Why .NET/C# will last at most 5 years
luke
I must admit, they're ok ideas...but, here's the important thing: the
fact that Microsoft holds rein on them dooms them from the start to at
most a few years lifetime.
Ok, you're getting antsy now, and running off on the swear words, but
wait, let me explain.
#1 Is microsoft in financial trouble?
From a financial standpoint at least, this "abusive monopolist" is in
good shape. With so much cash at hand, i doubt it'll suddenly go into
chapter 11 bankruptcy. HOWEVER, a technology company with such a high
valuation as microsoft is expected to grow at a rate that supports
that valuation. The PC industry in the developed countries at least,
have matured at an alarming rate, and the slowdown in growth (as well
as price competition) is crippling the Compaqs and HPs of the PC
world. This slowdown in growth is ALARMING to microsoft, which has
DESPERATELY tried to expand beyond this stagnating industry.
more: http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/java.htm#caging
# 2 Has microsoft been successful moving beyond the desktop?
(a) It has made good inroads in the (web) server market, but even
there is being held back by very popular open source technologies like
Apache and Linux (which are free and robust solutions that will surely
expand as time passes). Exterprise servers are mostly a UNIX bastion
(with more than a 50% share),
(b) It has been trying for years but failing to dominate on the
handheld PDA market, where PALM-OS and other devices from Sony,
Handspring, and Palm continue to dominate the market (and Palm is
starting to pay attention to the corporate market as well, so compaq
beware --0oh, oops, it got eaten by HP).
Palm OS-based applications accounted for more than 97 percent of all
handheld software titles sold in 2001, with PalmSource, Inc., a
subsidiary of Palm, Inc. (NASDAQ: PALM) as the number one maker of
handheld applications.
http://www.allnetdevices.com/wireless/news/2002/04/11/palm_os.html
(c) It has completely failed in the smart card arena, where java-based
smart cards have dominated (and in fact, such java cards as Blue from
AMEX and some Visas have been circulating in the USA for awhile)
http://java.sun.com/features/2001/10/javacardbday.html
(d) It has completely failed in the very important wireless phone
market, where java-based (J2ME) phones are becoming the de facto
standard for app development, and is supported by ALL the major
players including Nokia, Motorola, Sony-Errikson, Samsung, etc.
- ARC Group predicts that all Net-connected wireless phones will be
Java-enabled within five years. Specifically, more than 1.1 billion
phones will be capable of running Java applications by 2006, the study
predicts.
- 18 million Java phones have been sold worldwide since last year, in
the USA, nextel has sold 1.3 million.
(e) It has failed miserably in the settop market, where java is also
gaining a strong foothold.
"Microsoft has long sold software for interactive set-top boxes.
Despite sinking $10 billion into big cable companies such as AT&T
Broadband in hopes of getting a leg up in that business, Microsoft
remains a marginal player, says Ken Zita, a telecom consultant in New
York. "
(f) It is failing in the gaming comnsole industry with its Xbox, where
it faces an overwhelming opponent in Sony's playstation. It also made
a very big enemy by going into this field.
IN the USA:
"Reports of disappointing sales levels for Microsoft's Xbox in Europe
and Japan have been compounded by an apparent easing off of demand in
the US."
also: "Goldman Sachs claim(ed) last week that US retailers were
clearly
preferring Playstation 2 to Xbox."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24789.html
In Europe and Japan:
After an initial launch, sales for Xbox very weak in japan and europe,
especially when compared to playstation 2 release awhile back.
http://www.heise.de/english/newsticker/foren/go.shtml?read=1&msg_id=1567431&forum_id=27408
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/24592.html
(g) Its Passport system of authentication, which enjoyed an
overwhelming advantage just a year ago (simply because it was the
only competitor out there), has been strongly opposed by privacy
groups and is in grave danger of being marginalized by the LIbert
organization, which contains some very heavy hitters:
http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/java.htm#liberty_timeline
(h) It's hold on web services is slipping. Because it was first with
the hype, .NET enjoyed an overwhelming advantage earlier last year in
mindshare. However, as the J2EE app vendors have incorporated web
services functionality earlier this year, mindshare has been moving
slowly towards J2EE (and especially because of concerns about security
and maturity).
- According to Giga, roughly 3/4 of respondents in survey said they
would be using J2EE for web services, with IBM web sphere users alone
accounting for 33%, and .NET at 22%
- According to the Hurwitz Group, 35 percent of developers surveyed
plan to deploy Web services on Java vs. 15 percent for .Net, and 31
percent plan to use both.
#3 Is Microsoft in trouble legally and will this hurt the spread of
.NET?
This is a BIG thorn on its side, and it should be, because they were
branded as abusive monopolists who broke the law.
Its opponents in court have been using the verdict against it to state
that .NET is a dangerous tool that could allow microsoft to extend its
abusive monopoly to servers, and I would think a judgement againt
microsoft might mean any full-blown .NET in desktop windows will be a
no-no.
Microsoft itself has said that it is betting its future on .NET, and
mainly because they have NOWHERE ELSE TO GO!
I believe that .NET and C#, will be either
(a) discontinued or superceded after a specified lifetime, after all
the hype has gone down and microsoft decides to do another turnaround
to "bet its life" on something else (start revving the hype machine!);
Here's an intersting comment:
"the classic Microsoft consumer sales profile. The company is
generally extremely good at hyping a product at the start, and getting
retailers fired-up and stuffed with stock, but tends not to be able to
sustain the momentum achieved over the first couple of weeks. When it
comes to Windows, of course, this is easily masked by 'sales' obtained
via the OEM franchise, which is most of them." Unfortunately, beyond
windows, the company is at the mercy of actual market forces...wow!
(b) .NET and C# will be marginalized to just microsoft shops because
it is for all practical purposes, a windows only solution, AND most
non-windows developers will tend to shrink away from them. Sales
levels of C# books tend to confirm this, because sales of java, Perl,
and other programming languages have remained the same (java held 6 of
the top 10 spots in amazon's programming languages section), so i'm
thinking it's been cannibalizing mostly books that would have been for
VB, or ASP, etc.
(c) The courts will strip any ability for these technologies (and esp
.NET) to gain any foothold beyond the windows server.
hmmm...time to sleep...more later...g'night folks.
Joseph Walters
news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
> C# and .NET and so on are in trouble because Microsoft is in trouble.
A search on monster.com would seem to confirm this. 69 postings for C# and
3791 postings for Java.
dimd00d
been around?!
Dim
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:yZ6u8.84732$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
PL
-glenn-
6-year-old technology to one that is 2-months old? What's the point?
-glenn-
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:yZ6u8.84732$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
PL
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message news:yZ6u8.84732$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
Michael (michka) Kaplan
crossposted threads like this one were basically stupid?
Nothing useful ever comes out of it; all that happens is a bunch of wasted
bandwidth.
--
MichKa
Michael Kaplan
Trigeminal Software, Inc. -- http://www.trigeminal.com/
International VB? -- http://www.i18nWithVB.com/
C++? MSLU -- http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/01/10/
"PL" <pb...@yahoo.se> wrote in message news:eBlvCs24BHA.368@tkmsftngp05...
asj
April 10,2002 -57 C# jobs!
41 .NET jobs when it wasn't even supposedly out 1 year ago?
great percentage rise, btw. i guess having the thing out results in an
increase of around 16 jobs per period <g>
Mark Miller
aren't convincing me.
You're masking the fact that Sun is the one in financial trouble. Java is
not public domain, you know.
--
---Mark
mmil...@attbi.com
"It's getting late. I've got better things to do than to have religious
discussions with you." -- Dillinger, "Tron"
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
PL
You seem to forget that C# and the CLI has been submitted
to ECMA, that pretty much guarantees it will never go away.
I don't see Java being standardized, as I can recall Sun even
removed their initial submission ( ANSI or ECMA don't remember )
because they wanted to keep the control.
So, if you want to use a language controlled by one company
then use Java, when Sun goes bankrupt then it's pretty much bye
bye Java.
And I still standby the statement that you are a troll, I guess the bate
was just too nice and shiny for me to avoid ;)
Patrik.
Luis Neves
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/nq/2002/nq020414.gif
luis
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
Suresh __NoJunkMail kumar
of .NET, you just cannot incoporate current sales/ marketestimates, you need
show how the market figures are going to change in the next 2 years.
Moreover, nobody can predict what will happen in the next 5 years, not even
for the next 6 months. If you really want to know why, u need to look into
chaos theory of market forces. One of the interesting results of chaos
theory is that for every flap of a butterfly in tropics, one tordaneo in the
US goes unpredicted. [I dunno exactly who said this or how it is supposed to
be said.]
As a matter of fact,You cannot predict the weather for more than 2 weeks.
Although u do give a reason why Microsoft would fail, you are forgetting
how the market has usually operated.
There used to be a time where Apple use to own the PC industry(not the IBM
kind)
Borland, the compiler industry, IBM,the server market and the time when
Silicon Graphics/Cray used to make profit. There used to be a time when
Nitendo and Sega dominated the game console market.
From my understanding of the computer market, most companies remain in power
for like 10 years.
Although Linux may take over the server market, it will only stands second
to the Unix market just because Unix is much more mature than Linux. Unix
market account only a small fraction of the world of computing. The PC
market is much larger than the Unix market anyways.
There is no new web market anymore. so, I dunno about the web server
business. But 3 years ago, would you have believed me if i told you that
many web companies will fail?
