Bible Is Historically Inaccurate?
dave
The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never
occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho.
And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a
mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation
was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling
nation.
Such startling propositions the product of findings by archaeologists
digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years have gained
wide acceptance among non- Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no
attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity
until now.
more at
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/09/arts/09BIBL.html
-dave
"It is better to burn the flag while wrapping yourself in the constitution than it is to burn the constitution while wrapping yourself in the flag."
-Molly Ivins
JWMeritt
CINDY SMITH
<grum...@onebox.com> writes:
> Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses.
> The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never
> occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho.
> And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a
> mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation
> was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling
> nation.
> Such startling propositions the product of findings by archaeologists
> digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years have gained
> wide acceptance among non- Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no
> attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity
> until now.
"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical forms of
writing. Myth, in this case, must not be understood to mean that the
events told were fictional or untrue. A myth is a profoundly true
statement which speaks to universal aspects of life and reality. It is a
statement whose meaning rises above time and space. Although biblical
myths were influenced by other mythical statements of the ancient world,
they are used by the biblical writers to express history's relationship to
God. They point to history's origins at the moment of the world's
creation. They speak of the beginnings where history touches eternity,
and, therefore, to moments which cannot be historically described. Myth is
thus essential to biblical faith. We do the Scriptures a serious injustice
if we read myth as though it were history. Such a tendency must be
resisted along with the opposite tendency to read biblical history as
though it were mythical. By reading the early chapters of Genesis with
sensitivity to poetic symbol and imagery, we can easily avoid such
temptations."
From: The New Catholic Study Bible
Saint Jerome Edition
Author: A priest named Leverdierre
> more at
> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/09/arts/09BIBL.html
> -dave
> "It is better to burn the flag while wrapping yourself in the constitution
than it is to burn the constitution while wrapping yourself in the flag."
> -Molly Ivins
--
Cindy Smith I have further observed under the sun that
c...@dragon.com The race is not won by the swift,
c...@5sc.net Nor the battle by the valiant;
c...@romancatholic.org Nor is bread won by the wise,
Nor wealth by the intelligent,
Me transmitte sursum, Nor favor by the learned.
Caledoni! -- JPS Ecclesiastes 9:11
Catharine Honeyman
> Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses.
> The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never
> occurred.
<snip>
> more at
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/09/arts/09BIBL.html
And in this month's issue of Harpers.
--
Aloha,
Catharine
Character is what you do when no one's watching.
dave
>"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical forms of
>writing. Myth, in this case, must not be understood to mean that the
>events told were fictional or untrue. A myth is a profoundly true
>statement which speaks to universal aspects of life and reality. It is a
>statement whose meaning rises above time and space. Although biblical
>myths were influenced by other mythical statements of the ancient world,
>they are used by the biblical writers to express history's relationship to
>God. They point to history's origins at the moment of the world's
>creation. They speak of the beginnings where history touches eternity,
>and, therefore, to moments which cannot be historically described. Myth is
>thus essential to biblical faith. We do the Scriptures a serious injustice
>if we read myth as though it were history. Such a tendency must be
>resisted along with the opposite tendency to read biblical history as
>though it were mythical. By reading the early chapters of Genesis with
>sensitivity to poetic symbol and imagery, we can easily avoid such
>temptations."
>
> From: The New Catholic Study Bible
> Saint Jerome Edition
> Author: A priest named Leverdierre
Thanks for the swell lesson on the meaning of the myth. Do you know I
have heard Christians state that the archaeological record supports
the Old Testament (and the new for that matter too). The more the
archaeologists dig golly jeepers the more they corroborate.
Where do these lies come from?
The power of the myth indeed.
Where does the myth end and reality begin?
Have you read any Joseph Campbell, Cindy?
Cl.Massé
hk0q8usmp2b187khg...@4ax.com...
> Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses.
> The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never
> occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho.
> And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a
> mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation
> was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling
> nation.
I wonder what is your point. Dou you laugh at the ones that believe in
It or the ones that give scientific explanations to strange events in
It?
The latter ones are unable to take in the message contained in the
Bible. They are like blind persons telling to dumb ones that light
doesn't exist. Never at any time was the historical accuracy required
in order to read It and to believe in God.
Saying that what is written in the Bible is less than certainly true is
not a news, or you have something else to say?
--
~~~~ %20cl...@free.fr%20 LPF
Liberty, Equality, Profitability.
PSmith9626
Come to american and discover our large subgroup of "fundamentalists" who
believe the bible literally.
best
penny
Or listen to them on shortwave.
>Never at any time was the historical accuracy required
>in order to read It and to believe in God.
It is however required to believe in the bible. If one part is a lie, why not
the rest?
If you want to believe in a god, you don't need a book.
dave
>I wonder what is your point. Dou you laugh at the ones that believe in
>It or the ones that give scientific explanations to strange events in
>It?
>The latter ones are unable to take in the message contained in the
>Bible. They are like blind persons telling to dumb ones that light
>doesn't exist. Never at any time was the historical accuracy required
>in order to read It and to believe in God.
>Saying that what is written in the Bible is less than certainly true is
>not a news, or you have something else to say?
Couldn't agree with you more. I gather there are no forces in France
that are coo coo for cocoa puffs to implement the "Theory Of
Intelligent Design" into school curriculums, or use the bible to
justify all sorts of nonsense and prejudice.
As I said, people are swallowing the "literal truth" brand of
Christianity here in the states. Many labor under the conviction that
archaeology supports and verifies the accuracy of the bible as
history, ergo all else is beyond question as well.
Now there's a little context for you about that old time religion and
the USA.
-dave
"I am personally acquainted with hundreds of
journalists, and the opinion of the majority
of them are not worth tuppence, but when they
speak in print it is the newspaper that is talking
and then their utterances shake the community
like the thunders of prophecy." -- Mark Twain, 1873
edk...@paradise.net
psmit...@aol.com says...
> If you want to believe in a god, you don't need a book.
So obvious that most miss it.
rian
Determined by the ministry of education. The only leeway for fanatics is
the 2 hours a week philosophical schooling which can be filled the way
the school wants, and 5 minutes at first and last period for prayer or
class-talk.
Even Islamitic and jewish schools have to follow it. That is why those
poor kids have extra hours a week for religious education. Evolution is
in the curriculum, so that is the norm for examinations, so that is what
is taught.
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"dave" <grum...@onebox.com> schreef in bericht
news:9dt59u8bd27b7rgrh...@4ax.com...
jimC
>
> I think that in France, like in Holland the curriculum is nationwide.
> Determined by the ministry of education. The only leeway for fanatics is
> the 2 hours a week philosophical schooling which can be filled the way
> the school wants, and 5 minutes at first and last period for prayer or
> class-talk.
> Even Islamitic and jewish schools have to follow it. That is why those
> poor kids have extra hours a week for religious education. Evolution is
> in the curriculum, so that is the norm for examinations, so that is what
> is taught.
In the Netherlands, at least for state schools, do smart kids skip
grades by taking qualifying exams, or whatever?
I skipped grades, and was called Skippy by older classmates, who of
course meant it good-naturedly but bugged me.
skippyC
Prigator
> Many labor under the conviction that
>archaeology supports and verifies the accuracy of the bible as
>history, ergo all else is beyond question as well.
To add fuel to that fire, as though it needed any, last night the History
Channel had a show on the search for Noah's Ark. Some think it has been
spotted on Mount Ararat at 14,000 feet. At least two different expeditions
have brought back pieces of wood carbon dated at 5,000 years. No doubt some
triumphant Sunday sermons are being written right now.
A question for the mathmatically inclined: How much water would it take to
flood the Earth to raise sea level an additional 14,000 feet? Afterwards,
where did it drain off to? And does that much water even exist?
Doug Chandler
PSmith9626
There is evidence for a local flood in the black sea area about 9000bc and this
is where the sumerians came from. Cuniform writing has been in western russia
that predates sumeria.
In fact, as it turns out, I will be visiting
that area in the summer to give a series of math lectures at some international
conferences and I will see the sites.
best
penny
rian
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"jimC" <jimc...@pacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:3C939026...@pacbell.net...
