/17
to
did you clean if off after connecting it ?
At least on WinXP, you have "diskpart" command. Which runs
from an Administrator group account. You can select a disk,
then issue a command of "clean all", which overwrites every sector.
A second way to clean a new disk, is to use "dd".
http://www.chrysocome.net/dd
dd --list # Gives details about your disks, and
# hints at the labels to use
dd --list 2> list_of_disks.txt # Record in a text file, the details
# of your disks. The program writes to
# STDERR, which is FID number 2 of a
# command line program.
(200KB or so)
http://www.chrysocome.net/downloads/dd-0.6beta3.zip
Once you have the size information for the device, you
craft a command for it. Let's take my smallest drive as
sample material for this.
In Disk Management, my disks go 0,1,2. The third disk
is 2, and the identifier here is also "2". I confirm,
by comparing the sizes of disks I see in disk management,
with the disk numbers and sizes here, that I'm absolutely
sure about what identifier to use for the command. If
you make a mistake, you can do a lot of damage with
"dd.exe". It doesn't ask you to confirm anything,
it doesn't warn you in any way about what you're
going to be doing.
\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 <--- Partition 0 is the pointer to
link to \\?\Device\Harddisk2\DR2 the entire disk.
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 500107862016 bytes <--- The size of the entire disk
\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition1
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume1
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 20974431744 bytes 19.53GB partition
\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition2
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume2
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 14435366400 bytes 13.44GB partition
\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition3
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume3
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 44794874880 bytes 41.72GB partition
\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition4
link to \\?\Device\HarddiskVolume4
Fixed hard disk media. Block size = 512
size is 419900544000 bytes 391.06GB partition
The size of the disk, can be factored by small integers.
From memory, I happen to remember a "convenient" size for
this disk is 221184 byte commands.
221184 / 512 = 432 sectors (an evenly divisible sector-related size)
(256KB is a ballpark target for a size, on an older HDD)
(Setting the size to 512 bytes only, makes it slooow.)
500107862016 / 221184 = 2261049 chunks
So the number does divide evenly into the size of the disk
as well. (I use the Linux program factor.exe to factor
the number and figure out what a reasonable size might be.)
OK, so now comes the fun part. I want to do two things:
1) Remove any existing data.
2) "Probe" the disk, doing realistic write operations.
If there is something wrong with the geometry of the
disk, there is an HPA or DCO, there is a disturbance
in the force, I want the command to detect something
is wrong.
In an Administrator command prompt, I can try
dd if=/dev/zero of=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 bs=221184
Now, normally the command would have "count=2261049" to
make the command do a fixed amount of writing. However,
we want the command to keep writing, until it runs out
of disk drive. If we do it this way
dd if=/dev/zero of=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 bs=221184
then after a couple hours, the command stops and spits out
a couple lines. We hope the two lines are exactly 2261049,
and the command has figured this out the hard way, by
writing each sector.
If the command reports some other number of completed
chunks, that means there is an "issue" with the setup.
The value of the numbers printed out, will hint at what
the issue is. Is it the 137GB disk limit ? Is it a
64GB disk limit ? What limit did we hit ? Or,
did the disk pass, and we wrote exactly 2261049 chunks
of 221184 bytes each ?
Your drive is smaller than mine, and you will have a
different set of numbers. You'll have to work out
a value for the blocksize.
If you need help, just paste the same sort of section
that I did, into a post, and I can cook up a command
for you.
The dd.exe program only has one bug. If you erase USB
sticks with the program, the program does not successfully
detect the end of a USB key. Thus, you cannot use this sort
of "probing" command with a USB stick...
dd if=/dev/zero of=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 bs=221184
Instead, with a USB stick, you have to write a precise
quantity of bytes, using the count field too.
dd if=/dev/zero of=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 bs=221184 count=2261049
That way, it doesn't do anything disconcerting, like "write past
the end" of the USB stick. That kinda scared me, the first
time it happened.
Anyway, that's a little test case I use occasionally, when surpassing
canonical capacity limits on computers. I used to test disk
capacity by copying files over and over again, but that
gets really old fast. Having a command to use up all
the bytes, is a lot simpler.
Paul
J. P. Gilliver (John)
Dec 17, 2017, 1:59:14 AM12/17/17
to
In message <pceb3dpct8ph6hcus...@4ax.com>,
[]
as smooth a 5V and 12V as you might hope - spikes or dips. Can in theory
make drives (and anything else) malfunction. _Probably_ not your cause;
difficult to confirm without an oscilloscope. (If you have a known good
power supply of sufficient capacity, you can always try it.)
drive that failed) to see how that is jumpered? Anyway, if your first
drive is set to CS, and you have a CS cable, then it sounds like the
second one should be too. Can you see any setting in the BIOS that
indicates which selection method it is using? I've personally never had
a machine that used other than master and slave jumpers.
then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
had a twist in the cable.
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of
them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for
science intact. - Carl Sagan (interview w. Psychology Today published '96-1-1)
[]
>>Noisy power supply ? Replace.
>>
>?????
I think he meant electrically noisy. Some power supplies don't provide
>>
>?????
as smooth a 5V and 12V as you might hope - spikes or dips. Can in theory
make drives (and anything else) malfunction. _Probably_ not your cause;
difficult to confirm without an oscilloscope. (If you have a known good
power supply of sufficient capacity, you can always try it.)
>
>>Have another drive port ? Then switch.
>
>That is where the CD drive is plugged in.
>>
>>Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
>>
>Drive is not even in the case, it's outside of it
Does it run warm at all?
>>Have another drive port ? Then switch.
>
>That is where the CD drive is plugged in.
>>
>>Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
>>
>Drive is not even in the case, it's outside of it
>
>>Bad Karma ?
>
>I dont believe in this sort of thing.
>
>
>One thing I did notice. The jumper on the First drive is set to CS
>(cable select), not to Master (Master uses NO jumper). I'm wondering if
>the second drive should also be set to CS, instead of SLAVE.
>
>Or maybe I should use the actual Master and Slave jumpers???
Have you still got what used to be the other drive (IIRR it was a CD
>>Bad Karma ?
>
>I dont believe in this sort of thing.
>
>
>One thing I did notice. The jumper on the First drive is set to CS
>(cable select), not to Master (Master uses NO jumper). I'm wondering if
>the second drive should also be set to CS, instead of SLAVE.
>
>Or maybe I should use the actual Master and Slave jumpers???
drive that failed) to see how that is jumpered? Anyway, if your first
drive is set to CS, and you have a CS cable, then it sounds like the
second one should be too. Can you see any setting in the BIOS that
indicates which selection method it is using? I've personally never had
a machine that used other than master and slave jumpers.
>
>I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
>drives never had that setting. Maybe it's just anoither way to fuck
>things up... It kind of seems senseless anyhow. I know the second drive
>comes first on the cable, but the plug itself is the same wiring. How
>the hell can the computer KNOW which drive is which. The only difference
>is about 5" more length to the wires.
>
If the cable truly has the same connections on all three connectors,
>I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
>drives never had that setting. Maybe it's just anoither way to fuck
>things up... It kind of seems senseless anyhow. I know the second drive
>comes first on the cable, but the plug itself is the same wiring. How
>the hell can the computer KNOW which drive is which. The only difference
>is about 5" more length to the wires.
>
then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
had a twist in the cable.
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
Every kid starts out as a natural-born scientist, and then we beat it out of
them. A few trickle through the system with their wonder and enthusiasm for
science intact. - Carl Sagan (interview w. Psychology Today published '96-1-1)
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 17, 2017, 4:04:57 AM12/17/17
to
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:57:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
<G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>In message <pceb3dpct8ph6hcus...@4ax.com>,
>ja...@nospam.com writes:
>>On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:50:51 -0800, FreeMan <Fre...@FreeMan.com> wrote:
>[]
>>>Noisy power supply ? Replace.
>>>
>>?????
>
>I think he meant electrically noisy. Some power supplies don't provide
>as smooth a 5V and 12V as you might hope - spikes or dips. Can in theory
>make drives (and anything else) malfunction. _Probably_ not your cause;
>difficult to confirm without an oscilloscope. (If you have a known good
>power supply of sufficient capacity, you can always try it.)
>>
>>>Have another drive port ? Then switch.
>>
>>That is where the CD drive is plugged in.
>>>
>>>Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
>>>
>>Drive is not even in the case, it's outside of it
>
>Does it run warm at all?
Both drives get slightly warm. That's just normal. I have not mounted a
<G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>In message <pceb3dpct8ph6hcus...@4ax.com>,
>ja...@nospam.com writes:
>>On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:50:51 -0800, FreeMan <Fre...@FreeMan.com> wrote:
>[]
>>>Noisy power supply ? Replace.
>>>
>>?????
>
>I think he meant electrically noisy. Some power supplies don't provide
>as smooth a 5V and 12V as you might hope - spikes or dips. Can in theory
>make drives (and anything else) malfunction. _Probably_ not your cause;
>difficult to confirm without an oscilloscope. (If you have a known good
>power supply of sufficient capacity, you can always try it.)
>>
>>>Have another drive port ? Then switch.
>>
>>That is where the CD drive is plugged in.
>>>
>>>Overheating ? Fan not getting air over this drive ?
>>>
>>Drive is not even in the case, it's outside of it
>
>Does it run warm at all?
hard drive inside the case for at least 15 years.I put a large very
oversized power supply in this case, so the cover wont fit anyhow. I
like having the drives where I can easily swap them. The only drives
that are mounted in the case are the floppy and CD drives.
>>
>>>Bad Karma ?
>>
>>I dont believe in this sort of thing.
>>
>>
>>One thing I did notice. The jumper on the First drive is set to CS
>>(cable select), not to Master (Master uses NO jumper). I'm wondering if
>>the second drive should also be set to CS, instead of SLAVE.
>>
>>Or maybe I should use the actual Master and Slave jumpers???
>
>Have you still got what used to be the other drive (IIRR it was a CD
>drive that failed) to see how that is jumpered? Anyway, if your first
>drive is set to CS, and you have a CS cable, then it sounds like the
>second one should be too. Can you see any setting in the BIOS that
>indicates which selection method it is using? I've personally never had
>a machine that used other than master and slave jumpers.
