Flow hive

[Mary Celley]

So, a customer brought out her Flow Hive to me yesterday.  This is what she got for just under 800.00. One 8 frame brood box with frames and NO foundation.  8 frame screened bottom board, a gabled top, and the 6 frame super that cranks.  Do these folks really think people will be successful putting a package bee in a box with just frames? Especially, on these cool nights!???? And, only 1 brood box?  Holy cats.  I helped modify a 10 frame brood chamber for her with frames and foundation.  She had glued the cleat into the bottom bar of frame so they were useless.  I'm afraid there are going to be a lot of disappointed people around the world.  But two are awful happy.  I need say no more.  Mary

[Matthew Hennek]

Yikes.  That's crazy.  I know some people go foundationless and others start top-bar hives with packages without any comb/foundation, but it seems like it's much more difficult especially for a first time beekeeper.  Right or wrong, almost all of the major suppliers (including CBS) sell "starter" hives that only have 1 brood box. 

Now that it's getting into the marketplace, I've been watching some Youtube reviews and one at least was complaining about their substandard quality control.  Apparently they shorted him several required screws, some screws were the wrong size, and the boxes didn't fit together without modification.  I also will be interested to see how these things fare after years and years of use.  I can see them getting clogged up with wax and the small plastic cells becoming embrittled and breaking off.

Here's the review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVN6RYC-bcQ

It's definitely an interesting and very expensive contraption, but I'm concerned that they've marketed it in a way that I think will bring in a lot of new beekeepers but not give them the tools to succeed.  Like many have said, whether they intended it or not, they mis-marketed the flow hive as a miracle contraption where all you have to do is put your bee's in and then harvest honey.......

It's a good thing that your customer had you as a package supplier Mary because I don't think most package suppliers would go that extra mile to not only ask all the questions you did and help her get going. Some might, but not all. 

It's kind of a pointless device for those in this club since we can rent clubs or CBS's extractor for only $25 or $35 (I forgot which).  That's literally decades of rentals to recoup the costs of just one of those flow hives (which I doubt will last decades).  Honestly though, I do find them interesting and hope they work out and become less expensive with volume.  Extracting only 1 or 2 supers is a real hassle and if these things truly do work and are durable, I'd be interested (just not at $800!).  

[Tim Aure]

And add to that, verora, nosema, swarming, winter losses, how to split as the hive grows?

Buy another $800.00 hive? etc.

Sad...naiveté 

Sent from my iPhon

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "madbees" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to madbees+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Clark, Glenn]

Hello,

 

I feel sorry for that person spending so much money for nothing; $800.00

 

I also received a  good package of bee from Mary Celley.

 

Glenn Clark

--

[Marty VanHaren]

A friend in Florida has two. He just bought the deep box with the flow frames. Last week he said they were full and he was going to do his first harvest. I haven't heard how it went or how much honey he harvested.

Another friend here in the area bought the same deep setup, just the box with flow frames, and crank. He was just intrigued. He wanted hives but had no other equipment. I got him set up with new hive equipment from Rich at Cap city bee supply. He loaned me the flow box to try on one of my established over wintered hives. I don't have any interest in using it long term, just an experiment.

I put it on a hive with two deep brood boxes, with brood showing in Feb, two supers, the lower super was about 2/3s eaten last weekend the bees were pretty heavy in the top, with openings in the supers.

I put the flow frame box on, with a queen excluder under it( probably not needed due to the full honey super under it), which I plan to pull soon. Some bees are investigating it but the excluder may be inhibiting them from working it. More likely, we are still a few weeks to a month out from a strong honey flow.

I plan on leaving the hive as is all season. Harvesting the flow box when, and if, it fills. Then removing it for the winter.

Next year it will go back to my friend for one of the hives we set at his place.

[Paul Zelenski]

I think we are all intrigued, even if we are unwilling/unable to sped that kind of money on a hive. I feel like there will be problems with wax and propolis and such in the long term, but am still very curious. Please keep us updated on how it works. It is also unfortunate, but not unexpected that newbees will have bought this thinking it was the complete setup and be disappointed. I suspect there are people every year that jump into beekeeping without sufficient knowledge and equipment.