Today, PlayStation is a lead player in the game industry. They over took
Nitendo and drove Sega out of business. The Xbox holds huge potential. It
will definitely take more time for people to develop new games for the
console and take more time for people to start buying it. I tend to think
that MS is betting on making WinCE popular thru their Xbox consoles than
thru the PDA industry.
As far as the Wireless market, i dunno much. But most of Wireless product
markets have given up their business. Errikson used to be a great player. I
dunno how well motorola is doing.
One thing for sure, as long as Bill is in charge, MS won't lose its shirt
and that's a safe bet.
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
Mark Miller
--
---Mark
mmil...@attbi.com
"It's getting late. I've got better things to do than to have religious
discussions with you." -- Dillinger, "Tron"
"Luis Neves" <casa...@lusoweb.pt> wrote in message
news:a9bct0$1qihs$1...@ID-139675.news.dfncis.de...
Tim Tyler
: This seems appropriate:
: http://images.ucomics.com/comics/nq/2002/nq020414.gif
See also this one: http://w3.hig.no/tet99/Troll-Watching.jpg
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1.org
Frans Bouma
thank you
(filter added)
FB
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
Frans Bouma
"Luis Neves" <casa...@lusoweb.pt> wrote in message news:a9bct0$1qihs$1...@ID-139675.news.dfncis.de...
> http://images.ucomics.com/comics/nq/2002/nq020414.gif
LOL :)
after all, this trollthread delivered something NICE :D
FB
Martin Robins
You are a slightly more evolved troll, you did at least try to justify the
claims that you are making whereas your peers would have simply made the
claims wildly.
Is Microsoft Broke: No. Growth may not be as huge as it used to be, but with
the new licensing schemes that have been introduced, Microsoft has been able
to generate additional revenue from the same customers for the same products
over an x year period.
Has Microsoft broken into the server market: A Little. There may not be as
much penetration as Microsoft would like but the server portion of the
business is gradually building up. The release of such products as .NET are
designed to help boost this area of sales by providing better tools for the
job.
Has Microsoft taken the palm-top market: No. Palm is definitely the leader
here, but better interoperability between Windows desktop and Windows CE
will eventually prove to be the difference, with developers being able to
develop applications for both using the same tools. Additionally, with the
introduction of Xbox, more users will be getting used to the Windows
environment even earlier. (Imagine being able to synchronise your PDA with
your Xbox, and being told in the middle of a Halo battle that you are due
into a meeting with your boss!)
Smart Cards and Mobile Telephones. Microsoft's ventures into these areas
have been poor, though it would be fair to say that they have been very
inventive with ideas. Certainly the first mention of "intelligent" mobile
telephones I am aware of was an announcement by Microsoft - I cannot
remember the project name now it was too long ago. The closest I saw them
get was the Nokia communicator, but that was really a phone and computer in
the same package rather than a computerised phone. As for the set-top boxes,
I cannot say what the market place for them is like in the US, but here in
the UK, the majority of set-top users use satellite and not cable, thus
reducing the need for additional intelligence as there is no broadband
connection to support.
Xbox: It is still far too early to tell how this one will pan out. Having
seen the Xbox, I have to say it looks very impressive with superb graphics
capabilities. The Windows/CE based operating system makes possibilities for
further expansion and flexibility far greater (see above with PDA
synchronisation.) This is an area that should be judged in about 18 months,
once more games are available and the initial hype has cooled enough for the
pricing to come back down to around the same as PS2.
Passport and Web Services: Passport was (and still is) a very good idea.
What is wrong with the idea is the single source implementation; nobody
wants to store all of their information with a single supplier, in fact most
would like to store it themselves. Microsoft recently announced that they
were changing the rules for this type of technology, Passport (or at least a
derivative) is to be packaged and sold to allow companies to use it
themselves. .NET of course contains all of the required technologies to
allow other similar services to be easily developed (as does most other
languages before you start seething, but those languages do not have the
ready made framework).
Is Microsoft in Legal Trouble: Probably. The "competition" tactics of most
companies who are being out-technologied by Microsoft has always been to go
to the courts. I have no doubt that it will happen again and again and
again...
Would .NET be so dangerous if it had been developed by Me? At the end of the
day, it is only a series of libraries and tools that are built on top of the
operating system. If you look around you will find lots of products that
contain similar functionality, but not all in one place. Nobody ever sued
Microsoft for creating the MFC, or Borland for OWL. Why is .NET that
different other than the massive increase in available libraries.
The next logical step is to build the entire operating system in the same
way, in the same way as it was to base so much of windows on browser
technology. There are massive benefits to be had in this.
And finally
>> I believe that .NET and C#, will be either
>> (a) discontinued or superseded after a specified lifetime, after all
>> the hype has gone down and Microsoft decides to do another turnaround
>> to "bet its life" on something else (start revving the hype machine!);
All companies have to provide what the consumer asks for, otherwise they
cannot survive. If SAP decide that there is no longer a need to provide
Payroll software within their package, the consumer will go elsewhere. It is
therefore sound business sense to reverse previous decisions if they are not
panning out as desired. Passport will continue to survive, but other similar
services will become available from other vendors using the same technology.
>> Here's an interesting comment:
>> "the classic Microsoft consumer sales profile. The company is
>> generally extremely good at hyping a product at the start, and getting
>> retailers fired-up and stuffed with stock, but tends not to be able to
>> sustain the momentum achieved over the first couple of weeks. When it
>> comes to Windows, of course, this is easily masked by 'sales' obtained
>> via the OEM franchise, which is most of them." Unfortunately, beyond
>> windows, the company is at the mercy of actual market forces...wow!
Whilst the OS is bundled for B2C sales, most corporate customers have the
opportunity to select the OS that they want on any machine, and most
corporates still select a Windows derivative for the desktop. The power of
market forces at its best.
>> (b) .NET and C# will be marginalized to just microsoft shops because
>> it is for all practical purposes, a windows only solution, AND most
>> non-windows developers will tend to shrink away from them. Sales
>> levels of C# books tend to confirm this, because sales of java, Perl,
>> and other programming languages have remained the same (java held 6 of
>> the top 10 spots in amazon's programming languages section), so i'm
>> thinking it's been cannibalizing mostly books that would have been for
>> VB, or ASP, etc.
A large number of the companies that are currently using VS6 are already
looking to move to .NET for any new projects that come along. Some are
looking to port existing projects from VS6 to .NET, most will probably
continue to maintain existing VS6 systems within VS6. You only have to look
at the newsgroups to see how widely the new system is being adopted
(although setting up a filter to discard trolling is getting more
difficult). .NET was released on February 13th, making it a 2 month old
product. To compare this with a product that has been established for years
is unfair. As with the Xbox, let us see what happens in 18 months time when
more people are available with sufficient .NET experience.
>> (c) The courts will strip any ability for these technologies (and esp
>> .NET) to gain any foothold beyond the windows server.
Various attempts have been made through the courts to stifle Microsoft
attempts to utilise technology. Very few have been successful. Surely the
better way to stifle Microsoft will be to produce something better. Sun beat
Microsoft over Java, but then they reached an agreement and J++ is alive
again! There is a lesson in there.
The .NET effect of this is that if you do not like it or believe in it, do
not use it. I do not like the MFC or Java. I do not use them. I do not like
trains. I do not use them. I did not believe in "on-digital" (a UK based
digital TV service). I did not use it.
But I did not spend my time shoving my likes and dislikes down other peoples
throats.
--
Martin Robins.
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"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Martin Robins
--
Martin Robins.
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"Martin Robins" <martin...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
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Craig Williams
"Frans Bouma" <per...@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
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Craig Williams
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Craig Williams
"Mark Miller" <mmil...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:2C9u8.17679$G72.13036@sccrnsc01...
asj
of yelling at the post.
asj
>
> <points on chaos theory>
>
good point, except it IS possible to predict BROAD trends, as opposed to
specific events. that's why we have so many damn analysts.
> Although u do give a reason why Microsoft would fail, you are forgetting
> how the market has usually operated.
>
> There used to be a time where Apple use to own the PC industry(not the >IBM
That's exactly the point! I read a book that was published in 1984 about
Apple, and the biggest threat to apple that the book dwelled upon was
IBM...microsoft got one sentence mentioned about how it was a suplier of
OS for IBM...the point is that Microsoft may for all we know be
marginalized very quickly (or at least stripped of its dominant monopoly
position) by some "unexpected" trend that is going unnoticed right
now...my bet is that trend is the increasing power and ubiquity of
wirelss devices (of which microsoft has no hold at all). because .NET
and c# are tied to microsoft, they are also going to be quickly
marginalized.
> market account only a small fraction of the world of computing. The PC
> market is much larger than the Unix market anyways.
Not in the server business (and i don;'t mean just web server.
>
> As far as the Wireless market, i dunno much. But most of Wireless product
> markets have given up their business. Errikson used to be a great player. I
> dunno how well motorola is doing.
what???!!!! like all the other industries (inc PCs), wireless has been
hit by the recession....but you don't see people giving up their cell
phones do you?
>
> One thing for sure, as long as Bill is in charge, MS won't lose its shirt
> and that's a safe bet.
>
after all your chaos threories you say this <g>...btw, bill isn't in
charge, ballmer is...