>>
changed the new one to CS and copied a bunch of stuff to it from my
first drive. Then I deleted some stuff and copied a whole bunch of small
clipart pics to it, and then deleted some of them, and after that I
copied a huge ISO file to it, which is almost 1gb in size.
After all of that, I defragged that drive with no problem. It appears
that it needs to be set to CS. Maybe that was the whole problem. I'll
copy more stuff to it and delete other stuff and see if it keeps working
properly now. So far, so good!
I ma tempted to try the actual Master and Slave settings with the
jumpers and see if that works. I dont know if one way is better than the
other, or not? Does anyone know which jumper setting is the best?
>>I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
>>drives never had that setting. Maybe it's just anoither way to fuck
>>things up... It kind of seems senseless anyhow. I know the second drive
>>comes first on the cable, but the plug itself is the same wiring. How
>>the hell can the computer KNOW which drive is which. The only difference
>>is about 5" more length to the wires.
>>
>If the cable truly has the same connections on all three connectors,
>then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
>had a twist in the cable.
>>
So how that CS works is beyond my comprehension. I do know that for
awhile I had the Master drive on the first connector and Slave on the
last connector. THAT IS WRONG, but it was that way for a year or more
and worked fine. Maybe it dont much matter which cable comes first, but
according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
drive (which seems backwards).
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 17, 2017, 4:13:39 AM12/17/17
to
On Sat, 16 Dec 2017 22:38:48 -0500, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
>When you got the new 120GB drive (the one with G,H,I on it),
>did you clean if off after connecting it ?
>
No, I just plugged it in, used Partition Magic to partition it, and
>When you got the new 120GB drive (the one with G,H,I on it),
>did you clean if off after connecting it ?
>
formatted them (P.M. does the formatting too).
>At least on WinXP, you have "diskpart" command. Which runs
>from an Administrator group account. You can select a disk,
>then issue a command of "clean all", which overwrites every sector.
stuff.
What is the point of cleaning it? It should be blank, and if not, this
is not a secret government operation containing all the codes to launch
the nukes worldwide.... About the only controversial or secret stuff
might be a few pics of cows with their tits showing, and a pic of God
smoking some whacky weed....
Besides that, I've probably re-formatted every partition at least 4
times now, because of these problems. If that didn't clean the drives,
what will....
J. P. Gilliver (John)
Dec 17, 2017, 8:02:46 AM12/17/17
to
In message <8kbc3d5v6j3g74osv...@4ax.com>,
the CD drive that failed years ago, or do you mean the HD-that-was-G/H/I
whose failure started this whole saga? If the latter, I wonder if
setting that to CS might have cured the original problem )-:!
which CS works might cause problems?
to the first connector is 80 way, but between them is 79 or 78 way? (I
take it there's nothing obvious like one of the connectors having one of
its holes blanked.)
Ah, I've just looked:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Cable_select says it is done
using pin 28 - often just by omitting the contact from the middle
(slave, grey) connector, so you'd have to look extremely hard to see it!
It also says line 28 is only used so the drives know which they are, not
for control by the mobo, so if the drives are jumpered as master and
slave anyway, it is ignored (and that doesn't have to be master at the
end). So you can try it if you want. When the controller says "master
drive, please respond", both drives receive the command, but only one of
them responds - either because it is jumpered as master, or because both
are jumpered as CS and one of them knows it is master. (Apparently also
"drive 0" and "drive 1" - apparently "master" and "slave" don't actually
appear in the specification.) Which does suggest that having one drive
"hard jumpered" and the other as CS _could_ cause problems, depending on
position on the cable.
>awhile I had the Master drive on the first connector and Slave on the
>last connector. THAT IS WRONG, but it was that way for a year or more
>and worked fine. Maybe it dont much matter which cable comes first, but
>according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
>drive (which seems backwards).
>
No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
connector).
ja...@nospam.com writes:
>On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:57:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
><G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]
>On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:57:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
><G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>Yep, it looks like the old drive was set to SLAVE. However, I just
>changed the new one to CS and copied a bunch of stuff to it from my
>first drive. Then I deleted some stuff and copied a whole bunch of small
>clipart pics to it, and then deleted some of them, and after that I
>copied a huge ISO file to it, which is almost 1gb in size.
>
>After all of that, I defragged that drive with no problem. It appears
>that it needs to be set to CS. Maybe that was the whole problem. I'll
>copy more stuff to it and delete other stuff and see if it keeps working
>properly now. So far, so good!
I hesitate to ask, but when you say "the old drive" above, do you mean
>changed the new one to CS and copied a bunch of stuff to it from my
>first drive. Then I deleted some stuff and copied a whole bunch of small
>clipart pics to it, and then deleted some of them, and after that I
>copied a huge ISO file to it, which is almost 1gb in size.
>
>After all of that, I defragged that drive with no problem. It appears
>that it needs to be set to CS. Maybe that was the whole problem. I'll
>copy more stuff to it and delete other stuff and see if it keeps working
>properly now. So far, so good!
the CD drive that failed years ago, or do you mean the HD-that-was-G/H/I
whose failure started this whole saga? If the latter, I wonder if
setting that to CS might have cured the original problem )-:!
>
>I ma tempted to try the actual Master and Slave settings with the
>jumpers and see if that works. I dont know if one way is better than the
>other, or not? Does anyone know which jumper setting is the best?
Does anyone know whether using master/slave jumpering with a cable on
>I ma tempted to try the actual Master and Slave settings with the
>jumpers and see if that works. I dont know if one way is better than the
>other, or not? Does anyone know which jumper setting is the best?
which CS works might cause problems?
>
>>>I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
[]
>>>I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
>>If the cable truly has the same connections on all three connectors,
>>then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
>>had a twist in the cable.
>>>
>Yep, floppy cables do have a twist, but not these IDE Hard drive cables.
>So how that CS works is beyond my comprehension. I do know that for
Maybe there's an internal break in one line - so the cable from the mobo
>>then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
>>had a twist in the cable.
>>>
>Yep, floppy cables do have a twist, but not these IDE Hard drive cables.
>So how that CS works is beyond my comprehension. I do know that for
to the first connector is 80 way, but between them is 79 or 78 way? (I
take it there's nothing obvious like one of the connectors having one of
its holes blanked.)
Ah, I've just looked:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Cable_select says it is done
using pin 28 - often just by omitting the contact from the middle
(slave, grey) connector, so you'd have to look extremely hard to see it!
It also says line 28 is only used so the drives know which they are, not
for control by the mobo, so if the drives are jumpered as master and
slave anyway, it is ignored (and that doesn't have to be master at the
end). So you can try it if you want. When the controller says "master
drive, please respond", both drives receive the command, but only one of
them responds - either because it is jumpered as master, or because both
are jumpered as CS and one of them knows it is master. (Apparently also
"drive 0" and "drive 1" - apparently "master" and "slave" don't actually
appear in the specification.) Which does suggest that having one drive
"hard jumpered" and the other as CS _could_ cause problems, depending on
position on the cable.
>awhile I had the Master drive on the first connector and Slave on the
>last connector. THAT IS WRONG, but it was that way for a year or more
>and worked fine. Maybe it dont much matter which cable comes first, but
>according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
>drive (which seems backwards).
>
connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
connector).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
Veni, Vidi, Vomit (I came, I saw, I was ill) - m...@saslimited.demon.co.uk, 1998
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
Paul
Dec 17, 2017, 1:47:40 PM12/17/17
to
ja...@nospam.com wrote:
> What is the point of cleaning it? It should be blank, and if not, this
> is not a secret government operation containing all the codes to launch
> the nukes worldwide.... About the only controversial or secret stuff
> might be a few pics of cows with their tits showing, and a pic of God
> smoking some whacky weed....
> Besides that, I've probably re-formatted every partition at least 4
> times now, because of these problems. If that didn't clean the drives,
> what will....
Keep an open mind.
> What is the point of cleaning it? It should be blank, and if not, this
> is not a secret government operation containing all the codes to launch
> the nukes worldwide.... About the only controversial or secret stuff
> might be a few pics of cows with their tits showing, and a pic of God
> smoking some whacky weed....
> Besides that, I've probably re-formatted every partition at least 4
> times now, because of these problems. If that didn't clean the drives,
> what will....
This is a hardware test.
It tests that the drive is write-able from end to end
and is "data safe" when you put real data on it.
If the size reported by the run, does not conform to
your expectations, you figure out why.
If the test case never finishes, that suggests the
disk has bad patches or something.
You can also set the tests to do reads instead.
This test would stop early, when it encounters even
one CRC error. That would look like...
dd if=\\?\Device\Harddisk2\Partition0 of=NUL bs=221184
What that command would do, is read to the end of Disk2.
And spit out a report of how many chunks it could read.
Multiplying the chunk count by the 221184 number, should
equal the drive size in bytes. On WinXP, you can run
"perfmon.msc" and add a "disk" "write bytes" counter
to the graph, and monitor the transfer rate as the
command runs. A lot of downward spikes indicates a
not very healthy "new" disk.
You can get much the same testing from the WDC or
Seagate test utilities. But I like the added bonus
of *proving* the disk works right up to the end of it.
The Windows "NUL" destination is the equivalent of
/dev/null on Linux and the data goes into the bit bucket.
So these are hardware-guy tests, to be done *before*
you use the disk for real data.
The amount of testing you do, is a function of how
the drive has been abused. Was it in a UPS box with
no Styrofoam peanuts ? Was the drive packaged in a
double plastic "SeaShell" packaging (I picked up
some retail drives from Best Buy packaged that way) ?
If the drive has accepted a rough ride on its way
to see you, then you test it.
The drives I get now, I pick up at the computer store.
They're held in a rack, with no soft packaging at all.
They come in an antistatic bag. There is no way to know
what kind of life they've had in that rack. The company
involved, knows nothing about handling hard drives :-)
Even the sales counter is rock-hard Formica, and they
don't even have a rubber pad to cushion product the sales
associates plunk onto the counter.
The reason I worry about this sort of stuff, is I was
actually sent on a plane trip from work, to root cause
why we had excessive disk failures at a certain site
in the US. When I saw what they were doing, my
jaw dropped :-) And I haven't been the same since :-)
It's not only the UPS driver who has evil in his heart.
