New space power tool access control

[Peter Menningen]

there was some discussion at the Arduino meetup Friday about how to grant selective permissions to power tools based on Membership and Skill/training

The group is supposed to be makers & hackers. A possible solution would be to issue membership cards with an RFID tag embedded. Build an Arduino based power control box for each special tool. Not a real physical challenge just need a power contactor in a locked metal box like used to fuse spas. The power cord for the tool would be hard wired to the box the box would be a plug to the wall . On/off of the tool would be at the tool. The Arduino would be inside the box powered by a strategy like PoE only lower voltage
The Arduino would be flashed with RFID tags that are allowed to power the tool.
Each station would have its own local copy of the current access data for permission to run. It could be re flashed at any time based on member status.

The system would store user, date, time on, time off. The enable switch could be industrial sized with a large red off button latch type this would be an emergency stop.

A similar box could be made to access other locked tools and supplies
Pete

[cole santos]

That's a cool idea

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[Brian Thomas]

Peter, I like your thinking and offering a solution.   Our group, and those who will be checked out, will be of a sufficient size that we will know and be able to monitor who is capable of using the tools I imagine. 

As we scale up though your solution would be one we would look at.  It would have to have a champion to drive the effort as it is with any aspect related to a makers pace person makes things happen.

[Peter Menningen]

Since I'm planning on offering the use of some of my better pieces to the space when it happens. A lot of them are pro grade and 220v sharp blades, high power,


I would think that the locked power box at the wall would be the min for group protection. Any time you have a bunch of keys out with different locks it becomes a management nightmare. I've dealt with that situation and when the locks get changed for rental getting the keys back is very hard.

This would be a great group project to get the proto running and develop a cost per station. I could do the power box in my sleep I would need a lot of help with the programming and Arduino hardware.

If you need a champion when my stuff arrives I'll take it on.

Pete

[cole santos]

Access cards to rooms is fairly easy. Heavy power tools will be in one room only. So you just restrict access to that room.

[Peter Menningen]

I don't disagree  but would you have a person who was vetted with a drill press use a mig or tig welder.  Yes I'm just about as vocal as you but in a different way. I was trained to observe, find errors, develop a solution or a fix.  I don't believe in only one solution but there are many optimum solutions most of them need to be discussed when all of the situations are known. 

The room key should be the first level of access and maybe that is good for 90% of the tools   Maybe card access to groups of tools or work stations would be a solution.

Knowing who last used a tool would be helpful if it gets damaged like planer knives. 

Pete 

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Peter Menningen

[Laura Ulibarri]

Peter,

Great minds think alike. Arduino Bob has suggested the same sort of thing for controlling access.

Would love to see you champion this area.  What help do you need?

Laura

[cole santos]

True once you set up cards it should be easy

[Peter Menningen]

Laura  I'll work on a plan and parts list on the hardware side Next Arduino meting we can discuss the controller side and work from there. When I get my container I should have some parts to do a proof of concept proto in low current mode to test the Idea. I have some NI and other hardware in the kits in there. My container comes Dec 1  give me a week to get it transferred and sorted  by Christmas there should be a POC model.

Pete

[Bob Conlon]

I agree with Pete, room access for most, locked in limited power access for more expensive/involved/dangerous equipment.  Everyone who wants access, needs training on the use and safety on each rooms tools and each specialty piece of equipment. 

I've advocated a committee be formed for each specialty and/or unique piece of equipment (woodworking, metal shop, cnc, etc) to be responsible to create safety rules, training, maintenance, cleaning requirements, etc.

[Jerry Isdale]

Aloha Peter and welcome to Maui.

Card access is something I’ve seen implemented at a number of spaces.  Often as a main door access/sign-in feature.  This works very nicely for spaces that have ‘open when key holder is here’ policy (and only certain members have keys).

There are also several open source management software packages for managing a makerspace (incl key access to equipment, etc).  Discussion of them has been on the dis...@lists.hackerspaces.org mail list… (start at hackerspaces.org and follow links to find archives of this and lots of other info).

Card access does add significant layers of complexity and costs, both of which can be major hurdles for an operational space, let alone a startup.   

The power control boxes add a bit, but Costco has recently been carrying a 3 pack of Capstone Wireless Remote Control  Outlets for $19.  These are RF controlled (315Mhz). Each of 3 controllers have 3 buttons (one for each remote). Outlets are limited to 10A,1000W of 110AC.  It could be an interesting start for an arduino controlled power control.   I was thinking about using it for lighting, etc in my personal shops.

