Is Visual C++ totally free?
Sanny
I visited http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/
Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to download?
There are two downloads One in green other in yellow which one should
I download.
Will I be able to create Applications with the free version?
Will the program made with free version run on all Computers?
Windows 98/ XP/ Vista/ Mac OS Will all of them be able to run the
Program?
What is the size of download. Is the free version Stable and error
free?
How many days will it take for me to leanrn VC++? Is it a simple
language?
What is the Cost of Buying Visual C++. Is it totally free?
There is one Offline download. How much time it will take to download
Complete VC++?
Bye
Sanny
Rolf Magnus
> I am newbie in VC++
>
> I visited http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/
>
> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to download?
There is a free version that is limited. But AFAIK, the compiler is the same
as in the commercial version.
> There are two downloads One in green other in yellow which one should
> I download.
>
> Will I be able to create Applications with the free version?
Yes.
> Will the program made with free version run on all Computers?
By far not.
> Windows 98/ XP/ Vista/ Mac OS Will all of them be able to run the
> Program?
No.
> What is the size of download. Is the free version Stable and error
> free?
I'd expect it to be about as stable and error free as the commercial one.
Or do you think that someone deliberately added bugs to the free version?
> How many days will it take for me to leanrn VC++?
Depends on your previous knowledge and how fast a learner you are.
> Is it a simple language?
No.
> What is the Cost of Buying Visual C++. Is it totally free?
This is not a shop. Ask someone who sells software.
> There is one Offline download.
How's an "offline download" supposed to work?
> How much time it will take to download Complete VC++?
That depends on your intenet connection, I guess.
osmium
> How many days will it take for me to leanrn VC++? Is it a simple
> language?
Think in terms of hundreds of days, not tens of days. Note that VC++ is a
_product_, not a language. The C++ language is hugely complex and is the
result of many minds, resulting in a lot of inconsistency. Think of welding
English onto Esperanto. You can also use baling wire, rope, bolts, brazing,
soldering or vines you find laying around to attach the two languages.
PvdG42
"Sanny" <soft...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:33af1c7b-df89-49e2...@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
depends on factors not in evidence, like the speed of your internet
connection.
If the express edition will allow you to create an empty C++ console
project, *and* you write only ISO standard C++ code, then that code should
be capable of being recompiled (possibly as is, possibly with minor
modification) on any platform where there is a C++ compiler available. I
don't use the Express edition, so I cannot be sure that project type will be
there.
As you've been told, C++ is very complex and feature-rich. The learning
curve is steep, but worth the effort, IMHO.
Alex Blekhman
>> How many days will it take for me to leanrn VC++? Is it a
>> simple language?
>
> Think in terms of hundreds of days, not tens of days.
http://norvig.com/21-days.html
:)
Alex
Tommy
> How many days will it take for me to leanrn VC++? Is it a simple
> language?
If you have to ask, then you will be frustrated. It will not be
measured in days, but many months and years. Programming is a LIFE
thing, you either like it or you don't and be ready to long nights.
But if you enjoy programming, it should come easy to you.
You might consider starting with C first. The two go together, then
C++ will follow. But it all depends on your mentally.
--
Sherm Pendley
> Sanny wrote:
>
>> There is one Offline download.
>
> How's an "offline download" supposed to work?
It's poorly named, but it's actually pretty useful. The "online"
installer is quite small, but needs to connect to the internet and
download the components you want. It's nice if you want to install it
on a single PC with an always-on net connection.
The "offline" installer is entirely self-contained. It's huge, but once
you download it you have no further need for a net connection. It's
useful if you want to install on a PC that's not connected, or if you
have a bunch of PCs you can download it once and put it on a file server
or CD.
sherm--
--
My blog: http://shermspace.blogspot.com
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Erik Wikström
> I am newbie in VC++
>
> I visited http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/
>
> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to download?
Yes, but there might be some limitations such that you might not be
allowed to download it if your are a terrorist.
> There are two downloads One in green other in yellow which one should
> I download.
The yellow. The green is Visual C#, which is something else.
> Will I be able to create Applications with the free version?
Yes.
> Will the program made with free version run on all Computers?
>
> Windows 98/ XP/ Vista/ Mac OS Will all of them be able to run the
> Program?
No, only on computers running Windows (might not work on Windows 98 or
earlier). Of course, if you keep your code portable (by not using any
platform specific stuff) you can always recompile your code on whatever
other platforms you want to run it on.
> What is the size of download. Is the free version Stable and error
> free?
About as stable and error free as you might expect of software of this
size and complexity.
> How many days will it take for me to leanrn VC++? Is it a simple
> language?
Very long, but with a good book your should be up and writing small
applications in a matter of days (depending on how much time and effort
you put into it).
> What is the Cost of Buying Visual C++. Is it totally free?
