Apple pollination in Wisconsin

[John B]

I was surprised to learn that Wisconsin's native bees do a better job pollinating apple blossoms than honey bees. And, adding honey bee colonies to a Wisconsin apple orchard makes no difference in fruit-set. The research was done by a graduate student at Madison. Here's a link to a talk she gave...

http://wpt.org/University-Place/wisconsin%E2%80%99s-wild-bees

I wonder if the same is true for Wisconsin cranberries.

 

[harold steinberg]

Yes, it is the same for cranberries though many cranberry produces didn’t like the outcome of the research. I posted it to the group about a year ago, you should be able to find it with a search of the group if you go to the group’s home at google.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "madbees" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to madbees+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

H. Adam Steinberg

7904 Bowman Rd

Lodi, WI 53555

608/592-2366

[Greg V]

Not surprised.
I have apples, raspberry patch, gooseberries, currants, etc. 
Plenty of fruit harvest - but no cultured honeybee that I can see this time of the year..
In fact, I need to thin my apples every year to prevent over-cropping (pollination is plenty good).

My property is backing up to a large wild, overgrown easement and wild pollinators do well in it.
Bumble bees are abound on my prop, for example. They pollinate in any kinds of weather (cold, rain, whatever).
That is the key, really.

Honey bee is more of a factor in industrial orchard operations.
They need them since they killed of most of the natural pollinators and destroyed every bit of wild overgrowth for the wild pollinators to live in.
Then they cry out loud of dying honey bees (which are invasive anyway, :) , even though we love em ).

[John B]

Why would cranberry producers not like the outcome of the research? Native bees are free. With honey bees you need to pay the beekeeper to bring them in.

https://sites.google.com/site/tranquilbeekeeping/

[Greg V]

So yea, crying of dying honey bees is bit hypocritical but we hear it because large ag. industry sector of fruit growers makes the noises.
No one is crying of destroying native bees population (since they are less convenient for large-scale pollination).

But also true - the honey bees are highly visible indicator species.
This is a GOOD thing for everyone.
All of a sudden outrages pesticide loads become public knowledge.

On Friday, April 22, 2016 at 8:57:07 AM UTC-5, John B wrote:

[harold steinberg]

First, let me say that I love honeybees. I find them extremely fascinating to watch and work with.

But people have a bit of a grand notion about honeybees. That they are somehow golden. They are part of our local natural flora and fauna. That they are essential for human survival. I’ve heard and read many such statements.

Honeybees are for making honey, and as a side note, they do some pollinating. They are akin to raising cows or pigs. They are all taking resources from the native species of pollinators. Honeybees are an invasive species in Wisconsin.

I grew up on a farm. I purchased acreage as an adult and I have large gardens, raise goats, free-range chickens, free-range turkeys, and honeybees - all of them are taking resources from the native species of plants, animals, and insects. It’s what humans do.

If you read the articles as they were reported after the cranberry study came out, the cranberry farmers had this same grand notion about the honeybees and didn’t like that science was proving it to be fallible.

[John B]

These are very good points Harold. We waste no time condemning garlic mustard and starlings but somehow honey bees are exempt (and glorified).

[harold steinberg]

Something we tend to overlook is that there is no “right" or “wrong" in nature. Plants and animals simply inhabit available niches that they can grow and survive in. The list of plants and animals that do this is endless, and it includes humans. It is part of evolution.

The reason why we condemn garlic mustard and starlings is because it is us, humans, who are propagating these species, and opening up the niches that these species grow and survive in. We are the ones spreading the invasive species (which in turn eliminate native species) and so we need to constantly remind ourselves that our actions on the environment around us are changing the environment around us.

Apply the same logic to pesticides.

[Matthew Hennek]

She bases her conclusion on a sampling technique that may or may not select/deselect for native vs honeybees.  She also failed to quantify the quality of fruit sets: just because an apple develops doesn't mean its fully developed.  I'm not saying she's wrong or that I disagree with her conclusions, but if I was a journal editor these would be the questions I'd be asking.  

[BETSY TRUE]

Right, you’d need to count the seeds in the apple to know how well it was pollinated.