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

[Pete Menningen]

Jerry the problem with OTS devices is that the unit plugs into them and such they can be avoided by just going around 
 I'll look at the Costco when I'm there next
Sent from my iPad

[Laura Ulibarri]

Peter,

You up for leading this committee. I'm willing to help.

Laura

[Jerry Isdale]

Easy enough to put a plastic cover over the receptacle/plug and screw it into place.

A video surveillance system can help monitor for those who mess with that.

Then again - any system can be subverted, especially when you are dealing with Hackers.

But thats the social compact that goes with the space. 

And those that violate the compact face the collective wrath of the rest of the community. 

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

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[Peter Menningen]

Laura  Yes I'm willing to lead. Jerry, I do not believe in building out a system unless it is thoroughly vetted and tested.  The room access will probably do for most but I can think of 5 to 10 tools that may require special access.  A wall mounted Kill switch might not be a bad idea for these also.  That would come along almost free. We may not need the Arduino  but it would be able to offer user logging 

I'll see if I can get a parts list and some list costs for Fridays meeting Please send me the location

Pete 

[Peter Menningen]

To Jerry's point the non-tech solution would be a Lockable fused disconnect at each of the stations. Tools are hard wired into box.   different safety lockout device for each switch  Member checks out the key in the space with a token. Keys never leave the facility.  Unit would be locked off when not checked out.  cost  about $50 /tool, new switch  box at Lowes $25 and new lock for each one, separate Keys but mastered together so Leader/teachers could access all. . About $15 each There would be a cost for fuses of about $10 a station. 

The High Tech solution would be about 5X that cost. Unless we could scrounge a lot of electrical parts to refurbish. We should use the High tech solution as a goal and work on a viable solution as a group project  The Low tech could then  be reused to control access to entire sections if required. 

The 3 R's of hacking  Reuse, Re-purpose, Recycle Never throw out.

Pete

--

Peter Menningen

[cole santos]

I think if you just separate the room and put rfid card system combined with cameras, the problem is solved. To get access to the room you would need to be trained on all the tools inside

[cole santos]

All heavy tools will be in specific room any way.

[Ross Mukai]

Single locked room works if you have a single training session for everything inside. If it's split, there will be people who have only some of the training and either all or none of the access.

A LOTO kit is a cheap and easy way to keep people off of things. You're going to need LOTO come maintenance time anyway. The rest of the time, just get a different colored lock that signifies the lock is in place as an access control and not a LOTO. 

Mag contactors can be fired with an arduino the same way electric strikes can. Only thing is, the controller is a one-off per machine and it doesn't work on everything.

[Peter Menningen]

Cole  if we subdivide the work space with a hard wall  then the available space for users that do clean work is diminished. It is way more space efficient to have longer cords on the tools and use unformatted space in the middle of a room then to break it apart permanently.
Rolling sound dividers are a better solution for dividing the space. If one were to rip a full sheet of plywood  on the table saw or thickness plane a board they would need  a s[ace that is about 20' long 2X length of board + depth of tool + handling space.  A chop saw requires about 12' of free space to handle 8' boards. When you cramp tools the novices get hurt. 

Any shared shop space needs place for equipment, assembly, materials, and storage for partially built projects. Electronics and model building is easy but wood and metal work is harder to space out safely. Most persons do not design enough space into their shops. Me included. 

As for training on all of the tools  I may be good but I know what I don't know and I'm not at a very proficient level on all of the tools I own so I  would be locked away from my own tools. if the rule was strictly enforced.  Learning is a lifelong process so a Maker should not be locked out of a space because of lack of training or knowledge in a process he should be guided in the proper method. I join to teach and learn. 

Pete

[Peter Menningen]

It should be divided by dirt and dust creating tools not by weight of the tool.  A circular saw is just as dangerous to a novice as a table saw.  The clean area should have the soldering stations, light cutting like scroll saws, small drill press the 3D printer. etc  The dirty area should have all other power saws, wood working equipment, all welding equipment , Metal working equipment. Any Paint process. 

Pete

[Laura Ulibarri]

Pete,

Agreed on the large work area needed. Cramped work areas are unsafe, and a non-starter. We're going to have to work within affordability constraints.  I like the shared work area and locking out specific tools. More administrative burden, but better use of shared resources.

Laura

[Laura Ulibarri]

Dusty tools will be 1st floor and/or container until we get dust collection and space downstairs.

