Package bees

[Mary Celley]

I will be selling package bees again at my farm in Brooklyn, WI.  I recommend 3 lb packages especially if you are getting them early.  If you do get them early they should be put on drawn comb. I probably will do 5 loads. I do start early in spring.   I may have nucs also for sale as spring progresses.  Mary

[Paul Zelenski]

Mary, do you know your prices for this year yet?

On Jan 10, 2015, at 8:09 AM, "'Mary Celley' via madbees" <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I will be selling package bees again at my farm in Brooklyn, WI.  I recommend 3 lb packages especially if you are getting them early.  If you do get them early they should be put on drawn comb. I probably will do 5 loads. I do start early in spring.   I may have nucs also for sale as spring progresses.  Mary

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[Mary Celley]

I should know queen prices, nuc prices, and package prices this week.  You can call me at 608-575-2449 or email me at bech...@aol.com.  Those that have ordered already I will be contacting you this week also.   I live 13 miles southeast of Madison, WI

[Clark, Glenn]

By the way what are the packages and Nuc prices?

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[Mary Celley]

The prices for queens will be $30.00, 3 lb packages will be $120.00.  These bees will be from California.  I do not get any bees from the south because they are loaded with the hive beetle.  I have had great success as my many customers with the vendors that supply these bees.  Tomorrow will be a good day to check your bees.  I also will be selling winter patties with essential oils.  Good time to take a peak and take action if needed.  Please either call me at 575-2449 or email at bech...@aol.com.  Thanks to all those that have purchased bees for all these years.  I will continue to sell bees as long as I can see, walk, and remember.   Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Mary Celley]

5 frame nucs will be 160.00. They will have laying queen with eggs, larvae, brood, honey, and pollen stores. If you would like to inspect them before they leave I have no problem with that and come back the next day to pick up. Depending upon spring this will be ready Mid May or so.  I like to have a flow on when making up nucs.

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Susan Hessel]

Mary, I think I might like to try a nuc this year.

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Thanks,

Sue

1.608.669.5439 cell

susan....@unioncab.com

[Mary Celley]

This is what I found on checking my bees yesterday.  Some were incredibly feisty and others were down in the third box with three supers on top. No moisture, no Nosema, which I do not treat for, plenty of honey stores, plenty of bees.  I did lose a few that had started to raise brood.  I'm  beginning to think that when they start laying and a cold snap comes that's when it is not a good deal. Too stressful to keep brood warm and I think too many of the bees separate.  I did do an experiment this year and not sure why, but I did put Thymol on 9 hives. Seven of those died. I will NEVER use it again. I have always used essential oils, fogging, and powdered sugar with amazing results.  I still have hives that are going on three years old and doing great.  I am surprised at how little the colonies have eaten.  This year I did leave extra honey supers which they have not touched.  I had lost 5 hives to robbing this year.  It was Oct. and was still pulling honey.  Certain days that can create a frenzy.  I have heard of numerous hives being robbed out this year.  All in all, my hives are in great shape as of yesterday.  Seven weeks to get through.  So, I'm having a happy weekend.  Sue, I have you down for a nuc.  Glenn, I have you down for 2.  Others that have contacted me I have you on my list. Thanks, Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Larry Lindokken]

Mary--What type of menthol treatment did you use?  Apiguard? When was the treatment completed.   The hives apparently died but why?   Thanks for any information you can provide.

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From: "'Mary Celley' via madbees" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 3:07:34 PM

Subject: [madbees] Re: Package bees

This is what I found on checking my bees yesterday.  Some were incredibly feisty and others were down in the third box with three supers on top. No moisture, no Nosema, which I do not treat for, plenty of honey stores, plenty of bees.  I did lose a few that had started to raise brood.  I'm  beginning to think that when they start laying and a cold snap comes that's when it is not a good deal. Too stressful to keep brood warm and I think too many of the bees separate.  I did do an experiment this year and not sure why, but I did put Thymol on 9 hives. Seven of those died. I will NEVER use it again. I have always used essential oils, fogging, and powdered sugar with amazing results.  I still have hives that are going on three years old and doing great.  I am surprised at how little the colonies have eaten.  This year I did leave extra honey supers which they have not touched.  I had lost 5 hives to robbing this year.  It was Oct. and was still pulling honey.  Certain days that can create a frenzy.  I have heard of numerous hives being robbed out this year.  All in all, my hives are in great shape as of yesterday.  Seven weeks to get through.  So, I'm having a happy weekend.  Sue, I have you down for a nuc.  Glenn, I have you down for 2.  Others that have contacted me I have you on my list. Thanks, Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