[Greg V]

Apple will not really develop from a flower not properly pollinated.
Fruitlet will just drop off - not much to count there.

[Dale Marsden]

I Agree, apple growers and cranberry growers I know, know what happens if they don't have bees in to pollinate their crops.  With large areas of fruiting trees and plants there aren't enough wild bees out there.  There were a lot on my apricot two weeks ago but I don't see those same pollinators back on my plums and don't see any thing except some of my bees working them.  

Dale

---

From: Matthew Hennek <matthew...@gmail.com>
To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 22, 2016 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Apple pollination in Wisconsin

[Greg V]

Here is a good read for those interested from USDA.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5306468.pdf

The honey bee, remarkable as it is, does not know how to pollinate tomato or

eggplant flowers. It does very poorly compared to native bees when pollinating

many native plants, such as pumpkins, cherries, blueberries, and cranberries.

[Greg V]

Just a copy from the same document:

..........New Brunswick, Canada, years ago when the blueberry crop was nearly wiped out despite the fact that the plants appeared healthy.

It was determined that the program to control the spruce worm in nearby forests had almost eliminated the

native bees. Blueberry farmers started litigation that went all the way to the Supreme Court of Canada. Eventually,

they succeeded in having the Government place restrictions on the use of pesticides. It took a number of years before the local

populations of native bees were restored, and blueberry crops became plentiful once again

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5306468.pdf

So, again if we truly care about the pollination, the #1 is to restore the native, wild bee habitat and stop the chemical war.

The honey bees are nothing more than a part of agricultural business complex, to be honest (and a good hobby).
Yet they are invasive species (just like apples and English sparrows).

[Greg V]

Meanwhile my apple trees are blooming (and plums, and peaches) and the weather are terrible.
The only hope is for bumble bees, flies and the like (the usual spring business in WI).

[Greg V]

To wrap this up:
* weather stays terrible (save for 1-2 days over the weekend)
* my apples are done blooming at 80-90%;
* plums/peaches are done at 95%
* my currants are blooming profusely
* thanks to my backyard bumble bees and some other tiny solitary bees (I observed one teeny-tiny one for a bit another day), I should have some fruit this year (again)
* same old - Apis mellifera species are terrible fruit pollinators in WI
End of story.

[harold steinberg]

Though I agree with Greg V, I just stuck my head out the door to let the dogs pee and my honeybees were flying in and out of the hive. In this light, cold, miserable rain... WOW is all I can say.

I checked my hives this weekend and that particular hive has half a super and part of a deep full of nectar. From our plums, apples, and apricots I guess. What other major nectar source is there right now?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "madbees" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to madbees+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Joseph Bessetti]

Dandelions are probably the major nectar source right now, and likely to be much of what they've brought in the last couple weeks.  I doubt you have enough fruit trees to compare to the amount of dandelions available within a mile or so radius of your hive.
 
Be careful not to equate a honeybee visiting a flower to the flower getting pollinated.  They may not be ideal pollinators, but if you get enough honey bees visiting each flower, they can get it done.   The research suggests that some of the other bees can get the job done more effectively with less visits. 
 
Joe
 

---

From: h.adam.s...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Apple pollination in Wisconsin
Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 14:11:42 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

[harold steinberg]

We have about 25 wild apple trees, hundreds of wild plums out here. If I go near one of the trees when it’s nice outside, the tree is just humming with bees. You can hear the tree from over a hundred feet away. And yes, we have billions of dandelions. :)

On May 10, 2016, at 2:05 PM, Greg V <voro...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "madbees" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to madbees+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Joseph Bessetti]

I've seen the same on wild plums here too; an absolute bee magnet they are. 
 
I really didn't see my bees on apples or cherry blossoms at all this spring.  They were all over the creeping Charlie in my yard though, and busy on dandelions of course.    They usually bring in some blue pollen from a big patch of scilla 1/2 mile away, but I didn't see any of that this year.   Every year seems to be a little different.  It's been cool and that is often said to influence how much nectar various plants produce. 
 