Etienne Charland
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
asj
thing. java is backed by a LOT of vendors, and most importantly, byt
open source groups like Apache, which actually hold the refernce
implemnetations for J2EE components like servlets/jsp containers.
btw, give me one fact that shows that sun is ACTUALLY in big financial
trouble (I mean, one that could drive it to bankruptcy)? as far as i can
tell, about 99% of the US is in some kind of trouble (witness compaq,
hp, enron!, etc), but once the economy upswings, the companies will
recover quickly. Sun still holds the clear lead in UNIX servers, which
in turn has more than 50% of the enterprise server market even in these
dark times.
Joseph Walters
news:#UeGDg24BHA.2072@tkmsftngp02...
> Have you considered how long has Java been around and how long C#/.Net has
> been around?!
Have you considered the fact that Java runs on more than 1 platform?
Nick
board http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ecma-334.htm. Also how long as MS held
hold over VB? and Sun over Java. Your argument doesn't seem to hold up
very well.
Nick
Nick
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ZRgu8.88992$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
Nick
"Mark Miller" <mmil...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:2C9u8.17679$G72.13036@sccrnsc01...
-glenn-
-glenn-
"asj" <ka...@XXX.com> wrote in message news:3CB912...@XXX.com...
Cameron Purdy
also
Would that one platform have been called C++ ;-)
(Sun's original Java VM implementation (version 1.0.2) was an interpreter,
which made it very easy to port (no native code gen at runtime). Other than
AWT, threading, IO and network stuff, there was no OS-specific
implementation.)
Peace,
--
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
http://www.tangosol.com/
.NET to J2EE porting service available
"Nick" <nber...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ujyhYk84BHA.1992@tkmsftngp05...
>
ET
and controlled solely by one company.
--ET--
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ZRgu8.88992$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
Tim Tyler
: Have you considered when Java first came out it only ran on 1 platform also
Java ran on one platform in May 1995 (Solaris). In July WNT was
supported. In August W95 was supported. This was all *before*
the first *pre-beta* release of Java 1.0.
Java chronology: http://www.ibiblio.org/javafaq/slides/hope/03.html
dimd00d
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ZRgu8.88992$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
Jim Sculley
> As does .NET and C# plus unlike Java, they aren't proprietary products owned
> and controlled solely by one company.
.NET isn't proprietary? Oh man, this one gets added to the list of
'Ermine Todd' quotes.
Jim S.
Martin Robins
the ECMA standard, especially relating to Windows!
The CLR is a standard.
It is a bit like ANSI C/C++ is a standard. Microsoft Visual C++ and the MFC
are proprietary.
--
Martin Robins.
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"Jim Sculley" <nic...@abraxis.com> wrote in message
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John Timney (Microsoft MVP)
machine and know everything there is to know about everything. How
reassuring to know at this early stage how best to plan my skills for the
next decade.
Java, C#, VB.NET - who really cares? Any experienced architect worth their
salt will pick the most appropriate technologies for the task at hand, and
this goes across the board from software, to hardware, to long/short term
support/ and development skills. Even the aspirations of the development
teams should be considered.
Never mind, I'm sure whatever happens I'll be OK, because I have a very
balanced view of technology and take time to think about the future rather
than reading every bit of journalistic nonsense thats published.
Utter garbage ..................
--
Regards
John Timney (Microsoft ASP.NET MVP)
----------------------------------------------
<shameless_author_plug>
Professional Windows Forms
ISBN: 1861005547
Professional JSP
ISBN: 1861003625
Beginning JSP Web Development
ISBN: 1861002092
</shameless_author_plug>
----------------------------------------------
Justin
soon be moot.
Justin
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ZRgu8.88992$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
Jim Sculley
>
>
> The .NET Framework *IS* proprietary. It includes many extras over and above
> the ECMA standard, especially relating to Windows!
Indeed. However, 'Ermine Todd' seems to think otherwise.
>
> The CLR is a standard.
>
You are sorely mistaken. Unfortunately, your confusion is all too common.
> It is a bit like ANSI C/C++ is a standard. Microsoft Visual C++ and the MFC
> are proprietary.
And (from what I've heard) non-compliant with said standard to boot.
Jim S.
Jim Sculley
> Thanks to people working on things such as the mono project your point will
> soon be moot.
Can you point me to the details on the ECMA C# licensing that mono will
have to abide by?
Jim S.
Justin
Since the FAQ for mono seems to indicate that MS is aware of mono and not
out to put the kibosh on it (http://www.go-mono.com/faq.html#msft) I would
assume they were able to get some of the information from
http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ecma-335.htm and
http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/STAND/ecma-334.htm however I have not read either
so it may or may not be in there. The mono FAQ also states that MS is
looking to make implementations based on ECMA specs less hazy, can't say for
sure if that means licensing considerations or not.
Justin
Nick
work already done. They claim to be an open source project, but Microsoft
has already released the source code to .Net and the compilers. My question
is:
So why Mono?
Nick
"Justin" <jbig...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:D842226576C1B2F9.FAC74350...@lp.airnews.net...
Mark Miller
got some figures.
I tried looking for the names of Microsoft-specific technologies, just to
get an idea of how Microsoft-related jobs compare to Java jobs.
As it turned out, the high number of Java jobs quoted earlier came as a
result of looking up "All" jobs in "All" locations, which is a catch-all
search. When I did this search, I found several that were "Sales Manager,"
and "Technical Trainer" which were looking for people with a background in
Java, but not programming in it.
I did some analysis on the Microsoft-related numbers, so they will not
necessarily be the same as if you were to just look them up raw. I focused
on tools and languages. I did this to try to get a rough idea of actual
jobs available. For example, I looked up "ASP". This includes "ASP.Net".
ASP.Net is a secondary technology, when compared with ASP, since ASP 6 had
its own scripting language and API, whereas you can use any .Net language
with ASP.Net. So the language should be considered the primary indicator
when it comes to ASP.Net.
Some overlap is inevitable when doing this sort of survey. For example,
there will be plenty of instances where "ASP" appears in the same position
description with "VB" or "Visual C++". So these figures should be
considered overestimates, not exact.
I included terms that are generally listed distinctly. For example, "Visual
C++" and "MFC" are generally not listed together in the same ad. They're
two different names that apply to the same tool. People generally use one
or the other. Same goes for "Visual Basic" and "VB".
If a term is not included in a listing below, it means it came up with no
matches.
The Java numbers are, of course, exact, since there's really only one search
term to look up, "Java".
I also noted where ".Net" occurred in the skills area. These are generally
indented to show they are a subset of another term.
If you look at "All" jobs, you get
-------------------------------------
Languages:
"Java" - 3751
---------------
"Visual C++" - 140
- "Visual C++.Net" - 1
"C++.Net" - 9 (not including "Visual C++.Net")
"MFC" - 356
"Visual Basic" - 1803
- "Visual Basic.Net" - 3
"VB" - 1209
- "VB.Net" - 48
"C#" - 67
("ASP" was not included, due to it finding several pages with URL's,
containing ".asp")
Estimated Total: 3584
of these, 128 are .Net-related
Tools:
"Visual InterDev" - 144
"Visual Studio" - 197
- "Visual Studio.Net" - 27
Total: 341
The following are breakdowns in technological categories, which should weed
out most of the non-techie positions.
"Computers, Software"
--------------------------
Languages:
"Java" - 1074
------------------
"Visual C++" - 128
"MFC" - 108
"Visual Basic" - 457
"VB" - 361
- "VB.Net" - 26
"ASP" - 406
C# - 31
"C++.Net" - 1
Estimated Total: 1492
of these, 58 are .Net-related
Tools:
"Visual InterDev" - 42
"Visual Studio" - 66
- "Visual Studio.Net" - 10
Total: 108
"Computers, Hardware"
---------------------------
Languages:
"Java" - 26
----------------
"Visual C++" - 1
"MFC" - 2
"Visual Basic" - 6
"VB" - 11
"ASP" - 12
Estimated Total: 32
of these, 0 were .Net-related
Tools:
"Visual InterDev" - 1
"Visual Studio" - 1
Total: 2
Internet/E-Commerce
------------------------
"Java" - 179
------------------
"Visual C++" - 2
"MFC" - 2
"Visual Basic" - 59
- "Visual Basic.Net" - 1
"VB" - 55
"VB.Net" - 4
"ASP" - 164
C# - 3
Estimated Total: 285
of these, 8 are .Net-related
Tools:
"Visual InterDev" - 16
"Visual Studio" - 7
- "Visual Studio.Net" - 2
Total: 23
"Information Technology"
-----------------------------
"Java" - 1788
-------------
"Visual C++" - 53
- "Visual C++.Net" - 1
"MFC" - 54
"Visual Basic" - 857
- "Visual Basic.Net" - 1
"VB" - 616
- "VB.Net" - 17
"ASP" - 741
"C#" - 28
"C++.Net" - 8
Estimated Total: 2357
Tools:
"Visual InterDev" - 83
"Visual Studio" - 94
- "Visual Studio.Net" - 12
"Telecommunications"
--------------------------
Languages:
"Java" - 28
-----------
"Visual C++" - 1
"MFC" - 5
"Visual Basic" - 5
"VB" - 7
"ASP" - 12
Estimated Total: 30
of these, 0 are .Net-related
Tools:
"Visual Studio" - 2
- "Visual Studio.Net" - 1
Total: 2
"Engineering"
----------------
Languages:
"Java" - 240
---------------
"Visual C++" - 24
"MFC" - 117
"Visual Basic" - 186
- "Visual Basic.Net" - 1
"VB" - 54
"C#" - 3
Estimated Total: 384
of these, 1 is .Net-related
Tools:
"Visual Studio" - 22
Total: 22
When you break the figures down into categories, ones which most people on
here would care about, Microsoft technologies are right up there with Java.