[Peter Menningen]

It took me  2 hrs a day for a half a year in High School to get somewhat proficient with a Lathe and a Mill Far from an expert. One 2 hr class per tool in the room would be the bare minimum just to inform persons on what not to do. I've owned welders since high school but I'm no expert  There are tools that require expertise to change knives Planers etc. For other tools do the individuals provide there own blades and bits or will they be shared and provided.    

[Laura Ulibarri]

Bits and blades are still a point of discussion. Should we charge a shop fee based on average wear and tear? A deposit on expensive machines in case of breakage? Oahu Makerspace (Ross) charges a fee on the laser cutter to be able to replace the laser. Shop fees can be per tool, or for a user group. Pricier consumables should be treated different than low cost. I'm thinking how my mechanic charges me for the big parts, but then a shop fee to handle screws and washers instead of a bunch of 10 cent items. If you can draft a plan, I am willing to help.

Misc Web searching:
I ordered some training material from the power tool institute.

Looks like it would be fairly straightforward to physically lock the plugs on power tools until we can get a more elegant solution.

I'm still interested in pursuing automated solution as group project, but that is longer term.

[Ross Mukai]

That is exactly where we are, also.

I have a motor contactor and an arduino setup that will rfid the table saw, but that's a medium term project until we can apply the same solution to the bandsaws, mill, and lathe. For now we use a luggage lock threaded through the holes in the plug. Works well enough. We have rfid doors and we print and issue cards so at least when we do move it over and authenticate machine switches on ldap, the cards will already be familiar to people.

Planer/jointer knives are a huge pain. Reclaimed lumber is very popular and planer/jointers can make old ugly wood nice and new, fast. The paint dulls the blades fast and hitting a nail is almost inevitable with reclaimed stuff. Changing out knives takes quite a bit of time from someone who knows how. It's simply not feasible to have everyone bring their own blades.

[Peter Menningen]

This is good we are coming to a type of consensus.   I have a bunch of blades 12" 10" 7-1/4"  Various tooth counts, drill bits and 1/4" driver bits  My best I'm going to hold back,  and consumables in stock. I also have many small parts. I have three sets of planer blades which can be sharpened if dulled I would think a small additional fee to users of the woodworking equipment would cover normal wear and tear on common blades. and sharpening for those that can be. as for Items that may be considered parts. Screws, nuts, bolts resistors, diodes, LED, scrap hardwoods,model paints a cookie jar for donations might be the solution combined with a list of what was used and by who so when it comes time to buy we know what is the most needed. that way if someone is in a pinch waiting for parts they could replace when the shipment arrives We could also put a list of parts requested in the kit for the next buy. I don't know how the 3D printer supplies are replaced yet but it would be in the same way.

[Jerry Isdale]

Dust collection/extraction is a very serious issue. 

The biggest problem is NOT the big chips and particles, but the micro ones.  Those are the ones that get into the lungs and cause significant issues over time.  I did a bunch of research on this a few years ago...

Confining the dust makers to an enclosed and ventilated/filtered area is a first step.

Having significant extraction power and channels (fans, pipes and filters) servicing each machine is next.  That means enough CFM (cubic feet of air per minute) volume to pull the dust from point of origin.

Filtering that extracted air before releasing it is VERY important - including changing the filters regularly.

Room Air Filters are proposed by many, but from what I understand, are a LOT less effective than manufacturers will promote.  Best to capture the fine dust at point of origin, and have HEPA filters on the exhaust side.

http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm

http://www.rockler.com/how-to/dealing-fine-wood-dust

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

[Jerry Isdale]

Ross - did you get a SawStop table saw?

Personally I would be hesitant to have anything else in a public space, especially when I have some personal liability (as board member/officer).

Bits, knives, and other consumables are one of the most expensive items over time for a shop.  There may be some that are part of the Community Stock, but people should be encouraged to bring their own - perhaps by costs for sharing.   It is easy to nick a blade/bit - especially on that reclaimed lumber that has hidden nails etc.  Novices do it more often than experts, but it will happen.  Such blades need to be identified and taken out of circulation.  Sometimes they can be resharpened, but a nicked blade can be much more deadly.

And maintenance is Extremely important for any of the tools.  

Liability Insurance is nice, but the company will try to show you did not maintain the equipment, so they won’t have to pay (and you will).

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

[Jerry Isdale]

It would be very difficult to enforce the ‘trained on ALL TOOLS’ aspect.

Each tool will need a Safety and Basic Use (SBU) class.  Some tools might be combined, but pretty much each SBU class will be at least an hour - giving time for all major aspects of use, and time for each participant to get hands on practice.  This will include blade/bit changing.