There are several versions of Visual C++ (or rather Visual Studio), the
Express edition that you are looking at downloading is totally free, the
other versions costs a lot of money and you should not consider buying
any of them at the moment.
--
Erik Wikström
Timothy Madden
Hy Sanny,
This newsgroup discusses C++ as a language, not Visual C++, which
is a product. Visual C++ is only an implementation, but there
are many, many others. Here we are discussing about the standard
(it is called ISO 14882). For more details about VC++ I am sure
you can find a VC++ newsgroup provided by Microsoft.
That said, C++ is for sure not an easy language to learn, but if
you manage to learn it properly (I mean C++, not VC++) your
programs should be able to compile and run on a variety of
computers. But if fast learning is what you want, you would
better choose another language.
Programmes that you have compiled only run on the platform that
they were compiled to run on. Think of a platform as a combination
of CPU and operating system. In your case for example the platform
would be Intel 386 on Windows or i386-win for short (even if you
have a better processor in your computer). If you want your
program to run on any computer you should compile it on every
computer, or at a minimum you must compile it on every platform.
Using the source code directly to distribute your program, instead of
the already compiled program is the way to achieve this portability.
If you want a totally free compiler, I am sure you can find a good
quality one if you search the internet careful enough.
Hope that helps,
Timothy Madden
Sherm Pendley
> This newsgroup discusses C++ as a language, not Visual C++, which
> is a product.
True enough about comp.lang.c++, but his message was also cross-posted
to the microsoft.public.vc.language group.
> For more details about VC++ I am sure
> you can find a VC++ newsgroup provided by Microsoft.
He did. :-)
Lynn McGuire
10,000 hours:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/nov/15/malcolm-gladwell-outliers-extract
> Is it a simple language?
Yes and No.
Lynn
Ron Francis at
news:33af1c7b-df89-49e2...@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Sanny,
I looked at the express version a while ago and decided that it wasn't worth
it for me.
The main drawback is that it doesn't come with a dialog editor.
A dialog editor lets you design a dialog box visually which you can use in
your programs.
Dialog boxes include things like edit boxes, list boxes, check boxes, radio
buttons etc.
Doing this manually would be almost like learning a new language.
But, you may be able to find a cheap standard version of VC++ on eBay like I
did.
Mine is VC++ 2005 and cost a little over $100 from memory.
Regards,
Ron Francis
www.RonaldFrancis.com
Sanny
> it for me.
> The main drawback is that it doesn't come with a dialog editor.
> A dialog editor lets you design a dialog box visually which you can use in
> your programs.
> Dialog boxes include things like edit boxes, list boxes, check boxes, radio
> buttons etc.
> Doing this manually would be almost like learning a new language.
Is there any other VC++ which provides this feature? Can you provide
me link to other stable packages?
What is the cost of Upgrading? Which comes with all features?
> But, you may be able to find a cheap standard version of VC++ on eBay like I
> did.
> Mine is VC++ 2005 and cost a little over $100 from memory.
I searchrd ebay But could not find any. Is VC++ 2005 better than the
express edition that comes free?
Bye
Sanny
Tom Serface
version does not include MFC so I find it very limiting when it comes to
creating applications, but you can certainly learn C++ using it.
Tom
"Sanny" <soft...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:33af1c7b-df89-49e2...@o40g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
Sanny
>
> There are several versions of Visual C++ (or rather Visual Studio), the
> Express edition that you are looking at downloading is totally free, the
> other versions costs a lot of money and you should not consider buying
> any of them at the moment.
Is this free version limited or a 30 days Trial Version?
Bye
Sanny
Sanny
> measured in days, but many months and years. Programming is a LIFE
> thing, you either like it or you don't and be ready to long nights.
> But if you enjoy programming, it should come easy to you.
>
> You might consider starting with C first. The two go together, then
> C++ will follow. But it all depends on your mentally.
Where can I find a good C++ Compiler. Is there any C++ developing
Environment where I can create Applications with Forms & Dialog Boxes?
Bye
Sanny
Nathan Mates
Sanny <soft...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> There are several versions of Visual C++ (or rather Visual Studio), the
>> Express edition that you are looking at downloading is totally free, the
>> other versions costs a lot of money and you should not consider buying
>> any of them at the moment.
>Is this free version limited or a 30 days Trial Version?
Visual Studio Express is limited in features -- no plugins, no MFC
(which is a *VERY GOOD THING* in my opinion; MFC is a rotten piece of
junk), no ATL (boo - WTL is far better than MFC), no dialog editor
(real programmers edit .rc files by hand), no 64-bit compiler (not
needed for 99.99% of beginner's projects), etc. You can still install
DirectX and go to town creating games. Visual Studio Express is not
limited by time.
Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates - personal webpage http://www.visi.com/~nathan/
# Programmer at Pandemic Studios -- http://www.pandemicstudios.com/
# NOT speaking for Pandemic Studios. "Care not what the neighbors
# think. What are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" -R.A. Heinlein
Nathan Mates
Sanny <soft...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> If you have to ask, then you will be frustrated. =A0It will not be
>> measured in days, but many months and years. Programming is a LIFE
>> thing, you either like it or you don't and be ready to long nights.
>> But if you enjoy programming, it should come easy to you.
>> You might consider starting with C first. The two go together, then
>> C++ will follow. =A0But it all depends on your mentally.
>Where can I find a good C++ Compiler. Is there any C++ developing
>Environment where I can create Applications with Forms & Dialog Boxes?
Frankly, you've missed the *whole point* of C++ if you want to do
forms & dialog boxes. Sounds like you're looking for Visual Basic,
instead. The entire premise of C/C++ is that the core language doesn't
do a lot of GUI and/or multimedia stuff, out of the box. C/C++ use
addon libraries to do such things, and as such, they're not tied to
any one platform (PC/Mac/Unix/other), or the like. You can certainly
code Win32 UIs in C/C++. Just that it won't be the most intuitive or
fun language.
Frankly, if you want to do 'Forms & Dialog Boxes', use C# instead.
Erik Wikström
Visual C++ Express 2008 is a good C++ compiler, and with it you can
create GUI applications if you like. Either by using the Windows API or
by using some third part GUI framework like Qt, wxWidgets, Gtkmm, etc.
Or you could use Visual C++ Express 2008 to write C++/CLI applications
and use Windows Forms or WPF, but if that's your goal I would recommend
that you learn C# instead.
--
Erik Wikström
James Kanze
> Visual C++ Express 2008 is a good C++ compiler, and with it
> you can create GUI applications if you like. Either by using
> the Windows API or by using some third part GUI framework like
> Qt, wxWidgets, Gtkmm, etc. Or you could use Visual C++
> Express 2008 to write C++/CLI applications and use Windows
> Forms or WPF, but if that's your goal I would recommend that
> you learn C# instead.
Since you're the second one who's said it: why C# and not Java?
Java is certainly more portable, Swing isn't bad as GUI
libraries go, and Sun has a lot of good tutorials. (The quality
and the availability of on-line tutorials is one area where Java
has C++ beat.)
--
James Kanze (GABI Software) email:james...@gmail.com
Conseils en informatique orientée objet/
Beratung in objektorientierter Datenverarbeitung
9 place Sémard, 78210 St.-Cyr-l'École, France, +33 (0)1 30 23 00 34
Erik Wikström
> On Nov 22, 9:52 am, Erik Wikström <Erik-wikst...@telia.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Visual C++ Express 2008 is a good C++ compiler, and with it
>> you can create GUI applications if you like. Either by using
>> the Windows API or by using some third part GUI framework like
>> Qt, wxWidgets, Gtkmm, etc. Or you could use Visual C++
>> Express 2008 to write C++/CLI applications and use Windows
>> Forms or WPF, but if that's your goal I would recommend that
>> you learn C# instead.
>
> Since you're the second one who's said it: why C# and not Java?
> Java is certainly more portable, Swing isn't bad as GUI
> libraries go, and Sun has a lot of good tutorials. (The quality
> and the availability of on-line tutorials is one area where Java
> has C++ beat.)
Probably because I prefer C# over Java as a language, and the fact that
the Visual C# IDE is one of the best IDEs I've used, and I consider the
tools for quitckly building GUI applications using Windows Forms (I have
never tried to make WPF applications) second to none.
Of course when choosing C# over Java you lose portability (I'm not sure
what the status of Mono) but for people like the OP I doubt that it will
matter much.
--
Erik Wikström
red floyd
Have you even thought of going to Microsoft's website and looking for
yourself? Why should we help you when you obviously aren't even trying
to find this out yourself?
Not to mention that it's totally off-topic for comp.lang.c++.
F/U to microsoft.public.vc.language only.
PvdG42
simply go to the Microsoft web site and do a bit of checking?
http://www.microsoft.com/express/vc/
Jorgen Grahn
On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 07:06:25 -0600, osmium <r124c...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Sanny" wrote:
>
>> How many days will it take for me to leanrn VC++? Is it a simple
>> language?
>
> Think in terms of hundreds of days, not tens of days.
Yes, kind of. Bjarne says it better (for standard C++):
http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq.html#How-long
> Note that VC++ is a
> _product_, not a language. The C++ language is hugely complex and is the
> result of many minds, resulting in a lot of inconsistency. Think of welding
> English onto Esperanto. You can also use baling wire, rope, bolts, brazing,
> soldering or vines you find laying around to attach the two languages.
