I got a great package this spring, and now they have swarmed!
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Randy D
Jun 27, 2016, 12:33:46 PM6/27/16
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Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 12:59:19 PM6/27/16
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Why not try a horizontal design?
Fits your TB ways anyway, but little bit more manageable if that is important.
Especially, if you build one yourself, why go mainstream? :0)
Fits your TB ways anyway, but little bit more manageable if that is important.
Especially, if you build one yourself, why go mainstream? :0)
William Palmer
Jun 27, 2016, 1:00:55 PM6/27/16
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Build or buy 10 frame equipment. Gives the bees more room to expand the brood nest. That's the reason they swarmed.
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Matthew Hennek
Jun 27, 2016, 1:02:33 PM6/27/16
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Is weight an issue for you? If so, 8 frame medium only langs is a great option.
Do you fully build your own equipment? If not, I would go with 10 frame langs. While both 8 and 10 frame boxes are commercially available, 10 is much more common and easily found. You said build, but I don't know if you meant cut build or assemble build.
Is height an issue? A 3 deep brood lang setup is 4 deep if going with 8-frame equipment. Add supers to that and you're getting pretty high.
I don't know if either size winters better than another. I had 5 frame, 3 deep, nucs overwinter fine, so I don't think the smaller 8 frame box is any worse (assuming same # of frames).
Some say 8 frame hives are better for reducing mite counts (has to do with heat retention), but I haven't seen any real data that supports this other than anecdotal evidence.
I don't think you'd be wrong going with either option. If you want to be a bit odd and you build your own equipment, you could try out a layens hive design. http://www.horizontalhive.com/how-to-build/layens-beehive-design.shtml
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 11:33:46 AM UTC-5, Randy D wrote:
Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 1:19:58 PM6/27/16
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As for me, weight is one of the issues.
I custom build my equipment loosely based on the "layens" below and added flavors of the traditional ukranian horizontal hive..
Also built-in partial compatibility with conventional Lang equipment (just makes sense - those free comb frames from Paul went right into my traps!)
.
I custom build my equipment loosely based on the "layens" below and added flavors of the traditional ukranian horizontal hive..
Also built-in partial compatibility with conventional Lang equipment (just makes sense - those free comb frames from Paul went right into my traps!)
.
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 12:02:33 PM UTC-5, Matthew Hennek wrote:
Is weight an issue for you?
......................
Randy Deering
Jun 27, 2016, 1:25:31 PM6/27/16
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I thought it may be a little faster for me to knock out a Lang and then just buy the frames from Capital Bees. Now I have a little time until they build back to where they were. Thanks Greg, I'll have to consider other designs.
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Randy Deering
Jun 27, 2016, 1:27:06 PM6/27/16
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I'll just buy lumber and make my own hive, but I will probably buy the frames from Capital.
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Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 1:30:55 PM6/27/16
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Horizontal Lang will take the frames from Capital just fine.
Fyi. Just saying..
Anyway, I decided against horizontal Lang due to WI climate.
This is more of a Southern hive.
Fyi. Just saying..
Anyway, I decided against horizontal Lang due to WI climate.
This is more of a Southern hive.
Randy Deering
Jun 27, 2016, 1:33:10 PM6/27/16
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I thought I went a bit odd when I built my TB instead of a Lang for my first hive! Maybe not.
Weight isn't an issue, and since my wife only wanted one hive originally, I bilt the TB. When she saw how fast they were building up in our TB, she told me to quickly build another hive. Oops! A little late eh?
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Randy
Randy Deering
Jun 27, 2016, 1:38:44 PM6/27/16
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Nice lookin hive Greg. I like the artwork. How much does it weigh when it's filled with bees?
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Joseph Bessetti
Jun 27, 2016, 1:50:02 PM6/27/16
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Why not build another top bar hive? With a Lang you will end up with two hives with frames that aren't interchangeable. If your hope was to have another hive to split your top bar colony into, I'm not sure how you were going to make that work with a standard Lang as your second hive. It might be possible to build a custom-sized Lang that will accept frames from your current Top-bar hive... but then it won't fit standard frames.
If you want to try a Lang, then do it. Just keep in mind the two systems aren't directly interchangeable for supplying brood frames or equalizing winter stores.
With your hive swarming at the peak of the honey flow, it might be a little optimistic to expect it to get back to full strength to be split and for both splits to draw enough comb and store enough honey and pollen for winter. You might want to just focus on making sure your one hive is in good position to overwinter and save building that second hive for the coming winter?
