Feeding fermented honey to the bees

[Marcin]

A friend has about 3/4 of a gallon of honey that has slight fermentation. There's a very thin layer of foam on top, and the taste is a little off, but nowhere near full fermentation. She asked if it could be fed back to the bees. I told her that at the very least skim off the foam layer and set out a small container with some of the honey and see who comes to eat it and how long before it's gone. Would you feed it to your bees?

[Greg V]

I would not give it as-is.

I would heat it up first to pasteurize and see if that helps to evaporate the alcohol out

And maybe even heat to boiling if the smell stays.
Not much to loose at that point and might as well play it safe.

Just recently reused some slightly fermented syrup.
I did boil the hell out of it though - just sugar water; not much to loose.

They took it fine.

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Marcin <mar...@chicagobees.com> wrote:

A friend has about 3/4 of a gallon of honey that has slight fermentation. There's a very thin layer of foam on top, and the taste is a little off, but nowhere near full fermentation. She asked if it could be fed back to the bees. I told her that at the very least skim off the foam layer and set out a small container with some of the honey and see who comes to eat it and how long before it's gone. Would you feed it to your bees?

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[Joseph Bessetti]

I would feed it to a strong hive without hesitation if I had a hive that needed stores for winter, and I would definitely not heat it first! 

Otherwise, I would make mead.

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 4:35 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Feeding fermented honey to the bees

 

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[James]

Are you certain its fermentation, and not just wax/pollen flotsam?  Or, more specifically, was there evidence of gas pressure on the lid?  

[Greg V]

If anything wrong goes into the winter feed, the bees will not even have a chance to go out and poop it out mid-winter.
Then what?
Risky move and why try it.
At least pasteurized honey is no worse then sugar.

I donno.
Google knows best.

On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 4:39:50 PM UTC-5, Joe wrote:

I would feed it to a strong hive without hesitation if I had a hive that needed stores for winter, and I would definitely not heat it first! 

Otherwise, I would make mead.

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 4:35 PM
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Feeding fermented honey to the bees

 

I would not give it as-is.

I would heat it up first to pasteurize and see if that helps to evaporate the alcohol out

And maybe even heat to boiling if the smell stays.
Not much to loose at that point and might as well play it safe.

Just recently reused some slightly fermented syrup.
I did boil the hell out of it though - just sugar water; not much to loose.

They took it fine.

On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Marcin <mar...@chicagobees.com> wrote:

A friend has about 3/4 of a gallon of honey that has slight fermentation. There's a very thin layer of foam on top, and the taste is a little off, but nowhere near full fermentation. She asked if it could be fed back to the bees. I told her that at the very least skim off the foam layer and set out a small container with some of the honey and see who comes to eat it and how long before it's gone. Would you feed it to your bees?

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[mar...@chicagobees.com]

There isn't/wasn't any pressure in the bucket ( she keeps the honey in a 2 gallon bucket ). There isn't any debris in the honey, it was put through a strainer some time ago. There's just a very thin layer of foam on the surface and very light whiff  "fermentation". If it was me I would do what Joe suggested and feed it to the strongest hive over a course of a week/2 weeks.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

If it is fermented a slight amount, the bees will clean it up and make it right well before they need it in winter.  Processing nectar into honey is what bees do as their primary business.  Do you think a hive has never had some nectar ferment in the comb a bit before they finished it?? 

Overheating honey can actually make it toxic to bees.  Sorry Greg.  Try googling hydroxymethylfurfuraldehyde among other things.  I wouldn't eat honey that was heated as you described, and I most certainly wouldn't feed it to bees.  

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>

Sent: Monday, September 19, 2016 7:55 PM
To: madbees

[Greg V]

Joe, good to know about HMF. I need to read up on this and will do so.

However then, IF true that "......Honey held at an ambient temperature of 30°C for 6 months will accumulate as much or more HMF than a similar sample of honey quickly heated to 70°C for 5 minutes and then cooled."    Source: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hmf.html

All that pasteurized honey in the closest grocery store - how do they even sell it to feed people?
Btw, the "sell by dates" are usually going forward for at least 1-2 years forward.
Think of how much HMF will build up by then even at the store temperatures.

At this rate, in fact, unsure if any honey is worth buying...
Again and again, must have your own sound like.

Speaking of the fermented honey, if one has 20-30 hives - just feed it and move on. Agreed.

If one has 1-2 hives of unknown strength - I'd take a safer road and not experiment too much unless must.

In one of the auto-forums I go to - they will not even take a question until Make/Model/Year/Transmission type/etc of the car is specified.
A good approach and is needed here too.

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[Joseph Bessetti]

I wouldn't buy honey from the store.  Not only is it pasteurized, but you can't trust a lot of it to actually be real honey. 