Joe
 

---

From: h.adam.s...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Apple pollination in Wisconsin

Date: Tue, 10 May 2016 14:28:31 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

[GBle...@aol.com]

Strange.  Some of my apples had a few bees on them and some had none that I could see.  I have 1 trillion dandelions and barely ever see a bee on them.  We have a huge flowering crab that is the pink variety by our house entrance and it is covered in bee's along with most of the other flowering crabs in the yard.  For some reason at least in my yard,  they prefer the flowering crabs to the apples.

 

Glenn

[harold steinberg]

same here, they prefer the pink flowering crabs and the wild (horrible, crappy, sour, small) apple trees over the production apple tree varieties.

[Greg V]

BTW..
Are those the Russians that doing anything at all for you?
Russians (in theory) should be going out in cooler weather.


On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 2:11:47 PM UTC-5, H. Adam Steinberg wrote:

Though I agree with Greg V,...............

[Greg V]

Literature says A.m. are really strong at "cost-benefit" approach.
They are not going to waste their time trying to pollinate some less worthy bloom if there are better options.

[Matthew Hennek]

How many hives are you running Greg?

[Greg V]

At the moment - zero.

[Greg V]

But I will say this - as soon as my highly rated (by bees) plants start blooming, the honey bees show up in droves somehow, from somewhere.
Highly rated - mint, catnip, oregano; these are worthwhile to fly for from a distance.
They don't care much about my fruit trees here (cost-benefits analysis is not good).

[harold steinberg]

Yes, they are the Russian hybrids. The Italian hybrids don’t venture out on days like today.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "madbees" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to madbees+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[harold steinberg]

I watched the catnip last year very closely for who was pollinating it. I have it all along the edge of my large garden. The bumble bees LOVE it and they covered it everyday it bloomed from sun up to sun down! The honeybees visited it occasionally, but not all that much.

I need the bumble bees to pollinate my blueberries so I moved about 20 more large catnip plants to my place this spring. I can get it to grow about 6’ x 6’ out here.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "madbees" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to madbees+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Greg V]

Not surprised.
Essentially - ferals.

[Greg V]

So, yes.
A. m. are very preferential when it comes to foraging.
They are definitely looking to have their own "bang-for-the-buck" and will not waste their time and energy on low paying activity.
Large family with job specialties (see bee scouts) affords this.
When a higher paying pasture is found (distance and nectar/pollen load are main factors) they will switch to it away from lower paying pastures.
In fact, bees need to be "trained" in many cases to pollinate what humans need them too if a strong competing pasture pulls bees away.

Another good list of high pay-back forage plants: http://roane.ext.wvu.edu/r/download/93589

[Greg V]

Got busy thinning the fruitlets on my apple trees. It is the time.
Crop is really good on my backyard again regardless of the bad weather we had.
Whatever animals did the job - did it really well.
No honeybees though.
 

[Greg V]

Latest pollination observations...

I walk through the Olin park every day twice (9 AM/5 PM).
Noticed:
* some Italians were working on a patch of sweet clover at 5 PM (none in 9 AM - the Italians are late starters I figure)
* a whole field of white clover right next to the sweet clover is totally ignored (that's the cost/benefit I figure)
* a giant basswood is blooming right next also - totally empty at 9 AM (what is up with this? no basswood honey takers?)

At home my privet hedges are in crazy bloom (the smell is nice but overpowering).
The backyard bumble bees are crazy at work on the hedges but not a single honey bee this year on my hedges; they usually come (I figure there are no honey bees in the area anymore - sad).

[upnorth]

I look every day also for honeybees around my home but have been only seeing bumblebees.  This morning I was pleasantly surprised to see these purple flowers covered with honeybees!  I'm not sure what this perennial is but the bees love it.

--

[Luke N.]

The plant definitely belongs to the mint family which honey bees love.  Have you tasted it?

[Matthew Hennek]

Looks like it might be in the mint or catmint family?  Bee's love mint!

My bee's have also now abandoned the lush groves of dutch/ladino clover that I've provided them and have migrated to something else more productive.  Probably sweet clover or basswood.

I haven't seen as many native bees this year as I did last year.  Last year I had a ton of bumblebees and many other species of native bees.