Joe
From: rdeer...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:33:08 -0500
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: I got a great package this spring, and now they have swarmed!
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
If you want to try a Lang, then do it. Just keep in mind the two systems aren't directly interchangeable for supplying brood frames or equalizing winter stores.
With your hive swarming at the peak of the honey flow, it might be a little optimistic to expect it to get back to full strength to be split and for both splits to draw enough comb and store enough honey and pollen for winter. You might want to just focus on making sure your one hive is in good position to overwinter and save building that second hive for the coming winter?
Joe
From: rdeer...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2016 12:33:08 -0500
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: I got a great package this spring, and now they have swarmed!
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Randy Deering
Jun 27, 2016, 2:09:31 PM6/27/16
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The TB I built was kind a PIA to build in my opinion. I think you are right on the timing of trying to do a split this year though. I'll see if they can get queen right soon, and hope they can build up for winter.
But I think I will build a 10 frame Lang a bit later, so I'm ready if they swarm on me next year. And I suppose I could build a customized box to fit on top of a lang, that would hold my TB bars. Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 2:25:27 PM6/27/16
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Don't know - no bees yet.
When empty, I moved I around as needed myself while still working on it (being a skinny-runner type).
It is on a heavy side as a unit by design, to be sure; thick walled.
It designed to be moved by two people as a default (attached handles; there are also brackets to insert wooden/metal poles if needed to carry it ergonomically).
It is meant to be setup and left alone year around with minimal intervention (the traditional Ukrainian hive maintenance pretty much - laissez-fair).
Once setup, it is frame-based work; not super-base work.
When empty, I moved I around as needed myself while still working on it (being a skinny-runner type).
It is on a heavy side as a unit by design, to be sure; thick walled.
It designed to be moved by two people as a default (attached handles; there are also brackets to insert wooden/metal poles if needed to carry it ergonomically).
It is meant to be setup and left alone year around with minimal intervention (the traditional Ukrainian hive maintenance pretty much - laissez-fair).
Once setup, it is frame-based work; not super-base work.
Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 2:31:04 PM6/27/16
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Good points.
It is best to have the hives with some sort of frame compatibility on your yard.
Best - 100% compatibility.
The frames must flow easily between the hives in any direction.
It is all about frame standardization (or the top-bar size, at least).
You will thank (or hate) yourself later - depending your early choices.
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 12:50:02 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:
It is best to have the hives with some sort of frame compatibility on your yard.
Best - 100% compatibility.
The frames must flow easily between the hives in any direction.
It is all about frame standardization (or the top-bar size, at least).
You will thank (or hate) yourself later - depending your early choices.
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 12:50:02 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:
....... Just keep in mind the two systems aren't directly interchangeable for supplying brood frames or equalizing winter stores.........
Randy Deering
Jun 27, 2016, 2:50:12 PM6/27/16
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Joe and Greg, you are right about some consistency and frame interchangeability. That's why I am thinking of going Lang. Joe, you've been in my TB. Not much standard about it. At least if I start using Langs, I will have s hive that I can expand on with standard equipment.
BTW, where do you get small cell foundation Joe?Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 3:38:27 PM6/27/16
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This is important.
But also important question is - what exactly do you want from the keeping the bees?
For example, I consider myself a peasant that on a side also would like to have 2-3 hives in a far back corner, for my own consumption needs.
I am too busy to spend much time around them checking for this and for that too often.
Hence are my choices.
But also important question is - what exactly do you want from the keeping the bees?
For example, I consider myself a peasant that on a side also would like to have 2-3 hives in a far back corner, for my own consumption needs.
I am too busy to spend much time around them checking for this and for that too often.
Hence are my choices.
Randy Deering
Jun 27, 2016, 3:55:50 PM6/27/16
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My wife and I garden quite a bit, and we thought we would get bees to help the pollinators out. But I think bee keeping is like potato chips. You can 't have just one!
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Randy
Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 4:02:43 PM6/27/16
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I think, Randy, you are a TB-type.
Just stick with it.
:0)
Just stick with it.
:0)
Joseph Bessetti
Jun 27, 2016, 5:14:29 PM6/27/16
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Randy,
Most of the major suppliers (Dadant, Mann Lake, Kelley, etc.) sell small cell (4.9mm) wax foundation. I you haven't wired frames and embedded foundation before I could show you how. People have presented on this at past meetings I believe too.
Mann Lake sells PF100, PF105, PF120, and PF125 plastic frames that are 4.9 mm. Perhaps Rich knows of someone else who sells plastic foundation that measures 4.9mm?