I say that, because there is certainly some overlap, where jobs are counted
more than once, due to a job having "ASP" and "VB" in it at the same time,
for example. So conservatively, I'd say the figures are overestimates. To
what degree, I don't know. It would've taken me too long to figure that
out.
--
---Mark
mmil...@attbi.com
"It's getting late. I've got better things to do than to have religious
discussions with you." -- Dillinger, "Tron"
"Joseph Walters" <jfwa...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:yZ6u8.84732$oN6.1...@news1.east.cox.net...
> "luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
> > C# and .NET and so on are in trouble because Microsoft is in trouble.
>
> A search on monster.com would seem to confirm this. 69 postings for C#
and
> 3791 postings for Java.
>
>
Justin
I'm an MS fan through and through and will always appreciate a company that
can succeed in a capitalist market (no digressions in response please, I
couldnt care less about Sun, Oracle, or America Online... I mean Netscape).
But I also have to respect the open source community, they improve code
purely for the sake of improving it (ego appears to be a bigger motivator
than money). It seems to me that the majority of open source folks embody
the spirit of innovation if not entreprenuerism. They do it just to do it
(and hopefully better); I don't think I would ever use an implementation
that the MS one but if somebody wants to put one out so be it.
Maybe an open souce implementation of .Net will legitimize it with the
academic world where Java is taking hold.
my 2 cents,
Justin
"Nick" <nber...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eE6ydXC5BHA.1304@tkmsftngp04...
luke
is (a) an incomplete version of .NET; (b) only for non-commercial use
-- try using this for any enterprise level mission critical work and
you'll probably end up regretting it deeply; (c) has some dubious
legal issues attached to it (just read the mono docs --- even they
note that their efforts may be adversely affected by patents); (d) is
a solution that almost no linux programmer is asking for --- ie, it'll
probably die due to not being used, although microsofties are
obviously milking it for all it's worth??
"dimd00d" <d...@ezn.com> wrote in message news:<ubnNYu$4BHA.616@tkmsftngp05>...
Mark Miller
vendors, as you say, Sun owns the rights to it. Why else does Microsoft
have to license from Sun the ability to put out a JVM? If Java were an ANSI
standard, for example, Microsoft wouldn't have to go to Sun for permission.
Java is a defacto standard, like Turbo Pascal from Borland was a defacto
standard on PCs in the 1980s. I don't consider it a "standard" as in
"Standard C++". C++ isn't owned by anybody. It's been standardized by
ANSI, therefore any compiler company can write a compiler that complies with
it, without asking for permission from anybody. You don't have to worry
about which company owns the rights to it.
If AT&T, who invented it, were to go under tomorrow, I wouldn't have to
worry about getting a compliant compiler in the future, because the standard
is still there. And I wouldn't have to worry about another vendor getting
control of it and trusting it to its tender mercies.
It's not the matter of licensing and licensing revenue that's important
here. It's the fact that Java is owned by a corporate entity, and therefore
that entity has sway over its development and whether it succeeds or fails.
As I've said, I predict that in the next few years, we won't be talking
about "Java from Sun," but "Java from IBM." I wonder what that's going to
do to it 5, 10 years from then. Will it continue to be multi-platform, or
will IBM say, "Screw that. We're only going to produce Java for IBM
computers." I wouldn't consider that a smart move on its part, but still,
since it's owned by somebody, they can do what they want with it.
From my point of view, the reason there is a semblance of a standards
committee (the JCP?) for Java is because Sun wanted it to have one. It
seems like a good idea to me, but they didn't have to do that.
Sun has licensed others to produce JVMs (which, by the way, behave slightly
differently from Sun's, for some reason--and I'm not just talking about
Microsoft's), but it didn't have to do that either.
Sun's control does have advantages for Java. As someone pointed out to me
earlier, having a single, standard version of the language, without
fracturing, is a plus. You could look at Visual Basic in the same way,
since Microsoft controls that language.
As far as Sun's ill health, look at its stock price. As of Friday, it was
at $7.97 a share. That's not a good place to be. If Sun were doing better,
I wouldn't even be bringing this up.
By contrast, Microsoft was at $55.93 a share, and IBM was at $85.60 on
Friday.
If the roles were reversed, if Microsoft was at $8, and Sun was at $56, I
would seriously consider switching to Java, because obviously Microsoft's
future would be in doubt. None of this factored into my decision to learn
about .Net. I just like it because I think it's a neat technology. But had
I looked and seen the theoretical prices I just mentioned, I would be
seriously thinking of ditching .Net for Java.
Some have said Microsoft is in deep trouble already due to the lawsuits, but
I have greater faith that the legal system will not take a "slash-and-burn"
approach to Microsoft, and I'm content to let the parties involved work it
out.
HP (17.80) doesn't look too bad. Compaq (9.98)? I dunno... But these guys
have been talking about merging (which is still up in the air at this
point...sigh!), and this has gotten mostly negative reviews. Investors seem
to think HP has lost its mind for even considering this. Dell is doing
pretty well though, if you haven't noticed (26.12).
--
---Mark
mmil...@attbi.com
"It's getting late. I've got better things to do than to have religious
discussions with you." -- Dillinger, "Tron"
"asj" <ka...@XXX.com> wrote in message news:3CB998...@XXX.com...
luke
points.
btw, to answer the quesyion "who really cares" below: it matters
because "learning" and becoming an expert at one technology takes time
and effort....it matters because we all won't live 300 years and we
only have a limited amount of time to devote to what we consider
important.
"John Timney \(Microsoft MVP\)" <xyzti...@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<uJ$hLGA5BHA.2412@tkmsftngp04>...
dimd00d
you will get a complete version of .net?! those things take time
(b) the key word here is 'probably'
(c) if MS had problems with it they would already have stepped on it and
shut it down
(d) do you consider yourself to be a representative of all linux
programmers?! then I guess all they want is java?
Anyways, the reason i answered with a link to mono was 'Have you considered
the fact that Java runs on more than 1 platform?'. Which was completely
irrelevant and trolish answer to 'Have you considered how long has Java
been around and how long C#/.Net has been around?!'.
I am tired of the stupid 'oh see how many jobs there are posted for
java'....prolly if there was the possibility to go back in time and check
the ads for programmers 30 years ago it would be:
Cobol - 99.9%
C - 0.1%
Java - no thanx I prefer Cocoa
Finally. Personally I dont care about your trollish posts, I dont care how
long do YOU think that C#/.Net will last, I dont care how many jobs are
there for Java (I've been coding for more than 15 years and can do systems
level programming on PC and Mac and believe me I dont care jack shit about
Java and dont check the job sites every 5 mins to see whats trendy). C#/.Net
gives me the scalability and the RAD tools I need for my current project
without sacrificing performance (easy interop with non-managed code) so I am
just going to stick with it (as you should stick to
comp.lang.java.advocacy).
Have a nice day.
Dim
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58c3c98f.0204...@posting.google.com...
Justin
> C# and .NET and so on are in trouble because Microsoft is in trouble.
>
> fact that Microsoft holds rein on them dooms them from the start to at
> most a few years lifetime.
>
> Ok, you're getting antsy now, and running off on the swear words, but
> wait, let me explain.
>
> #1 Is microsoft in financial trouble?
>
Food for thought....
Microsoft has a market capitalization of 302.87 billion as of market close
on Friday, on that same day Sun had a market capitalization of 25.84
billion. Now Microsoft has 38 billion in cash (hard currency not stocks tied
up in the market). That means when the Nasdaq opens Monday morning Microsoft
has the financial means to buy Sun outright (albeit the Sun board would
never allow it but just that MS could swing it is pretty interesting).
People in glass houses would do well not to throw stones.
Justin
Arild Fines
> have you considered the fact that mono is just a marketing ploy
Marketing ploy from whom? MS doesnt own Ximian.
> is (a) an incomplete version of .NET;
Apparently they aim to be binary interoperable with the MS implementation -
incomplete is not an option in that case.
>(b) only for non-commercial use
Bullshit. The libraries, which are the only things you would need to
directly include in your app, are under the MIT X11 license.
Quote:
Question 66: Will I be able to write proprietary applications that run
with Mono?
Yes. The licensing scheme is planned to allow proprietary developers to
write applications with Mono.
>(c) has some dubious legal issues attached to it (just read the mono
docs --- even they
> note that their efforts may be adversely affected by patents);
Quote:
Question 69: Could patents be used to completely disable Mono (either
submarine patents filed now, or changes made by Microsoft specifically
to create patent problems)?
No. First, its basic functional capabilities have pre-existed too long
to be held up by patents. The basic components of Mono are technologically
equivalent to Sun's Java technology, which has been around for years. Mono
will also implement multi-language and multi-architecture support, but
there are previous technologies such as UCSD p-code and ANDF that also
support multiple languages using a common intermediate
language. The libraries are similar to other language's libraries, so again,
they're too similar to be patentable in large measure.
However, if Microsoft does patent some technology, then our plan is to
either (1) work around it, (2) chop out patented pieces, (3) find prior
art that would render the patent useless. Not providing a patented
capability would weaken the interoperability, but it would still provide the
free software / open source software community with good development
tools, which is the primary reason for developing Mono.