If the room has 5 tools - thats at least 5hours of class before you would get access.

(bandsaw, table saw, drill press, jig saw, lathe, planer, joiner, etc)

Having multiples of a tool would give members more access, allowing parallel training/experience time, at the cost of foot print and capital.

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

[Chester Lowrey]

If you can exhaust the pre filtered dust collection air outside the space that would be best, depends on the location though if this would be permissible. This also helps draw in fresh air from the other spaces, and creates a negative pressure inside the room to help insure that dust does not leave that space and travel to other rooms. 

Cheers,

Chester

-------------------------------------------------------

[Peter Menningen]

As for Dust control  I've brought the major parts of two systems a chip collector that fits on a 55 gal drum and a room air cleaner with replaceable filters  24" x 12"  good for up to 1000 sq ft Used a similar one to control dust not collected in a robotic router bit test robot enclosure.

[Ross Mukai]

No sawstop. Waiting to see if legislation will mandate. There's a case pending I've been loosely following. In the meantime, we have a really nice delta 3hp 10". Just have to keep eyes on it all the time. Sawstops are kind of a pain to operate. You need to test wood before running it. Even then it can fire the lockers on knots and classic home depot stored outside and still wet inside lumber. They also do very little to address kickback, which is the danger that most people don't understand about saws. 

Maintenance is a chore that can't be escaped for those exact reasons. You'll have to generate and retain A. Trainer training records. B. Training records. C. Maintenance records. 

When people bring their own bits, it gets hard to keep track of who brought what bit, whether it's a proper fit, in good condition, etc. when you keep shop bits/blades, people will lumber mill like there is no tomorrow, because if you have a day pass, there isn't. 

[Ross Mukai]

Our sbus are 3-6hrs a piece. It's not feasible to put the lock on the whole room if it takes 15hrs to get inside. 

[Pete Menningen]

They are nice but you need to replace the entire lower unit if it fires off better then a finger but very expensive. I have seen the demos from the original proto stage. Excellent shop practices and guarding is more important then technology to prevent incidents. Tooling to prevent, work holding, guards & push blocks work as well

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[Pete Menningen]

It could be handled like the Arduino group for each tool once a month or at such an interval a class could be given on an evening tool to be selected before hand 2 -3 hrs better then 1

There should be a night focused on the room every couple of months for the basic tools and workspace safety so new users can be granted access at novice level they could use the space have others use or guide them with their projects get personal training

Sent from my iPad

[Brian Thomas]

having been at the initial meeting with the landlords, our chances of woodworking power tools ie table saw inside are slim.  The container outside is the answer.  Access to that will be limited and supervised I would imagine.

Great discussion. 

Regarding our name, guild and especially local#XXX I wouldn't think are options as we already have a name (brand..). 

The discussion of SBU's leads to the important topic of our curriculum and offerings.  When we get this space, we will need to develop curriculum with corresponding teachers.  Also, we need champions of tech ie a 3-d printer champion and shapeoko champion who will know the equipment, check people out on it and look after it. That will be the highest priority and ought to begin soon.

[Pete Menningen]

I have a nice Craftsman pro 10" 2 hp CI extensions both sides double right side  extruded aluminum rip fence with slots for attachments and guards.  Blade guard and kickback are easy to remove and replace. Universal roller in feed and out feed supports.  These can be used for other tools also. It seems that when you spend 20 yrs testing tools you acquire toys. 

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[Lynn Rasmussen]

re: fine dust collection

Roy Pelligrin invented a filtration system -- Aqueous-Froth Air Filter -- for drywall dust--in Paukokalo. The lab is now in the little industrial center behind Maui Coffee Roasters. They (WES-worldwide.com ) now have  a dozen or so patents and are building industrial sized filtration systems. I wonder if you could get your hands on the original drywall dust machine. 

Building an AFA filter would be an amazing maker project. Roy might have some parts for it. 

Brian knows all about it. 

Lynn

Lynn Rasmussen

[Pete Menningen]

Is there room for more then 1 container? Is 220/240 service available? I am willing and able to be a champion for tools. 

In the new space will there be a place for lockers to store personal tools and small supplies?

No name change just a process to become a vetted user

Sent from my iPad

[Brian Thomas]

Peter, there is tons of room for containers, but we would need to buy another one.  We also need to look for lockers so makers, please keep your eye open.

I recognize the modeling of rules of a guild but wanted to squelch any thoughts of name change in case anyone was moving in that direction.