That's one opinion, but most C++ programmers will disagree with you.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu
\X/ snipabacken.se> R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Giovanni Dicanio
"Tom Serface" <tom.n...@camaswood.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:DB87FCB2-485D-4FD5...@microsoft.com...
> One thing worth noting (at least from my perspective) is that the Express
> version does not include MFC so I find it very limiting when it comes to
> creating applications, but you can certainly learn C++ using it.
You can use WTL with the Express edition, and I think that you can use QT
and wxWidgets, too.
This is a CodeProject article about using WTL with VC++ Express edition (I
read that probably from a post by Igor or Alex Bleckhman here):
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/wtl/WTLExpress.aspx
Giovanni
Rolf Magnus
>> Since you're the second one who's said it: why C# and not Java?
>> Java is certainly more portable, Swing isn't bad as GUI
>> libraries go, and Sun has a lot of good tutorials. (The quality
>> and the availability of on-line tutorials is one area where Java
>> has C++ beat.)
>
> Probably because I prefer C# over Java as a language, and the fact that
> the Visual C# IDE is one of the best IDEs I've used, and I consider the
> tools for quitckly building GUI applications using Windows Forms (I have
> never tried to make WPF applications) second to none.
>
> Of course when choosing C# over Java you lose portability (I'm not sure
> what the status of Mono) but for people like the OP I doubt that it will
> matter much.
Well, he did ask if his programs will run on a Mac.
Ron Francis at
news:poidnQ6sFZIoArrU...@posted.visi...
> In article
> <ff61005e-6d7c-4413...@i18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> (real programmers edit .rc files by hand>
Nathan Mates
I think you could have chosen a better word than 'real' there so as not to
make those of us that use an editor feel less real.
Two questions for you ...
Where would one lean about the format of an .rc file if one hadn't had any
experience with it?
(Mainly for Sanny's sake if he is considering the Express edition.)
What advantages would there be to creating your own rather than editing one
that had been created in an editor?
Ron Francis..
Alex Blekhman
>> (real programmers edit .rc files by hand>
> Nathan Mates
>
> I think you could have chosen a better word than 'real' there so
> as not to make those of us that use an editor feel less real.
True uber programmers don't need even a compiler. They write their
programs directly in object codes in command-line hex editor.
Alex
Giovanni Dicanio
"Nathan Mates" <nat...@visi.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:poidnQ6sFZIoArrU...@posted.visi...
> Visual Studio Express is limited in features -- no plugins, no MFC
> (which is a *VERY GOOD THING* in my opinion; MFC is a rotten piece of
> junk), no ATL (boo - WTL is far better than MFC),
There is an article on CodeProject about using WTL on VC++ Express:
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/wtl/WTLExpress.aspx
Giovanni
Giovanni Dicanio
"Alex Blekhman" <tkfx....@yahoo.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:%23suTl8T...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Alex: will the next step be the punched-cards? ;)
Giovanni
Bo Persson
And then front panel switches?
Bo Persson
Alex Blekhman
>> True uber programmers don't need even a compiler. They write
>> their programs directly in object codes in command-line hex
>> editor.
>
> Alex: will the next step be the punched-cards? ;)
Rocks, actually.
:)
Alex
Giovanni Dicanio
Hendrik Schober
> [...]
>
> You might consider starting with C first. The two go together, then
> C++ will follow. But it all depends on your mentally.
I consider this very bad advice.
If you follow it, you will first learn a lot of techniques
that you later need to "forget" in order to use better,
safer, and simpler idioms.
If you want to learn C++ fast, use "Accelerated C++" by
Koenig and Moo. Note, however:
1. If this has to steep a learning curve for you (it has
for most C++ beginners), then you will need to take
longer to learn C++. It's the language that makes the
task complex, not the book.
2. The book will make you an entry-level novice to C++,
not a C++ programmer. However, there's no further
shortcut. (see #3)
3. If you think you've found a book that makes you learn
C++ easier _and_ faster, most likely you've found the
wrong book. There are many bad C++ books out there.
Learning from them will make you a bad C++ programmer.
Schobi
Tommy
company.
But overall, I believe unless you remove all the idiosyncrasies that
are inherently embedded in C++ related to C knowledge, like pointers,
etc, then he will always be short changed coming back to the lots of C
related issues. After all C++ is C!! What do you think all darn
templates are written in, PASCAL?
Also consider, when reading documentations, web sites, code and
examples out there, requires you to at least a background in C or you
will be a lost puppy.
Geez, the #1 concept of a better problem resolver/programmer is
understanding the background. He will be add a disadvantage.
He might as well go to C# or some other higher level wrapping language
if he doesn't want to deal with many of the issues that C++ will bring
you related to C.