>(d) is a solution that almost no linux programmer is asking for --- ie,
it'll
> probably die due to not being used,
And you base that statement on what?
--
Arild Fines
- The computer was conceived as a tool to reduce complexity. Some people
found this loss of complexity unacceptable, and developed UNIX to
reintroduce it.
dimd00d
the needed theoretical basis it takes very short period of time to learn the
syntax/pecularities of a given language/framework. And speaking of
important, what do you consider important - the stuff that will bring you
more money? For me programming was always more of an art that brings me
pleasure than a moneymaking tool.
Dim
binarg
>The .NET effect of this is that if you do not like it or believe in it, do
>not use it. I do not like the MFC or Java. I do not use them.
Amen...
Amen...
Amen...
Amen...
Amen...
Amen...
Amen...
binarg
Amen...
Amen...
binarg
"John Timney (Microsoft MVP)" <xyzti...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:uJ$hLGA5BHA.2412@tkmsftngp04...
Arild Fines
news:eTavDxD5BHA.568@tkmsftngp05...
> Amen...
> Amen...
> Amen...
In a spiritual mood today, are we? :-)
asj
price of a stock cannot be directly compared to one another?
sun's stock price has split several times since the internet came on...i
am not in the mood to do a compare of total market value, so just take
it from me that your comparing the darn stock prices based on absolute
value makes absolutely no sense.
nasdaq will delist stocks that are consistently below $1 though.
sun still leads the UNIX server market (leading both IBM and HP), and is
about as likely to go down as IBM or HP/Compaq. All the hardware makers
are in trouble because of the economy, but once the economy starts
moving up, things should straighen themselves out again.
Rodrigo B Mazzilli
What about Sun? I have spent about 1 year working on my graduation on Jini, the
much-hyped technology from Sun.
Where are the Jini-enabled TVs, setup-boxes they promissed. Sun is very expert
in hyping. As well as Java browser, picoJava, JavaOS and countless hypes from
Sun.
You are also very wrong when you say Microsoft is in a tough situation. Sun is
indeed. If .NET catches up they will end up being a niche player, simply
because Java failed in client side and .NET may be portable to other
architectures.
Microsoft has failed in handhelds indeed. But they are changing the game.
PocketPC is far better and cheaper than old PalmOS. And they are gaining
terrain fast.
At last but not at least, many said that Microsoft would lose in the Internet
game. Netscape was the leader in browsers huh? Where is Netscape now and its
browser?
People forget of the huge market influence Microsoft holds. They've got
Windows, and that's all they need. Things are just easier with a Windows on
every house and office desk.
Do you love Linux? So why don't you install it for your parents, sisters? Linux
is good but it will never catch up to normal users. Windows did and it will
take decades to be replaced. So .NET will catch up and C# too. For decades...
Rodrigo
Robert R. Richter
Have you ever seen a C# guy posting to a java-related NG
to promote .NET or C# ??
Please 'go back' to your Java community and wait
til (r)evolution has finished its job on Java ...
Have a nice day ...
Jim Sculley
> How much does Sun pay people like you for such postings ??
>
> Have you ever seen a C# guy posting to a java-related NG
> to promote .NET or C# ??
Certainly. Eric Gunnerson himself posts to comp.lang.java.advocacy.
Every post he makes tells people to 'visit the C# team' in a signature
that (for some silly Outlook-related reason), appears at the top of each
and every one of his posts.
Eric posts under the guise of 'clearing up misconceptions about C#'.
I've noticed that the only time he clears up said misconceptions is when
clarifying will cast C# in a better light. Not a peep from him when
someone claims the .NET or the CLR has been submitted to ECMA.
Jim S.
Mark Thornton
"Robert R. Richter" <c...@myRegio.com> wrote in message
news:dg$umWG5B...@prophecy.DA-SOFTWARE.NET...
> Have you ever seen a C# guy posting to a java-related NG
> to promote .NET or C# ??
Happens regularly. We get posts from SmallTalk enthusiasts too, although
they tend to be more polite and far less arrogant.
David Brabant
> Happens regularly. We get posts from SmallTalk
> enthusiasts too, although they tend to be more polite
> and far less arrogant.
Mmmmhh? Like Alan Kay when he says:
"Java is the most distressing thing to hit computing
since MS-DOS."
--
David
Werner Purrer
<c...@myRegio.com> wrote:
>How much does Sun pay people like you for such postings ??
>
>Have you ever seen a C# guy posting to a java-related NG
>to promote .NET or C# ??
>
Yes currently, you are crossposting to the java newsgroup
asj
>
> Nonsense!
> What about Sun? I have spent about 1 year working on my graduation on Jini, the
> much-hyped technology from Sun.
> Where are the Jini-enabled TVs, setup-boxes they promissed. Sun is very expert
> in hyping. As well as Java browser, picoJava, JavaOS and countless hypes from
> Sun.
JINI is an overhyped product that was a solution looking for a problem
in the real world (ah, just like mono). I laughed like crazy when I
first saw a brochure in a conference about it. You must have been crazy
to concentrate on it. J2ME is already being used in 18 million phones
since mid-2001, and most new phones coming out from the major vendors
all have J2ME pre-installed.
I tend to jump on something when there's MANY vendors supporting it, as
J2ME is. I definitely am jumping on this bandwagon. btw, you're being
misled AGAIN by jumping on the .NET bandwagon.
>
> You are also very wrong when you say Microsoft is in a tough situation. Sun is
> indeed. If .NET catches up they will end up being a niche player, simply
> because Java failed in client side and .NET may be portable to other
> architectures.
uh, this isn't a sun vs microsoft thing.
the question is, will other architectures beyond the server want to? the
answer is: no.
> Microsoft has failed in handhelds indeed. But they are changing the game.
> PocketPC is far better and cheaper than old PalmOS. And they are gaining
> terrain fast.
ah...no they aren't...there was just a report out that palm is again
gaining market share in europe. with the new multimedia SONY palms out,
i'm sure thay'll start getting rid of those overpriced Compaq's (esp now
that compaq was, ahem, taken over by HP, and is ripe with problems)...
> At last but not at least, many said that Microsoft would lose in the Internet
> game. Netscape was the leader in browsers huh? Where is Netscape now and its
> browser?
OLDDDD argument that holds no water....netscape was a single product
froma single company, supported by almost none of the desktop makers
which, (due to probably pressure by the abusive monopolist microsoft)
bundled IE with EVERY desktop...
java is supported by major vendors and open source organizations like
apache. It is not going away anytime soon...in fact, like argued, it is
.NET that may be in trouble if ever microsoft gets its just punishments
from the courts and decides to do another turnaround, dragging all you
guys along on another ride.
> Do you love Linux? So why don't you install it for your parents, sisters? Linux
linux is gaining on the server. and btw, look at this report about open
soucre apache being better (and more secure) than IIs...
Apache 2.0 Beats IIS at Its Own Game
http://www.eweek.com/article/0,3658,s=702&a=25458,00.asp
one major reason why we switched ourselves to linux/apache.
Cameron Purdy
> vendors, as you say, Sun owns the rights to it. Why else does Microsoft
> have to license from Sun the ability to put out a JVM? If Java were an
ANSI
> standard, for example, Microsoft wouldn't have to go to Sun for
permission.
You don't have to license Java to implement it, you just can't call it Java.
BTW Similar with C# / Microsoft.
> Java is a defacto standard, like Turbo Pascal from Borland was a defacto
> standard on PCs in the 1980s.
Well, at least you post your opinions honestly.
I'd say that C#/CLI/CLR/.NET is a standard, just like COM was a standard
(remember, it too was "standardized").
Java is more like C/C++ ... universally accepted and available.
> If AT&T, who invented it, were to go under tomorrow, I wouldn't have to
> worry about getting a compliant compiler in the future, because the
standard
> is still there. And I wouldn't have to worry about another vendor getting
> control of it and trusting it to its tender mercies.
Definitely ... same with Java.
> Sun has licensed others to produce JVMs (which, by the way, behave
slightly
> differently from Sun's, for some reason
Our Java products run (production use) on JVMs from half a dozen vendors
without any changes -- or even concerns. I assume you've used Java? Or did
you just read a DrGUI column?
> Sun's control does have advantages for Java. As someone pointed out to me
> earlier, having a single, standard version of the language, without
> fracturing, is a plus. You could look at Visual Basic in the same way,
> since Microsoft controls that language.
Your problem with understanding the rest of the industry is that you live in
Microsoft-land. We use Java without buying anything from Sun. Not once have
we had to call Sun or buy a Sun product.
Sun benefits because as we write software (maybe for Windows, for example),
their hardware remains a choice for our customers. So they never get locked
out, like they were when developers were still following Microsoft. That's
the same reason that thousands of high tech companies do and will support
Java ... there's a market that they can participate in without fear of one
overarching and (as shown by history) diabolical controlling company.
> As far as Sun's ill health, look at its stock price. As of Friday, it was
> at $7.97 a share. That's not a good place to be. If Sun were doing
better,
> I wouldn't even be bringing this up.
> By contrast, Microsoft was at $55.93 a share, and IBM was at $85.60 on
> Friday.
Berkshire Hathaway is 10s of thousands of dollars a share. They could buy
IBM and Microsoft and Sun and Apple and AOL and GM and Ford and ... and have
lots of money left over.