All schools do to am extent. Lots of my mailingkids skipped grade 1
(here school is mandatory from 4 years, so we call it Group 3) annd then
go to Highschool without doing groups 8(grade 6). There are some schools
they flock to so there will be 9, 10 and 11 olds in every grade 7
(Bridgeclass 1, there are 2, they are to determine which graduation will
come: low, middel, uni). Except when the go to a catagorical gymnasium
which means, no other schooltypes and latin and greek ffrom grade 7 on.
Feek O'Hanrahan
;)
--
(I had just glanced at the number for speed of sound in steel
when IExplorer did some abominable illegal and probably immoral act
and froze up and expired in a somber and dignified manner leaving
its mortal cousins in the outer darkness stubbing their toes and hoping
to complete an expression of thought for which there is minimal
justification on the battlegrounds of cultural dalliance )
-- tracy
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020317083216...@mb-cb.aol.com...
Cl.Massé
20020315172519...@mb-mb.aol.com...
> Come to american and discover our large subgroup of "fundamentalists"
> who believe the bible literally.
Dear Penny,
The creationists? I can't take into account all the nuts on earth!
> >Never at any time was the historical accuracy required
> >in order to read It and to believe in God.
> It is however required to believe in the bible. If one part is a lie,
> why not the rest?
You are speaking about the Jewish religion. The Christians doesn't
worship a book.
> If you want to believe in a god, you don't need a book.
If you believe in God, you believe He has a word, and His word is in a
book.
Cl.Massé
> Now there's a little context for you about that old time religion and
> the USA.
Is it those nuts or is it just the USA?
PSmith9626
I don't believe in the earth flood thing, but it could be locked in antarctic
ice.
I haven't done the arithmetic.
But to do it easily recall that:
V(R)=4/3 (pi)R^3 for a sphere, and
dV= 4(pi)R^2 dR.
Here dR= 14000f
.R= 4000mi.
best
penny
Prigator
>There is evidence for a local flood in the black sea area about 9000bc
Yes, I am aware of that.
I do not believe there was a local flood that could possibly have covered Mt.
Ararat. The only way the Ark could have travelled was by floating, drifting
without power. To the 14,000 foot level? Think about it.
Doug Chandler
Ray L
Prigator <prig...@aol.comma> wrote in message
news:20020317125925...@mb-fn.aol.com...
Many mountains are still growing. Maybe it landed at the 12,000 foot
mark, and the mountain grew a couple of inches every year.
PSmith9626
As I said, the USA is full of these nuts.
And our president panders to them. They have a good deal of political power.
best
penny
PSmith9626
It isn't the "ark". There is no "ark".
best
penny
> The only way the Ark could have travelled was by floating, drifting
>without power. To the 14,000 foot level? Think about it.
Recall I am not a member of judeo-chrislam and I don't believe in the literal
truth of their mythology.
dave
>> Now there's a little context for you about that old time religion and
>> the USA.
>
>Is it those nuts or is it just the USA?
A little bit of both I suspect.
Catharine Honeyman
I have read several things in magazines, etc. that I trust about the Black
Sea flood and I've only seen one sensational-looking TV show about the
possible site on Mt. Ararat. (It was "Ancient Mysteries" or something like
that.) I also personally know someone involved in the Black Sea expedition
of a couple of years ago. I will believe the Mt. Ararat evidence when I
read about it in National Geographic. I think the Black Sea flood is the
most plausible theory about what led to flood myths.
CINDY SMITH
dave <grum...@onebox.com> writes:
Myths are not lies but profoundly true stories. See above.
> The power of the myth indeed.
> Where does the myth end and reality begin?
In the eternal Trinity.
> Have you read any Joseph Campbell, Cindy?
Yes, and I find him interesting. I have studied the myths of many
religions and find much truth in them. Christ, I believe, is the
fullness of truth just as he is the fullness of God. Most religions
are vague prophetic distortions of the one true God and his Messiah.
> -dave
Feek O'Hanrahan
far as to almost fall out of their head when I say "Christian mythology".
Why is it Greek or Roman "mythology", eventhough to those people the
religions they believed in were as real as Christianity is to their members?
Is it because the Greeks or Romans were silly people believing in a silly
religion? I mean, MULTIPLE gods? How stupid.
--
(I had just glanced at the number for speed of sound in steel
when IExplorer did some abominable illegal and probably immoral act
and froze up and expired in a somber and dignified manner leaving
its mortal cousins in the outer darkness stubbing their toes and hoping
to complete an expression of thought for which there is minimal
justification on the battlegrounds of cultural dalliance )
-- tracy
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020318035926...@mb-fy.aol.com...
CINDY SMITH
prig...@aol.comma (Prigator) writes:
> dave:
The Hebrews thought of heaven as a physical vault, and when the
floodgates of the vault were opened, water fell through in a process
we call "rain." The point of the story is missed when you treat
Biblical myth as though it were history. The point of other stories
are missed when you treat Biblical history as though it were myth.
We should be sensitive to poetic symbol and imagery when reading the
Bible in order to avoid both such temptations.
> Doug Chandler
CINDY SMITH
<clm...@online.fr> writes:
> "PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20020315172519...@mb-mb.aol.com...
>> Come to american and discover our large subgroup of "fundamentalists"
>> who believe the bible literally.
> Dear Penny,
> The creationists? I can't take into account all the nuts on earth!
The Biblical story of Creation is not about how the universe was
created but about _why_ the universe was created. God is love, and
the universe is an expression of God's love. Humans are the crown of
God's Creation because we are made in the spiritual image of God.
>> >Never at any time was the historical accuracy required
>> >in order to read It and to believe in God.
>> It is however required to believe in the bible. If one part is a lie,
>> why not the rest?
Myths are not lies but true statements of faith and morality.
> You are speaking about the Jewish religion. The Christians doesn't
> worship a book.
Some Protestants do worship the Bible.
>> If you want to believe in a god, you don't need a book.
> If you believe in God, you believe He has a word, and His word is in a
> book.
Amen. The Tradition of the Church is the Word of God, and the Bible
is the Word of God because the Bible is part of the Tradition of the
Church.
> ~~~~ %20cl...@free.fr%20 LPF
> Liberty, Equality, Profitability.
--
Prigator
> the History
>> Channel had a show on the search for Noah's Ark. Some think it has been
>> spotted on Mount Ararat at 14,000 feet. At least two different expeditions
>> have brought back pieces of wood carbon dated at 5,000 years.
> The point of the story is missed when you treat
>Biblical myth as though it were history. The point of other stories
>are missed when you treat Biblical history as though it were myth.
What is your take on it, then? Is the Ark history or myth? Or can we tell
the difference just from reading and interpreting the Bible?
If the Ark's physical remains can be found, it will most definitely become
history. My point seems to have been missed: Given that some famous crank
named Noah did construct such a vessel, and even given that there was a local
deluge which floated it, the location the searchers have zeroed in on is quite
impossible.
Of course, some of the details of the story in the Bible are badly distorted.
All the animals on Earth, two by two? Noah would have been astonished when two
okapis showed up. And how did the North American coyotes and western
diamondbacks get there to the launch site? I suspect that Noah was content
with pairs of camels, donkeys, dogs, cattle, etc. from the immediate
neighborhood.
The grain of truth is more likely that the completed, stocked Ark sat there for
years while the flood never came and Noah died a heartbroken loon, but as the
story was passed down through generations it just sounds better if it did get
wet.
Doug Chandler
Tracy Yucikas
a roomfull of the hard-core ... )
remenber reading Bullfinch for hours sitting on cold linoleum
in a small rooom with piles of unsorted washed laundry and
occasional gusts of central heating inflating my shirt positioned
over the floor gril till it got so hot I had to move ... carefreee days
that probably had their own problems ... guess this was
coincidentally about the time when the SUnday school
veneer of *true* mythology began to wear thin, which was not
without its own set of discomforts.
a snake sheds its skin when the old one wears out .. or is it
when the snake "grows" bigger ... not a metamorphosis, but
just an adjustment to a changing world and point of view .. where
none of this really much matters, just an empty skinl let behind ...
takes the snake 5 or 6 hours ... ("what's that in dog-years ?")
--traxcy
"Feek O'Hanrahan" <feek...@XattbiX.XcomX> wrote in message
news:a7534l$1...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Pat Sullivan
> A question for the mathmatically inclined: How much water would it take to
> flood the Earth to raise sea level an additional 14,000 feet? Afterwards,
> where did it drain off to? And does that much water even exist?