Paul
Paul
Dec 17, 2017, 2:02:21 PM12/17/17
to
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
> connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
> cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
> for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
> left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
> connector).
I like to draw pictures for people.
> No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
> connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
> cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
> for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
> left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
> connector).
For a single IDE drive, it *always* goes on the end, like this.
Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Master
Cable_Select (if 80 wire, CS is allowed)
When you add a second drive, it can be like this. Or,
you can run CS on both drives, if you are using an
80 wire cable (with that twist in it). I didn't want to junk
up the diagram, by adding CS to the table for both drives.
Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Slave Master
Master with Slave (some brands have a
distinction on the jumpers)
Do *not* do this, as the end of the cable constitutes a
stub and causes excess reflections and corrupted data.
Mobo
X --------------+--------+
| |
Oopsy
ULooz
Even in the best of circumstances, the signals on that
cable look horrible. The signals look more horrible
in that last case.
One of the things that SATA does, is banish those bad
design ideas... to the pit. With point to point SATA,
there are no more simulation nightmares for engineers
to look at. Someone (of course) can still make a SATA
cable out-of-spec, but the field reports seem to be
pretty good. Almost as if most of the rolls of raw cables
come from one cable plant, and that helps keep the
process "honest".
You should not bend a SATA cable until it kinks, as
that causes unpredictable results to your data. You could
get away with it, or not. Don't crush the excess SATA
cable and tightly wrap duct tape around it. Bad. If you
have too much SATA cable, buy a shorter one from the
store and try again.
HTH,
Paul
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 18, 2017, 3:55:37 AM12/18/17
to
On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:01:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
this computer died years ago. I really dont have any need for one on my
Win98 machine. I have the Win98 install files right on the HDD. I dont
play games or anything that needs a CD.
I do have a CD player on my XP machine, but rarely use it. But I would
need it to reinstall XP, and once and awhile I copy a music CD and turn
it into MP3 songs for my MP3 player. If I want to listen to CDs, I have
a regular CD player on my stereo.
Anyhow, I was referring to my old 2nd drive / Slave (G: H: I:).
>
>>I ma tempted to try the actual Master and Slave settings with the
>>jumpers and see if that works. I dont know if one way is better than the
>>other, or not? Does anyone know which jumper setting is the best?
>
>Does anyone know whether using master/slave jumpering with a cable on
>which CS works might cause problems?
>>
>>>>I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
>[]
>>>If the cable truly has the same connections on all three connectors,
>>>then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
>>>had a twist in the cable.
>>>>
>>Yep, floppy cables do have a twist, but not these IDE Hard drive cables.
>>So how that CS works is beyond my comprehension. I do know that for
>
>Maybe there's an internal break in one line - so the cable from the mobo
>to the first connector is 80 way, but between them is 79 or 78 way? (I
>take it there's nothing obvious like one of the connectors having one of
>its holes blanked.)
This is a brand new cable. Of course anything can be defective.
>>awhile I had the Master drive on the first connector and Slave on the
>>last connector. THAT IS WRONG, but it was that way for a year or more
>>and worked fine. Maybe it dont much matter which cable comes first, but
>>according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
>>drive (which seems backwards).
>>
>No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
>connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
>cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
>for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
>left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
>connector).
I better understand this now. I know I have the cable right now, and
since I changed that jumper to CS, it looks like everything works fine
now. (At least so far). I have copied and deleted files and defragged
and scandisked, and ran Norton Dick Doctor. I even ran scandisk from
Dos. Everything checks out ok.
I sort of am wondering if the problem on my old slave drive may have
been caused by the jumpers being incorrectly set, but I had them drives
that way for at least 2 years. I'd think that would have shown up a lot
sooner.
<G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>In message <8kbc3d5v6j3g74osv...@4ax.com>,
>ja...@nospam.com writes:
>>On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:57:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>><G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>[]
>>Yep, it looks like the old drive was set to SLAVE. However, I just
>>changed the new one to CS and copied a bunch of stuff to it from my
>>first drive. Then I deleted some stuff and copied a whole bunch of small
>>clipart pics to it, and then deleted some of them, and after that I
>>copied a huge ISO file to it, which is almost 1gb in size.
>>
>>After all of that, I defragged that drive with no problem. It appears
>>that it needs to be set to CS. Maybe that was the whole problem. I'll
>>copy more stuff to it and delete other stuff and see if it keeps working
>>properly now. So far, so good!
>
>I hesitate to ask, but when you say "the old drive" above, do you mean
>the CD drive that failed years ago, or do you mean the HD-that-was-G/H/I
>whose failure started this whole saga? If the latter, I wonder if
>setting that to CS might have cured the original problem )-:!
>
There is no CD drive involved in any of this. In fact the CD drive in
>In message <8kbc3d5v6j3g74osv...@4ax.com>,
>ja...@nospam.com writes:
>>On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 06:57:37 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
>><G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>[]
>>Yep, it looks like the old drive was set to SLAVE. However, I just
>>changed the new one to CS and copied a bunch of stuff to it from my
>>first drive. Then I deleted some stuff and copied a whole bunch of small
>>clipart pics to it, and then deleted some of them, and after that I
>>copied a huge ISO file to it, which is almost 1gb in size.
>>
>>After all of that, I defragged that drive with no problem. It appears
>>that it needs to be set to CS. Maybe that was the whole problem. I'll
>>copy more stuff to it and delete other stuff and see if it keeps working
>>properly now. So far, so good!
>
>I hesitate to ask, but when you say "the old drive" above, do you mean
>the CD drive that failed years ago, or do you mean the HD-that-was-G/H/I
>whose failure started this whole saga? If the latter, I wonder if
>setting that to CS might have cured the original problem )-:!
>
this computer died years ago. I really dont have any need for one on my
Win98 machine. I have the Win98 install files right on the HDD. I dont
play games or anything that needs a CD.
I do have a CD player on my XP machine, but rarely use it. But I would
need it to reinstall XP, and once and awhile I copy a music CD and turn
it into MP3 songs for my MP3 player. If I want to listen to CDs, I have
a regular CD player on my stereo.
Anyhow, I was referring to my old 2nd drive / Slave (G: H: I:).
>
>>I ma tempted to try the actual Master and Slave settings with the
>>jumpers and see if that works. I dont know if one way is better than the
>>other, or not? Does anyone know which jumper setting is the best?
>
>Does anyone know whether using master/slave jumpering with a cable on
>which CS works might cause problems?
>>
>>>>I never understood how that CS works, or why it's even an option. Older
>[]
>>>If the cable truly has the same connections on all three connectors,
>>>then I can't see how it's selecting either. I know floppy drive cables
>>>had a twist in the cable.
>>>>
>>Yep, floppy cables do have a twist, but not these IDE Hard drive cables.
>>So how that CS works is beyond my comprehension. I do know that for
>
>Maybe there's an internal break in one line - so the cable from the mobo
>to the first connector is 80 way, but between them is 79 or 78 way? (I
>take it there's nothing obvious like one of the connectors having one of
>its holes blanked.)
>
>Ah, I've just looked:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Cable_select says it is done
>using pin 28 - often just by omitting the contact from the middle
>(slave, grey) connector, so you'd have to look extremely hard to see it!
>It also says line 28 is only used so the drives know which they are, not
>for control by the mobo, so if the drives are jumpered as master and
>slave anyway, it is ignored (and that doesn't have to be master at the
>end). So you can try it if you want. When the controller says "master
>drive, please respond", both drives receive the command, but only one of
>them responds - either because it is jumpered as master, or because both
>are jumpered as CS and one of them knows it is master. (Apparently also
>"drive 0" and "drive 1" - apparently "master" and "slave" don't actually
>appear in the specification.) Which does suggest that having one drive
>"hard jumpered" and the other as CS _could_ cause problems, depending on
>position on the cable.
>
Ok, that explains it....
>Ah, I've just looked:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Cable_select says it is done
>using pin 28 - often just by omitting the contact from the middle
>(slave, grey) connector, so you'd have to look extremely hard to see it!
>It also says line 28 is only used so the drives know which they are, not
>for control by the mobo, so if the drives are jumpered as master and
>slave anyway, it is ignored (and that doesn't have to be master at the
>end). So you can try it if you want. When the controller says "master
>drive, please respond", both drives receive the command, but only one of
>them responds - either because it is jumpered as master, or because both
>are jumpered as CS and one of them knows it is master. (Apparently also
>"drive 0" and "drive 1" - apparently "master" and "slave" don't actually
>appear in the specification.) Which does suggest that having one drive
>"hard jumpered" and the other as CS _could_ cause problems, depending on
>position on the cable.
>
>>awhile I had the Master drive on the first connector and Slave on the
>>last connector. THAT IS WRONG, but it was that way for a year or more
>>and worked fine. Maybe it dont much matter which cable comes first, but
>>according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
>>drive (which seems backwards).
>>
>No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
>connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
>cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
>for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
>left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
>connector).
since I changed that jumper to CS, it looks like everything works fine
now. (At least so far). I have copied and deleted files and defragged
and scandisked, and ran Norton Dick Doctor. I even ran scandisk from
Dos. Everything checks out ok.
I sort of am wondering if the problem on my old slave drive may have
been caused by the jumpers being incorrectly set, but I had them drives
that way for at least 2 years. I'd think that would have shown up a lot
sooner.
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 18, 2017, 4:08:32 AM12/18/17
to
Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
has so few wires compared to the IDE cables, and even more puzzling why
the power connectors have all those pins, when there is still only 5V
12V and a copule grounds needed (4 wires). Why do they have all them
pins? Why didnt they just use the common 4 pin connecters they have used
for years. All that did is make power supplies more complicated and the
need to buy adapters to use older power supplies.
That "dd" thing sounds too much like Linux command line shit to me. I
dont touch that shit....
I'd rather run scandisk, chkdsk, or Norton Disk Doctor (NDD).
Ndd runs faster than scandisk, so I normally run that. Scandisk took 13
hours to scan a 40gb drive, Ndd takes 4 or 5 hours to do the same.
I do question how much drives are abused by running all this stuff.
Like, how much life is taken away from drives by beating the crap out of
them with these sector by sector tests? This is not like normal use,
this is extreme abuse. Some of those tests are made so they can be run
10x or even more. Not only would that make my computer unusable for
several days, but probably eliminates 50% of the drive's lifespan.