> If the roles were reversed, if Microsoft was at $8, and Sun was at $56, I
> would seriously consider switching to Java
(Nice comprehension of the stock market, BTW ;-)
So Sun just needs to do a reverse split, and you'll dump .NET? SFBs.
Peace,
--
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
http://www.tangosol.com/
.NET to J2EE porting service available
"Mark Miller" <mmil...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:gTru8.38265$CH1.33745@sccrnsc02...
>
Jim Sculley
> You know what, I don't see the use of mono. It just seems like it's dubbing
> work already done. They claim to be an open source project, but Microsoft
> has already released the source code to .Net and the compilers.
Microsoft has done no such thing. The 'shared source' can only be used
for educational and/or research purposes. Calling it open source is an
insult to open source.
Jim S.
Jim Sculley
> The reason I say this is despite the fact that it is supported by many
> vendors, as you say, Sun owns the rights to it. Why else does Microsoft
> have to license from Sun the ability to put out a JVM?
They don't. Go to your local book store, buy a copy of the Java
Language Specification and the Java Virtual Machine Specification and
have at it. Everything you need to create your own Java implementation
is there.
> If Java were an ANSI
> standard, for example, Microsoft wouldn't have to go to Sun for permission.
They never had to in the first place. It was the path of least resistance.
Jim S.
Tim Tyler
: "Mark Thornton" <mtho...@optrak.co.uk> wrote
No - not quite like that. Alan Kay hasn't posted in c.l.j.a - AFAIK.
I for one would have liked Java to borrow more from Smalltalk than it did.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ t...@tt1.org
Rodrigo B Mazzilli
because it's too powerful.
Why do you think many tech companies have said that .NET is a danger?
.NET is Microsoft's late answer to Java platforms. What do I see in the future?
I see a Microsoft supporting .NET frameworks for Linux, Solaris, Apple and so
on. They have to work hard on that but it's very feasible.
That's why there is fear about .NET. Language-independence plus platform
independence scares a lot!
Sun is in trouble. They have not made much money out of Java so far. Actually
they even don't make good development environments(!)
Their J2EE implementation is a no-show in reasonable projects.
I am sorry, but you bet your hopes in the courts. That's simply because on
technology MS clearly has taken a great step toward definate leadership in
platforms.
--Mazzilli
asj
completely out of left field?
"> because it's too powerful."
jeezzz..you sound like a 12 year old doing the superman intro.
as far as i can tell, only AOL and SUNW have gone on the record to the
court noting that they worry .NET will allow microsoft to leverage its
monopoly to the server. AOL has been kicking microsoft's butt for so
long it's not even funny anymore, so i'm guessing these companies are
merely taking advantage of the fact that your "idol" has been labeled an
abusive monopolist and are making sure THEY have the advantage.
btw, you ARE on the wrong side of "truth, justice, and the american
way", you know <g>, since the law has already branded microsoft as an
abusive monopolist.
also, based on sales of java and other books, as well as on the job
market situation, and surveys done on mindshre, .NET and C# are by and
large simply cannibalizing VB and ASP, and other microsoft technologies,
and not making any dent on almost anything else. there is just too much
antipathy against this monopolist from many developers and other
companies.
http://www.blueboard.com/mantis/java.htm#caging
Greg Davis
"Cameron Purdy" <cpu...@tangosol.com> wrote in message
news:#vfdUmI5BHA.1936@tkmsftngp02...
> Berkshire Hathaway is 10s of thousands of dollars a share. They could buy
> IBM and Microsoft and Sun and Apple and AOL and GM and Ford and ... and
have
> lots of money left over.
Are you familiar with the term Market valuation?
Do you really believe what you have written here?
asj
share price is NOT the way to judge a stock or the company behind
it...thus the refernce to tens of thousands of dollars....
helvenston
"analysis" of relative worth.
I thought he was off his rocker too until I went back a few posts...
"Greg Davis" <gda...@nospam.citynetworks.com> wrote in message
news:#qJnkxK5BHA.1444@tkmsftngp04...
Cameron Purdy
>
> Do you really believe what you have written here?
Sorry, I forgot the <sarcasm>put comment here</sarcasm> tags. Apparently,
they aren't supported by my Mozilla browser. (That's sarcasm too ... I'm
using MS Outlook Express, so you can't accuse me of MS-bashing. ;-)
Peace,
--
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
http://www.tangosol.com/
.NET to J2EE porting service available
Tim Tyler
: "Cameron Purdy" <cpu...@tangosol.com> wrote in message
:> Berkshire Hathaway is 10s of thousands of dollars a share. They could buy
:> IBM and Microsoft and Sun and Apple and AOL and GM and Ford and ... and
:> have lots of money left over.
: Are you familiar with the term Market valuation?
: Do you really believe what you have written here?
Read the Mark Miller post he was responding to - and suddenly his post
will make perfect sense ;-)
Tim Tyler
: Sun is in trouble. They have not made much money out of Java so far.
``For years, Sun has refused to quantify the financial value of Java, but
some details illuminate just how important it is to the company's server
hardware, the powerful networked machines that handle chores such as
stock trades or online catalog sales. "Java is a key factor in 90
percent of sales," Sueltz said, estimating that 98 percent of Sun
servers used by customers run Java software.''
- http://news.com.com/2009-1001-866365.html
90% of sales involve Java as a "key factor". Is that clear enough?
Jim Sculley
> I finally got curious enough to look at this myself. I went to Monster and
> got some figures.
>
> I tried looking for the names of Microsoft-specific technologies, just to
> get an idea of how Microsoft-related jobs compare to Java jobs.
>
> As it turned out, the high number of Java jobs quoted earlier came as a
> result of looking up "All" jobs in "All" locations, which is a catch-all
> search. When I did this search, I found several that were "Sales Manager,"
> and "Technical Trainer" which were looking for people with a background in
> Java, but not programming in it.
>
> I did some analysis on the Microsoft-related numbers, so they will not
> necessarily be the same as if you were to just look them up raw. I focused
> on tools and languages. I did this to try to get a rough idea of actual
> jobs available. For example, I looked up "ASP". This includes "ASP.Net".
> ASP.Net is a secondary technology, when compared with ASP, since ASP 6 had
> its own scripting language and API, whereas you can use any .Net language
> with ASP.Net. So the language should be considered the primary indicator
> when it comes to ASP.Net.
>
> Some overlap is inevitable when doing this sort of survey. For example,
> there will be plenty of instances where "ASP" appears in the same position
> description with "VB" or "Visual C++". So these figures should be
> considered overestimates, not exact.
>
> I included terms that are generally listed distinctly. For example, "Visual
> C++" and "MFC" are generally not listed together in the same ad. They're
> two different names that apply to the same tool. People generally use one
> or the other. Same goes for "Visual Basic" and "VB".
>
> If a term is not included in a listing below, it means it came up with no
> matches.
>
> The Java numbers are, of course, exact, since there's really only one search
> term to look up, "Java".
How convenient for you to think that way. What about EJB, JSP, applet,
servlet, JINI, beans, JFC, AWT, websphere, tomcat, jboss, orion......
>
> I also noted where ".Net" occurred in the skills area. These are generally
> indented to show they are a subset of another term.
>
> If you look at "All" jobs, you get
> -------------------------------------
>
> Languages:
>
> "Java" - 3751
Until you add the above terms, after which you get:
EJB - 482
JSP - 766
servlet - 2542
applet - 17
beans - 154 (lots of noise included in this search, but many are
software related)
Jini - 4
>
> ---------------
>
> "Visual C++" - 140
Forte - 33
Netbeans - 1
JBuilder - 36
VisualCafe - 1
VisualAge for Java - 46
I think you see where this is going. You search methodology is flawed.
I would ask you to redo it, but in the end we won't learn much and it
appears you've spent way too much time providing the data you have.
>
> When you break the figures down into categories, ones which most people on
> here would care about, Microsoft technologies are right up there with Java.
Sure, when you include every MS category you can think of and exclude
every Java category.
Jim S.
Tim Tyler
: Language-independence plus platform independence scares a lot!
The JVM runs dozens of languages is platform independent and has been out
for well over six years - and the competition has indeed found it scary:
"This scares the hell out of me." - Microsoft Chair and CEO
Bill Gates on Java, from documents filed by Sun in the legal
case between the two companies (reported October 22, 1998).
"Java is here to overthrow what we've done" - Bill Gates in the NYT, 1995.
So scary that they spent over six years developing a response - which
bears an uncanny resemblance to Java itself.
Mark Miller
"everything but the kitchen sink" approach. Notice that I broke it down
into two categories: languages and tools. The tools category was not
included in my estimated totals. I did NOT include ASP.Net (in fact I
deliberately subtracted "ASP.Net" from all "ASP" searches), and ADO.Net,
because those are secondary technologies to the languages, just as EJB, JSP,
servlets, applets, etc. are all secondary technologies to the language of
Java.
The earlier figures were showing "Java - 3-thousand-some-ads vs. C# -
50-something ads", supposedly showing that Microsoft technologies were "in
deep trouble" when compared with Java. What you all neglected is that jobs
in the Microsoft technology realm are divided among many languages, not just
one. That is what I showed. I included "ASP" only because it was
originally driven by its own scripting language. This has since changed
with ASP.Net. Hence the reason I subtracted ASP.Net out of the search.
When a company is looking for a Microsoft developer, they do not typically
say, "looking for Microsoft developer." They'll say, "looking for VB
developer," or "Visual C++ developer," or "MFC developer" (often without
referring to Visual C++ at all), or "C# developer," you get the idea.