If you start with bees from 5.4mm comb the bees usually draw out Mann Lake frames pretty well, though sometimes they can be a little reluctant to draw it out compared to wax. With wax foundation the larger bees will often re-work it to somewhere around 5.1-5.2 mm at first, but as the bees get smaller they more reliably draw it out. It can be a bit frustrating at first, but if you want to make small bees it can be done. Drawn small cell comb will make them small quicker, but it's hard to buy. There are a few suppliers of small cell packages and nucs too. Of course, with respect to nucs, you have to have standard equipment or you run into issues there too; there aren't many people supplying top bar nucs, and top bar hives aren't standardized like Langs are.
Regards,
Joe
Most of the major suppliers (Dadant, Mann Lake, Kelley, etc.) sell small cell (4.9mm) wax foundation. I you haven't wired frames and embedded foundation before I could show you how. People have presented on this at past meetings I believe too.
Mann Lake sells PF100, PF105, PF120, and PF125 plastic frames that are 4.9 mm. Perhaps Rich knows of someone else who sells plastic foundation that measures 4.9mm?
If you start with bees from 5.4mm comb the bees usually draw out Mann Lake frames pretty well, though sometimes they can be a little reluctant to draw it out compared to wax. With wax foundation the larger bees will often re-work it to somewhere around 5.1-5.2 mm at first, but as the bees get smaller they more reliably draw it out. It can be a bit frustrating at first, but if you want to make small bees it can be done. Drawn small cell comb will make them small quicker, but it's hard to buy. There are a few suppliers of small cell packages and nucs too. Of course, with respect to nucs, you have to have standard equipment or you run into issues there too; there aren't many people supplying top bar nucs, and top bar hives aren't standardized like Langs are.
Regards,
Joe
Greg V
Jun 27, 2016, 5:59:00 PM6/27/16
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Well, if Randy put together a such nice full TB box, it should be trivial for him to hammer together 2-3 compatible nucs from just about any scrap.
For about free.
Building a longer-term hive can be a pretty heavy project.
But hammering together temp hives/nucs - are pretty light takings. I just built one last Sunday again (to keep it under the backyard porch).
Might as well do the "reduce/reuse/recycle" thing while at it.
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 4:14:29 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:
For about free.
Building a longer-term hive can be a pretty heavy project.
But hammering together temp hives/nucs - are pretty light takings. I just built one last Sunday again (to keep it under the backyard porch).
Might as well do the "reduce/reuse/recycle" thing while at it.
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 4:14:29 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:
Randy,
........ there aren't many people supplying top bar nucs, and top bar hives aren't standardized like Langs are.
capitalb...@tds.net
Jun 27, 2016, 8:41:25 PM6/27/16
to madbees
We've built horizontal langs in medium depth for a couple of people (among about 5 other types of hives for both managed and native bees for various companies and customers).
Mary Celley
Jun 27, 2016, 10:41:18 PM6/27/16
to madbees
Bummer Randy. That is the problem with some of these different hives. If you can't add equipment to the top, the one structure for the bees is just not enough. A good hive needs room for expansion! Mary
On Monday, June 27, 2016 at 11:33:46 AM UTC-5, Randy D wrote:
Greg V
Jun 28, 2016, 3:55:43 PM6/28/16
to madbees
Horizontals allow plenty of room for expansion.
You can even set it to "automatic" they will just take more frames as they grow..
Well if they still manage to hit the other wall, then this is on the keeper now. :0)
You can even set it to "automatic" they will just take more frames as they grow..
Well if they still manage to hit the other wall, then this is on the keeper now. :0)
Randy Deering
Jun 28, 2016, 4:05:48 PM6/28/16
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They pretty much DID hit the other wall in my TB. I should have built one with 40 frames eh?
Even though they swarmed, the hive is still bustling with activity. There are even two capped queen cells right next to the viewing window.--
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Greg V
Jun 28, 2016, 4:16:20 PM6/28/16
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Well, then this one WAS on you even in full "automatic" mode.
LOL.
With vertical Lang (or whatever vertical) you can not be fully-automatic.
Need to reload, you know.
Think about it before choosing your next bee-spewing device model.
LOL.
Needed to split them or have empty nucs standing on the perimeter to try to capture the swarm (now feral).
With vertical Lang (or whatever vertical) you can not be fully-automatic.
Need to reload, you know.
Think about it before choosing your next bee-spewing device model.
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