Paul
Dec 18, 2017, 5:16:01 AM12/18/17
to
ja...@nospam.com wrote:
> I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
> Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
> has so few wires compared to the IDE cables, and even more puzzling why
> the power connectors have all those pins, when there is still only 5V
> 12V and a copule grounds needed (4 wires). Why do they have all them
> pins? Why didnt they just use the common 4 pin connecters they have used
> for years. All that did is make power supplies more complicated and the
> need to buy adapters to use older power supplies.
The SATA 7 pin data uses TX+,TX-,RX+,RX-,
> I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
> Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
> has so few wires compared to the IDE cables, and even more puzzling why
> the power connectors have all those pins, when there is still only 5V
> 12V and a copule grounds needed (4 wires). Why do they have all them
> pins? Why didnt they just use the common 4 pin connecters they have used
> for years. All that did is make power supplies more complicated and the
> need to buy adapters to use older power supplies.
and those are differential serial connections.
The data travels serially, a bit at a time, like a modem.
Only it happens at 6Gbit/sec, which is "faster than your microwave oven".
It's a signal at microwave frequencies.
So that's how they squeezed down the data cable, by going serial.
USB uses this approach too. USB3 uses TX+,TX-,RX+,RX- .
This document is 3.6MB and it has a picture of what the
SATA data signal looks like, at 6Gbit/sec. And it isn't
even an eye diagram picture - the picture is standalone
ones and zeros. Page 4 has the picture.
http://download.tek.com/datasheet/4HW_19377_15_0.pdf
*******
The SATA connector is designed for SATA backplanes.
It's usage in desktop computers is an afterthought.
The hard drive was supposed to slide into a hole
in a chassis, and the back of the drive mates
with a backplane connector that "sticks out"
of the backplane PCB board. And via hotswap, on
a server you could add or remove drives while
the server remained powered and running.
*******
The 15 pin power is 5 groups of 3 pins each.
A pin carries 1 ampere of current. Three pins
carry 3 amps. And 3 amps is just enough for the
+12V source, to run the hard drive motor. At
one time, some hard drives would draw 3 amps for
the first ten seconds, until the spindle was up
to speed.
So the contact count for power, was made generous
enough to run existing hard drives.
Actual current flow measurements, show drives
now being "all over the place" with regard to
the level of current flow at startup. I don't
think I found any samples I tested, drawing the
whole 3 amps.
The groups on the power connector are
3.3V, 5V, 12V, GND, GND
The expectation is, a design might use two of
three power sources, so only two ground groups
are needed. A conventional disk drive uses
5V, 12V, GND, GND
and so there are just enough grounds to match
the current flow level on the supply pins.
Paul
philo
Dec 18, 2017, 8:15:28 PM12/18/17
to
Paul
Dec 18, 2017, 9:15:57 PM12/18/17
to
basic health tests done on it. There's no harm in trying
that. I did that on my new machine only a couple days
ago... just in case.
Paul
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 19, 2017, 2:23:20 AM12/19/17
to
On Mon, 18 Dec 2017 21:15:58 -0500, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>> The reason I worry about this sort of stuff, is I was
>>> actually sent on a plane trip from work, to root cause
>>> why we had excessive disk failures at a certain site
>>> in the US. When I saw what they were doing, my
>>> jaw dropped :-) And I haven't been the same since :-)
>>> It's not only the UPS driver who has evil in his heart.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would absolutely run a RAM test, may be nothing to do with the drive
>
>Any PC you pull from storage, should have some
>basic health tests done on it. There's no harm in trying
>that. I did that on my new machine only a couple days
>ago... just in case.
>
> Paul
How do you test RAM?
>>> The reason I worry about this sort of stuff, is I was
>>> actually sent on a plane trip from work, to root cause
>>> why we had excessive disk failures at a certain site
>>> in the US. When I saw what they were doing, my
>>> jaw dropped :-) And I haven't been the same since :-)
>>> It's not only the UPS driver who has evil in his heart.
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would absolutely run a RAM test, may be nothing to do with the drive
>
>Any PC you pull from storage, should have some
>basic health tests done on it. There's no harm in trying
>that. I did that on my new machine only a couple days
>ago... just in case.
>
> Paul
Hopefully its a Windows program, not linux....
Ammammata
Dec 19, 2017, 2:40:50 AM12/19/17
to
Il giorno Sat 16 Dec 2017 08:26:40p, ** ha inviato su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
news:99sa3d5so7chqknmq...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
> This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001
an almost seventeen-years-old computer is like a Ford Model T
you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it
imho
--
/-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ T /-\
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- - -=-
>>>>> http://www.bb2002.it :) <<<<<
........... [ al lavoro ] ...........
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
news:99sa3d5so7chqknmq...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
> This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001
you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it
imho
--
/-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ /\/\ /\/\ /-\ T /-\
-=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- -=- - -=-
>>>>> http://www.bb2002.it :) <<<<<
........... [ al lavoro ] ...........
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 19, 2017, 6:12:35 AM12/19/17
to
On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 07:40:50 +0000 (UTC), Ammammata
<amma...@tiscalinet.it> wrote:
>
>> This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001
>
>an almost seventeen-years-old computer is like a Ford Model T
>you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
>it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it
>
>imho
Bullshit. Unless it's dead, it works just fine, and I have used it
<amma...@tiscalinet.it> wrote:
>
>> This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001
>
>an almost seventeen-years-old computer is like a Ford Model T
>you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
>it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it
>
>imho
almost daily for the past 17 years. I have radios and power tools from
the 1950s and 60s that still work fine too. Then again, I'm almost 70
years old, and I still work pretty well too.
You sound like one of todays spoiled rotten youth who cant stand to have
anything more than 2 years old, and waste a lot of your parents hard
earnings on expensive toys, because your old toy (which is one year old)
no longer gives you any thrills). I cant wait to see all you spoiled
youth crash when the economy goes to shit. Maybe you'll learn the value
of a dollar that YOU had to earn yourself, and you'll have to wear an
old coat you've had for 4 years and be forced to use a 5 year old
cellphone or computer, or do without them completely. Your generation
makes me want to puke. Not only are you spoiled so rotten that you
stink, but you are the worst polluters to ever inhabit this earth, with
all the waste you create (because it's old).
Paul
Dec 19, 2017, 7:43:34 AM12/19/17
to
On WinXP, you get a copy by downloading it.
On more modern Windows OSes, it's included on C: (but you
have to figure out where it's located of course).
https://web.archive.org/web/20070102211853/http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag.asp
(640KB - shirely a joke)
https://web.archive.org/web/20070102145946if_/http://oca.microsoft.com:80/en/mtinst.exe
The virustotal scan suggests that might be installing
itself as a multiboot. I need to know this, to know whether
it's a good idea for me to click this or not :-) What it
might be doing, is adding an item to the boot menu, for a
boot-time memory test.
https://www.virustotal.com/#/file/cea59889e0bc8dba0572323aefd7a9e5400acaf53df8fe407a8e6378c090ffbe/behavior
In any case, that's one way to do it. Try it out,
tell me what happened or something :-)
I *have* run the Windows memory tester on a later Windows,
but I cannot recollect right now what menu I saw it in. It's
possible it was testing while Windows was running, and it didn't
test every memory location (the 300MB of locations Windows is using).
*******
This one, you combine it with a blank floppy.
It tests every memory location, except "BIOS reserved" locations
totaling around 1MB or so. If it were to write to BIOS locations,
some BIOS call might crash later. There is actually a table the BIOS
presents, of locations "you must not touch".
http://www.memtest.org
The downloads are half way down that web page.
For example, the floppy in front of me, is this one. 274,506 bytes.
http://www.memtest.org/download/4.10/memtest86+-4.10.floppy.zip
The contents of the ZIP are:
memtestp.bin
install64.bat
install.bat <---- insert blank floppy, run this one in Command Prompt
README.txt
dd.exe
rawrite.exe
What the file set does, is a sector-by-sector transfer of "memtestp.bin"
to the sectors of the floppy. When finished, if you try to list the
floppy "there is nothing on it". There is no file system on the floppy.
You insert the floppy later if you want and boot from it.
Once the 640x480 screen appears, the floppy contents are
stored in memory, so you can pop the floppy out and put it
away somewhere.
The "memtestp.bin" is like an OS and when the BIOS hands
off control, that program runs the whole machine and does
the memory test. After it has completed one pass, press
the <esc> key to exit and boot the OS again. You can stop
the test at any time by pressing that key.
If it finds errors, they're printed in the middle of the
screen. If there are too many errors, the error list will scroll.
When I had one completely dead memory chip, it scrolled... a lot.
Paul
Paul
Dec 19, 2017, 7:56:17 AM12/19/17
to
Ammammata wrote:
> Il giorno Sat 16 Dec 2017 08:26:40p, ** ha inviato su
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
> news:99sa3d5so7chqknmq...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
>
>> This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001
>
> an almost seventeen-years-old computer is like a Ford Model T
> you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
> it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it
>
> imho
>
I have a few 18 year old machines, still in mint condition.
> Il giorno Sat 16 Dec 2017 08:26:40p, ** ha inviato su
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
> news:99sa3d5so7chqknmq...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
>
>> This is an old IBM brand computer from about 2001
>
> an almost seventeen-years-old computer is like a Ford Model T
> you can't ask the hardware to be fully functional after so much time
> it's your mistake to pretend to work safely with it
>
> imho
>
No complaints. The installed OS still runs, just like it used to.
These machines use a lot of electricity though. One machine
I measured some time ago, it used 150W just sitting there
doing nothing. Like it was a V8 car with big fins on the back :-)
The machines back then, had hardly any power-saving features.
That's one reason they make poor choices if your
electricity is expensive.
*******
They won't boot off a DVD though, because when the machines
were invented, DVDs didn't exist, and nobody prepared
for the arrival of DVDs.
I even put a DVD drive in the machines to test this.
I was disappointed, but not surprised.
On earlier computers, some of the booting process
is done by "hard drive emulation". The BIOS converts
other device types to "look like" a hard drive. And
part of that methodology involves "fixed size disks".