>
> Doug Chandler
Hi Doug,
I played around with that idea several years ago. What could cause enough
water to acumulate to a depth of several thousand feet for several months?
Could a celestial event like perhaps a black hole passing over the north
pole draw enough water from the southern hemisphere into the northern
hemisphere to cause such a flood?
Is it possible that such an event could occur without extinguishing most
major categories of life on the earth?
Would'nt such a celestial event leave residual traces, like irregular planet
orbits?, moving planetary magnetic fields?, unusual weather phenomena?
Just a little food for thought.
Later
Pat Sullivan
PT Barnum was right!
dave
>Yes, and I find him interesting. I have studied the myths of many
>religions and find much truth in them. Christ, I believe, is the
>fullness of truth just as he is the fullness of God. Most religions
>are vague prophetic distortions of the one true God and his Messiah.
Most religions are a "distortion" of the one "true god"?
I was hoping for something a little less strident and a little more
informative regarding "myth". You missed the point. SOP.
Cl.Massé
> There is evidence for a local flood in the black sea area about 9000bc
> and this is where the sumerians came from. Cuniform writing has been
> in western russia that predates sumeria.
Dear Penny,
and there is almost the same story in the Mesopotamian mythology.
--
CINDY SMITH
> dear claude,
> As I said, the USA is full of these nuts.
> And our president panders to them. They have a good deal of political power.
I'm glad the religious right has a good deal of political power.
So do many groups. Diversity is what America is all about.
> best
> penny
>>Is it those nuts or is it just the USA?
--
Adina Sobo
>> It is however required to believe in the bible. If one part is a lie,
>> why not the rest?
>
>You are speaking about the Jewish religion. The Christians doesn't
>worship a book.
Neither do the Jews. Indeed, many sects of Jews don't believe that
the Old Testament was divinely inspired, let alone that it is a word-
for-word true account of what happened back in biblical times. Most
believe it to be a combination of allegory and stolen mythology from
other religions. For example, Noah is obviously just a retelling of
Gilgamesh.
- - -Adina
"The fox, when he cannot reach the grapes, says they are not ripe."
-- George Herbert, _Jacula Prudentum_ [1640]
Catharine Honeyman
> a snake sheds its skin when the old one wears out .. or is it
> when the snake "grows" bigger ... not a metamorphosis, but
> just an adjustment to a changing world and point of view .. where
> none of this really much matters, just an empty skinl let behind ...
> takes the snake 5 or 6 hours ... ("what's that in dog-years ?")
Very, very nice analogy.
CINDY SMITH
prig...@aol.comma (Prigator) writes:
> CINDY:
>> the History
>>> Channel had a show on the search for Noah's Ark. Some think it has been
>>> spotted on Mount Ararat at 14,000 feet. At least two different expeditions
>>> have brought back pieces of wood carbon dated at 5,000 years.
>> The point of the story is missed when you treat
>>Biblical myth as though it were history. The point of other stories
>>are missed when you treat Biblical history as though it were myth.
> What is your take on it, then? Is the Ark history or myth? Or can we tell
> the difference just from reading and interpreting the Bible?
I think the priest Leverdierre is right when he says the first 11
chapters of Genesis belong to the literary form myth. The stories are
didactic parables intended to teach moral truth.
This is one of the major differences between Catholics and many
Protestant sects. For Protestants who are Sola Scriptura, the notion
that the Bible is literally true is central to their faith. For
Catholics, the Bible is a library of not only history but didactic
fiction (parables) and moral teachings. Catholics understand that the
Bible can teach moral truths and faith truths from didactic fiction,
just as Jesus told didactic fiction (parables) that if taken literally
would cause the faithful to miss the whole point.
The Hebrews worshiped one God but were influenced by mythical tales of
the ancient world. The story of Creation in Genesis is very late,
post Babylonian Exile. The Jews listened to various stories of
creation among their captors and other peoples, and some said, say,
why don't we have a creation story? So, the Hebrews were inspired by
God to write a Creation tale and a Flood tale very similar to the
tales of other peoples but with a Jewish twist. Inspired editors put
these stories together and edited them, resulting in Genesis and other
books of the Torah. God blessed these stories because they accurately
taught Tradition given to the Chosen, a Tradition filled not only with
didactic fiction tales of faith and morals and character, but with
rules for living and obeying God, and also sacred history (not to be
confused with myth). The reason why the Church selected certain texts
to be declared the Word of God was because these texts accurately
reflected the Tradition of God given to the Catholic Church. The Jews
at Jamnia/Yavneh and Alexandria declared the Old Testament to be the
Word of God for similar reasons (Jews believe the whole of Tradition
was given to Moses along with the Ten Commandments). So, Jews have
Tradition and Christians have Tradition. Tradition is the Word of
God, and the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible is part of the
Tradition of the Catholic Church. Again, to interpret the Bible
literally often misses the point.
> If the Ark's physical remains can be found, it will most definitely become
> history. My point seems to have been missed: Given that some famous crank
> named Noah did construct such a vessel, and even given that there was a local
> deluge which floated it, the location the searchers have zeroed in on is quite
> impossible.
The story of Noah is probably a myth influenced by other myths of the
ancient world, but God blessed the story of Noah and the Flood because
it accurately reflects faith and morals and teaches that God makes and
fulfills his promises.
> Of course, some of the details of the story in the Bible are badly distorted.
> All the animals on Earth, two by two? Noah would have been astonished
> when two
> okapis showed up. And how did the North American coyotes and western
> diamondbacks get there to the launch site? I suspect that Noah was content
> with pairs of camels, donkeys, dogs, cattle, etc. from the immediate
> neighborhood.
If Noah were wise,
He would have swatted those two flies :-).
God called the animals to the Ark, and they obeyed their Creator.
This is an example of the didactic truth that God is Lord of all,
including human beings and animals and the weather, etc.
> The grain of truth is more likely that the completed, stocked Ark sat
> there for
> years while the flood never came and Noah died a heartbroken loon, but as the
> story was passed down through generations it just sounds better if it did get
> wet.
There may well have been a worldwide flood, and the Genesis narrative
tells about it in a way that reflects religious truth. Other flood
narratives were not accepted as the Word of God because they did not
reflect the religious truth that God alone is sovereign. God blessed
the stories that teach accurately about the nature of God. This can
be done with sacred history and sacred myth.
Adina Sobo
<cat...@spamcop.net> writes:
>Tracy Yucikas wrote:
>
>
>> a snake sheds its skin when the old one wears out .. or is it
>> when the snake "grows" bigger ... not a metamorphosis, but
>> just an adjustment to a changing world and point of view .. where
>> none of this really much matters, just an empty skinl let behind ...
>> takes the snake 5 or 6 hours ... ("what's that in dog-years ?")
>
>
>Very, very nice analogy.
Oh.... and I was all set with an informative post about shed skins in
snakes, lizards, humans, and such...
- - -A person who is way too literal
CINDY SMITH
dave <grum...@onebox.com> writes:
> On 18 Mar 2002 11:27:58 -0600, c...@cygnus.5sc.net (CINDY SMITH) wrote:
>>Yes, and I find him interesting. I have studied the myths of many
>>religions and find much truth in them. Christ, I believe, is the
>>fullness of truth just as he is the fullness of God. Most religions
>>are vague prophetic distortions of the one true God and his Messiah.
> Most religions are a "distortion" of the one "true god"?
Yes.
> I was hoping for something a little less strident and a little more
> informative regarding "myth". You missed the point. SOP.
Please tell me what the point is, and I'll strive to grab hold of it.
I see much syncretism. Do you think syncretism doesn't occur?
rian
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"CINDY SMITH" <c...@cygnus.5sc.net> schreef in bericht
news:NE$4FT6...@cygnus.5sc.net...
rian
get very thick. If you are not prone to scrub every day, you cannot get
if off, so much. Just put some babylotion on, and after an hour you can
rub it off with a washcloth.
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"Adina Sobo" <adi...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20020319094239...@mb-bk.aol.com...
Richard A. Gutteling
>In article <20020318195428...@mb-de.aol.com>,
>prig...@aol.comma (Prigator) writes:
>> CINDY:
>If Noah were wise,
>He would have swatted those two flies :-).