Lynn, good point about AFA filter.  I am sure we can get Roy over there as he drives by it every day.  It would be a cool project, and one that could be licenses with some commercial applications.

[cole santos]

We are still negotiating new space there is room for many containers we pay per month storage for each

On Nov 25, 2014 10:35 AM, "Pete Menningen" <pmgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is there room for more then 1 container? Is 220/240 service available? I am willing and able to be a champion for tools. 
>
> In the new space will there be a place for lockers to store personal tools and small supplies?
>
> No name change just a process to become a vetted user
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 25, 2014, at 10:15 AM, Brian Thomas <brian....@btmaui.com> wrote:
>
>> having been at the initial meeting with the landlords, our chances of woodworking power tools ie table saw inside are slim.  The container outside is the answer.  Access to that will be limited and supervised I would imagine.
>>
>> Great discussion. 
>>
>> Regarding our name, guild and especially local#XXX I wouldn't think are options as we already have a name (brand..). 
>>
>> The discussion of SBU's leads to the important topic of our curriculum and offerings.  When we get this space, we will need to develop curriculum with corresponding teachers.  Also, we need champions of tech ie a 3-d printer champion and shapeoko champion who will know the equipment, check people out on it and look after it. That will be the highest priority and ought to begin soon.
>>
>>
>>
>>

[cole santos]

I would be interested in building froth filter.

[Peter Menningen]

I have a container to be delivered to a spot in Lahania with my  personal stuff in it once I get settled and some of the stuff out. The and owner is willing to buy that one from me.  It is a steel container I would be willing to purchase another one. Aluminium and have it modified to be better suited to a shop side rolling doors if I had a place with power available, at a better rental rate. I would be willing to share the use of the tools inside if the maker space would not be able to have them inside. I will be attending meetings now that I'm on the Island.

[Jerry Isdale]

No name change implied… I was just noting that some other spaces refer to themselves with those monikers (but not necessarily the full culture that goes with it).

Containers are an option. I bought the aluminum one in Puunene back when we got initial permission for it there.  They are NOT cheap here.  Running power to one brings the County Inspectors into the picture.

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

[Laura Ulibarri]

The issue the landlords have with indoor "dusty" tools is Fire Code compliance with dust control. We will have safety concerns that exceed their concerns.

Space has room for containers and we can run power.

We will have storage space available.  Initially limited, but option to grow with demand and more income.

We don't have 220 in our areas, yet. But can work that out. Just expertise and funds to support install, inspection, space reqts.

I'm good with Pete as champion.

We have a few folks working into 3d printing leadership roles. That's a separate thread.

[cole santos]

Containers are like gold I wouldn't just sell it. I would keep it. Often times it can be impossible to purchase a container aluminum or steel they are somewhat rare

On Nov 25, 2014 11:02 AM, "Peter Menningen" <pmgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have a container to be delivered to a spot in Lahania with my  personal stuff in it once I get settled and some of the stuff out. The and owner is willing to buy that one from me.  It is a steel container I would be willing to purchase another one. Aluminium and have it modified to be better suited to a shop side rolling doors if I had a place with power available, at a better rental rate. I would be willing to share the use of the tools inside if the maker space would not be able to have them inside. I will be attending meetings now that I'm on the Island.
>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 10:42 AM, Brian Thomas <brian....@btmaui.com> wrote:
>>
>> Peter, there is tons of room for containers, but we would need to buy another one.  We also need to look for lockers so makers, please keep your eye open.
>>
>> I recognize the modeling of rules of a guild but wanted to squelch any thoughts of name change in case anyone was moving in that direction.
>>
>> Lynn, good point about AFA filter.  I am sure we can get Roy over there as he drives by it every day.  It would be a cool project, and one that could be licenses with some commercial applications.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

>> On Tue, Nov 25, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Pete Menningen <pmgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Is there room for more then 1 container? Is 220/240 service available? I am willing and able to be a champion for tools. 
>>>
>>> In the new space will there be a place for lockers to store personal tools and small supplies?
>>>
>>> No name change just a process to become a vetted user
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>> On Nov 25, 2014, at 10:15 AM, Brian Thomas <brian....@btmaui.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> having been at the initial meeting with the landlords, our chances of woodworking power tools ie table saw inside are slim.  The container outside is the answer.  Access to that will be limited and supervised I would imagine.
>>>>
>>>> Great discussion. 
>>>>
>>>> Regarding our name, guild and especially local#XXX I wouldn't think are options as we already have a name (brand..). 
>>>>
>>>> The discussion of SBU's leads to the important topic of our curriculum and offerings.  When we get this space, we will need to develop curriculum with corresponding teachers.  Also, we need champions of tech ie a 3-d printer champion and shapeoko champion who will know the equipment, check people out on it and look after it. That will be the highest priority and ought to begin soon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>