So when the DVD came along, it was much larger than
anything the designers had anticipated. Amongst
other problems. I don't think the BIOS knows what
the DVD command set looks like either. It wasn't
an El Torito problem I was seeing, it was a physical
layer problem - the BIOS just didn't want to touch
the drive.
One other quirk someone else in the newsgroups tested
at the time, is they inserted a SATA PCI card into
the machine. And the BIOS just ignored it, and the
OS couldn't use it. So again, if you use hardware
cards the BIOS has never heard of, there will be
problems.
But these really aren't surprises. It's to be
expected things like this will happen.
I was booting something just yesterday, and in the
boot log on the screen it said "18493843248 GB disk".
Then the next line said "this is a really big disk".
No shit. So again, modern software is never prepared
for surprises, even if the software was written
in 2017. I don't know how the booting OS in that
case, had managed to query the disk drive, but
it got an absurdly large (wrong) size from it. No software
is really "prepared for infinity and beyond" :-)
The main problem with old computers, is there's no
decent web browser to use on them. That's why the
machines sit in the Junk Room.
Paul
J. P. Gilliver (John)
Dec 19, 2017, 8:34:29 AM12/19/17
to
In message <p16evs$h6n$1...@dont-email.me>, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid>
writes:
[]
CS, by omitting line 28 between the remote connectors, and master having
to be the middle one, with the unterminated bit of cable providing all
the reflections you'd expect )-:. Probably why CS wasn't used much in
the early days. I _think_ I _do_ remember seeing 40 wire IDE cables
where the cable between the remote connectors was two ribbons, i. e. had
a gap in it - not a twist like a floppy connector, just a gap, which had
I looked closer I'd have seen was the omitted line 28. (Presumably line
28 was just connected to 0 or 5V on the mobo.)
the insert on the middle connector's line 28.)
>up the diagram, by adding CS to the table for both drives.
>
> Mobo
> X --------------+--------+
> | |
> Slave Master
> Master with Slave (some brands have a
> distinction on the jumpers)
(I'd forgotten that! Wonder why.)
[]
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP." (Quoted in) The Independent, 2013-7-13
writes:
[]
>I like to draw pictures for people.
>
>For a single IDE drive, it *always* goes on the end, like this.
>
> Mobo
> X --------------+--------+
> | |
> Master
> Cable_Select (if 80 wire, CS is allowed)
IF I understood the Wikipedia article, some 40 wire cables _did_ allow
>
>For a single IDE drive, it *always* goes on the end, like this.
>
> Mobo
> X --------------+--------+
> | |
> Master
> Cable_Select (if 80 wire, CS is allowed)
CS, by omitting line 28 between the remote connectors, and master having
to be the middle one, with the unterminated bit of cable providing all
the reflections you'd expect )-:. Probably why CS wasn't used much in
the early days. I _think_ I _do_ remember seeing 40 wire IDE cables
where the cable between the remote connectors was two ribbons, i. e. had
a gap in it - not a twist like a floppy connector, just a gap, which had
I looked closer I'd have seen was the omitted line 28. (Presumably line
28 was just connected to 0 or 5V on the mobo.)
>
>When you add a second drive, it can be like this. Or,
>you can run CS on both drives, if you are using an
>80 wire cable (with that twist in it). I didn't want to junk
(Not a twist, just an omission. Apparently often done by just omitting
>When you add a second drive, it can be like this. Or,
>you can run CS on both drives, if you are using an
>80 wire cable (with that twist in it). I didn't want to junk
the insert on the middle connector's line 28.)
>up the diagram, by adding CS to the table for both drives.
>
> Mobo
> X --------------+--------+
> | |
> Slave Master
> Master with Slave (some brands have a
> distinction on the jumpers)
>
>Do *not* do this, as the end of the cable constitutes a
>stub and causes excess reflections and corrupted data.
>
> Mobo
> X --------------+--------+
> | |
> Oopsy
> ULooz
>
>Even in the best of circumstances, the signals on that
>cable look horrible. The signals look more horrible
>in that last case.
Must have been even worse with the 40 line cables!
>Do *not* do this, as the end of the cable constitutes a
>stub and causes excess reflections and corrupted data.
>
> Mobo
> X --------------+--------+
> | |
> Oopsy
> ULooz
>
>Even in the best of circumstances, the signals on that
>cable look horrible. The signals look more horrible
>in that last case.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be
ATP." (Quoted in) The Independent, 2013-7-13
J. P. Gilliver (John)
Dec 19, 2017, 8:44:35 AM12/19/17
to
In message <p184gu$v74$1...@dont-email.me>, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid>
writes:
if that would make W98 be able to use them.
>> has so few wires compared to the IDE cables, and even more puzzling why
>> the power connectors have all those pins, when there is still only 5V
>> 12V and a copule grounds needed (4 wires). Why do they have all them
>> pins? Why didnt they just use the common 4 pin connecters they have used
>> for years. All that did is make power supplies more complicated and the
>> need to buy adapters to use older power supplies.
>
>The SATA 7 pin data uses TX+,TX-,RX+,RX-,
>and those are differential serial connections.
>
>The data travels serially, a bit at a time, like a modem.
Yes, the clue is in the S (and the P in the alternative name for [E]IDE,
PATA).
[]
of them. Fair enough, I suppose, if you're feeding power through an
existing multiway connector (though many connectors, e. g. DIN 41612,
manage fine with varying pin sizes - I suppose not really on if you're
using ribbon cable, though, as you'd need special ribbon), but in the
case of the SATA connector, it's a separate connector anyway, so why not
just use bigger pins! But it's settled now, so I suppose we're stuck
with it. But I share James's dissatisfaction with it - the power
connector being bigger than the data one, without it being obvious
that's the reason because it has bigger pins, feels odd.
[]
writes:
>ja...@nospam.com wrote:
>
>> I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
>> Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
Some BIOS/MOBOs can make them "look like" an [E]IDE drive. I don't know
>
>> I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
>> Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
if that would make W98 be able to use them.
>> has so few wires compared to the IDE cables, and even more puzzling why
>> the power connectors have all those pins, when there is still only 5V
>> 12V and a copule grounds needed (4 wires). Why do they have all them
>> pins? Why didnt they just use the common 4 pin connecters they have used
>> for years. All that did is make power supplies more complicated and the
>> need to buy adapters to use older power supplies.
>
>The SATA 7 pin data uses TX+,TX-,RX+,RX-,
>and those are differential serial connections.
>
>The data travels serially, a bit at a time, like a modem.
PATA).
[]
>So that's how they squeezed down the data cable, by going serial.
[]
>The 15 pin power is 5 groups of 3 pins each.
>A pin carries 1 ampere of current. Three pins
>carry 3 amps. And 3 amps is just enough for the
>+12V source, to run the hard drive motor. At
>one time, some hard drives would draw 3 amps for
>the first ten seconds, until the spindle was up
>to speed.
>
>So the contact count for power, was made generous
>enough to run existing hard drives.
It seems an odd choice to me, to use small contacts, and then use a lot
>A pin carries 1 ampere of current. Three pins
>carry 3 amps. And 3 amps is just enough for the
>+12V source, to run the hard drive motor. At
>one time, some hard drives would draw 3 amps for
>the first ten seconds, until the spindle was up
>to speed.
>
>So the contact count for power, was made generous
>enough to run existing hard drives.
of them. Fair enough, I suppose, if you're feeding power through an
existing multiway connector (though many connectors, e. g. DIN 41612,
manage fine with varying pin sizes - I suppose not really on if you're
using ribbon cable, though, as you'd need special ribbon), but in the
case of the SATA connector, it's a separate connector anyway, so why not
just use bigger pins! But it's settled now, so I suppose we're stuck
with it. But I share James's dissatisfaction with it - the power
connector being bigger than the data one, without it being obvious
that's the reason because it has bigger pins, feels odd.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
J. P. Gilliver (John)
Dec 19, 2017, 8:54:35 AM12/19/17
to
In message <4sve3d5iknfr6chfm...@4ax.com>,
only to block the hole in the front, so you could have a look to see if
it was set to be slave or cable select.
[]
master/slave explicitly, the drives will ignore what the cable's telling
them. If one was jumpered as master or slave, and the other as CS, _and_
they were in the awkward position on the cable, then they'd either both
respond at once or not at all, which might harm them.)
[]
would show up after a while - I'd have thought it would be there from
the start, or not at all. And the fact that it only showed up in one
position (partition) does sound like a surface fault. (The fact that
reformatting now shows no fault _may_ mean the drive's electronics are
"sparing out" the dud bit, and the drive is usable again, but like you I
wouldn't use it for anything important.)
(William Allen, 1999 - after Milton, of course)
ja...@nospam.com writes:
>On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:01:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
><G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]
>On Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:01:49 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"
><G6JP...@255soft.uk> wrote:
>>I hesitate to ask, but when you say "the old drive" above, do you mean
>>the CD drive that failed years ago, or do you mean the HD-that-was-G/H/I
>>whose failure started this whole saga? If the latter, I wonder if
>>setting that to CS might have cured the original problem )-:!
>>
>There is no CD drive involved in any of this. In fact the CD drive in
>this computer died years ago. I really dont have any need for one on my
That was the one I was thinking of - I thought maybe you'd kept it, if
>>the CD drive that failed years ago, or do you mean the HD-that-was-G/H/I
>>whose failure started this whole saga? If the latter, I wonder if
>>setting that to CS might have cured the original problem )-:!
>>
>There is no CD drive involved in any of this. In fact the CD drive in
>this computer died years ago. I really dont have any need for one on my
only to block the hole in the front, so you could have a look to see if
it was set to be slave or cable select.
[]
>Anyhow, I was referring to my old 2nd drive / Slave (G: H: I:).
[]
>>Does anyone know whether using master/slave jumpering with a cable on
>>which CS works might cause problems?
(I think I've answered my own question: no, no problems; if jumpered as
>>which CS works might cause problems?
master/slave explicitly, the drives will ignore what the cable's telling
them. If one was jumpered as master or slave, and the other as CS, _and_
they were in the awkward position on the cable, then they'd either both
respond at once or not at all, which might harm them.)
[]
>>Ah, I've just looked:
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Cable_select says it is done
>>using pin 28 - often just by omitting the contact from the middle
[]
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA#Cable_select says it is done
>>using pin 28 - often just by omitting the contact from the middle
>>>and worked fine. Maybe it dont much matter which cable comes first, but
>>>according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
>>>drive (which seems backwards).