Finally, the reality is this:
I have never and would never hire a C++ programmer who
doesn't understand C.
Its a waste of money. Consider that the coming slow economy, the idea
of having well rounded programmer with system engineering experience
is more attractive than having a long wolf expert in just one language
who inevitably someone else is going to have to help him, meaning a
person who can work on his own, tackle any language or at least not be
lost of using it and can move forward to even learn the basics to
utilize it for a purpose, i.e, XML - yeah, its funny, thats a LANGUAGE
TOOL according to many.
Don't read this wrong, a person can start with C++ but it will be
almost impossible to be an expert in it without having more than just
basic knowledge of C. Read what I said - be an EXPERT.
---
Hendrik Schober wrote:
> Tommy wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>> You might consider starting with C first. The two go together, then
>> C++ will follow. But it all depends on your mentality.
David Connet
news:JtCVk.4284$U5.3...@newsb.telia.net:
>> Will the program made with free version run on all Computers?
>>
>> Windows 98/ XP/ Vista/ Mac OS Will all of them be able to run the
>> Program?
>
> earlier). Of course, if you keep your code portable (by not using any
> platform specific stuff) you can always recompile your code on whatever
> other platforms you want to run it on.
Actually, VS2008 cannot be used to create programs for Win98/Me. The last
compiler that can be used for w98 is VS2005.
Dave Connet
Juha Nieminen
> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to download?
Depends on your definition of "free".
Do you have to pay money to download and use Visual Studio Express? No.
Can you create free applications with it? Yes.
Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.
Can you upgrade to Visual Studio for free? No.
Bo Persson
> Sanny wrote:
>> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to
>> download?
>
> Depends on your definition of "free".
>
> Do you have to pay money to download and use Visual Studio
> Express? No.
>
> Can you create free applications with it? Yes.
>
> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.
Yes.
>
> Can you upgrade to Visual Studio for free? No.
Do you get a Porsche for free? No.
Bo Persson
Bo Persson
> Hendrik Schober wrote:
>> Tommy wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> You might consider starting with C first. The two go together,
>>> then C++ will follow. But it all depends on your mentality.
>>
>> I consider this very bad advice.
>> If you follow it, you will first learn a lot of techniques
>> that you later need to "forget" in order to use better,
>> safer, and simpler idioms.
>>
>> If you want to learn C++ fast, use "Accelerated C++" by
>> Koenig and Moo. Note, however:
>> 1. If this has to steep a learning curve for you (it has
>> for most C++ beginners), then you will need to take
>> longer to learn C++. It's the language that makes the
>> task complex, not the book.
>> 2. The book will make you an entry-level novice to C++,
>> not a C++ programmer. However, there's no further
>> shortcut. (see #3)
>> 3. If you think you've found a book that makes you learn
>> C++ easier _and_ faster, most likely you've found the
>> wrong book. There are many bad C++ books out there.
>> Learning from them will make you a bad C++ programmer.
>>
>> Schobi
> company.
>
> But overall, I believe unless you remove all the idiosyncrasies that
> are inherently embedded in C++ related to C knowledge, like
> pointers, etc, then he will always be short changed coming back to
> the lots of C related issues. After all C++ is C!! What do you
> think all darn templates are written in, PASCAL?
Definitely not C!
C++ is definitely not C. That is what the "Accelerated C++" book
shows.
If you start by learning C, you end up knowing lots of stuff about
malloc, strcpy, arrays are like pointers (except when not), and
strange formatting strings for printf and company. Almost totally
useless when writing C++.
Why would you want to start with the "almost useless" part when you
learn a new language?
Bo Persson
Erik Wikström
> Sanny wrote:
>> Here it says I can download VC++. Is it completely free to download?
> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.
Yes you can, I looked it up when I used the C++ and C# Express versions
at my previous employer.
> Can you upgrade to Visual Studio for free? No.
What does that have to do with anything? If you download a trial-version
of any application can you upgrade to the full version for free? No.
--
Erik Wikström
Tommy
> Tommy wrote:
>>
>> But overall, I believe unless you remove all the idiosyncrasies that
>> are inherently embedded in C++ related to C knowledge, like
>> pointers, etc, then he will always be short changed coming back to
>> the lots of C related issues. After all C++ is C!! What do you
>> think all darn templates are written in, PASCAL?
>
> Definitely not C!
>
> C++ is definitely not C. That is what the "Accelerated C++" book
> shows.
Book means nothing unless you can show indisputable facts that it was
100% attributed to be the production of top notch C++ with high
productivity and can WORK on their own pace without the need to know
C. You will never be able to prove to me that a LONE WOLF C++ expert
will be possible to exist without C knowledge. He can follow the book
but will he be of much value in the real world. I don't think so.