[Randy Deering]

I wouldn't call it nothing. It's very innovative, and that's where most great things start. Ideas and thinking outside the box. It may seem like it won't work, or is too expensive for most of us, but don't knock someone for trying to improve something just because you may not share their vision.

Be supportive, not destructive in others endeavors. If you don't like it, don't buy one.

Just my two cents worth.

--

Randy

[Mary Celley]

Marty, I will be curious to see how it does and how long it will function properly.  People spent a lot of money on something I'm not sure they had all the kinks worked out of yet.  Also, I came across where the boxes don't fit together right.  What I have seen is not hand crafted the way I think it should be for that price.    I have a feeling they got someone to mass produce because of high interest.  So, once mass production happens often quality suffers.  Even the screws were not right.  Oh well, I guess it has created quite the buzz.  Anyway, keep me posted.  You know where I am.  Mary

On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 7:01:37 AM UTC-5, Mary Celley wrote:

[Clark, Glenn]

You’re  right, me myself,  I think I take my $800.00 and go on vacation.

[Randy Deering]

I hear ya Glenn. I maybe spent $75 in wood and built my TB hive. Now I need to make a couple of REAL hives. LOL.

[jeanne hansen]

Keep in mind, it isn't the entire hive that flows, it is only the honey super.  Since one flow-hive honey frame costs $40, twenty of them in 2 supers comes to $800.  The brood chamber of the hive in in addition to that, and is as normal for colony growth, swarming and splitting.

 

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

---

From: Tim Aure <timoth...@gmail.com>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Flow hive

[Matthew Hennek]

Jeanne

More expensive than $40/frame.

The frames are a bit wider than normal frames (7 per 10 frame Lang box max) and requires a specialized super box. Cost for just the super with 7 frames: $527. Or buy modify your own box and buy just the frames $447 for 7 frames.

They sell a "complete" hive with 1 flow super (6 flow frames), 1 brood box (normal 8 frame Lang), a fancy top for $700. This sounds like what the lady Mary was talking about had.

[Marty VanHaren]

I am open to holding a monthly meeting at my place. There is plenty of parking and lots of room in th shade. If we do it in July or August, the flow super should be full. We could all watch while I try the first harvest from it.

[Marty VanHaren]

Also, I watched the video of some fellow doing a thurough evaluation of his flow right out of the box there were issues with missing screws and ill fitting wood joints.
The fellow commented on the position of the comb sections being odd. He had not used the "flow key" to put the comb section halfway in the bee filling position. I cycled one one I have several times to determine how the honey would flow.mbasically if you picture a single frame of standard Langroth hive honey, looking at it from the "front" one side shifts up,or down in relation to the other side of what would be the foundation. Each cell then empties straight down to the bottom. There is a need to TILT the hive 2.5 degrees for harvest. The bottom board supplied by Flow is designed with that angle.

Glad I watched the video, I'll have to remember to tilt the hive while collecting from the flow frames.
I checked out another short video, pretty sure it was a promo, they harvested over 6 pounds of honey from each of 2 frames. 6x7 makes for over 40 pounds. Even at $5 a pound it would take several years to recoup your investment. This fact alone points to a hobbyist. If you use these and harvested twice before winter and planned to put in fresh packages each spring. You would still be ahead $250. Or have 80 pounds of your own honey to us for the next year. Just thinking.