He'd have done us a real favour had he just swatted those two
mosquitos :-p
And the reason the dinosaurs became extinct: Noah saw them coming to
the Ark and thought: "Well, I'd better close the door now, for all
these heavy animals will surely sink my ship even before it's afloat".
Or, the version with a little more humour: Noah saw the dinosaurs
coming to the Ark and thought: "Man, those are ugly, I bet the Lord
doesn't mind when I leave them behind".
Richard.
-----------------------------------------------------
Richard A. Gutteling Rich...@dds.nl
-----------------------------------------------------
Cl.Massé
Dear Penny,
Do you believe in the myth of the warming of the earth? Reportedly, we
would be flooded by the melting of the Antarctic ice. I guess there is
much more truth in the Bible than in those charlatan's frenzy.
PSmith9626
Just wait until they start making laws to put you--- a catholic-- into prison.
Those fundies of the religous right are NO friends of yours, CINDY.
best
penny
They will start by restricting your freedom ect., just as the Nazi's did for
the jews.
Cl.Massé
> As I said, the USA is full of these nuts.
> And our president panders to them. They have a good deal of political
> power.
Dear Penny,
Yes, power, that was what I was thinking about. It's not a matter of
faith but of power. The USers are power freaks.
rian
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"Richard A. Gutteling" <rich...@dds.nl> schreef in bericht
news:4aoe9uss7n4i63mpk...@4ax.com...
CINDY SMITH
psmit...@aol.com (PSmith9626) writes:
> dear cindy,
> Just wait until they start making laws to put you--- a catholic-- into prison.
> Those fundies of the religous right are NO friends of yours, CINDY.
The religious right in America supports religious freedom, unlike
liberals who want to restrict religious freedom. Liberal fanatics are
more interested in freedom from religion than in freedom of religion.
When I was in elementary school, the Supreme Court ruling was
announced in my third grade class that we could no longer pray grace
before meals. I prayed grace anyway. Once, when I was chosen to lead
the class in prayer, I prayed to the Virgin Mary, to the great upset
of the teacher. I told the principal that student-led prayers could
be prayers to anyone, including Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Because of me, the principal forbade student-led prayers at our
school. I think schools should allow student-led prayer to anyone.
YMMV.
> best
> penny
> They will start by restricting your freedom ect., just as the Nazi's did for
> the jews.
My religious freedom has already been restricted by liberal fanatics
who hate religion in general. Conservatives want to expand my
religious freedom. The KKK can meet on public school campuses but
Christian prayer-groups cannot. To my mind, this is unconstitutional.
Any lawful group should be allowed to meet on campus, including
religious groups. You should be concerned, Penny, that pagan groups
are not allowed to meet on public school campuses either.
>>I'm glad the religious right has a good deal of political power.
>>So do many groups. Diversity is what America is all about.
--
Catharine Honeyman
> Do: if humans are radiated the skin will, in around 4 weeks afterwards
> get very thick. If you are not prone to scrub every day, you cannot get
> if off, so much. Just put some babylotion on, and after an hour you can
> rub it off with a washcloth.
I am prone to scrubbing *twice* a day, with an evil Japanese washcloth, and
my radiation-induced fibrosis shows no signs of going away. You're
supposed to be able to *scrub* it off? How?
Catharine Honeyman
> Or, the version with a little more humour: Noah saw the dinosaurs
> coming to the Ark and thought: "Man, those are ugly, I bet the Lord
> doesn't mind when I leave them behind".
Hmm. I think yer average pangolin is uglier than many dinosaurs.
I see that someone is making an expensive-looking movie (or TV show?) of
"Dinotopia." I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad.
Chris
"CINDY SMITH" <c...@cygnus.5sc.net> wrote in message
news:AXYr2v...@cygnus.5sc.net...
> In article <a72ro1$i...@chicago.us.mensa.org>, "Cl.Massé"
> <clm...@online.fr> writes:
>
> > "PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> > 20020315172519...@mb-mb.aol.com...
> > worship a book.
>
> Some Protestants do worship the Bible.
In their school, my niece and nephew pledge allegiance to the Bible right
after they do so to the flag and to the christian flag. It's truly
stomach-turning to watch.
Chris
Chris
> >>"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical ...
> Myths are not lies but profoundly true stories. See above.
So, Cindy, I take it you believe then that the Earth is flat and the stars
are hanging from the thin metal dome that covers us and suports the waters
of the heavens?
While the Bible may contain many truths, it also contains many lies. Please
read it sometime and I'm sure you will find a few yourself.
By the way, you need not stop with the first eleven chapters of Genesis.
The entire tome is riddled with errors.
Chris
PSmith9626
I am. This is always due to christian intolerance in my experience.
best
penny
The liberals--including the christian liberals such as the unitarian church (
with which wicca is now affiliated!!) do fight for us.
The fundies call us satanists.
p.s. I am not wiccian though. I am traditional and my groups NEVER would dream
of meeting in a public place like a public school.
We have been burned before. Your religion has a history.
>Penny, that pagan groups
>are not allowed to meet on public school campuses either.
See above.
" In my opinion Witchcraft is not a religion and is not protected under the US
constitution"--Gov George W BUSH
( after the christian fundies protested the acceptance of a wiccian group at a
texas army fort as satanic.)
Pat Sullivan
> On 17 Mar 2002 17:12:04 -0600, "Cl.Massé" <clm...@online.fr> wrote:
>
> >> Now there's a little context for you about that old time religion and
> >> the USA.
> >
> >Is it those nuts or is it just the USA?
>
>
> -dave
Hmmmmm. I guess the fundamental question here is "Where should freedom
of
religion stop?" Where should your right to practice your religion be
constrained so that my right to NOT practice your religion (or any
religion)
will be respected?
Should any religion be supported by tax dollars? Should government
facilities
be made available to religious groups? Should any religious
organization
be restricted from participating in politics? (I think any religious
organization which mainly functions as a political machine should have
it's
tax exempt status revoked.)
More rambling, please.
Later good people,
PSmith9626
Theirs --not yours.
You-- as a catholic-- are as much their enemy ( in their view) as any pagan..
Just pray they never get enough power, because they won't be so ecumenical
if they rule.
There is a history here.
best
penny
>The religious right in America supports religious freedom, unlike
>liberals who want to restrict religious freedom.
You don't get it do you? The liberals want to protect the religious freedom of
those who don't buy into your belief system from people who would ram it down
their throats.
This includes atheists, hindus, buddhists and wiccians.
I lived in texas and I can assure you that the fundies are not pro-catholic.
Far from it.
>The religious right in America supports religious freedom, unlike
>liberals who want to restrict religious freedom.
You are very naive. Pray for enlightenment
and protection.
slidesho
Bible and a Christian Flag? Don't think that I have ever seen a Christian
flag, Ever............
No one should be "forced" to do this in this country. You say it's stomach
turning to watch. If you are ever there watching, why do you?
slide
PSmith9626
No. I believe that climate is a complex,coupled nonlinear system and it is not
clear that any warming trend will continue.
In the 1200's europe was getting warmer --until the clouds came
up--reflected more sunlight-- and cooled things quickly into the "little ice
age one" that lasted for five hundred years.
best
penny
>Do you believe in the myth of the warming of the earth?
no.
>Reportedly, we
>would be flooded by the melting of the Antarctic ice.
Some coastal cities would be flooded. New York City and London , for example.
>I guess there is
>much more truth in the Bible than in those charlatan's frenzy.
Which doesn't mean much.
best
penny
By the way, I have my own method to see if we are in a local warming trend. As
you may recall from thermodynamics class, the temperature in a cavern at any
time is the mean average temperature over a year above the cavern. Most tourist
caverns have a record of the temperature over many years.
Take a look.
Cl.Massé
NYXvAr...@cygnus.5sc.net...
> I'm glad the religious right has a good deal of political power.
> So do many groups. Diversity is what America is all about.
Wouldn't be better with a pinch of left-wing? For diversity, rather
think of Europe.
Cl.Massé
a78r5t$uh0$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> So, Cindy, I take it you believe then that the Earth is flat and the
stars
> are hanging from the thin metal dome that covers us and suports the
waters
> of the heavens?
>
> While the Bible may contain many truths, it also contains many lies.
Please
> read it sometime and I'm sure you will find a few yourself.
>
> By the way, you need not stop with the first eleven chapters of
Genesis.