> If you start by learning C, you end up knowing lots of stuff about
> malloc, strcpy, arrays are like pointers (except when not), and
> strange formatting strings for printf and company. Almost totally
> useless when writing C++.
>
> Why would you want to start with the "almost useless" part when you
> learn a new language?
Real programmers don't have to ask that question. :-) You should know
the old adage, There is no such thing as bad language, just bad
programmers. Conversely, there is no such thing as Good Language, just
Good Programmers.
Look, inevitably, even if you isolate yourself to only C++, the
reality is, most managers are not going to hire you because you will
lack insight, it is too expensive and you can find people who will
KNOW C and C++ for the same price or lower - never mind the fact that
he will be more knowledgeable.
In addition, most of the time, you will have a hard time dealing with
the outside world. What about when you see C code that you can use in
your C++ application, and you don't know how to implement it? Before
you can even BEGIN to translate it into C++, you have to know what it
does, the construct. Eventually, you will have to know C. What about
the C based WINAPI API which is all based on functional programming
protocol and having hunganian notation knowledge, so on and so on.
Finally, just look what the C++ standard says:
C++ is a general purpose programming language based on the C
programming language as described in ISO/IEC 9899:1990
Programming languages — C (1.2). In addition to the facilities
provided by C, C ++ provides additional data types, classes,
templates, exceptions, namespaces, inline functions, operator
overloading, function name overloading, references, free store
management operators, and additional library facilities.
In other words, it is naturally expected that C++ is an augmentation
to the C language. It should go without saying that learning C++, is
learning C basic ideas, and without a doubt, having a C background can
only help in learning and understanding C++
Of course, this is all subjective, you can believe what you want and
you will never be 100% right. But mine is based on experience, so I
will put a little more weight on my input here - even if you think I
am wrong. :-)
---
Juha Nieminen
>> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.
>
> Yes you can, I looked it up when I used the C++ and C# Express versions
> at my previous employer.
It's surprisingly hard to find some actual legal text from microsoft's
VS Express website confirming or denying this.
There is a paragraph in their EULA which says:
"Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and
non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit,
display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works
from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services
obtained from the Services."
The FAQ page for VS Express tells (in rather non-legalese, which in
this particular case is actually a bad thing because it gives no
reference to the actual details of the usage license) that you *can* use
it for commercial purposes.
Besides the EULA and the FAQ being contradictory, I can't find any
answer to the question of whether you can use it in a company for
commercial purposes, or whether the commercial usage is limited to
individuals only.
Tommy
Based on what you posted above, it appears it only references
"services" which I gather includes the Start Page:
- Getting Started
- Visual Studio Headlines
- Developer News
Legally, this would be copyright protected (in its outline and form)
so MS is protecting itself from competitors cloning these "Services".
From a practical standpoint, I would find it difficult for MS to put
commercialization limits with the "Free" version, however, legally, it
is within their rights.
In fact, I recall the days you had to include the copyright of 3rd
party resources/tools you use to built your EXE images and it wasn't
odd to see a requirement to display the copyright at startup. Old
school applications still have some of this behavior.
In many case, that changed to vendors burning in a copyright into the
image. Don't be surprise to see the Microsoft copyright in exe image.
Let me check quickly a VC compiled helloworld.cpp console EXE...
I don't see it offhand in the dump of the image but I seem to recall
it was in there for VC 4.0..
Let me compile a HelloWorld.pas pascal program using Delphi...
This is whats in the EXE
Portions Copyright (c) 1983,97 Borland.
This is not uncommon in commercial tools.
The point is, traditionally compiler vendors always had the legal
right to claim a copyright or partial copyright over your production
and legally, to cross all the tees and dots the eyes, you had to add
copyright and IP information somewhere in your product. This is why
Microsoft has all this IP statements in their about boxes for their
products like IE. It wasn't because they wanted to be nice. They
legally had too and MS is too easy a target to test not given 3rd
party licenses copyright credit. I guess the analogy would be a
writing a book and adding copyrights in the inside copy and also
making sure you have all your foot notes.
But I think we can all agree it is rare for tools vendors to take this
to the extreme. Ethically, IMO, you should give credit and if the
vendor demands this, you really have no choice but to include their
copyright.
The tradition today is to add it to the About Box and/or in splash
screen or a command line tool, to show your product name and
copyright, just like the CL.EXE does. All my command line tools shows
our copyright.
==
Anthony Wieser
> compiler that can be used for w98 is VS2005.
>
> Dave Connet
Is that really true, or is it just the case that you can't if you use
CRT/MFC?
Anthony Wieser
Wieser Software Ltd
Cezary H. Noweta
>> Actually, VS2008 cannot be used to create programs for Win98/Me.
>> The last compiler that can be used for w98 is VS2005.
> Is that really true, or is it just the case that you can't if you use
> CRT/MFC?