[Peter Menningen]

Cheap containers are hard  Slightly used ones that are reconditined are not that difficult I was able to arrange from Mainland  Location to place was hard for me

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Peter Menningen

[Jerry Isdale]

Containers are a lot easier to get on mainland, especially in certain areas where bulk comes in and it costs too much to send em back.  Here it costs significantly to get a container to the island (rates went up dramatically in last couple years).   Transport around the island can also be expensive.  It cost me $500 to move the aluminum one (empty, 40') from Haiku to Pu’unene.

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

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[Peter Menningen]

I paid $5K for a 40' high cube refurbished  limited trip  It will be about $400 to deliver from Harbor to Lahania 

[cole santos]

Are you could pay 400 to have it delivered to Wailuku....

[Peter Menningen]

OK so at the last Arduino meetign Bob and I were discussing hardware ( amoungst other things) We came to a conclusion that a wired system would be way more secure and stable for tool control.  Going on that premise I did a little research and found an Arduino board at Jamco electronics 

It is the Arduino Ethernet w/ PoE module, Rev. 3. ATmega328, μSD memory slot & W5100 Ethernet chip, RJ45 cost around $80 ea  Has Power over Eithernet so no power blocks at the tool site A micro SD card holder so we can have the user access DB and Data local 

The Arduino Ethernet is a microcontroller board based on the ATmega328 (datasheet). It has 14 digital input/output pins, 6 analog inputs, a 16 MHz crystal oscillator, a RJ45 connection, a power jack, an ICSP header, and a reset button.

Specifications

• Microcontroller: ATmega328
• Operating Voltage: 5V
• Input Voltage Plug (recommended): 7-12V, 9V is ideal
• Input Voltage Plug (limits): 6-20V
• Input Voltage PoE (limits): 36-57V
• Digital I/O Pins: 14 (of which 4 provide PWM output)
• Arduino Pins reserved:
      10 to 13 used for SPI
      4 used for SD card
      2 W5100 interrupt (when bridged)
  
• Analog Input Pins: 6
• DC Current per I/O Pin: 40 mA
• DC Current for 3.3V Pin: 50 mA
• Flash Memory: 32 KB (ATmega328) of which 0.5 KB used by bootloader
• SRAM: 2 KB (ATmega328)
• EEPROM: 1 KB (ATmega328)
• Clock Speed: 16 MHz
• W5100 TCP/IP Embedded Ethernet Controller
• Power Over Ethernet ready Magnetic Jack
• Micro SD card, with active voltage translators

We would need a POE Capable Switch for the area but if we made sure we had sufficent ports we could also power and connect the security webcams using the same switch. We may need to pull a second wire along the cat 5/6 from the switch to give the 24VDC for the contactors at the stations By powering all of them from the single location there could be a master override for everything in the room One big panic button HARD STOP for all benches and tools.  An easy way to prevent accidents  when we really do not want anybody to run anything. I've done this by having a key reset on a tool if the button is pushed. It is the same way if any fire control device is triggered.  

I used active sensors that were below the threshold of the sprinkler heads to cut power on smoke or rise in temperature over a short interval.  It did go off a number of times preventing the building sprinklers from activating.  On one occassion I was called late at night from building safety and when they said there was a fire (smoke event that cleared the building) I asked DID THE SYSTEM TURN OFF AND DID THE SPRINKLERS GO OFF) the answer was Yes and No so I told them to vent the area, the safety system worked and I would be in in the morning to investigate the failed tool. There wasn't anything that anybody could do further at that point so there was no use in me making a 80 mile RT.

So to plan for the future there should be a discussion on how many devices we want to use to monitor the workspace It is better to have a few more ports in a switch then to have one less then you need. Cost per port goes down as the number of ports goes up also the capabilities of the switch increase with cost but not in a linear fashion  but inversely (more ports higher power out- some faster GIGA ports etc)  

On Sunday, November 23, 2014 2:58:45 PM UTC-10, Peter Menningen wrote:

there was some discussion at the Arduino meetup Friday about how to grant selective permissions to power tools based on Membership and Skill/training

The group is supposed to be makers & hackers. A possible solution would be to issue membership cards with an RFID tag embedded. Build an Arduino based power control box for each special tool. Not a real physical challenge  just need a power contactor in a locked metal box like used to fuse spas. The power cord for the tool would be hard wired to the box the box would be a plug to the wall . On/off of the tool would be at the tool. The Arduino would be inside the box powered by a strategy like PoE only lower voltage
 The Arduino would be flashed with RFID tags that are allowed to power the tool.
Each station would have its own local copy of the current access data for permission to run. It could be re flashed at any time based on member status.