I figure in Java ads, they would say something like, "Looking for Java
developer *with* experience in EJB and servlets." This would be like an ad
for a Microsoft-related position saying "Looking for VB.Net developer *with*
ASP.Net experience." EJB, servlets, ASP.Net are secondary technologies, no?
If Java ads frequently only specify "EJB," "JSP," "servlets," and "applets,"
etc., excluding the term "Java," then you would have a point, and I will
plead guilty to ignorance of the Java realm. :-)
When I was doing the search, I was beginning to agree with the detractors of
the Java trollers. These sort of jobs comparisons aren't that meaningful,
because it's hard to know what you're actually fetching until you look at
each ad. Someone pointed out, I think rightly, that the term "C#" is not a
reliable search term, since '#' is interpreted a special way by many web
servers. I just got curious about it once the discussion got started. It
gave me a better idea of what's going on out there, so I thought I'd share
it with y'all. :-)
--
---Mark
mmil...@attbi.com
"It's getting late. I've got better things to do than to have religious
discussions with you." -- Dillinger, "Tron"
"Jim Sculley" <nic...@abraxis.com> wrote in message
news:3CBB80FC...@abraxis.com...
luke
mastering a language thoroughly takes effort and years (and especially
if the language is rapidly evolving like java).
if you like intersting programming, ever think of doing J2ME
programming? it is VERY cool to see your own apps running on a cell
phone. Showed MotoGP (a motorcycle racing game) to my dad and he
literally freaked out <g>
Nextel has several phones out in the USA (i50,i85,i90) that run java,
and Sprint is rolling out its own phones come this summer or fall.
http://www.sdtimes.com/news/052/emb1.htm
http://java.sun.com/j2me/
there's a free development kit at the above URL, but both motorola
and sprint also offer their own kits.
"dimd00d" <d...@ezn.com> wrote in message news:<uDzBDqD5BHA.1456@tkmsftngp02>...
> Give me a break, programming is based on simple informatics theory. Having
> the needed theoretical basis it takes very short period of time to learn the
> syntax/pecularities of a given language/framework. And speaking of
> important, what do you consider important - the stuff that will bring you
> more money? For me programming was always more of an art that brings me
> pleasure than a moneymaking tool.
>
> Dim
Mark Miller
[stuff deleted]
> Java is more like C/C++ ... universally accepted and available.
So there's an open source version or something? Since it can't be called
Java, what's it called? I realize the JDK is free of charge if I get it
from Sun. That wasn't what I was talking about.
> > If AT&T, who invented it, were to go under tomorrow, I wouldn't have to
> > worry about getting a compliant compiler in the future, because the
> standard
> > is still there. And I wouldn't have to worry about another vendor
getting
> > control of it and trusting it to its tender mercies.
>
> Definitely ... same with Java.
>
> > Sun has licensed others to produce JVMs (which, by the way, behave
> slightly
> > differently from Sun's, for some reason
>
> Our Java products run (production use) on JVMs from half a dozen vendors
> without any changes -- or even concerns. I assume you've used Java? Or did
> you just read a DrGUI column?
No. Past experience. It was a while ago. From what you say, it sounds
like things have changed for the better.
> > Sun's control does have advantages for Java. As someone pointed out to
me
> > earlier, having a single, standard version of the language, without
> > fracturing, is a plus. You could look at Visual Basic in the same way,
> > since Microsoft controls that language.
>
> Your problem with understanding the rest of the industry is that you live
in
> Microsoft-land. We use Java without buying anything from Sun. Not once
have
> we had to call Sun or buy a Sun product.
>
> Sun benefits because as we write software (maybe for Windows, for
example),
> their hardware remains a choice for our customers. So they never get
locked
> out, like they were when developers were still following Microsoft. That's
> the same reason that thousands of high tech companies do and will support
> Java ... there's a market that they can participate in without fear of one
> overarching and (as shown by history) diabolical controlling company.
So this is the basis of Sun's antitrust case against Microsoft in CA? It
sounds kind of weak to me. It's like saying, "Our well-being in the
hardware market is dependent on Microsoft including Java with its OS." No
one has to choose Sun's machines if they develop for Java. They could use
Linux machines, where they can buy their hardware from anybody, and get the
OS for free, if they so choose.
Further, Microsoft still supports C++. If you use just the ANSI Standard
features, many of which are included with Visual C++, you could port it to a
Sun box, or any other box, for that matter. Why is this all dependent on a
language/software platform? I'll take your word for it that it's far easier
to port a Java program across platforms, but it's not impossible to do the
same thing in another, industry standard language that runs on the Windows
platform. I've done it myself several times.
Something doesn't add up here. Sun's claim that seemed to instigate the
whole thing is that Microsoft pulled Java as standard equipment from XP.
From what you say, I surmise that Sun can't even point to something
Microsoft did that directly harms them. It would seem Microsoft could
easily bring in several PD JVMs and say, "See? We're not discriminating.
Sun doesn't own these, and we're not including them either." I'm getting
the impression Sun's case doesn't have much to stand on.
Let's take a hypothetical scenario to illustrate the point. Let's say
somewhere down the road, Microsoft announces it's dropping C++ from Visual
Studio (not entirely a far-flung possibility). If the Sun case is allowed
to stand, another hardware or OS vendor could come along and argue that
Microsoft is hurting them, because it has dropped C++, and thereby is making
it very difficult for apps. written on the Microsoft platform to be ported
to their platform. Nevermind that by that point, it's entirely possible
that one could use ECMA C# to write software for Windows or many other
platforms.
Based on this, would the plaintiff actually have a case, given that one
could conceivably port a C++ program to any number of platforms, not just
the plaintiff's??
> > As far as Sun's ill health, look at its stock price. As of Friday, it
was
> > at $7.97 a share. That's not a good place to be. If Sun were doing
> better,
> > I wouldn't even be bringing this up.
>
> > By contrast, Microsoft was at $55.93 a share, and IBM was at $85.60 on
> > Friday.
>
> Berkshire Hathaway is 10s of thousands of dollars a share. They could buy
> IBM and Microsoft and Sun and Apple and AOL and GM and Ford and ... and
have
> lots of money left over.
Come on. Who would have a real interest in buying up Sun's business and
getting the rights to Java to boot? (not a rhetorical question) Think for a
bit.
> > If the roles were reversed, if Microsoft was at $8, and Sun was at $56,
I
> > would seriously consider switching to Java
>
> (Nice comprehension of the stock market, BTW ;-)
>
> So Sun just needs to do a reverse split, and you'll dump .NET? SFBs.
No. I said if Microsoft had as low a valuation as Sun does now, I would
seriously consider switching. Notice I didn't say, "I'm switching to Java
because of IBM's higher numbers."
Tim Tyler
: i disagree. you can learn the basics quickly, but understanding and
: mastering a language thoroughly takes effort and years (and especially
: if the language is rapidly evolving like java).
Java the /library/ may be rapidly moving target - but Java the /language/
has stayed remarkably still for the past few years. Too still, perhaps.
There /have/ been changes - but I'm not sure you could describe them as
"rapid".
Tim Tyler
: "Cameron Purdy" <cpu...@tangosol.com> wrote:
:> Mark Miller <mmil...@attbi.com> wrote:
:> > As far as Sun's ill health, look at its stock price. As of Friday, it
:> > was at $7.97 a share. That's not a good place to be. If Sun were doing
:> > better, I wouldn't even be bringing this up.
:>
:> > By contrast, Microsoft was at $55.93 a share, and IBM was at $85.60 on
:> > Friday.
:>
:> Berkshire Hathaway is 10s of thousands of dollars a share. They could buy
:> IBM and Microsoft and Sun and Apple and AOL and GM and Ford and ... and
:> have lots of money left over.
: Come on. [...]
Yes - what was this fool talking about? Surely he wasn't being serious?
;-) ;-) ;-)
Mark Miller
> http://news.com.com/2009-1001-866365.html
Quoting from the same article:
There's just one problem: For all its hype and popularity, Java has made
more money in direct software sales for competitors than for the company
that invented it. Sun, for example, is a distant third in the most
profitable market for Java software, application servers. And the company
gives away for free its Java Software Development Kit, easily the most
popular tool among Java developers.
Mike Gilpin, an analyst with Giga Information Group, likens Sun's missed
opportunity to the Spanish exploring the Western Hemisphere but losing
ultimate control. "It doesn't matter that you were the first Spanish
explorer to get there. Your name is stuck on the road sign, but people
forget who you were," he said.
...
Sun led the server market at the height of the Internet boom but has since
lost ground to IBM and other rivals. Plummeting revenue has forced Sun to
lay off staff and take other serious measures to cut costs.
----------------------------------
Funny how you can quote something out of context to make an argument...
Mark Miller
--
---Mark
mmil...@attbi.com
"It's getting late. I've got better things to do than to have religious
discussions with you." -- Dillinger, "Tron"
"Werner Purrer" <we...@operamail.com> wrote in message
news:3cbad7a8...@news-east.newscene.com...
asj
the reference implementations of some of the most important components
of the J2EE spec are open source...the refernce implementation for
servlets/jsp container is the Apache Tomcat/Catalina server.
http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/index.html
There are also open source J2EE app servers (similar to IBM Websphere,
Bea Weblogic) like JBOSS and the Enhydra XML-app server.
http://www.jboss.org/
http://www.enhydra.org/
* enhydra also has something "cute" called ksoap which is an open source
java API suitable for J2ME development. It enables J2ME apps to process
and send soap messages (something you currently do NOT want to do in
real life because of the memory limitations of small devices)
There are open source IDE tools for java such as netbeans and eclipse to
name the more prominent.
http://www.netbeans.org/nonav/index2.html
There are opens source template engines like Apache's Velocity which are
java based.