>>>
>>No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
>>connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
>>cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
>>for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
>>left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
>>connector).
>
>I better understand this now. I know I have the cable right now, and
>since I changed that jumper to CS, it looks like everything works fine
>now. (At least so far). I have copied and deleted files and defragged
>and scandisked, and ran Norton Dick Doctor. I even ran scandisk from
>Dos. Everything checks out ok.
>
>I sort of am wondering if the problem on my old slave drive may have
>been caused by the jumpers being incorrectly set, but I had them drives
>that way for at least 2 years. I'd think that would have shown up a lot
>sooner.
>
I too am wondering that, but I agree it seems unlikely that the problem
>>>according to several articles, the last connector goes to the first
>>>drive (which seems backwards).
>>>
>>No, as the article explains, if you only have one drive, and it was
>>connected to the middle connector, you'd have an unterminated stub of
>>cable, which isn't good electrically (reflections and so on). Apparently
>>for the 40 as opposed to 80 cables that _was_ the case, as they just
>>left out line 28 to the second connector (i. e. master was on the middle
>>connector).
>
>I better understand this now. I know I have the cable right now, and
>since I changed that jumper to CS, it looks like everything works fine
>now. (At least so far). I have copied and deleted files and defragged
>and scandisked, and ran Norton Dick Doctor. I even ran scandisk from
>Dos. Everything checks out ok.
>
>I sort of am wondering if the problem on my old slave drive may have
>been caused by the jumpers being incorrectly set, but I had them drives
>that way for at least 2 years. I'd think that would have shown up a lot
>sooner.
>
would show up after a while - I'd have thought it would be there from
the start, or not at all. And the fact that it only showed up in one
position (partition) does sound like a surface fault. (The fact that
reformatting now shows no fault _may_ mean the drive's electronics are
"sparing out" the dud bit, and the drive is usable again, but like you I
wouldn't use it for anything important.)
>
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
(please reply to group - they also serve who only look and lurk)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf
(William Allen, 1999 - after Milton, of course)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
Dec 19, 2017, 9:00:36 AM12/19/17
to
In message <pffh3dlovrptnangm...@4ax.com>,
ja...@nospam.com writes:
[]
utility on a floppy, that boots from the floppy - i. e. it is its own
operating system, neither DOS nor Windows nor Linux (it operates in
character mode, though is somewhat graphical - looks more like the BIOS
than anything else I can think of. Though IIRR you _can_ use the mouse
with it [possibly only a PS/2 one]). You can run it on a system with no
hard disc - in fact a lot of people do, e. g. when building a PC. Once
it has loaded, you can even take the floppy out. (See Paul's post for
how to make the floppy.)
(It can be put on a CD if you must. I suspect you'd prefer the floppy
though.)
ja...@nospam.com writes:
[]
>How do you test RAM?
>
>Hopefully its a Windows program, not linux....
>
See Paul's reply for exhaustive details, but the most-used way is from a
>
>Hopefully its a Windows program, not linux....
>
utility on a floppy, that boots from the floppy - i. e. it is its own
operating system, neither DOS nor Windows nor Linux (it operates in
character mode, though is somewhat graphical - looks more like the BIOS
than anything else I can think of. Though IIRR you _can_ use the mouse
with it [possibly only a PS/2 one]). You can run it on a system with no
hard disc - in fact a lot of people do, e. g. when building a PC. Once
it has loaded, you can even take the floppy out. (See Paul's post for
how to make the floppy.)
(It can be put on a CD if you must. I suspect you'd prefer the floppy
though.)
J. P. Gilliver (John)
Dec 19, 2017, 9:12:37 AM12/19/17
to
In message <p1b29f$2hp$1...@dont-email.me>, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid>
writes:
[]
when you turned it on, did a ticking memory test (remember those?),
until it got up to its massive 4M (IIRR) of memory, and then loaded DOS
4.x from its (10M it might have been) hard disc. It was one of those
heavy old machines with a machined metal case, and the huge power lever
switch on the side - original IBM style I think. It was kept to test
equipment (the company made avionics) of the same vintage; since it
worked, and we only got those units in once in a blue moon, it was not
worth rewriting all the software and redesigning the test hardware to
run on anything more modern.
[]
sense of humour!
[]
few websites that will now run with those browsers. (As a browser,
Firefox 2 - or even Netscape 6 to 9 - are fine. It's just that web pages
these days are mostly made using compilers that assume more capabilities
on the part of the browser, even when not necessary.)
Such machines can have standalone uses, such as the one above described,
or controlling hardware (such as machine tools), or even as servers -
print, storage, etc. - in even more modern networks, they don't _have_
to sit in the junk room. (There are even the usual stories about servers
- the story usually says Linux - which have been walled up somewhere,
and continued for years.)
>
> Paul
writes:
[]
>I have a few 18 year old machines, still in mint condition.
>
>No complaints. The installed OS still runs, just like it used to.
Yes, in the support department I worked in until March, we had one that,
>
>No complaints. The installed OS still runs, just like it used to.
when you turned it on, did a ticking memory test (remember those?),
until it got up to its massive 4M (IIRR) of memory, and then loaded DOS
4.x from its (10M it might have been) hard disc. It was one of those
heavy old machines with a machined metal case, and the huge power lever
switch on the side - original IBM style I think. It was kept to test
equipment (the company made avionics) of the same vintage; since it
worked, and we only got those units in once in a blue moon, it was not
worth rewriting all the software and redesigning the test hardware to
run on anything more modern.
[]
>I was booting something just yesterday, and in the
>boot log on the screen it said "18493843248 GB disk".
>Then the next line said "this is a really big disk".
What, those actual words? I like it when I come across someone with a
>boot log on the screen it said "18493843248 GB disk".
>Then the next line said "this is a really big disk".
sense of humour!
[]
>The main problem with old computers, is there's no
>decent web browser to use on them. That's why the
>machines sit in the Junk Room.
Indeed. Or rather, there are decent web browsers for them, but there are
>decent web browser to use on them. That's why the
>machines sit in the Junk Room.
few websites that will now run with those browsers. (As a browser,
Firefox 2 - or even Netscape 6 to 9 - are fine. It's just that web pages
these days are mostly made using compilers that assume more capabilities
on the part of the browser, even when not necessary.)
Such machines can have standalone uses, such as the one above described,
or controlling hardware (such as machine tools), or even as servers -
print, storage, etc. - in even more modern networks, they don't _have_
to sit in the junk room. (There are even the usual stories about servers
- the story usually says Linux - which have been walled up somewhere,
and continued for years.)
>
> Paul
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 19, 2017, 9:36:03 AM12/19/17
to
I've never used much optical media of any sort, so I never even thought
about it.
I do somewhat question where the dividing line is as far as power
hungry computers, VS those which are less hungry. This old machine never
seems to throw out much heat. It's a basic Pentium with coppermine
processor. The original power supply was 100W, which was too small as
soon as I added extra HDDs and other stuff. That PS failed, so I
replaced it with a 350W supply which I have used since.
However some of the old dual core machines were power hogs. I knew
someone with a Dell dual core machine that had 3 fans. You did not dare
run that thing in hot weather if the house had no AC. One of the fans
died in that machine and it was hot enough to fry an egg on it. I
replaced the fan for that person. What amazed me was that machine
running XP home ed. was 5 times slower than my 2001 machine I am using
right now. I actually thought the CPU had gotten so hot that it was
fried, but I was told that machine had always been that slow. A few
years later I acquired 2 similar machines. One was identical, the other
similar. Both of them were also very slow, and ran very hot.
I have since learned that those early dual core Dell machines were
always slow and were lousy computers. (Because of that, I'd never buy a
Dell). Although I never measured the power draw on those machines, I
know that heat is power consumption and those beasts were almost like
electric heaters. I am sure they sucked lots of power.
But the newer stuff runs cooler even with quad cores and a lot more
power needs. So, I kind of wonder if my 2001 machine is really not all
that bad on power use???
You got that right as far as no browser support anymore.... I keep
hoping someone will create a browser for them, but I wont hold my
breath.
I do have to keep asking why the internet is so bloated these days. It
actually worked better in the old days and was 10X more useful back
then. nd no, it's NOT videos thats causing the problems. I can run darn
near any video on this old computer with no problems, unless I am
defragging or running a HDD scanner at the same time. (Using Win98).
Of course the video software matters too. I use Media Player Classic.
Simple to use with no crap and no bloat.
Ammammata
Dec 19, 2017, 10:27:43 AM12/19/17
to
Il giorno Tue 19 Dec 2017 12:12:01p, ** ha inviato su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
news:k6sh3d9cks0lacpi4...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
> You sound like one of todays spoiled rotten youth who cant stand to have
> anything more than 2 years old
bullshit [cutting all the trash talk you wrote]
I'm 50yo, my home personal computer is a 10+ yo laptop where I put an SSD
to make it faster than light, and I'm saving money for my twins, using free
software (linux mint)
this doesn't mean that my opinion is what I wrote above: at *work* I have
an updated (4yo) computer just because my job requires such a device;
at home I make daily backups because I know that sooner or later the hw
will die
and to close this discussion, my 1993 486dx still runs windows nt4, the
1996 double pentium-pro runs w2k and the [unknown] thinkpad 380ED, with
MSDOS 6, allows me to play Duke Nukem 3D whenever I want.
r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr qv
dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn snppvn, pbtyvbar
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
news:k6sh3d9cks0lacpi4...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
> You sound like one of todays spoiled rotten youth who cant stand to have
> anything more than 2 years old
I'm 50yo, my home personal computer is a 10+ yo laptop where I put an SSD
to make it faster than light, and I'm saving money for my twins, using free
software (linux mint)
this doesn't mean that my opinion is what I wrote above: at *work* I have
an updated (4yo) computer just because my job requires such a device;
at home I make daily backups because I know that sooner or later the hw
will die
and to close this discussion, my 1993 486dx still runs windows nt4, the
1996 double pentium-pro runs w2k and the [unknown] thinkpad 380ED, with
MSDOS 6, allows me to play Duke Nukem 3D whenever I want.
r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr qv
dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn snppvn, pbtyvbar
Ammammata
Dec 19, 2017, 10:30:24 AM12/19/17
to
Il giorno Tue 19 Dec 2017 01:56:17p, *Paul* ha inviato su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio news:p1b29f$2hp$1@dont-
email.me. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
> I was booting something just yesterday, and in the
> boot log on the screen it said "18493843248 GB disk".