The system would store user, date, time on, time off. The enable switch could be industrial sized with a large red off button latch type this would be an emergency stop.

A similar box could be made to access other locked tools and supplies
Pete

[Jerry Isdale]

with something like this box for the power control...

   http://www.instructables.com/id/Yet-Another-Arduino-110v-Power-Controller/?ALLSTEPS

or

   https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/119

[Peter Menningen]

Jerry  These are lite duty they will work for a soldering bench  but when you get to a 240V thickness planer or a 240 V table saw any thing over 2 HP you need much more to handle the inrush current when the motor starts.  One heavy load and you'll blow those off the wall and maybe take out the Arduino and everything connected to it.Isolation is the Key the relay attached to the Arduino controls the coil to the motor starter.Local kill switch disconnects this feed Master Kill disconnects them all...

My mantra has always been build it bulletproof and you won't need to rebuild it. Make it easy to troubleshoot and fix in-case someone does something stupid. Document it if you're given the time. Some of my test stands are still running 15+ years after deployment..

The key to the maker space is to make it modulator so if we move we can disassemble and reassemble it.      

The key to a group project is to let the person who is best at one thing Lead that thing. I'm a power control person. I have needed to design and prototype PC boards for fixtures.   Bob is a programmer, Cole is an excellent Devils Advocate. We will probably need an electrician when the time comes. Cole is a plumber and I can sweat joints with the best of them so we should be able to install space compressed air. A HVAC person might be nice to have for dust collection and room air filtering. 

Maybe we can all talk story at the next open meeting 

If there are any other volunteers that have skills we need to know up front before we start the build of the space. Some good old fashioned brute muscle is needed also.  

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Peter Menningen

[Jerry Isdale]

quick sanity check… What is the Maui County Electrical Code for such circuits?

oh sorry, this is maui. 

The basic code book in use is a couple generations back from any on mainland.  I think they are now using one from 21st century.  Additionally the code says local officials have discretion to require additional or exempt.   They have been known to change their minds, retroactively.

seriously though.  we need to get a good maui electrician involved so we know what we can expect from County.

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

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[Peter Menningen]

No need to be sorry for Maui it is what it is. I have known that all along by doing my research in other forums and reading some of the documents on house construction. Since we are in an industrial building and will be open to the public The County inspectors will be involved. The easiest way to prevent problems is to discuss the project of the maker space with them and the electrician to get a handle on what will be and won't be allowed. This will prevent redo's and extra cost for us. There are normally different rules and guidelines for offices/clean areas then shop floors build and assembly areas. 

One of the big got-yous is  daisy chaining power strips on benches. No inspector likes to see that. The best practice is to have one or two 10 outlet pro power strips / bench plugged into the wall.with a 6 ft or shorter cord    

  

 I am for placing an electrician in the mix I even said that in the last post. The code here might be a little bit retro but The rules cant be too much more arcane then Chicago/cook county for commercial spaces. Having a Union/registered person guiding will help  National uniform code is the guideline with locals being more stringent  NEC requires a local disconnect for any hard wired device back at the old job this was bypasses by using large single purpose twist lock type plugs and outlets based on the current requirements that way The tool power and control are all between the wall plug and the tool. EVERYTHING enclosed in Approved boxes and using commercial equipment protocols. NO HOBBYIST switches or breadboards, equipment panels or racks for IT equipment in neat closets or rooms Cables dressed neatly and secured. Minimum use of extension cords and any cords across the floor in protective rubber chases.

Looking professional goes a long way to appease the inspectors if it looks like it was put together by a SCLOCKMIESTER  (Hammer Mechanic) they look extra hard. If it looks like it was made for NASA then they look less.  If the parts carry UL or CSA part seals hey have greater confidence in the system. 

    

[Laura Ulibarri]

I talked to our potential landlord today and the thing that's been holding up finailing lease was her concern over monitoring our power usage. (Farmers market was using $600/month!)

So we'll need a way to measure power usage in our area. Unless we want to pay $$$ for submetering. She likes proposal to monitor power use. Easy for 110V. I don't know about 220V. But since we need to log use, we should be able to find a solution.