[capitalb...@tds.net]

The production work on the boxes is being done by the outfit that was on the Shark Tank TV show that builds cedar top bar hives and a small number of langs. The Flow people wanted cedar hive bodies and needed around 40,000 of them relatively quickly to fill the orders they committed to in the fund raising. To put it in perspective Western Bee cuts around 60,000 boxes a year on their two machines. Brushy Mtn, and Contract Pros can cut 20,000 a year each, we can run 18000 if we only cut 10 frame wide boxes....so to find someone to cut 40,000 boxes who isn't already swamped with standard bee equipment, someone who will also mess around with the special cuts to accommodate the drain for the Flow frames in the supers, laser engrave various parts and pack all this for shipping is the first challenge....and the outfit they chose wasn't setup for that volume at all in langstroth equipment and are doing a lot of it by brute force. Then to find all the nice wide relatively clear cedar and cedar lap siding is the second (40,000 boxes alone is 40,000 planks, then the bottoms, roofs, etc take up another 5000 plus narrow planks and lap profile siding).....

Rich

[Mary Celley]

Yes, and it shows up in the product.  A rush job usually has it's flaws. The two really happy guys are the guys in the outback or is it the down under.  Where ever they are in Australia.  They got millions out of people just to donate to their cause.  Mary

On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 7:01:37 AM UTC-5, Mary Celley wrote:

[Matthew Hennek]

Hey rich

Does one need a specialized cnc for Lang box production or can any high end woodworking cnc with a feeder work?

Sourcing all that cedar of the required quality/dimensions on their required timeline must have been an absolute nightmare. Being in a completely different industry myself, but one that requires literally tons and tons of specialized material per year, I can empathize.

[William Palmer]

Just ask Walter Kelly or Mann Lake or any of the makers of bee boxes and frames, Where do you get the good wood.  This is one of the hardest resources to obtain.  We all want clear light pine. Knots mean the tree had branches.Most trees do.  Some things can bee made if you have the time and equipment. Good quality wooden ware pay for itself in the long run.

                    Just my opinion,                WEP    East Troy Honey.

[Nate Vack]

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 3:51 PM 'jeanne hansen' via madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Keep in mind, it isn't the entire hive that flows, it is only the honey super.

Though you have to admit... trying to get the brood to flow out the little tube would be pretty funny.

-n

[capitalb...@tds.net]

They have to be customized/purpose built in order to do any significant volume.

[capitalb...@tds.net]

Yes and talking with one of our lumber suppliers today they told me that wide, clearer western red cedar is getting hard to obtain since the source trees are depleted (and along those lines we scratched our heads as to what happened with the replanting programs to assure long term supply, where they displaced by high value lumber, development,????).  He went on to say that all western red cedar has been slowly going up in price and expected substantial increases down the road. The eastern white cedar tree is too small for wide plank and is a lot knottier.

[jeanne hansen]

Rich,

Thanks for this VERY interesting article on building hive bodies.  If one wood shop can turn out "only" 20,000 Hive bodies a year, but Lee Heine brings 20,000 packages of bees to Wisconsin alone. . . .

The numbers become mind-boggling in a hurry.  Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

---

From: "capitalb...@tds.net" <capitalb...@tds.net>
To: madbees <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 4, 2016 9:33 PM
Subject: [madbees] Re: Flow hive

--

[Greg V]

So much for sustainability talks.....
I say responsible keepers should not be supporting this activity (bees don't care either about living in red wood boxes).

......... western red cedar is getting hard to obtain since the source trees are depleted ...........

[Paul Reith]

Way off topic from the flow hive, but...

Managed forests are not going to yield many, 12" clear boards. select-cut, narrower width boards glued properly are the next step. Thay stand up as well, warp less, and will eventually be the norm as 12" boards become too expensive.

20% of my stock is like this, but because i've ripped off the bottom or top to repair a super with glue instead of tossing it.

Titebond III is wonderful stuff.

Instead of thinking glued boards aren't as pretty, think of them as sustainable, and prettier because of it!

Paul

[Matthew Hennek]

+1 on Titebond III

Great stuff!

Saw Marty's Flow Hive yesterday.  Pretty neat.  It'll be interesting to see how well the bees fill it up.  

[Jo Sommers]

On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 5:32:05 PM UTC-5, Marty VanHaren wrote:

I am open to holding a monthly meeting at my place. There is plenty of parking and lots of room in th shade. If we do it in July or August, the flow super should be full. We could all watch while I try the first harvest from it.

I would like to see this at a meeting.