> The entire tome is riddled with errors.
Your post is riddled with errors, there is not a single word of French.
I had to switch off my spell checker.
rian
After 4 weeks the skin is all thick and wrinkly. Then apply moisurising
lotion, let it soak for a while and then rub with your hand. The skin
will come off in rolls! You can also use a terrycloth.
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"Catharine Honeyman" <cat...@spamcop.net> schreef in bericht
news:20020319172744.313$v...@newsreader.com...
slidesho
"Chris" <www...@infi.net> wrote in message
news:a78r5t$uh0$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> "CINDY SMITH" <c...@cygnus.5sc.net> wrote in message
> news:veUE0O...@cygnus.5sc.net...
> > >>"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical ...
> > Myths are not lies but profoundly true stories. See above.
>
> So, Cindy, I take it you believe then that the Earth is flat and the stars
> are hanging from the thin metal dome that covers us and suports the waters
> of the heavens?
Hardly a fair assumption. I've read it several times through as required
reading in College (don't ask how long ago, but I think it's still the same
Bible), and found the lies, found the errors, found the myths, and found
"some" truths, and some decent examples of how to live in a compassionate
way. I certainly don't take it literally. Does this mean that I am stupid
enough to believe that the world is flat? I would "guess" that Cindy has
also read it through, and is entitled to her own interpretation of it.
Jesus didn't seem to be such a baaaaaad character, even if you don't think
he is your Messiah.
Folks are as free to believe in their religion, at least here in the USA, as
you are not to, without other folks assuming and exclaiming that they are
idiots.
slide
Cl.Massé
20020320090501...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> " In my opinion Witchcraft is not a religion and is not protected
under the US
> constitution"--Gov George W BUSH
Dear Penny,
If state and religion are separated, the government has not to give a
decision on whether something is a religion or not. It can only say if
its activity break the law or not. That is sufficient to distinguish
between a religion and a sect.
jimC
>
> In article <a72ro1$i...@chicago.us.mensa.org>, "Cl.Massé" <clm...@online.fr>
> writes:
>
> >> why not the rest?
> >
> >You are speaking about the Jewish religion. The Christians doesn't
> >worship a book.
>
> the Old Testament was divinely inspired, let alone that it is a word-
> for-word true account of what happened back in biblical times. Most
> believe it to be a combination of allegory and stolen mythology from
> other religions. For example, Noah is obviously just a retelling of
> Gilgamesh.
I read the shorter version of the Gilgamesh Epic several years ago.
There can't be much doubt about its retelling in the form of the Noah
allegory with the monotheistic enhancement. Gilgamesh had several
gods with whom to contend.
It is commonly claimed that Adam and Eve are similarly lifted from
Babylonian lore that was known to pre-Exile Jews. I wonder if
anybody knows a reference to a specific translation. Or is
it time for me to take up reading cuneiform?
jimC
--
jimC
http://www.geocities.com/jimcolli92625/
Official Web pages of the Crystal Cove Lunchtime Hikers. Updated 18 Mar 02
12:15 pm, PST. We reclaim unused real estate and spot a GeoCities server
bug with appended JavaScript which plays havoc when viewed with IE 5 using
Windows 2000.
CINDY SMITH
<clm...@online.fr> writes:
> "PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20020320090501...@mb-ct.aol.com...
>> " In my opinion Witchcraft is not a religion and is not protected
> under the US
>> constitution"--Gov George W BUSH
> Dear Penny,
> If state and religion are separated, the government has not to give a
> decision on whether something is a religion or not. It can only say if
> its activity break the law or not. That is sufficient to distinguish
> between a religion and a sect.
> Liberty, Equality, Profitability.
When I was at Georgia Tech, I had a friend named Steve who, with four
other friends, rented a building to meet in once a month to play
cards, but he claimed it was a religious meeting because he was a
member of a religion to which only he and his four friends belong to,
and he took off the cost of the building on his taxes. We used to
call him "Saint Steve." Abuses like this are the reason why the IRS
and other agencies require today more than just a group of boys
saying, "This is our religion" to be able to take deductions. YMMV.
PSmith9626
I seem to recall that the french were power freaks when they had the empires.
I also seem to recall some fairly long and bloody christian religous wars
in france, the mass murder of the Albenasians, the mass murder of the Knights
templar etc.
best
penny
>It's not a matter of
>faith but of power. The USers are power freaks.
What was Napoleon?
" L'etat cest moi."--Louis 14.
CINDY SMITH
<www...@infi.net> writes:
> "CINDY SMITH" <c...@cygnus.5sc.net> wrote in message
> news:veUE0O...@cygnus.5sc.net...
>> >>"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical ...
>> Myths are not lies but profoundly true stories. See above.
> So, Cindy, I take it you believe then that the Earth is flat and the stars
> are hanging from the thin metal dome that covers us and suports the waters
> of the heavens?
If you think I believe that, you have obviously not been reading my
posts. Scripture often uses popular expressions that do not
necessarily reflect the knowledge of the community. A modern example
that comes to mind is "sunrise" and "sunset" : I know of non one who
believes that the sun literally rises; most people I know recognize
that the earth revolves around the sun, but the expressions "sunrise"
and "sunset" are still common. The Bible speaks of the four corners
of the earth, but that doesn't mean the ancients thought the world was
flat; indeed, there is considerable evidence that the ancients knew
the world was round, despite popular untrue tales about Columbus. The
idea that water fell through the sluicegates of heaven is probably a
popular expression that is not meant to be understood literally.
> While the Bible may contain many truths, it also contains many lies. Please
> read it sometime and I'm sure you will find a few yourself.
The Bible contains scientific errors because the Bible is not a
science textbook; the Bible contains historical errors because the
Bible is not a history textbook; the Bible contains mathematical
errors because the Bible is not a math textbook. The Bible contains
_no_ theological errors because the Bible _is_ a theology textbook.
> By the way, you need not stop with the first eleven chapters of Genesis.
> The entire tome is riddled with errors.
See above.
> Chris
PSmith9626
As long as the other students can refuse.
If a satanist student wished to lead a prayer to lucifer would you want your
child to participate? What if it were a hindu or a wiccian child leading?
As a pagan child, I was forced into school prayers to your "god" and was
threatened with expulsion if I refused. I did
refuse and we won the court case.
Relgious freedom has to hold for everyone --even satanists---or it is an
empty phrase.
best
penny
slidesho
"Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:5jth9u8oms9nnfss2...@4ax.com...
slide wrote:
> >Folks are as free to believe in their religion, at least here in the USA,
as
> >you are not to, without other folks assuming and exclaiming that they are
> >idiots.
Mary wrote:
> The way are Constitution reads, people are also free to exclaim that
> others are idiots.
After thinking about this one, I realized that I had "one" more thing to
say. Yes, it's true that people are free to exclaim that others are idiots,
but there are often consequences that result from this type of exclamation.
Oh, and I don't mean physical, although when one calls another an idiot (or
anything else for that matter) one should realize that not all will just
"take it", at least out of the "relative" safety of an NG. Statements to
that effect are certainly easier to make to a "cyber" person, without eye
contact. And there are those that "reach out" from this cyber world and try
to "touch someone" in the real world, as I learned in another NG. There are
always consequences though, for a lack of respect, whether it demeans the
aggressor for taking the action, or the object of the aggression.
Ultimately neither ends up a winner.
Frankly, I just got a little irritated at the assumption that Cindy's
elevator didn't go to the top floor, just because she had the guts to
proclaim her own beliefs in spite of often overwhelming resistance. I
respect someone that can stand up for what they think is right, against all
others, if need be. I'm a Christian, but I'm no preacher, and I'll not
shove my beliefs down anyone's throat. I've seen the reception that
Christians get here. I do however, reserve my right to stand up for what I
think is right, even if it is for someone else.
I've got that same respect for you Mary. I've seen you stand up for what
you believe here, often against multiple cyber persons, and I respect that.
So, with that in mind, maybe you won't be upset with me for standing up
here. I'm not standing up against you, just for someone else, or more
accurately, for an ideal.
slide
slidesho
No it was not.
> >Folks are as free to believe in their religion, at least here in the USA,
as
> >you are not to, without other folks assuming and exclaiming that they are
> >idiots.
>
> The way are Constitution reads, people are also free to exclaim that
> others are idiots.
