Re: [MakerBot] How are support material and overhangs handled on a Rep2?

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

Makerware is somewhat limited at the moment, hopefully an update will be out shortly. You can indeed customize support using Replicator G and the backend slicer software, Skeinforge. Some folks use another called Slic3r but I dont' have any experience with its support features. Your uPrint uses ABS, Rep2 uses PLA only. Even on the Rep1 it never did automatic support generation from the second extruder. It just wasn't developed. I know individuals that got it working on their own. You will get an ok printer but nothing like what $18,500 will get you from a uPrint. I suggest skip the marketing hype, save your money, and buy a dual extruder Rep1. We've been capable of 100 micron layer height (.1) since the first cupcake model in 2009. It is sexy black if that is your thing. ALso it is possible someone will provide firmware with more featrues than stock, that is the beauty of open source.

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 2:15 PM, Greg L <greg...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm a user of a Stratasys uPrint at work, and I'm considering a Rep 2 for home use - I hate going in to work on the weekends to run my prints off hours, and the environment heating takes forever. The only thing I'm confused about with the Rep 2 is how it handles overhangs and support. The uPrint uses a second extruder with soluble material to build up supports, while a Rep 2 has only a single extruder. Does Makerware automatically print PLA support beams that are clipped off with nippers after printing? Does the software simply not try to do it correctly, resulting in fallen overhangs and other nastiness? If there are automatic support columns, are they configurable or adjustable at all?

In short, what's the current Makerware/Rep 2 method for handling overhangs by default?  Are these settings adjustable anywhere (I can't find them in MW beta currently, but then again, I've never used MW before, so it might be a PEBKAC).

Thanks for any input or help you have,
- Greg

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[Greg L]

Thanks so much for the info. Having had the luxury of a pricey machine at work, I didn't follow MakerBot too closely, and was surprised (after a bit of searching related to your firmware comment) to find that Rep2 is closed source, and thus may never get the cleaned up version of Sailfish, for example. I would love a simpler-to level bed, the build volume, and I don't mind PLA over ABS as most of the stuff I do isn't structural by any standards, so the Rep 2's specs are actually right up my alley.

Very disappointing, as I still had memory of MakerBot as a "good' company with open source values, and to hear that it's been going downhill really makes me reconsider my hoped-for Christmas present.

[Dan Newman]

On 21 Oct 2012 , at 6:04 PM, Greg L wrote:

> Thanks so much for the info. Having had the luxury of a pricey machine at
> work, I didn't follow MakerBot too closely, and was surprised (after a bit
> of searching related to your firmware comment) to find that Rep2 is closed
> source, and thus may never get the cleaned up version of Sailfish, for
> example.

The firmware for the Replicator 2 is open source actually. And Sailfish
could run on it with minimal changes, actually.

Dan

[Chris Yerga]

I have a dual extruder Replicator 1 and a uPrint. As someone who uses both the short answer is that the Replicator 1 doesn't do support material the way you're used to with the Stratasys machine. There is a way to have support material generated if you use ReplicatorG, but it's breakaway support printed with the same material as the model (not the second extruder) and a major pain to deal with -- nothing like the soluble support that the uPrint offers. A few folks have experimented with PLA for support material but so far it's very experimental.

Having said that, I've found that with a bit of extra effort you can design in custom support material in your models that you can snap off. Obviously it depends highly on the design you're printing, but I've documented a bit of what I've been doing here: http://atomsandelectrons.com/blog/2012/10/battling-gravity/

The benefit of the Stratasys is you can be totally lazy and not worry about printability. But as you've no doubt learned from using it, your print times go up massively when you use a lot of support material. Whenever it needs to switch materials it has to tilt the print head to the other extruder, clean the tip with the bush, etc. which burns time. So I find myself increasingly printing on the Makerbot with designed-in support if I can as it's faster and I can use more colors. The uPrint is always there when I don't want to risk a failed print or don't have the time to design in support -- sounds like you've got this backup option available too.

What I'm saying is you're not going to get the support material flexibility that you have with the uPrint, but if you're willing to invest some time learning the constraints of the machine you may discover you don't miss it as much as you might think.

-Chris

[Luis E. Rodriguez]

I just meant that if there is a feature your after, chances are another firmware has them. I just read in another thread about someone using Kisslicer Pro for the second extruder for support feature you were after, and that is just in the gcode generation.

Luis E. Rodriguez

Are you a Maker?

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[funmakerBart]

Hi,

If you want to generate support for the other extruder, you can try Kisslicer (www.kisslicer.com) . Sadly only the paid version (40$ or so) of Kisslicer has the possibility for generate Gcode for more extruders (so object first extruder and raft/support/top of the support with the second for example). This version can also place more objects on the plate.

I use it with the Replicator 1.

Cheers Bart

Op maandag 22 oktober 2012 03:44:15 UTC+2 schreef Luis E. Rodriguez het volgende:

[Greg L]

Dan -
  Thanks for the follow-up. It's disappointing and a bit embarrassing that I'm getting so many things inaccurate in my first few posts, but I suppose that's what forums are for, in many ways. Making sure that bad information gets cleaned up.

[Greg L]

Chris -
  I am completely in the clear that I won't get the automagic soluble support of the Stratasys, but it sounds like even simple column supports made out of model/build material (PLA in this case) aren't automatic either, and as such, you either have to manually add in "touch points" to the raw model to make sure it gets the support it needs, or simply consider some models "unprintable"? It seems like it should be an easy enough thing to automatically search for overhangs and add 2mm x 2mm columns beneath the model, that (as you suggest) could be snapped/nipped off.

[Jens Willy Johannsen]

You can see how ReplicatorG creates supports here. The red walls underneath the outhanging block are the supports that ReplicatorG has added. MakerWare will do something similar.

(Sliced in ReplicatorG with default settings visualized in Pleasant3D.)

[Elbot]

Yeah, automatic supports, but with the same print head and in the same color plastic. You'll be real familiar with the dremel.

If support is your thing, then the Replicator 1 with PLA and PVA water soluble support with dual extruders should be the ticket. However, be aware that you'll have to design the support as a model. It is not the automagical support that you're used to.

[Joseph Chiu]

With good tuning, rafts and supports actually "rip" off, almost velcro-like.  It's been a few months since I've last done one, but I have had really nice results with supported prints.  That said, I remember my first few attempts were awful, with rafts and supports fused so much into the print that even using chisel and hammer did not work...

The trick is to tune the temperature, speed, and flowrate so that the raft comes out really thin, and bonds well enough to itself, but not so much with the actual printed part.

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 7:17 AM, Elbot <tomas...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yeah, automatic supports, but with the same print head and in the same color plastic. You'll be real familiar with the dremel.

If support is your thing, then the Replicator 1 with PLA and PVA water soluble support with dual extruders should be the ticket. However, be aware that you'll have to design the support as a model. It is not the automagical support that you're used to.

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[Steven Dick]

Makerbot does have automatic support generation in its software.  Even the early versions of the software had it.

The problem is, the support generation is not efficient at all.  Of course, I've seen what the commercial machines use for automatic support, and it might actually be worse -- the difference being, they use soluble support, so it is at least easy to remove.  Makerbot is getting there, it is available now experimentally.

 I _prefer_ to do manual support generation, as I can then add the minimum support necessary to make the part print, which greatly speeds print time.  It would be interesting to try to write an algorithm to do the minimal support generation that I do manually now.

Of course, not all parts (especially ones that need internal support that can't be broken away easily) can be printed this way.