Some of the most popular XML parsers are java based and are from apache
and include Xerces (parsers) and Xalan, for XSLT processing
etc.
asj
company. java has benefitted a lot of companies (not just sunw), and
thus has established itself as a common standard for vendors to coalesce
upon....even Macromedia (with COld Fusion), and Apple (with webobjects)
have moved or have started to move towards becoming J2EE compatible.
languages do seem to have a finite lifespan, but with so many new
opportunities for expansion (in smart cards, cars, phones, set top
boxes), i don't see java becoming stagnant or marginalized any time
within the next 5-10 years.
that said, you just never know...apple always thought ibm was the
biggest bad guy, and no one paid any attention to microsoft lurking in
the background...sun and the others focus on microsoft today, but the
next IBM could be lying unnoticed with the next "killer" technology.
GreyCloud
It didn't take me very long to see M$ modifying Java and
then sending it in to be standardized. M$ is trying to
hi-jack Java and call it their own. C# looks an awful lot
like Java.
Tim Tyler
: "Tim Tyler" <t...@tt1.org> wrote in message news:GuMzx...@bath.ac.uk...
:> In comp.lang.java.advocacy Rodrigo B Mazzilli
:> : Sun is in trouble. They have not made much money out of Java so far.
:>
:> ``For years, Sun has refused to quantify the financial value of Java, but
:> some details illuminate just how important it is to the company's server
:> hardware, the powerful networked machines that handle chores such as
:> stock trades or online catalog sales. "Java is a key factor in 90
:> percent of sales," Sueltz said, estimating that 98 percent of Sun
:> servers used by customers run Java software.''
:>
:> - http://news.com.com/2009-1001-866365.html
:>
:> 90% of sales involve Java as a "key factor". Is that clear enough?
: Quoting from the same article:
[snip]
: Funny how you can quote something out of context to make an argument...
I didn't quote out of context - and /did/ make my point.
The notion that Sun "have not made much money out of Java so far"
is an incorrect one. Sun owe much of their modern existence to Java.
The fact that IBM may be making *more* money out of it than Sun is
neither here nor there.
Tim Tyler
: mmil...@attbi.com
: "Werner Purrer" <we...@operamail.com> wrote in message
:> "Robert R. Richter" <c...@myRegio.com> wrote:
:> >Have you ever seen a C# guy posting to a java-related NG
:> >to promote .NET or C# ??
:>
:> Yes currently, you are crossposting to the java newsgroup
: Luke from the Java group started this thread, so I guess you can blame him.
No blame appears to be involved. comp.lang.java.advocacy is about the
relative virtues of Java and competing technologies.
As C# is a Java wannabe, I'd say discussion of its merits, deficiencies
and prospects was firmly on topic there.
dimd00d
thinking - which usualy takes the most time, the language is just way to
express the ideas and usualy the learning curve is very fast. For example,
I've learned MacOS programming and rolled out my first systems level
application in just a month :)
Cell phone applications sure a nice, but at the current point of time I am
not interested in learning Java, not to mention that the current project I
am working on is on the totally oposite end of the spectrum - needs lots of
resources and specialized hardware. Since I need very rapid interface
prototyping and not platform independance the choices are Delphi, Java and
C#/.Net. Delphi is great but doesnt exactly give me the scalability I need
(its not a DB project), Java is not usable because of the performance hits
and the need to work with the hardware, so the only logical and remaining
choice is C# + non-managed code for the performance intensive/hardware
interface parts.
Dim
"luke" <llu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:58c3c98f.02041...@posting.google.com...
Mark Thornton
"Mark Miller" <mmil...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:2bOu8.50480$CH1.46259@sccrnsc02...
> Luke from the Java group started this thread, so I guess you can blame
him.
>
> --
ncaHammer "Java has 5 years left at most". The set of newsgroups being
included is also the same.
David Brabant
> As C# is a Java wannabe
I guess you mean Java is a C# "has been".
--
David
Cameron Purdy
>
> I guess you mean Java is a C# "has been".
<g> ... I guess it all depends on what you want to see. I remember calling
someone a "has been" once, and they retorted that a "has been" is better
than a "never was". ;-)
Peace,
--
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
http://www.tangosol.com/
.NET to J2EE porting service available
"David Brabant" <david....@qwanful.design.no.invalid> wrote in message
news:a9gp8o$oe7$1...@news.mch.sbs.de...
>
Cameron Purdy
> they even don't make good development environments(!)
> Their J2EE implementation is a no-show in reasonable projects.
And the great thing is that it doesn't affect the viability of Java.
Just wait till MS has to respond to the "next" Java ... they'll dump .NET
just like the last 10 "technologies" that they've "innovated".
I'm not sure why MS serfs see it as "Microsoft v. Sun" ... it's like you've
all got blinders on to how the rest of the industry works. Once you leave
the Microsoft shadow, you'll learn that it is possible to get solutions from
more than one company. Honestly, do you eat breakfast lunch and dinner at
McDonalds every day? Do you argue with people over who much better the Big
Mac is than the Whopper? How innovative McDonalds is with food? Why Pepsico
is going down?
> I see a Microsoft supporting .NET frameworks for Linux, Solaris, Apple and
so
> on. They have to work hard on that but it's very feasible.
> That's why there is fear about .NET. Language-independence plus platform
> independence scares a lot!
Sure, I see Microsoft giving up the only edge it has in the market -- the
leverage that it's OS monopoly gives it.
Come back here and I shall taunt you some more.
> I am sorry, but you bet your hopes in the courts. That's simply because on
> technology MS clearly has taken a great step toward definate leadership in
> platforms.
That's simply because on (sic) cuisine McDonalds clearly has taken a great
step toward definate (sic) leadership in all culinary disciplines.
Peace,
--
Cameron Purdy
Tangosol, Inc.
http://www.tangosol.com/
.NET to J2EE porting service available
"Rodrigo B Mazzilli" <rodrigo...@icqmail.com> wrote in message
news:OCmMfuJ5BHA.1812@tkmsftngp02...
>
Jerry
That does not proove your premise. In fact, when one's noodle is
applied, and if one were to extrapolate past business' history lessons,
one would have to be very concerned that the 800 pound gorilla
(microsoft) has turned its full attention to the one area that Java may
or may not have had a good hold on until recently.
To apply a loose alagory--It may have been the Russians who got to space
first, but it was the crazy Americans who rushed to the moon first,
built a viable space shuttle first, and took over world cuisine with
fried chicken.
Lesson learned: Never mess with or scare the 800 pound gorilla. Its more
than likely gonna kick your butt right into the dustbin of history.
I wish you well, but I believe history sits with the 800 pound gorilla.
Best,
Jerry
In article <Gun0F...@bath.ac.uk>, t...@tt1.org says...
Jerry
Your point?
Peter Köhlmann
> Tim,
>
> That does not proove your premise. In fact, when one's noodle is
> applied, and if one were to extrapolate past business' history lessons,
> one would have to be very concerned that the 800 pound gorilla
> (microsoft) has turned its full attention to the one area that Java may
> or may not have had a good hold on until recently.
>
> To apply a loose alagory--It may have been the Russians who got to space
> first, but it was the crazy Americans who rushed to the moon first,
> built a viable space shuttle first, and took over world cuisine with
> fried chicken.
>
Certainly you are kidding, right? This rather smelly shit you call eatable?
I guess most of the rest of the world will not exactly call that stuff
"cuisine". Not that you don't find decent food in the US, you certainly do.
But not his one. This is not even food. This is MS-fast-shit
> Lesson learned: Never mess with or scare the 800 pound gorilla. Its more
> than likely gonna kick your butt right into the dustbin of history.
>
> I wish you well, but I believe history sits with the 800 pound gorilla.
>
Nope. See the fate of the real gorillas
Peter
--
This problem was sponsored bei Microsoft
sunset
opinions to Sun so they can use it as evidence for their
new lawsuit agains Microsoft. And please cc all the states
that are suing Microsoft.
Or maybe these interested parties will agree with you and
put their money and efforts in more meaningful things than
suing MS.
Greg Davis
"Cameron Purdy" <cpu...@tangosol.com> wrote in message
news:ukuvDvM5BHA.2684@tkmsftngp04...
> Sorry, I forgot the <sarcasm>put comment here</sarcasm> tags. Apparently,
> they aren't supported by my Mozilla browser. (That's sarcasm too ... I'm
> using MS Outlook Express, so you can't accuse me of MS-bashing. ;-)
>
> Peace,
>
> --
> Cameron Purdy
> Tangosol, Inc.
> http://www.tangosol.com/
> .NET to J2EE porting service available
Fair enough....
GreyCloud
Yes, it's called embrace, extend and exterminate.
that's what M$ is good at... innovation... that's a real
foreign word in M$ vocabulary.
Lincoln Bovee'
from?
--
Lincoln Bovee'
MCSD, MCDBA
lincol...@hotmail.com
"GreyCloud" <mi...@cumulus.com> wrote in message
news:3CBBB2F2...@cumulus.com...