Beyond HMF, heating changes many other things.  If you don't believe that, heat some honey up and taste the difference for yourself.    What is the point?  To kill the yeast that has started fermenting it?  Those are the same natural yeast found in raw honey, found in the hive, the same yeast that will end up in it again.  The yeast will not harm the bees, nor will a little bit of yeast waste-product.

The only risk here is in heating it, i.e. what you might do to change it in a way that could make it harmful.  Heating honey at home to try to pasteurize it is an experiment at best for most beekeepers.

If you want to be 100% "safe", just don't feed it to the bees.  I would gladly feed it to mine as it is. 

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 9:39 AM

To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Feeding fermented honey to the bees

Joe, good to know about HMF. I need to read up on this and will do so.

However then, IF true that "......Honey held at an ambient temperature of 30°C for 6 months will accumulate as much or more HMF than a similar sample of honey quickly heated to 70°C for 5 minutes and then cooled."    Source: http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/hmf.html

Hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) - Dave Cushman www.dave-cushman.net HydroxyMethylFurfural is an aldehyde, whose molecule is illustrated at right, which can be used as an indicator of honey quality limits are set by food standard ...

[Matthew Hennek]

You're going to have to heat it far above 70C for longer than 5 minutes to effectively "distill" any ethanol that's present in the honey.  While the boiling point is close (79C), effective distillation/removal of ethanol will require much higher temperatures.  HMF is just one compound that's formed when heating honey, other compounds formed in the caramelization of honey (darkening observed with heating honey) are also bad.

I'm with Joe, feed it as is.  If the taste is "a little off", it's fine for the bees.  If you set it out, it will be gone very quickly.  Don't put it too close to your hives though as it could induce robbing.  

On Monday, September 19, 2016 at 4:18:56 PM UTC-5, Marcin wrote:

[harold steinberg]

It is very common for bees (and wasps) to feed on fallen (rotting) fruit, which is full of ethanol (and full of natural yeasts).

[Greg V]

So then I want to understand this - is there a connection between fermented honey and bee diarrhea?
Yes/no/depends?

[Joseph Bessetti]

Yes, it is generally believed that fermenting/fermented honey may cause diarrhea.  However, diarrhea or dysentery is typically only a problem when bees aren't able to make cleansing flights, generally during winter.  They hold it in as long as they can, but end up pooping inside the hive if they don't get a warm day.  

By feeding it now, when the bees can eliminate outside the hive as needed, the problem is avoided.  Furthermore, the honey is re-processed by the bees and is no longer at risk of causing issues if/when they eventually do consume it in the dead of winter. 

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Greg V <voro...@gmail.com>

Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2016 11:17 AM
To: madbees
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Feeding fermented honey to the bees

 

So then I want to understand this - is there a connection between fermented honey and bee diarrhea?
Yes/no/depends?

[Paul Zelenski]

Bees detest fermented honey in the hive. If they give gets fermented honey they will sometimes abscond. I have never experimented, but I wonder If it has fermented enough to be dangerous if the bees will avoid it. 

[Greg V]

I looked up HMF a little (and related acrylamide, while at it).

It looks as if you worry about HMF - forget the honey. Honey is peanuts.
You better give up your coffee, bread, baked goods, some dried fruits, etc, etc, etc.
At this rate, I will just live my normal life as before, enjoy my foods, and take my chances with HMF...

Page 803:
https://tice.agroparistech.fr/coursenligne/courses/TESTFIDPES/document/cohort_2011-2013/S1_course_supports_2011_2013/opt_Food_Safety/TD-Tutorial_9th_December/general_documents/Capuano_LWT_2011.pdf?cidReq=TESTFIDPES

Unsure about bees - they don't have much choices in diet unlike Homo sp.
Maybe keeping them away from HMF is a good idea.
Maybe does not matter.
Maybe they drop of trivial diarrhea or mites or Round-Up before they die of HMF.

[James]

I'm still not convinced you're dealing with seriously fermented honey.  I've seen the explosive results of fermented honey.  It's pretty obvious.  A little white gunk on top is hardly something to be concerned with.  

And as for fermented honey in the hive:  People who feed sugar and fondant over the winter will no doubt have dealt with cells containing soggy, fermented sugar crystals.  The smell is distinctive and diagnostic.   It doesn't kill the hive off by any means.  Come spring, they clean it out and move on.  

So if you can find an orderly way to feed it without promoting a robbing frenzy (good luck on that) I'd do that.  Or else make mead or bake with it.  But another option is to close up the bucket in a cool place and save it until spring and feed it then.  That'll confirm whether it's fermenting or not.  But check it regularly.  Cuz when it goes, it can be a sticky spectacular mess.

[Marcin]

Thanks all for the replies and discussion. She decided to feed the honey back to her bees using a frame feeder above the inner cover. Put it on in the evening and by morning the feeder was empty.

[Paul Zelenski]

Sounds about right, if they liked it. Good to hear.