Going into winter - observations...

[Greg V]

So I was prepping my two nucs for the winter over the weekend and peeked inside (we had a couple of really nice days)...
While at it, some distinct differences became more obvious between the two.

Nuc #1 - these cut-out guys live in my happy-face horizontal hive
this family keeps bringing pollen every chance they get (they still have fresh eggs going strongly - confirmed; I am surprised - kinda late);
unsure if this is good trend; this feels more like a southern trend good for zones 8-9, but not zone 5;
no matter how much I feed them, they seem to just eat the food and try to raise more brood if they can;
this nuc continues to be light and will totally depend on dry sugar if they are to survive - no reserves to speak of;
this nuc has mites - confirmed by the grease plate under them (unsure how much, but whatever - if they die, they die)

Nuc #2 - this family was a late swarm in a swarm trap - I build a really, really nice wintering box for them and dropped the trap into it
they don't do pollen anymore not matter how much I watch them - nothing;
on warm days they only go out to orient a little around the hive;
they take all the syrup they get and just stuff it up all over (true hoarders);
not much brood is going (did not see eggs yesterday, but could miss some) - they are really shutting down looks like;
the nuc is heavy and may not even need dry food (will give them anyway, to be sure);
this feels like a northern trend to me - maybe a good thing; donno yet.

It will be interesting to see how they both do.

[Joseph Bessetti]

It can be difficult to know what is best in regard to late fall observations.  Plus you have to wait until March/April before you can make any conclusions!

In general, having brood now is good because it means you'll have young winter bees to get through the next 4 months.  However, you don't know if Nuc #1 is raising brood naturally or is raising brood artificially as a result of fall feeding.  Personally, I prefer a hive that raises brood well into October without the stimulation of feeding.  Of course you don't have much choice here.

Nuc #2 not foraging for pollen would concern me a bit unless they already have lots of pollen stored in the hive.   Availability of fermented pollen in the hive is the key to the winter bees' long life.  Your fall feeding could be diverting foragers from collecting pollen right now?

I think I would want to combine the pollen and ample young bees of Nuc#1 with the stores of Nuc#2.  Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

You finally caught a swarm in one of your traps?  If so, very nice! 

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 10:19 AM
To: madbees
Subject: [madbees] Going into winter - observations...

 

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[Greg V]

Agreed!
I really don't know what the heck is going on and what is good/bad here.
Depends on the particular winter in front of us as well.
We'll see in short 4-5 months... hehe..

Just trying to wrap my head around of what I observe lately
- #1 keep pulling pollen, raising brood and no reserves (like no winter in the plans)
- #2 all settled down, plenty of reserves and don't do much even on warm days (there is plenty of pollen out there still to collect)
- I feed both about the same, but I do notice that
-- #2 is sucking the syrup more quickly (and store it away and sit on it);
-- #1 seem to just take as much as they immediately need (yet do not store it - plenty of empty storage they have)

Indeed, more brood COULD be a good thing (in this particular case - small nuc) so that they have more bodies to warm up the cluster.
I can provide them with plenty of dry food, but I can NOT provide them with more bees; that's for sure.

No, I did not catch anyone into a trap unfortunately - done trapping this season (just a bad wording on my part).
Next year!

I simply winter that late swarm I got directly in a trap hive since I have no more permanent hives built (yet).
It was just much faster to hammer together a large wintering box from scraps, drop the trap inside and stuff empty spaces around them with insulation.
This wintering box turned out great and will house up to 3 trap hives when needed (will post pictures).
Will see how goes it, but the wintering box will be a great simulation of a large tree hollow, I think.

[Tim Aure]

I've been told Italians (A Southern Europe bee) build like that, Carnies less and Russian even less.

Michael Palmer says his bees- I believe he says are Russian- shut down early and cluster Small, tight, with little movement/ he's by the Vermont, Canadian border. 

But come spring the build up fast. They have a shirt season.

 My friend, Tom, had A big build up hive of Italians a few years back that didn't winter well & starved out despite a heavy fall feed. With all the inbreeding I'm not sure how the different bee groups stay separate. They should all be muts. It'll be interesting to see which hive does better but from what you say, it sound like the smaller hive are typical Russians. Time will tell how this bares out. Make sure to put sugar on top.

My thoughts, though I'm no expert😐

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

[Joseph Bessetti]

There are a number of ways that honeybee strains can remain genetically distinct despite overlapping ranges, and there's a fair amount of peer-reviewed research that can be found to support many of these:

Different drone/queen mating flight altitude

Different drone/queen mating flight speed

Differences in size and mating preference for larger or smaller queens/drones

Different peak time of day for drone and queen mating flights

Differences in timing of drone brood rearing and colony swarming

Differences in queen development and emergence times between strains

Differences in worker selection of larva for queen rearing

It's a lot more complicated than just having thousands of drones in the air mating randomly with whatever queen shows up.   Yet, because a queen often mates with as many as 12-17 drones, there is still opportunity for exchange of genetics between strains.   Fascinating stuff really. 

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Tim Aure <timoth...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 7:31 AM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Going into winter - observations...

 

[Greg V]

I do have to say still - this trend to try to raise brood this time of the year while having no reserves on hand is NOT my favorite.
Talking of a long-term view here - in zone 5.
If this nuc does survive into the next summer - I will not be feeding them again.
They better watch it and behave responsibly.
OR die.