I will be selling package bees again at my farm in Brooklyn, WI.  I recommend 3 lb packages especially if you are getting them early.  If you do get them early they should be put on drawn comb. I probably will do 5 loads. I do start early in spring.   I may have nucs also for sale as spring progresses.  Mary

[Mary Celley]

Hi Larry, I don't use chemicals and I think it was Apiguard.  I put it on in October because I was still pulling honey.  I can still smell the stuff in those hives.  Maybe they got a super dose of it.  Like I said, I never use chemicals and have had great success  with my methods. I had pulled all the honey off those hives and for some dumb reason thought I would try it.  I figured since it was menthol it would not have any ill effects.  I guess my bees like being organic. Thanks goodness I just put it on 9 hives.  Anyway, never again.

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Larry Lindokken]

I'm thinking the menthol was part of what happened.  Once the honey was removed the bees used the honey left and then promptly died because they became short of feed.

 

---

From: "Larry Lindokken" <lin...@tds.net>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2015 3:12:45 PM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Package bees

[Mary Celley]

It wasn't a lack of honey.  This year I made sure I left everyone more surplus than ever.  I was working really fast that day and I will to go through all my hives that have died and I will go deeper into those hives that had the treatment. I had left moisture boards on and maybe that was a contributing issue. Maybe it kept the menthol in too well.  I just know, I will never use it again and will continue with my alternative ways.  It was a tad cold that day but I'm making sure survival will happen with the hives that are alive. With robbing in fall, early brood raising and colonies dying from that, and the menthol treatment I have lost 20 percent of my hives this year.  I have a hundred colonies.  It is still a long season, so all I can do is hope the ones alive continue on this good path.  It is expensive to stay in business.  Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Paul Zelenski]

Not to be critical, but I think treating in October sounds too late. At that point the bees have already raised their winter bees. If the mite level was high the damage had already been done. I'm not sure why it would be harmful, but it sounds plausible that the moisture board would absorb thymol and basically keep treating much longer. I could see how that might be detrimental. 

I also have no evidence, but it seemed that my hive in Madison started getting robbed heavily when I put the thymol treatment on. It could just be a coincidence, or the thymol interrupted their communication and made it harder to defend or easier for the robbing bees to identify. It didn't seem to happen at my house, but those hives all get treated at the same time. Something I'll watch for I. The future. 

Could you tell us more about your normal essential oil treatment? What do you do? When? What is your normal success rate? Do you measure mites before and after? If so, what kind of reduction do you see? 

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[Mary Celley]

The reason I treated so late was that I had so much honey on all my hives and it was not all pulled.  Mite level very low to non existent in my bees.  I treated these bees because I had it laying around which in hindsight is not a good reason and thought if tracheal mite was around I would see if it was effective as an experiment.  These hives were a little slow.  Anyway, the good news is the hives alive now are healthy as ever, full of food sources, no moisture or disease.  I fog my bees with mineral oil and different essential oils.  I also throw powered sugar on them.  I also make up sugar patties with special ingredients.  The  more I think about it I should have taken off those moisture boards.  It kept the menthol at high levels.  Guess I'm still learning after 35 yrs of beekeeping.  Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Paul Zelenski]

Did you treat with menthol or thymol?

Glad to hear the rest of your hives are healthy. 

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[Mary Celley]

It was thymol.  More losses coming in.  Another factor is bees on old comb, meaning several year old comb are dying.  More of bees separating from cluster and not getting back, with lots of honey in hives.  I forgot to mention too that these bees I sell are certified and inspected.  If people need more info I post on my Facebook page Bee Charmer - Bee Keeper.  Get out and check your bees before the weather changes.  I'm afraid losses are going to start piling up rapidly.

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Sarah Castello]

Mary,

Do you have any guesses as to why bees on old comb are dying - disease organisms harbored in the old comb perhaps?

Thanks Mary,

Sarah

From: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Thursday, January 29, 2015 11:47 AM
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [madbees] Re: Package bees

--

[Joseph Bessetti]

I wouldn't really expect old comb to harbor disease any more or less than new comb.  But if it were disease, then you expect to see some kind of evidence of disease in the bees if that's what killed them. 
 
Many pesticides are known to build up in wax, including fluvalinate and coumaphos, but also many herbicides and insecticides.   Some chemicals are believed to affect the colony's ability to regulate cluster temperature.  Death due to exposure to a toxin doesn't leave much evidence on the bees in winter, especially if the toxin levels are sub-acute and the mode of toxicity is through disruption of key hormone/endocrine or molecular signaling pathways.
 
Just speculating.
 