VC++: the compiler is only a compiler. It can generate code for Win16.
The point is use of the libraries. Simple ,,Hello, world!'' console app
does not work due to CRT lib. On Win16 _mtinit locks in an early phase
of initialization. (By Win16 I mean
Win98/ME, i.e. 16bit + 32bit extender.)
But if you mean VS2008 (not VC++ 2008) then you can still use MASM +
LINK to generate Win16 apps. ;)
-- best regards
Cezary Noweta
Cezary H. Noweta
> On Win16 _mtinit locks in an early phase of initialization.
It uses GetModuleHandleW which is unsupported on ANSI Win. Probably in
CRT and STDLIB, there are used also other widechar versions of kernel foos.
Erik Wikström
> Erik Wikström wrote:
>>> Can you create commercial applications with it? AFAIR, no.
>>
>> Yes you can, I looked it up when I used the C++ and C# Express versions
>> at my previous employer.
>
> It's surprisingly hard to find some actual legal text from microsoft's
> VS Express website confirming or denying this.
>
> There is a paragraph in their EULA which says:
>
> "Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and
> non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit,
> display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works
> from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services
> obtained from the Services."
This is the license for the VC++ 2008 Express software, it only applies
to that software, not any software created with it.
> The FAQ page for VS Express tells (in rather non-legalese, which in
> this particular case is actually a bad thing because it gives no
> reference to the actual details of the usage license) that you *can* use
> it for commercial purposes.
>
> Besides the EULA and the FAQ being contradictory, I can't find any
> answer to the question of whether you can use it in a company for
> commercial purposes, or whether the commercial usage is limited to
> individuals only.
The EULA does not place any restrictions (at least none that I could
find on a quick review) on the content created with the software so it
will be governed by the same laws as other things you create.
--
Erik Wikström
Hendrik Schober
> Hogwash, it all depends on the person and the type of job, duties or
> company.
Well, the guy was a beginner, the job was described as a C++
programmer, and from the latter I deduce that C++ code is to
be written or maintained.
> But overall, I believe unless you remove all the idiosyncrasies that
> are inherently embedded in C++ related to C knowledge, like pointers,
> etc, then he will always be short changed coming back to the lots of C
> related issues. [...]
What a nice straw man you knocked down there! My argument,
however, still stands.
> Also consider, when reading documentations, web sites, code and
> examples out there, requires you to at least a background in C or you
> will be a lost puppy.
No.
> [...]
> He might as well go to C# or some other higher level wrapping language
> if he doesn't want to deal with many of the issues that C++ will bring
> you related to C.
You keep knowcking at those straw thingies.
> Finally, the reality is this:
>
> I have never and would never hire a C++ programmer who
> doesn't understand C.
Bad for you. Your programmers probably also use 'malloc()',
'str*()', and the like. One of my fellow workers switched
jobs a while ago. He started the new job on Monday, had a
look at their code, tried to tell them what's wrong (see
the sentence before this) for a few days, and called his
former boss on Friday. On next Monday he was back here,
nicely reinstalled as a unit head. BTDTGTLS.
> Its a waste of money. Consider that the coming slow economy, the idea
> of having well rounded programmer with system engineering experience
> is more attractive than having a long wolf expert in just one language
> who inevitably someone else is going to have to help him, meaning a
> person who can work on his own, tackle any language or at least not be
> lost of using it and can move forward to even learn the basics to
> utilize it for a purpose, i.e, XML - yeah, its funny, thats a LANGUAGE
> TOOL according to many.
You're incredibly good at knocking down those straw men.
> Don't read this wrong, a person can start with C++ but it will be
> almost impossible to be an expert in it without having more than just
> basic knowledge of C. [...]
There does down another one!
> [...]
I'm impressed.
Now. Would you care to take a swing at what I've written?
No? Oh well...
Schobi
Tommy
The fella was mixing around the idea of dealing with Java, C++, well,
maybe he should take 1 step back, to learn the backbone of the two and
other similar C based languages, in order to take a giant leap
forward. That was my suggestion, and to say that is a BAD idea, for
one to suggest that C is not required, not necessary to be understood
for C++ expertise.... Well, how do you respond to that?
Maybe one shouldn't and just let it go. I think I will do that. Maybe
you should too. :-)
Have a good Happy Turkey day (if that is something you honor).
--
Juha Nieminen
>> "Unless otherwise specified, the Services are for your personal and
>> non-commercial use. You may not modify, copy, distribute, transmit,
>> display, perform, reproduce, publish, license, create derivative works
>> from, transfer, or sell any information, software, products or services
>> obtained from the Services."
>
> This is the license for the VC++ 2008 Express software, it only applies
> to that software, not any software created with it.
But if you use the software to make commercial software, isn't that
commercial use of the software?