[Joseph Bessetti]

Sure, but you don't want a hive with no reserves to hold off on brood rearing in April, do you?  I don't think the bees are nearly as responsive to the state of their pantry as they are the simple fact that food is being delivered to the front door.   I will withhold judgment until we see who is alive in April.

Most beekeepers try to feed light syrup in spring to stimulate brood rearing and heavy syrup in fall to enable rapid storage and get less brood stimulation.  You are feeding heavy syrup right?

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 12:38 PM
To: madbees

Subject: Re: [madbees] Going into winter - observations...

[Greg V]

According to the Google they should start resume the brood in late December/early January or so.
The northern trend it is like this - stop brooding in October; resume in January, when the daylight trend reverses towards spring (in theory; I like this daylight trend theory - bees can depend on that).

Not waiting until April; no one is saying April, Joe.

I am feeding the standard fall formula - 2:1.
Will be wrapping this up soon due to the cold; I see them eating the dry sugar as we speak.

I agree that wait and see is the proper approach. Still the colony distinctions are clear with just the two.
In fact, I'd be interested to hear similar observations from you with so many various cases on hand right now (is mind boggling what you may have).

[Matt H]

Additionally, I wouldn't blame your hive survival (if they die) on fall feeding...it was started with a tiny swarm in late August.  

[Greg V]

Follow up....

I have been running remote temperature sensing in both #1 and #2 for the last 6 weeks or so.

Lucky for Nuc #1, the weather has been rather warm and they did manage to raise another batch of brood.
It was very clear that for the compatible colony size, the #1 was running about 10 degrees consistenly hotter than the #2.
They were, of course, burning through all the syrup I gave them and put away nothing.
90% of their food stores at the moment is dry sugar on top.

About mid-November the #1 seem to finally finish their brood raising activity.
The temps in both hives are running about the same now.

At the same time, the #2 was done with the brood raising at about mid-October.
So that is probably consistent with the lower temp they were running all along.

Since there is a discussion next to this about bees eating all the stores before winter, I thought this was a relevant observation.
If the genetics tell the bees to anticipate no winter/very mild, short winter, then it makes sense to behave this way (maintain the big colony through and through).
Not exactly the best plan for zone 5 survival, however.

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 10:19:28 AM UTC-5, Greg V wrote:

Nuc #1 -  ..........this family keeps bringing pollen every chance they get (they still have fresh eggs going strongly - confirmed; I am surprised - kinda late);

unsure if this is good trend; this feels more like a southern trend good for zones 8-9, but not zone 5;

Nuc #2 -  ..........they don't do pollen anymore not matter how much I watch them - nothing;

[Greg V]

So the both nucs survived the initiation by cold temps - good thing.
They both sit in decently insulated equipment but the genetics seem to be also holding up to freezing just fine (given the small clusters).

I am more concerned for the #1 as they are smaller, very light on carbs, and probably switching to emergency dry sugar about now. I mean to post the temp/humidity readings recorded over the last month.

[Greg V]

Well, due to the November brooding push, #1 maybe bigger now than I think.
Lucky for them - tons of pollen available in October/November (totally out of normal).
Lucky for them also, they have a human tender with lots of dry sugar on hand. haha.

[Paul Zelenski]

Hah, yeah, honestly no one should ever have bees that die over winter due to starvation. It is too easy to provide sugar. Brooding up late in the fall is a good thing when they have a tender willing to provide them with food. I have seen hives overwinter on nothing but dry sugar, so these guys should have a chance. Once they're at the top,of the hive living off dry sugar, it also isn't a bad idea to give them some pollen sub. It will allow them to raise more (unnatural) brood, which is good for a small cluster. It is especially good when they will continue to have access to food without having to move. It lets them raise more brood than a "natural" hive that would be moving up through the honey combs. 

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[Greg V]

Finally entered some data over the last two months.

Could be data entry errors.

Missed to capture few data points (just forgot); hence those abrupt jumps up/down.

Good enough for overall trends though.

#1 above - SC01

#2 above - SP01

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[Greg V]

Did corrections to the graph.
What I like about this graph is that it confirms that both wintering configurations I am testing here keep the humidity low and the bees stay dry (no need to be guessing or looking inside).
If the humidity above bees hovers close to 100%, that would show a need for urgent corrective actions.
Monitoring similar to this should prevent cases of bee loss due to humidity in winter.

Btw, this dry sugar placed over the bar tops in TBHs with one bar raised to create passages works great for me.
The bees did come up and have been carving out caves in the sugar slabs.
This also makes sense because heat it raising up and keep those feeding bees warm.

[Greg V]

An update:
#1 was finally nailed by the cold nights we had just the last week;
it is too bad because they handled much colder temps in December/January just fine;
cleaned the hive out last Sunday (have postmortem pics to post).

Short resume:
they basically ran into a choice to move up and eat the sugar OR move sideways to a frame of honey (there were heavy frames on both sides of the cluster)
they chose to go up and climbed above the frame into a sugar cave (pretty well insulated by a blanket, but still.......)
the last cold snap killed the remaining small cluster of the poor bees (all curled up in a cave of sugar)

All in all:
bees seemed to like to move upwards rather than sideways (the warm air moving upwards facilitated the choice I guess - nothing new)
my setup worked well and exactly by the plan;
unsure I will do this exact setup again, however; I would rather have the bees stayed under the bars and move sideways and stay warmer and maybe still alive
a bigger cluster would have probably survived but the nuc just ran out of the bees due to the attrition already starting small

Moving along!