Joe
 

---

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:56:53 +0000
From: sarah.c...@wisc.edu

Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Package bees

To: mad...@googlegroups.com

[Mary Celley]

I personally think it is succession of brood being laid and the cells getting smaller and smaller each time. I'm beginning to wonder when the queen goes over the cell and gets ready to lay an egg via ovipositor and it does not seem right  she will not lay an egg in there.  Also, when the cell gets so small the bee does not have enough time to develop properly.  That is my gut feeling on this.  Many people now are going on a 7 year cycle with changing out comb.  When you think about it, may critters rely on 7 year cycles.  I know I have some comb that is old but in good shape, however, the cells do get smaller every year. The numbers of death are climbing.  Most of the hives have plenty of food storages but have started to lay brood.  Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Joseph Bessetti]

I have never heard of this being a problem.  Saw some pretty old combs black with cocoons and visibly smaller as a result, just as you describe.  Some of those combs are easily 10 or 20 years in use, but the bees go on.   I've also regressed bees from 5.4 mm cells to 4.9 mm cells in a single season.   The queen preferred to keep laying in the larger cells.  Eventually they superceded her and the smaller bees raise a smaller queen better matched to the smaller cells.  This is discussed regularly in the small cell beekeeping circles.  This regression process is a much bigger difference in size than a few years of cacoons in brood comb.  The smaller cells result in a smaller worker bee, but the larvae go through the same number of molts, same development stages just in less time.  I hear about bees drawing natural foundationless worker comb 4.6mm to 5.0mm regularly; never hear of any colony losses over it.
 
I have no doubt there's an explanation and I like that you and a few others are thinking on it; I just can't see it being related to reduced cell size with the experience I have on that subject.
 
The role of wax comb in the colony is a fascinating subject.  The fact that is can sequester toxins away from the bees, essentially absorbing them directly out of nectar or bee food is a valuable asset to the bees.  If a wild colony dies and a swarm doesn't move in the next summer, wax moths usually completely destroy the comb in a season, and with it go the toxins that could have been building up for years and years.  A new colony starts fresh with all new wax.  Bees don't have a very well adapted/complex detoxification system, which is probably related to the role the wax in their colonies play and less need for the bees to detoxify many chemicals that may be found at low levels in nectar but become more concentrated in finished honey.
 
Joe
 
 
 
 
 

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:24:09 -0800
From: mad...@googlegroups.com
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [madbees] Re: Package bees

I personally think it is succession of brood being laid and the cells getting smaller and smaller each time. I'm beginning to wonder when the queen goes over the cell and gets ready to lay an egg via ovipositor and it does not seem right  she will not lay an egg in there.  Also, when the cell gets so small the bee does not have enough time to develop properly.  That is my gut feeling on this.  Many people now are going on a 7 year cycle with changing out comb.  When you think about it, may critters rely on 7 year cycles.  I know I have some comb that is old but in good shape, however, the cells do get smaller every year. The numbers of death are climbing.  Most of the hives have plenty of food storages but have started to lay brood.  Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

I will be selling package bees again at my farm in Brooklyn, WI.  I recommend 3 lb packages especially if you are getting them early.  If you do get them early they should be put on drawn comb. I probably will do 5 loads. I do start early in spring.   I may have nucs also for sale as spring progresses.  Mary

[Mary Celley]

Yep, I'm just posting what I am hearing. Some big commercial  guys are reporting old comb hives are dead with plenty of honey stores where as newer comb hives 100 percent alive. It is really fascinating what is going on this year.  I'm still getting reports about dead hives raising brood with plenty of honey.  Hives robbed out in fall too was a huge problem.  I will check mine again after this next cold spell.  Also, many of the bees that are alive are in the upper box are what people are reporting.  Never a dull moment.  I will be curious to see how bees fair that have been wrapped.  I do not wrap mine but do put moisture  boards on top.  Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Joseph Bessetti]

I put upper entrances on my hives this year.  I can peak in quick to see if the bees are on top without opening anything, so I check them frequently.  All had honey in the top box and were clustered in the box below or in the lower half of the deep frames of the top box with honey in the frames above them going into November.  All through November and most of December I never saw bees clustered on the inner cover.  However, when we had that warm spell the couple days after Christmas every colony started clustering in the top box over the top bars and against the inner cover and has been there every day since despite having stores below.   I'm concerned that as they consume stores in the top box they'll be reluctant to move back down and could starve out during an extended cold spell, with ample stores just below them.  Lost a couple hives that way last year, but I hadn't re-organized them to put stores in the top box like I did this year.  
 
I think those couple days in the mid 40s in late December (after the solstice) could have been the trigger to move them up, but I don't have enough experience to be sure yet. 
 