> Then the next line said "this is a really big disk".
>
I remember, running a game on my old 486 with 20Mb RAM, the message shown
on screen: "Please check your RAM because there must be an error" :)
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio news:p1b29f$2hp$1@dont-
email.me. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
> I was booting something just yesterday, and in the
> boot log on the screen it said "18493843248 GB disk".
> Then the next line said "this is a really big disk".
>
on screen: "Please check your RAM because there must be an error" :)
Paul
Dec 19, 2017, 1:50:10 PM12/19/17
to
J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> In message <p184gu$v74$1...@dont-email.me>, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid>
> writes:
>> ja...@nospam.com wrote:
>>
>>> I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
>>> Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
>
> Some BIOS/MOBOs can make them "look like" an [E]IDE drive. I don't know
> if that would make W98 be able to use them.
Intel provided that mode specifically for legacy OSes. Because
> writes:
>> ja...@nospam.com wrote:
>>
>>> I have no problem with SATA drives. I dont think they would work for
>>> Win98 though. One thing about them, I dont understand why the data cable
>
> Some BIOS/MOBOs can make them "look like" an [E]IDE drive. I don't know
> if that would make W98 be able to use them.
it shows up in I/O Space for the registers, and it uses INT14
and INT15 for the interrupt coming from those logic blocks. It
looks exactly like a crusty old IDE Southbridge.
That was Compatible IDE mode.
I managed to install Win98SE on an Asrock VIA board with a Core2
processor, and it screams. Even though it only can use one core
of the processor. So yes, you can run Win98 on at least some
modern hardware.
I think the Compatible mode disappeared at some point.
The Native IDE mode, the registers are in PCI space, and the
interrupts fall where-ever the equivalent of INTA would go.
WinXP has a driver for that, in-box I believe. WinXP doesn't
have an ACPI driver, which comes later in time.
>
> It seems an odd choice to me, to use small contacts, and then use a lot
> of them. Fair enough, I suppose, if you're feeding power through an
> existing multiway connector (though many connectors, e. g. DIN 41612,
> manage fine with varying pin sizes - I suppose not really on if you're
> using ribbon cable, though, as you'd need special ribbon), but in the
> case of the SATA connector, it's a separate connector anyway, so why not
> just use bigger pins! But it's settled now, so I suppose we're stuck
> with it. But I share James's dissatisfaction with it - the power
> connector being bigger than the data one, without it being obvious
> that's the reason because it has bigger pins, feels odd.
> []
in a fixed relation to one another. Kinda a 22 pin connector with
a gap. The wafer design means it can be made as cheaply as
USB. Just extend the PCB of the hard drive, to make some contacts.
While the personal computer application rates the connector
at 50 insertions, I would expect the backplane application, with the
extra guidance provided by the packaging, the insertion count would
be a lot higher. The backplane doesn't have to do any "pinching"
to hold the connector on.
Paul
philo
Dec 19, 2017, 7:11:31 PM12/19/17
to
https://www.memtest86.com/download.htm
free version is fine
If there are any errors at all you do not have to run the test any
further, your memory is either bad or the contacts need to be cleaned.
Any serious errors will show up within the first few minutes, but I'd
let it run for at least an hour.
But like I said, any error at all you can stop the test
philo
Dec 19, 2017, 7:41:27 PM12/19/17
to
On 12/19/2017 06:56 AM, Paul wrote:
<snip>
e in the newsgroups tested
> at the time, is they inserted a SATA PCI card into
> the machine. And the BIOS just ignored it, and the
> OS couldn't use it. So again, if you use hardware
> cards the BIOS has never heard of, there will be
> problems.
>
> But these really aren't surprises. It's to be
> expected things like this will happen.
>
> I was booting something just yesterday, and in the
> boot log on the screen it said "18493843248 GB disk".
> Then the next line said "this is a really big disk".
> No shit. So again, modern software is never prepared
> for surprises, even if the software was written
> in 2017. I don't know how the booting OS in that
> case, had managed to query the disk drive, but
> it got an absurdly large (wrong) size from it. No software
> is really "prepared for infinity and beyond" :-)
>
> The main problem with old computers, is there's no
> decent web browser to use on them. That's why the
> machines sit in the Junk Room.
>
> Paul
A few years ago I gave away a huge, dual power supply server with a lot
of SCSI drives in it.
Worked just fine but it absolutely would have run up the electric bill
For the last few years I've been getting those inexpensive cpu/mobo combos.
No problems with them and they take 25 watts maybe
<snip>
e in the newsgroups tested
> at the time, is they inserted a SATA PCI card into
> the machine. And the BIOS just ignored it, and the
> OS couldn't use it. So again, if you use hardware
> cards the BIOS has never heard of, there will be
> problems.
>
> But these really aren't surprises. It's to be
> expected things like this will happen.
>
> I was booting something just yesterday, and in the
> boot log on the screen it said "18493843248 GB disk".
> Then the next line said "this is a really big disk".
> No shit. So again, modern software is never prepared
> for surprises, even if the software was written
> in 2017. I don't know how the booting OS in that
> case, had managed to query the disk drive, but
> it got an absurdly large (wrong) size from it. No software
> is really "prepared for infinity and beyond" :-)
>
> The main problem with old computers, is there's no
> decent web browser to use on them. That's why the
> machines sit in the Junk Room.
>
> Paul
of SCSI drives in it.
Worked just fine but it absolutely would have run up the electric bill
For the last few years I've been getting those inexpensive cpu/mobo combos.
No problems with them and they take 25 watts maybe
JT
Dec 19, 2017, 8:44:57 PM12/19/17
to
Ammammata wrote:
> Il giorno Tue 19 Dec 2017 12:12:01p, ** ha inviato su
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
> news:k6sh3d9cks0lacpi4...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha
> scritto:
>
> > You sound like one of todays spoiled rotten youth who cant stand to
> > have anything more than 2 years old
>
> bullshit [cutting all the trash talk you wrote]
>
> I'm 50yo, my home personal computer is a 10+ yo laptop where I put an
> SSD to make it faster than light, and I'm saving money for my twins,
> using free software (linux mint)
>
> this doesn't mean that my opinion is what I wrote above: at work I
> Il giorno Tue 19 Dec 2017 12:12:01p, ** ha inviato su
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
> news:k6sh3d9cks0lacpi4...@4ax.com. Vediamo cosa ha
> scritto:
>
> > You sound like one of todays spoiled rotten youth who cant stand to
> > have anything more than 2 years old
>
> bullshit [cutting all the trash talk you wrote]
>
> I'm 50yo, my home personal computer is a 10+ yo laptop where I put an
> SSD to make it faster than light, and I'm saving money for my twins,
> using free software (linux mint)
>
> have an updated (4yo) computer just because my job requires such a
> device; at home I make daily backups because I know that sooner or
> later the hw will die
>
> and to close this discussion, my 1993 486dx still runs windows nt4,
> the 1996 double pentium-pro runs w2k and the [unknown] thinkpad
> 380ED, with MSDOS 6, allows me to play Duke Nukem 3D whenever I want.
>
> r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr
> qv dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn snppvn,
> pbtyvbar
Close as I could translate...
> device; at home I make daily backups because I know that sooner or
> later the hw will die
>
> and to close this discussion, my 1993 486dx still runs windows nt4,
> the 1996 double pentium-pro runs w2k and the [unknown] thinkpad
> 380ED, with MSDOS 6, allows me to play Duke Nukem 3D whenever I want.
>
> r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr
> qv dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn snppvn,
> pbtyvbar
and for good hand, you go fuck yourself, before you talk bad about
someone doing at least pretend to know who he is and what he does,
asshole.
--
ja...@nospam.com
Dec 19, 2017, 9:49:08 PM12/19/17
to
On Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:50:10 -0500, Paul <nos...@needed.invalid> wrote:
>I managed to install Win98SE on an Asrock VIA board with a Core2
>processor, and it screams. Even though it only can use one core
>of the processor. So yes, you can run Win98 on at least some
>modern hardware.
>
Roughly when (year) did they stop making mobos and drivers for Win98
>I managed to install Win98SE on an Asrock VIA board with a Core2
>processor, and it screams. Even though it only can use one core
>of the processor. So yes, you can run Win98 on at least some
>modern hardware.
>
compatibility? I've been thinking about getting a faster machine that I
can still run Win98 on. Often those old machines sell for little to
nothing on ebay and I'd kind of like to have a different tower case
anyhow, since I cant close mine due to the oversize power supply.
I'd most likely get another Lenovo (IBM) machine since they last
forever. It WONT be a Dell though....
I always wanted to see just how fast Win98 can run on newer hardware.
plus it would be nice to get a MOBO with USB 2 ports.
98 Guy
Dec 19, 2017, 10:32:02 PM12/19/17
to
ja...@nospam.com wrote:
>> I managed to install Win98SE on an Asrock VIA board with a Core2
>> processor, and it screams.
Yes, I also have a win-98 system running on a socket-775 Core2
>> I managed to install Win98SE on an Asrock VIA board with a Core2
>> processor, and it screams.
motherboard with Via chipset.
> Roughly when (year) did they stop making mobos and drivers for Win98
> compatibility?
Intel-based knowledge here.
Win-98 will run on all motherboards with Intel socket-478 CPU. That
generally means 8xx series chipsets (845, 865, 875). There will be
win-9x drivers for all motherboard components on those boards (AGP/PCI,
IDE, SATA (some will have sata), USB, on-board or integrated video, etc.
Those boards were "current" from around 2000/2001 to as late as 2003 -
2005 time frame. These boards were the last to have AC-97 on-board
audio (which also have win-9x drivers).