[Ross Mukai]

Split the cost of the meter/panel. By right the landlord should pay for the electrical improvements because they add value to their space. Unfortunately, it's a sellers market and they'll probably balk at the price because the meter probably means starting a separate feed. Huge $$. Another option would be a subpanel with a submeter like an E-mon D-mon. Would save on the price of an additional feed if that ends up being required for a utility meter. Only thing is, you still work out your share with the landlord.

If you go with something less than a tamper-proof, purpose-built commercial meter, you may end up in a dispute over the bill in the future.

> On Dec 1, 2014, at 20:09, Laura Ulibarri <lulib...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I talked to our potential landlord today and the thing that's been holding up finailing lease was her concern over monitoring our power usage. (Farmers market was using $600/month!)
>
> So we'll need a way to measure power usage in our area. Unless we want to pay $$$ for submetering. She likes proposal to monitor power use. Easy for 110V. I don't know about 220V. But since we need to log use, we should be able to find a solution.
>

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[Jerry Isdale]

sub meter would be good idea except for MECO rates — a commercial panel was several thousand even w/o going to 3 phase when I was looking a year or so ago.

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

[Peter Menningen]

I have a contact in up country that I was going to put my container in his pasture that does that sort of thing commercially maybe he can give us a  quote I don't know what the rates are here for a subpanel meter  But one installed like a backup power circuit  for the panel for the tool area should be reasonable If you do a HECO sub it might mean rewiring the entire building to split circuits  Other wise I know of transducers that can give Watt-hours in pulses for any type of power on an individual circuit basis +/- 1% I can get a cost  . I can get a cost on a per unit basis They are bullet proof  UL CSA tested comercal lab units.  Lighting power is easy amp clamp on box wire per circuit  just monitor time on occupied for rooms  there are also sensors to check and count hours on.  It looks like we are going into commercial building automation just to get started. 

Or maybe the landlord will be satisfied with just the time a machine is running and the power it uses and a computed power use to bill  I would not commit to do a lot of permanent changes to the building infrastructure without a long term lease and cost sharing from the landlord. If we are going to put $$ into the building that benefit the landlord we should get a credit against the rental except that he is already giving us a major break against other commercial spaces.

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Peter Menningen

[Peter Menningen]

I just did a quick check on my old supplier the range of costs per transducer would be 600 -1k per transducer  depending on amount of power  and if it is single or three phase  this covers from 0 -100 A 0-240 V in with a 108-135 instrument power provided. Some are bi directional like for solar monitoring. 

They also have current present monitors at about $60 each for detecting if a tool motor is running  0-6 through 0-600 A 

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Peter Menningen

[Laura Ulibarri]

The E-mon solution that Ross suggested looks interesting. It submeters, without MECO. It also gives the landlord options for acquiring new tenants and submetering them. Requires an electrician for install.

We won't do major mods without a long-term lease.

[Peter Menningen]

I believe my friend in upcountry designs and installs them. Anything building connected and  not built into a tool would need an electrician to install and would require pulling permits first  no way around here on Maui. Especially in a commercial space. I'll bet even the insurance policy requires all work to building infrastructure requires code adherence hence permits and licensed installers.  

On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 6:36 AM, Laura Ulibarri <lulib...@gmail.com> wrote:

The E-mon solution that Ross suggested looks interesting. It submeters, without MECO. It also gives the landlord options for acquiring new tenants and submetering them. Requires an electrician for install.

We won't do major mods without a long-term lease.

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[cole santos]

Need to talk to wade he moniters his whole house from an inductive clamp and some  other parts.

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[Peter Menningen]

Monitoring a house for yourself is a little but different then hooking into a commercial space and generating data foor billing and credits.  Consumer amp clamps are about +/- 5% at best unless calibrated. Assuming Voltage to be 120 when the power company can deliver anywhere from 112 to 125 and  be within its specifications  frequency can be +/- 1 HZ but must catch up so the cycles delivered over 24 hrs is right. This is to allow for load leveling and balancing between generation equipment.  even the Plug in watt monitors are only +/- 3 % at best but that is OK for ballpark estimates to see where your power $$ are going  as they say close enough for Hand grenades and Atom Bombs. If I'm paying $$$ I want real accurate meters to bill me. 

I used to certify test stands for Consumer efficiency reports for the government You know the labels on the appliances. 

[Jerry Isdale]

and MECO power fluctuates quite a bit.

Jerry Isdale
i.e. Id Est LLC
isd...@gmail.com
808.573.7606
Haiku, HI

[cole santos]

Good enough to give a rough estimate