Joe 
 

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 14:24:09 -0800
From: mad...@googlegroups.com
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [madbees] Re: Package bees

I personally think it is succession of brood being laid and the cells getting smaller and smaller each time. I'm beginning to wonder when the queen goes over the cell and gets ready to lay an egg via ovipositor and it does not seem right  she will not lay an egg in there.  Also, when the cell gets so small the bee does not have enough time to develop properly.  That is my gut feeling on this.  Many people now are going on a 7 year cycle with changing out comb.  When you think about it, may critters rely on 7 year cycles.  I know I have some comb that is old but in good shape, however, the cells do get smaller every year. The numbers of death are climbing.  Most of the hives have plenty of food storages but have started to lay brood.  Mary

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

I will be selling package bees again at my farm in Brooklyn, WI.  I recommend 3 lb packages especially if you are getting them early.  If you do get them early they should be put on drawn comb. I probably will do 5 loads. I do start early in spring.   I may have nucs also for sale as spring progresses.  Mary

[Dan Curran]

"I wouldn't really expect old comb to harbor disease any more or less than new comb.  But if it were disease, then you expect to see some kind of evidence of disease in the bees if that's what killed them."

Sure, American Foulbrood spores and scale build up in old comb. Regular comb replacement is a best management practice for the prevention of AFB. See here:

http://beeinformed.org/2013/10/american-foulbrood-afb/

In addition, what about Nosema? Looks like Nosema apis spores are transmitted through old comb, but who knows with our current form of Nosema--the jury seems to be out on that still...

https://hal.inria.fr/file/index/docid/890753/filename/hal-00890753.pdf

When we are dealing with microorganisms, it seems very plausible that contaminated brood comb can transmit these diseases to our bees, as spores are very hardy and remain viable over time.

Dan

[Joseph Bessetti]

Ever lose a hive from nosema or AFB and not see evidence of it?  I guess we wouldn't know--no evidence.  Ghost disease in my old comb killed my hive without a trace... must have been AFB.  Just doesn't add up, and it's not a practical way to go about trying to figure out what is killing hives.
 
I try to be practical in my approach to evaluating and troubleshooting a problem.  If the evidence doesn't support a hypothesis, I'm going to look for a cause that is consistent with the evidence that I have.  That scientific process you've reminded us about on several occasions.   It's not very plausible to me that a hive died of nosema or AFB unless there's evidence of such.  The information you share here is good Dan, but it doesn't match.  Maybe there was evidence and it wasn't reported or passed on. 
 
If my input on these subjects isn't appreciated, then just say so and I'll waste my time somewhere else.
 
Joe
 

 

---

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 16:40:27 -0800
From: curr...@gmail.com
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

[scott roberts]

I think if comb is a problem it is the buildup of insecticides and that is what is killing the bees.

Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3

[Mary Celley]

My impression is that it is not nosema nor foul brood killing these hives. I know for sure mine have neither of these issues.  As for the commercial people there is no way they could stay in business with foul brood or nosema.  We are all just trying to figure this out.  

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

[Joseph Bessetti]

Someone losing colonies under these circumstances should collect samples of bees to be tested for disease, samples of wax for chemical/pesticide analysis, and samples of the honey near the dead cluster for same chemical/pesticide analysis.  I'd also take samples of bees, wax, and honey from several living colonies/with newer comb. 
 
There need to be resources available to investigate these kinds of losses to try to start to tie them to something.  There have to be academic and government labs equipped to do this kind of work, especially with all the CCD money being burned through.
 
Joe
 

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Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 18:08:27 -0800
From: mad...@googlegroups.com
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [madbees] Re: Package bees

My impression is that it is not nosema nor foul brood killing these hives. I know for sure mine have neither of these issues.  As for the commercial people there is no way they could stay in business with foul brood or nosema.  We are all just trying to figure this out.  

On Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 8:09:49 AM UTC-6, Mary Celley wrote:

I will be selling package bees again at my farm in Brooklyn, WI.  I recommend 3 lb packages especially if you are getting them early.  If you do get them early they should be put on drawn comb. I probably will do 5 loads. I do start early in spring.   I may have nucs also for sale as spring progresses.  Mary

[Mary Celley]

Part of the problem is the cost of analysis. I think if I remember right it is 350.00 per hive.  So, that puts the commercial people out.  It is a mystery as to why all these non diseased and healthy looking colonies on older comb dying.  It is getting more and more expensive to stay in business.  Especially if now older combs are contributing to the collapse of colonies.  Another reason to get bees that are certified and inspected for mites and disease.  Have to start out healthy to even stand a chance. Mary......... One could take it even further, how do urban bees fair to rural bees?  However, many urban bees are subject to people spraying their yards with herbicides and pesticides.  On a happy note, lets hope the ones that are alive continue to stay alive and healthy.