True, as I am free to exclaim that I don't think that it is very nice.
Appreciate the point on the Constitution though. It also allows me to
exclaim how "I" feel about it.
slide
Feek O'Hanrahan
Chris
"slidesho" <slid...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7ai4u$gtq$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> "Chris" <www...@infi.net> wrote in message
> news:a78r5t$uh0$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> >
> > "CINDY SMITH" <c...@cygnus.5sc.net> wrote in message
> > news:veUE0O...@cygnus.5sc.net...
> > > >>"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical
...
> > > Myths are not lies but profoundly true stories. See above.
> >
> > So, Cindy, I take it you believe then that the Earth is flat and the
stars
> > are hanging from the thin metal dome that covers us and suports the
waters
> > of the heavens?
>
> Hardly a fair assumption.
Sorry, I've now read some of Cindy's other posts and better understand her
position. She freely admits the Bible is not historically accurate. Thus I
do not understand why she is on the opposite side of this argument.
My new question is: If you can see that christian mythology is not that
different from Sumerian/Babylonian/Whatever mythology which you readily
dismiss, and you admit that the bible is not historically, scientifically,
or mathematically accurate, why do you think it is metaphysically accurate?
Chris
rian
Bean= boon in Dutch, apart = apart
Sydney comes into a bar. The barman puts a pile of beans on the bar and
puts one on the side of it. He asks? what is this?
Nobody knows, so he tells: Bonaparte HAHAHA, everybody laughs at the
joke.
Sydney drinks some more Heineken, more than is good for him and goes
home.
His wife is cross and he tries to make her laugh again:
wife, where are the beans?
Here, Sid
He puts some in a pile, sets one aside and asks
And what is this?
Wife admits being baffled
Sydney said: Napoleon!
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"Feek O'Hanrahan" <feek...@XattbiX.XcomX> schreef in bericht
news:a7bitc$j...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
PSmith9626
True, he was. But, he lead the french imperialists.
best
penny
>> What was Napoleon?
>
>Corsican
Yup.
Feek O'Hanrahan
> dear feek,
> True, he was. But, he lead the french imperialists.
Right, he went to school in France and fell in love with it.
> best
> penny
>
> >> What was Napoleon?
> >
> >Corsican
>
> Yup.
For some reason I thought he was Austrian. The web is such a wonderful
place. :)
Chris
> Where do they require this in public school in the USA? Allegience to the
> Bible and a Christian Flag? Don't think that I have ever seen a Christian
> flag, Ever............
It's their fundie private school run by their Baptist church. Seems to me
that these would qualify as false idols. When I was a kid, my folks were in
a different fundie church (the Church of Christ) that said we could not have
a Xmas tree, presents and the like for they were tantamount to worshipping
false idols. (Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses, as I understand.) We did
not have traditional hymnals either, for songs that mentioned the lord had
no basis in scripture. Anyway, I'm sure that that church would not tolerate
pledging allegiance to a flag and a book, but apparently this one does.
>
> No one should be "forced" to do this in this country. You say it's
stomach
> turning to watch. If you are ever there watching, why do you?
>
> slide
I went down to see my niece's kindergarten graduation. Maybe I don't
approve of her parents' choice, but I won't take it out on the kid. When
she's older, perhaps I'll have a discussion with her...
Chris
CINDY SMITH
<www...@infi.net> writes:
>> > "CINDY SMITH" <c...@cygnus.5sc.net> wrote in message
>> > news:veUE0O...@cygnus.5sc.net...
>> > > >>"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical
>> > > Myths are not lies but profoundly true stories. See above.
[snip]
> Sorry, I've now read some of Cindy's other posts and better understand her
> position. She freely admits the Bible is not historically accurate. Thus I
> do not understand why she is on the opposite side of this argument.
What do you mean I'm on the opposite side of this argument? If you
mean I believe the Bible is the Word of God, then I'm on God's side.
> My new question is: If you can see that christian mythology is not that
> different from Sumerian/Babylonian/Whatever mythology which you readily
> dismiss, and you admit that the bible is not historically, scientifically,
> or mathematically accurate, why do you think it is metaphysically accurate?
The Bible was influenced by other myths of the ancient world but is
the Word of God because these myths were retold in a Judeo-Christian
way that reveals divine truth. The Tradition of the Church is the
Word of God, and the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible is
part of the Tradition of the Catholic Church. Therefore, I believe
the Bible is theologically accurate because the Catholic Church so
teaches. As Saint Augustine once wrote, were it not for the authority
of the Church, I would not believe the Bible.
I have children, and often only those who have children understand
this: When my children tell me the same story with slightly different
details, I believe them because two or more people do not see events
in exactly the same way. When my children's stories match up exactly,
I'm suspicious that they've cooked up something. The stories in the
Bible contain stories that sometimes differ from one another, and
these differences in details make me believe that the stories are
true because if the stories were exactly the same I would be
suspicious that the stories were made up.
Again, I believe the Bible is the Word of God because the Catholic
Church guided by the Holy Spirit teaches that the Bible is the Word of
God, and I believe the Church has the authority granted it by Christ
to make such a declaration. Furthermore, the Catholic Church
maintains the Apostolic Succession which gives the Church the
authority to authoritatively teach about faith and morals infallibly.
I trust Jesus because I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church
which Jesus founded.
Does that answer your question?
> Chris
Yours in Christ,
Cl.Massé
> No. I believe that climate is a complex,coupled nonlinear system and
> it is not clear that any warming trend will continue.
> In the 1200's europe was getting warmer --until the clouds came
> up--reflected more sunlight-- and cooled things quickly into the
> "little ice age one" that lasted for five hundred years.
It was at that time there was the witch hunting. Now, it isn't the
witches, but the carbon dioxide.
A wing beating of a butterfly in Australia can trigger a hurricane in
the Azores. After that, we are said that so and so will happen. Gazing
at the stars must not be less sure.
> >I guess there is
> >much more truth in the Bible than in those charlatan's frenzy.
> Which doesn't mean much.
We know very little in general, be it in science or religion.
Ray L
> When I was at Georgia Tech, I had a friend named Steve who, with four
> other friends, rented a building to meet in once a month to play
> cards, but he claimed it was a religious meeting because he was a
> member of a religion to which only he and his four friends belong to,
> and he took off the cost of the building on his taxes. We used to
> call him "Saint Steve." Abuses like this are the reason why the IRS
> and other agencies require today more than just a group of boys
> saying, "This is our religion" to be able to take deductions. YMMV.
He must have been a good card player to have to worry about
income tax considerations after a card game. :)
dave
>You are very naive. Pray for enlightenment
>and protection.
Penny, you're speaking to someone who thinks Bush is a great man.
Obviously, there is a disconnect from reality at work here.
-dave
"I am personally acquainted with hundreds of
journalists, and the opinion of the majority
of them are not worth tuppence, but when they
speak in print it is the newspaper that is talking
and then their utterances shake the community
like the thunders of prophecy." -- Mark Twain, 1873
Doc Coyote
I should keep my nose out of things which aren't my business.
Nevertheless...
CINDY SMITH wrote:
<snip>
> Again, I believe the Bible is the Word of God because the Catholic
> Church guided by the Holy Spirit teaches that the Bible is the Word of
> God, and I believe the Church has the authority granted it by Christ
> to make such a declaration. Furthermore, the Catholic Church
> maintains the Apostolic Succession which gives the Church the
> authority to authoritatively teach about faith and morals infallibly.
> I trust Jesus because I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church
> which Jesus founded.
>
> Does that answer your question?
<snip>
When I haven't eaten for a while I get a little woozy, and I haven't had
dinner yet.
I bring this up because I'm not usually slow...
It looks to me like you're saying you believe the Bible is the Word of God
(and therefore undeniably "True" for a large value of "Trueness") because:
1. The Catholic Church say's it is.
2. The Church has the authority to say/confirm it is the Word of God because
Christ said they did.
3. The Church has something called the Apostolic Succession which gives them
the authority to teach infallibly.
Is this correct? As I said, I feel a bit slow right now.
- Max Hufnagel
Chris
> >> > > >>"The first eleven chapters of Genesis are much closer to mythical
> >> > > Myths are not lies but profoundly true stories. See above.
her
> > position. She freely admits the Bible is not historically accurate.