Bo Persson
No. Please check the FAQ at
http://www.microsoft.com/express/support/faq/
Especially question 7
a.. 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using
Visual Studio Express Editions.
Bo Persson
Juha Nieminen
> No. Please check the FAQ at
> http://www.microsoft.com/express/support/faq/
>
> Especially question 7
>
> a.. 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
> Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using
> Visual Studio Express Editions.
I know. It's just that the wording is a bit ambiguous. "Can I use".
Does it mean "can I use it, as an individual, to create commercial
software", or does it also include "can my 100-employee company use it
for commercial purposes" as well?
I would really like to find the legal usage license which explicitly
states, in completely unambiguous words, how this goes, rather than
relying on a short informal answer in a FAQ. I just can't find it.
Bo Persson
I think the "no licensing restrictions" is pretty clear. :-)
Otherwise you might consider spending ?200 on a Standard Edition
Upgrade instead, as a cheap insurance. Cheaper than having your lawyer
read the EULA!
Bo Persson
Chris M. Thomasson
news:6p0s8kF...@mid.individual.net...
Well, AFAICT, the answer to question 7:
Q: 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
A: Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built using
Visual Studio Express Editions.
directly addresses a __single__ person; not a plurality of persons. Perhaps
the following question might get a different answer:
7. Can I, and all of my companies employees, use the Express Editions to
explicitly create closed-source proprietary commercial software which may,
or may not, involve my companies patented algorihtms?
:^/
David Connet
@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl:
> "Ron Francis" wrote:
>>> (real programmers edit .rc files by hand>
>> Nathan Mates
>>
>> I think you could have chosen a better word than 'real' there so
>> as not to make those of us that use an editor feel less real.
>
> True uber programmers don't need even a compiler. They write their
> programs directly in object codes in command-line hex editor.
Real programmers use butterflys. http://xkcd.com/378/ (sorry, couldn't
resist)
Dave
Vladimir Grigoriev
"Alex Blekhman" <tkfx....@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:%23suTl8T...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
> True uber programmers don't need even a compiler. They write their
> programs directly in object codes in command-line hex editor.
>
Vladimir Grigoriev
Alex Blekhman
>> True uber programmers don't need even a compiler. They write
>> their programs directly in object codes in command-line hex
>> editor.
>>
> by using old DOS DEBUG utility? :)
No! With butterflies, of course. :)
Bo Persson
So you have to download and register a copy each. :-)
>
> 7. Can I, and all of my companies employees, use the Express
> Editions to explicitly create closed-source proprietary commercial
> software which may, or may not, involve my companies patented
> algorihtms?
A: Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built
using Visual Studio Express Editions.
Bo Persson
Hendrik Schober
> Well, thats actually what you done - introduce the straw man.
Sigh. One try.
You stated that, in order to properly learn C++, one should
start with C. I argued against this, giving specific reasons
why I not only think it's not necessary, but that it actually
does harm. You, OTOH, went off to proof that C knowledge helps
C++ programmers do their jobs -- which I never argued against.
If you disagree with my statement, you should first read and
understand it, understand the reasons I gave, and if you then
disagree with them, state why you think they're wrong.
> [...]
Schobi
Hendrik Schober
> [...]
> Otherwise you might consider spending ?200 on a Standard Edition
> Upgrade instead, as a cheap insurance. Cheaper than having your lawyer
> read the EULA!
But look closely!
IIRC, VS 2003 Std came with a non-optimizing compiler.
> Bo Persson
Schobi
Rolf Magnus
> Juha Nieminen wrote:
Well, IMHO that contradicts the license, and in such a case, I'd rather go
with the license than the FAQ, because the license is a legal text and the
FAQ isn't.
Bo Persson
> Bo Persson wrote:
>
>> Juha Nieminen wrote:
In what way does it contradict the license? Nowhere does it say "You
may not sell your software". It does say "You may not distribute our
software separately, only as a part of your own". That is totally
different!
When they try to explain the legalese in the FAQ, the explanation is:
"Can I use Express Editions for commercial use? Yes, there are no
licensing restrictions for applications built using Visual Studio
Express Editions."
What's wrong with "Yes" and "no restrictions"? :-)
Bo Persson
Rolf Magnus
>>> a.. 7. Can I use Express Editions for commercial use?
>>> Yes, there are no licensing restrictions for applications built
>>> using Visual Studio Express Editions.
>>
>> Well, IMHO that contradicts the license, and in such a case, I'd
>> rather go with the license than the FAQ, because the license is a
>> legal text and the FAQ isn't.
>
> In what way does it contradict the license? Nowhere does it say "You
> may not sell your software".
Ok, earlier in this thread, someone posted part of a license text that said
exactly that. But the link you posted doesn't contain that text.