[kac...@gmail.com]

FREE analysis
http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=7472

[Mary Celley]

People are wondering if I am still taking orders and I am.  Check your hives as soon as you can.  If they need help give it to them.  Email me or call me at 575-2449  Mary

[Matthew Hennek]

Such chemical analysis will cost MUCH more than $350 (and definitely not free...USDA does disease analysis not chemical). Depending on the method and cost of standards, we're talking several thousand dollars to have done and analyzed by a private lab.

Even if a trace amount is found, correlation is not causation.

We can debate it until we are blue in the face but it's not going to do a lick of good. Switching out combs on a schedule like William Palmer described seems like a good mitigation.

[Luke N.]

I had thought about partnering with UW to have wax tested for chemicals
as they had the instrumentation sitting there and I am qualified to use
it. This idea was prompted by a call for a list of community services
or community projects that any department took part in. As UW receives
a great deal of government funding they are sometimes accountable to
provide examples of community support. I don't think it would be hard
for the right person to enlist help from the university. Now that I
live in VA I can no longer have a connection for testing wax.

While noting the difference between correlation and causation is
important in science, in agriculture it becomes far less important. A
correlation between poison in wax and high hive die offs would prompt
any beekeeper to remove poisoned wax from their hives regardless if that
is the direct cause of the die offs or not. The scientific method is
important, but so is common sense.

[Mary Celley]

Yes, what I remember is that it is unfortunately, cost prohibited for everyone.  After this cold spell good idea to check your bees.  The next 5 weeks or so are critical. If you have ordered bees from me please send your deposit.  Winter losses are piling up from what I am hearing.

[Mary Celley]

Want to let everyone know that I will be gone from Feb.10th until Feb. 23rd.  If you order bees from me please email me and or send $20.00 deposit per package.  I will try and check my email if there is service.  If I don't respond immediately  I will eventually.  It is suppose to be in high 30's, once again a good time to check bees and take action if needed.  In your email let me know how many and a contact number and if you want on early loads or later loads.  Thanks, Mary

[Mary Celley]

Of course right before I am leaving my phone is acting up.  I will leave my number and a friend's number.  Mine is 608-575-2449 friend's number is 608-444-1489.  My email address is bech...@aol.com.  If I don't respond right away it is because I am having too much fun.  Best tho, to let me know as soon as possible if you need bees.  Thanks, Mary........I see another cold spell is coming.  Hopefully, it will not last too long.

[Rachel monona]

Mary,

Would you put me down for 1 3 lb package of bees with queen please.
Thanks,
Rachel

[Mary Celley]

I am back from vacation and if anyone has called me in the last few days I did not get it because my phone saw ocean time, meaning in my pocket while snorkeling.  I hope to get a new phone today.  If you left me a message I'm not sure I can retrieve it so email me at bech...@aol.com.  I have heard the weather has been horrible back here and best to check your bees as soon as possible.  

[Mary Celley]

New phone up and running. 608-575-2449.  Next 5 weeks are critical in keeping your bees alive.   They have to have food.  If you need bees let me know sooner than later.  Getting orders from all over the midwest.  Mary

[Michael Schael - cambridge]

I am curious how early it can be before one thinks abt
splitting a hive.

My one hive made through the winter and surprisingly,
quite well. At a feeding station I've set up, seems like
most of the bees are new; all hairy, non-beat up wings and
light in color. The entrance, though reduced, looks like a
June day.

I'm not talking about right now but thought I might wait
until the Dandelions are in bloom. I really don't want the
hive to swarm but know that one can't always prevent it.

Thanks

[Dale Marsden]

You hit it right. When the dandelions are in bloom you can start splitting to prevent swarming.  They really need to build up to a strong colony with 6 to 8 frames of brood before you split them.  

If you feel you need to split them sooner make sure you are feeding them a light syrup and introduce a new queen into the queenless half. 

Dale

---

From: Michael Schael - cambridge <msc...@smallbytes.net>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 13, 2015 3:18 PM
Subject: [madbees] Splitting a hive/preventing a swarm

Thanks

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[Math Heinzel]

Hi, Mary

Could I get a couple of packages (2,  3#) from you this spring?  I got a 3# package from you last Spring, they died over the winter.  They were alive at the January Thaw…

Math

Math Heinzel

(608) 44-4-9406

ma...@hedgecroft.net

"We are all affecting the world every moment, whether we mean to or not. Our actions and states of mind matter, because we are so deeply interconnected with one another." 
— Ram Dass

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