Thus I
> > do not understand why she is on the opposite side of this argument.
>
> What do you mean I'm on the opposite side of this argument?
This thread is about whether the bible is historically inaccurate. You have
been defending it, while simultaneously admitting it is not.
> > My new question is: If you can see that christian mythology is not that
> > different from Sumerian/Babylonian/Whatever mythology which you readily
> > dismiss, and you admit that the bible is not historically,
scientifically,
> > or mathematically accurate, why do you think it is metaphysically
accurate?
>
> The Bible was influenced by other myths of the ancient world but is
> the Word of God because these myths were retold in a Judeo-Christian
> way that reveals divine truth. The Tradition of the Church is the
> Word of God, and the Bible is the Word of God because the Bible is
> part of the Tradition of the Catholic Church. Therefore, I believe
> the Bible is theologically accurate because the Catholic Church so
> teaches. As Saint Augustine once wrote, were it not for the authority
> of the Church, I would not believe the Bible.
St.Augustine was being facetious. You cannot use the circular argument that
the bible is true because the catholic church says so, the church is true
because Jesus says so, and Jesus is true because the bible says so. (Well,
you can..., but you look bad in so doing.)
The tradition of the catholic church is to stifle the truth to keep it's
power over the ignorant. Many rulers have realized this and exploited it to
their benefit. The catholic church has been one of the most powerful tools
at their discretion. Do you not think St.Augustine valued his life enough
not to be branded a heretic?
> When my children tell me the same story with slightly different
> details, I believe them because two or more people do not see events
> in exactly the same way. When my children's stories match up exactly,
> I'm suspicious that they've cooked up something. The stories in the
> Bible contain stories that sometimes differ from one another, and
> these differences in details make me believe that the stories are
> true because if the stories were exactly the same I would be
> suspicious that the stories were made up.
So, after saying you don't believe the historically inaccurate stories of
the bible, now you DO believe them because they contradict each other???
More likely they were the result of an even earlier attempt to control the
people by including two stories to pacify the faction that each represented.
The dual stories of creation were not the result of two different viewpoints
as there would be nobody there to view it! (Unless maybe god is
schizophrenic and each of his personalities related a different creation
myth :-)
> Does that answer your question?
Yes, now I understand how you have been manipulated to believe as you do.
It is obvious you have given this some thought. I sincerely hope you can
give it a little more effort and see through the lies the church has fed
you. Please see the bible for what it is: an ancient people's attempt to
explain the unknown augmented by egomaniacs' desire to control their
populaces.
Yours in Truth,
Chris
Joseph
Joseph
CINDY SMITH wrote:
>
<SNIP>
> > Have you read any Joseph Campbell, Cindy?
>
> Yes, and I find him interesting. I have studied the myths of many
> religions and find much truth in them. Christ, I believe, is the
> fullness of truth just as he is the fullness of God. Most religions
> are vague prophetic distortions of the one true God and his Messiah.
>
This is a nice point to interject, that this is where i found
christianity to be lacking. Don't get me wrong, it was over a
thousand years ahead of its time (in some ways). It is still poorly
understood by most. But better IS available, even from humanist
sources, also from old Bharat (India's precursors) teachings.
> > -dave
CINDY SMITH
"Doc Coyote" <drco...@pacbell.net> writes:
> I should keep my nose out of things which aren't my business.
> Nevertheless...
Salvation is everyone's business.
> CINDY SMITH wrote:
> <snip>
>> Again, I believe the Bible is the Word of God because the Catholic
>> Church guided by the Holy Spirit teaches that the Bible is the Word of
>> God, and I believe the Church has the authority granted it by Christ
>> to make such a declaration. Furthermore, the Catholic Church
>> maintains the Apostolic Succession which gives the Church the
>> authority to authoritatively teach about faith and morals infallibly.
>> I trust Jesus because I believe the teachings of the Catholic Church
>> which Jesus founded.
>> Does that answer your question?
> <snip>
> When I haven't eaten for a while I get a little woozy, and I haven't had
> dinner yet.
> I bring this up because I'm not usually slow...
> It looks to me like you're saying you believe the Bible is the Word of God
> (and therefore undeniably "True" for a large value of "Trueness") because:
> 1. The Catholic Church say's it is.
Right.
> 2. The Church has the authority to say/confirm it is the Word of God because
> Christ said they did.
Right.
> 3. The Church has something called the Apostolic Succession which gives them
> the authority to teach infallibly.
Right.
> Is this correct? As I said, I feel a bit slow right now.
Yes, this is correct. Scripture has authority because the Catholic
Church has the authority granted by Christ and inspired by the Holy
Spirit with the approval of God the Father to declare that Scripture
has authority and is the Word of God. The Tradition of the Catholic
Church is the Word of God, and the Bible is the Word of God because
the Bible is part of the Tradition of the Catholic Church.
We believe as Americans that the Constitution is the Supreme Law of
the Land because the people of the individual states voted on it and
agreed to it by a majority of the states. Whether or not laws are
Constitutional depends on the formal declarations of the Supreme Court
whose Justices are the ultimate arbiters of Constitutional decisions
in this country because the Supreme Court says so. The Constitution
itself does not say the Supreme Court has the authority to declare
laws Constitutional or unConstitutional, but the Justices of the
Supreme Court have interpreted the Constitution to mean that the
Justice of the Supreme Court do have such authority. In essence, the
Constitution means whatever the Supreme Court says it means.
The Catholic Church rarely gives official infallible interpretations
of Scripture. The Holy Spirit guides the Catholic Church to prevent
the Church from making errors in matters of faith and morals. We can
only pray that the Holy Spirit guides the Justices of the Supreme
Court to make just decisions. However, the Justices are not required,
despite their name, to make just decisions but only Constitutional
decisions. For example, the Supreme Court once issued a ruling about
New York rent controls in which the Court said that the laws regarding
rent controls in New York were abominably stupid and anti-capitalist,
but the laws were nonetheless Constitutional. It isn't the job of the
Supreme Court to make null and void laws that are stupid or communist
or unjust but only to make null and void laws that are unConstitutional.
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, does have a duty to preach the
Gospel, to preach truth, and to teach infallibly about faith and
morals. What is against the teachings of Scripture and Tradition is
morally wrong and faithless, and the Church's job is to make this
known.
> - Max Hufnagel
Cl.Massé
ao0i9uc85au9vj2t2...@4ax.com...
> That does not follow. In order for a State to separate itself from
> religion, then it must know what is "a religion." Furthermore, basic
> rights extend against discrimination base on "race, religion, national
> origins, etc."
Originally, it was the separation of state and *church*. State must
know what is a religion only if it mixes with it.
But in the USA, state and religion aren't separated since there are
subsides for religious communities.
Mary Dwyer Wolfe
>"Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> a écrit dans le message news:
>ao0i9uc85au9vj2t2...@4ax.com...
>
> > That does not follow. In order for a State to separate itself from
> > religion, then it must know what is "a religion." Furthermore, basic
> > rights extend against discrimination base on "race, religion, national
> > origins, etc."
>
>Originally, it was the separation of state and *church*. State must
>know what is a religion only if it mixes with it.
No difference "church" or "religion". To stay separate the State must know
want religion is.
>But in the USA, state and religion aren't separated since there are
>subsides for religious communities.
You really have very little understanding about the USA (as evidenced in
your posts). I don't know much about France's government, so I don't talk
about it. Perhaps you should stick to what you know. Often you are not
understandable perhaps because English is not your first language -- I
can't tell for sure.
Yes in the USA, Church and State are separate. Neither "church" nor
"religion" make nor enforce the laws of the land as that is the job of the
State. The State does not declare a religion nor church for the people of
the state. The point of the Constitution was NOT to have a "Church of
American" as there was a "Church of England" intertwined with the State
prior to the writing of our Constitution.
I know of no laws granting specific "subsidies" for religions
groups. Sometimes religious groups qualify as non-profit organizations,
and thus are exempt from some taxation. Such subsidies have nothing to do
with "separation of Church and State."
Mary
Feek O'Hanrahan
"Cl.Massé" <clm...@online.fr> wrote in message
news:3c9b7a52$0$16252$626a...@news.free.fr...
> "Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> a écrit dans le message news:
> ao0i9uc85au9vj2t2...@4ax.com...