The "core" (socket 775) boards were next, and they ran out of steam
around 2007. There will be no win-9x drivers for those boards unless
they have Via chipset (PT880 is the most common) and possibly ALI
chipset. Those boards will almost always have SATA, and (if VIA
chipset) will have Win-9x drivers for SATA as well as everything else
except for on-board HD audio. All 775-based boards will have HD-audio,
and to my knowledge there is no workable solution for win-98 and HD
audio. You will have to add a PCI sound card (Creative sound blaster is
most common) to have win-98 working with sound on these systems.
So if you are looking for the most high-performance motherboards that
can natively support most or almost all integrated functions, then you
will be looking for Socket-775 with Via chipset. The Asrock 4CoreDual
VSTA being one such board - it has both AGP and PCIe slot for video
(only one of them can be used - not both at same time). This is useful
if you have AGP card with win-9x drivers. PCIe video cards for win-9x
are problematic. Win-9x can't handle PCIe or AGP video cards with more
than 256 mb ram on the video card. There is also no USB-3 solution for
win-98 (and in reality there are very few USB-3 solutions for XP).
There are ways to get win-98 somewhat functional on some of the newer
motherboards, but unless you stuff the board with additional PCI cards
(for hard drive, USB, etc) it is pointless to do that.
Regarding win-98 and SATA, the generic SATA controllers made by Silicon
Image (SI) - specifically the SATA-1 controllers (SIL3112, 3114) have
win-98 drivers. Those controller chips will be found on some socket-478
motherboards, maybe some 775 boards, and many aftermarket PCI sata
cards. Adding SATA drives to a win-98 system by using an expansion SATA
PCI card (not PCI-express card) is relatively easy and works well. I
have a variety of SATA drives, from 250 gb to 1.5 tb, that I connect to
my win-98 systems. Win-98 has no problems working with these large
drives, even when they're formatted as a single FAT32 volume.
Paul
Dec 20, 2017, 12:13:38 AM12/20/17
to
https://www.asrock.com/MB/VIA/4CoreDual-SATA2%20R2.0/index.us.asp#Download
It's got a little of everything, but it
does have plenty of limits.
Don't overpay for it - it was only $65 Canadian at the time.
4 PCI slots (I might have had one of my CMI8738 sound cards in there...)
1 AGP8X slot (for my FX5200 AGP, Win98SE driver)
1 PCIe x16 slot (wired x4, there was a compatible video card list)
(I never even tested this. I doubt Win98 has the
arch for this either, as it would only have GART.)
DDR400 two slots or
DDR2-533 (it says 667 but just use low CAS DDR2-533 in it, as it's
as stable as the Rock of Gibraltar that way.)
Core2 Dual or Quad - try a dual core, as the quad slowed down a bit
for some reason.
- FSB is limited to FSB1066. I used an FSB800
processor. It would be nice to use an E8400
with FSB1333, but the chipset won't go that high
on the FSB.
I used an E4700, but there is also the E7600. The reason I didn't
go with the E7600 is because I didn't know whether the chipset
(overclocked when running at FSB1066) would handle it well or not.
https://ark.intel.com/products/34441/Intel-Core2-Duo-Processor-E4700-2M-Cache-2_60-GHz-800-MHz-FSB
https://ark.intel.com/products/41495/Intel-Core2-Duo-Processor-E7600-3M-Cache-3_06-GHz-1066-MHz-FSB
The only time the amount of cache matters, is when you compress with 7ZIP.
The R2 board (revision 2), they changed the clock generator
chip, then they didn't update the BIOS file with driver code
for the new clock generator. As a result, the board runs fine
if you don't overclock. The clockgen accepts BSEL signals
from the LGA775 socket that select the correct clock. However,
if you enter the BIOS and even touch the knob to turn up the
BCLK, the register writing code is all wrong for the
new clock gen, and the board goes nuts. So you can't overclock
using the BIOS.
I did manage to overclock it, doing a BSEL socket mod and
a VCore voltmod. But it wasn't stable so I turned it down again.
It ran for about 10 minutes at 3.2GHz or so.
A lot of fun for $65. The processor cost more than that.
It only really has one egregious sin. I plugged my WinTV
card into a PCI slot, and that triggers a workaround which
*ruins* performance. As soon as you unplug the WinTV (BT878)
card, everything returns to normal. I got another motherboard
to replace it at that point, a board that would not flinch
if a WinTV card was plugged in. I had no hint this was going
to happen, until I plugged in the card.
What happens when you plug in the WinTV card, is the disk
drive sustained read drops to 30MB/sec. As time passes
(around ten minutes), the disk drive drops to 20MB/sec.
At that level of I/O, this gets tired fast. If I wanted that
kind of speed, I'd use my Mac :-)
On the plus side, that board is really easy on power
consumption. The 65W processor uses 36W running Prime95,
and the VIA chipset is a miser on power. Because there
are no graphics in the Northbridge, and because the
PCIe lane count is only x4 lanes, it doesn't really have
a lot of high speed I/O. The AGP slot interface probably
used more power than anything else on the Northbridge.
The Southbridge only had two SATA ports, but the 8237S
supports SATA II drives, so the thing isn't all bad.
I've never tested any really fast drives on it, to see
if it had any sins to report. Like, use an SSD on it.
The board is really a "hackers delight". It's not
the best choice for someone who expects an all-you-can-eat
buffet. Everything you do is a little project.
The best BIOS for the motherboard, is a hacked version
done by a guy in Germany. Just to give you some idea.
He didn't fix the clockgen though, as I don't know if
the necessary code is floating around in the wild
for that. What the hacked BIOS did have, was working
EIST, something that Intel lawyers were trying to
prevent Asrock from giving to customers. EIST changes
the multiplier from say x9 to x6 on my other Core2 processor,
to save power when the desktop is idle. Intel wanted
to punish Asrock for continuing to ship a VIA chipset,
by revoking their right to put EIST on the motherboard.
The guy in Germany turned it back on again. The ease
with which the guy in Germany turned it back on,
tells me it was a legal issue, not a technical issue,
that prevented Asrock from turning that on, BIOS
release after BIOS release. Asrock never fixed that.
What was weird, is they kept releasing new BIOS
revisions, but there were a few things they just
refused to fix. I concluded from that, that lawyers
were involved. Intel at the time, was trying to squeeze
VIA out of the picture (they didn't license the next
bus interface to VIA, preventing VIA from making
newer chipsets).
If I was looking for such a product on Ebay, I'd look
for a whole system, and hope that the person selling
it, knew what to do to it :-)
If you put a quad processor on it, like an E6700,
it would make the system run hotter. And then, would
you try to run Win10 on it ? It would be fast enough
for that. But there was some issue with benchmarks
seeming to indicate some clock was getting turned
down a bit. Since I wasn't running a quad, I never
did any further research on it.
On the RAM, it officially takes 2x1GB DDR2-533 no problem.
The VIA web site says 2x1GB is the limit, yet I did plug
2x2GB into it, and it recognized the RAM. However, it
was throwing errors like crazy with the 2x2GB, which tells
you the BIOS wasn't "tuned" to run 2GB sticks. So even
VIA would not admit (on their web site) that it could
use 2GB sticks. Weird. With the 2x1GB plugged back in,
you could Prime95 all day long, no sweat. Very stable.
To install Win98, you do the basic install, then
you stop the install before it reboots, and edit
the file that limits "visible" RAM, to 512MB. Then
allow it to boot to Windows and the screen comes up
for the first time. I used Linux to edit that text file :-)
The machine had 2x1GB installed, which is too much for
Win98, but the file edit reduces the visible RAM to
a more comfortable 512MB. That's one of the reasons
it runs OK.
Paul
Ammammata
Dec 20, 2017, 2:47:56 AM12/20/17
to
Il giorno Wed 20 Dec 2017 02:44:53a, *JT* ha inviato su
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
news:p1cfal$19ei$1...@gioia.aioe.org. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
>> r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr
>> qv dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn snppvn,
>> pbtyvbar
>
> Close as I could translate...
>
>
> naq sbe tbbq unaq, lbh tb shpx lbhefrys, orsber lbh gnyx onq nobhg
> fbzrbar qbvat ng yrnfg cergraq gb xabj jub ur vf naq jung ur qbrf,
> nffubyr.
>
>
well, my idea was to obfuscate bad words (there are children reading the
ng) and leave the final comment as "private"
microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
news:p1cfal$19ei$1...@gioia.aioe.org. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
>> r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr
>> qv dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn snppvn,
>> pbtyvbar
>
> Close as I could translate...
>
>
> fbzrbar qbvat ng yrnfg cergraq gb xabj jub ur vf naq jung ur qbrf,
> nffubyr.
>
>
well, my idea was to obfuscate bad words (there are children reading the
ng) and leave the final comment as "private"
JT
Dec 20, 2017, 8:20:38 PM12/20/17
to
Ammammata wrote:
> Il giorno Wed 20 Dec 2017 02:44:53a, JT ha inviato su
Sorry about that.
JT
--
> Il giorno Wed 20 Dec 2017 02:44:53a, JT ha inviato su
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.general il messaggio
> news:p1cfal$19ei$1...@gioia.aioe.org. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
>
> >> r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr
> >> qv dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn
> snppvn, >> pbtyvbar
> >
> > Close as I could translate...
> >
> >
> > naq sbe tbbq unaq, lbh tb shpx lbhefrys, orsber lbh gnyx onq nobhg
> > fbzrbar qbvat ng yrnfg cergraq gb xabj jub ur vf naq jung ur qbrf,
> > nffubyr.
> >
> >
>
> well, my idea was to obfuscate bad words (there are children reading
> the ng) and leave the final comment as "private"
Oops!
> news:p1cfal$19ei$1...@gioia.aioe.org. Vediamo cosa ha scritto:
>
> >> r cre ohban znab, irqv qv naqner nssnaphyb, r cevzn qv cneyner znyr
> >> qv dhnyphab snv nyzrab svagn qv vasbeznegv fh puv fvn r pbfn
> snppvn, >> pbtyvbar
> >
> > Close as I could translate...
> >
> >
> > naq sbe tbbq unaq, lbh tb shpx lbhefrys, orsber lbh gnyx onq nobhg
> > fbzrbar qbvat ng yrnfg cergraq gb xabj jub ur vf naq jung ur qbrf,
> > nffubyr.
> >
> >
>
> well, my idea was to obfuscate bad words (there are children reading
> the ng) and leave the final comment as "private"
Sorry about that.
JT
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