>
> > That does not follow. In order for a State to separate itself from
> > religion, then it must know what is "a religion." Furthermore, basic
> > rights extend against discrimination base on "race, religion, national
> > origins, etc."
>
> Originally, it was the separation of state and *church*. State must
> know what is a religion only if it mixes with it.
> But in the USA, state and religion aren't separated since there are
> subsides for religious communities.
Yes, but any religion can get a subsidy from the government. It is wrong in
our government to hold one religion above all others, not to help all
religions. That people see government helping all religions as violating the
first amendment is one of the big misconceptions in this country. The first
amendment only says that the state cannot establish a religion, nor can it
prohibit free exercise of any religion.
Just like Dubya can say "I'm a Christian", just as long as he doesn't start
making laws that say noone else can practice a religion OTHER than
Christianity. As a matter of fact, as he is a citizen of the US, by saying
that he is a Christian, he is exercising his first amendment rights.
Cl.Massé
20020320090749...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> I seem to recall that the french were power freaks when they had the
> empires.
No. It was Napoléon. Napoléon made a coup, he wasn't democratically
elected, although it was after the Révolution.
> I also seem to recall some fairly long and bloody christian
> religous wars in france, the mass murder of the Albenasians, the mass
> murder of the Knights templar etc.
Have you had no slaughters in America? What have we to deduce from
them. They were Christian? White? English speaking? Brown?
Royalists?
Do you know some French people that claim to be the master of the world?
That claim France is like the Roman Empire? That identify with Rambo?
That dream of hegemony? That want to interfere in other's country
internal affairs? That want to crush every political system that isn't
like theirs? The American Christians just behave along that pattern.
That's why we have not that problem here and now. The USA didn't exist
at the time of the Inquisition. If so, I fear what would have happened.
Cl.Massé
6ffh9uspquuisojbd...@4ax.com...
> When I was in 3rd grade many years before you (early '50), we didn't
> "pray" (at least out loud) in school because that violated others
> religious freedoms. Why was your school denying others Constitutional
> rights long after that?
I completely disagree. Freedom of prayer is freedom of speech. Also
have to be free preach and proselytism, as well as wearing distinctive
mark. Any other law is restriction of religious right, and even
discrimination on religious belief. What is the difference between
believing in the wild liberalism and believing in a loving God?
Think again about that: electoral campaign is political proselytism.
Cl.Massé
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20020321060601...@mb-cs.aol.com...
> True, he was. But, he lead the french imperialists.
There were no French imperialists. Nowadays we would say it is a
dictatorship. Napoléon have been ousted, and finally exiled.
Lacustral
Psmith9626 wrote:
> No. I believe that climate is a complex,coupled nonlinear system and
> it is not clear that any warming trend will continue.
I saw a graph once of carbon dioxide concentration and temperature over
time and they basically tracked together. I don't remember the time
scale.
PSmith9626
The french had a world empire with colonies on every continent, forced those
countries to accept the french government, educational system, laws and
language.
As to Rambo, the french foreign legion did fine, and france has recent
bloody wars in Algeria and in Vietnam ( which was once
called FRENCH indo-china because the french " did not interfere in other
countries of try to have a global empire".
>Do you know some French people that claim to be the master of the world?
Actually I know some who wish they still were. They hate us because took it
over.
>That claim France is like the Roman Empire?
In fact, french institutions, govenment and laws are based on the roman empire.
Yes, I do many such frenchmen.
>That want to interfere in other's country
>internal affairs?
Algeria, Tunisa.
>That want to crush every political system that isn't
>like theirs
French Indo- CHina.
Get real, claude.
The USA had two models --france and Britain.
PSmith9626
For all his evil, Napolean was better than the french aristocrats who a century
earlier had kept most people in hopeless misery for nearly 1000 years with the
full collusion of the church. Napolean was a reformer--witness " the Napoleonic
code".
Wherever he conquered, he left first rate math departments and
universities as befits a friend of Monge and Fourier.
best
penny
The USA was founded on the ideas of the french enlightenment. The french
enlightenment was bitterly resisted by the church and aristocracy ( though not
as much as similar movements were in Italy and Spain). Voltaire was a hero.
Rouseau was a hero.
PSmith9626
You are closer than you know.
best
penny
>Unless maybe god is
>schizophrenic and each of his personalities related a different creation
>myth :-)
Actually, you meant multiple personality not schizophrenic and this is the
basis for polytheism.
It is also the basis for such things as jewish cabbala which in intended as a
healing process for God.
PSmith9626
Yes. They do locally track. But, there are many complex factors at work. There
is a local warming trend.
Incidently, the C02 level now is higher than it was in the jurassic age. We
were due for a return of the ice age ( about 11,500 years
cycle --due to the earth's precession) about a hundred years ago.
If we hadn't polluted the atmosphere, North American and Europe would
now be under a five hundred foot glacier.
best
penny
There is more heat energy in the top ten feet of the ocean than in the entire
atmosphere. Salinity changes due to melting ice can change the flow of the
major ocean currents. Small changes can bring on an ice age very quicky;
Beware simplistic computer models.
Tracy Yucikas
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote
>
> There is more heat energy in the top ten feet of the ocean than in the
entire
> atmosphere. Salinity changes due to melting ice can change the flow of the
> major ocean currents. Small changes can bring on an ice age very quicky;
> Beware simplistic computer models.
dear penny,
I recently saw a TV program about this very concept ... showing big
drifting icebergs with melting water dripping off them ... and the idea
that the resutling decrease in salinity of the ocean would prevent
cold water from taking the "down" major pipeline of the
"global conveyor belt" ... stopping the flow of heat energy from the
equatorial regions ... (I suppose this would be because high
salinity water can be more dense than low salinity water when it's
at low temperature (?) ) ....
but the one part of the model that wasn't presented was:
Somehow, it seems that the flow starts up again sooner or
later .... but how ?
If it takes 2000 years for the conveyor belt to take any
given molecule of water on one full cycle, is that time
somehow related to resumption of flow??
(halfway thru first cup of coffee )
-tracy
PSmith9626
But, it is the way to bet--Nick the greek.
best
penny
Christine!
"PSmith9626"
> Beware simplistic computer models.
Absolutely. Never really heard something with account to the amount of CO2
being dissolved in seawater, which changes with the temperature of seawater.
Sort of curious about that factor.
Chirstine!
>
Ray L
Lacustral <la...@lightlink.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSU.4.44.020322...@adore.lightlink.com...
Carbon dioxide levels over water will vary with temperature,
since cold water dissolves it better than warm water.
If everyone believes in CO2-based global warming, it will be used as
a reason to take control of all fossil fuel supplies. It is a
serious issue.
Catharine Honeyman
> Absolutely. Never really heard something with account to the amount of
> CO2 being dissolved in seawater, which changes with the temperature of
> seawater.
>
> Sort of curious about that factor.
I'm not a scientist, and the most technical reading I do is Smithsonian and
Skeptical Inquirer, but I think that the theory goes that the increased CO2
helps to keep heat in the atmosphere instead of allowing it to radiate into
space. I think.
--
Aloha,
Catharine
Character is what you do when no one's watching.
rian
--
The race is over. The rats won!
Rian
"Tracy Yucikas" <tyuc...@cts.com> schreef in bericht
news:a7i5sn$6...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Ray L
Tracy Yucikas <tyuc...@cts.com> wrote in message
news:a7i5sn$6...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
>
> "PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote
>
> >
> > There is more heat energy in the top ten feet of the ocean than in the
> entire
> > atmosphere. Salinity changes due to melting ice can change the flow of
the
> > major ocean currents. Small changes can bring on an ice age very quicky;
> > Beware simplistic computer models.
>
> dear penny,
> I recently saw a TV program about this very concept ... showing big
> drifting icebergs with melting water dripping off them ... and the idea
> that the resutling decrease in salinity of the ocean would prevent
> cold water from taking the "down" major pipeline of the
> "global conveyor belt" ... stopping the flow of heat energy from the
> equatorial regions ... (I suppose this would be because high
> salinity water can be more dense than low salinity water when it's
> at low temperature (?) ) ....
So, a sudden melting at the poles would dump all this cold
fresh water on top of the warm salty water from the equator,
and the heat would be trapped. But then the poles would
quickly stop melting.
Continental drift could make major changes in ocean currents.