Fwd: Pandemonium

[Michael Haeger]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Michael Haeger" <mh...@gbpinc.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2015 5:37 PM
Subject: Fwd: Pandemonium
To: <MHaege...@gmail.com>
Cc:

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Michael Haeger" <mh...@gbpinc.com>
Date: Sep 27, 2015 5:23 PM
Subject: Pandemonium
To: <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Cc:

Thoughts on this ? Looks like swarming , but it's not , and increasingly looks like a war with wax particles appearing below the hive . It seems like ribbing , a war , but it's a big healthy hive . I sealed the entrances,  smoked it , but the brouhaha continues unabated.  Ideas ?

There are lots of bees everywhere,  some distance from the hive as well

[lin...@tds.net]

If bees are coming from all directions its queenless.  The bees could be cleaning out the drones but most likely the hive is being robbed.  Larry     You may want to tear down the hive and look at the brood see if eggs and brood are worker or just dronelike.   What was your varroa treatment schedule?

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From: "Michael Haeger" <mhaege...@gmail.com>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, September 27, 2015 5:38:20 PM
Subject: [madbees] Fwd: Pandemonium

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[Michael Haeger]

They were tossing out drones the other day . It really looks like a war and it started this morning . It's been fine , then this

[Michael Haeger]

So if the activity has toned down,  safe to open the hive again?  What are the chances the robbers return ?

[Michael Haeger]

Anybody got any thoughts,  experience with something like this  ? Heading back up to the hive this morning,  so I'd appreciate any input.  Wondering if I should leave the hive sealed up with restricted access,  or whatever?

Obviously I have to check it out,  but it seemed all good a couple weeks ago .

Thanks for any ideas in advance.  MH

[Patrick Norby]

I had something that looked just like this two years ago.  The hive was being robbed out (all the wax particles I assume were the caps being chewed off the honey stores).

Mine were primarily being robbed by yellow jackets - they seem to chew up the cels a bit more jaggedly and make a mess.

If it's anything like my experience you're probably too late - there aren't many of your own bees left in that hive and all the activity is invaders. 

If pop it open and check for brood before anything.

Patrick

Sent from my iPhone.

[Paul Zelenski]

I haven't been able to look at the pic, but your description sounds like it is definitely robbing. If there is fighting and wax particles under the hive, you are definitely being robbed.  You can't leave the hive closed completely forever. So, you'll have to open the entrances sometime. But, open very small entrances, preferably only big enough for one bee. That will give your hive a chance to defend itself, if it is strong enough to do so. The robbers will be back. Once they have some success, they don't give up easily. Hopefully they haven't weakened the hive so much that they can't defend. Depending on the hive and configuration, it might be good to remove unused comb so the bees have less space to defend,  but doing any type of inspection is not going to go well. If you open the hive, the robbers will just use it as a chance to get inside. If you do feel that you need to rearrange or look for evidence of your queen, do your inspection in the early morning before the robbers get too active. 

Robbing has been very bad this year. I think it is due to the warm weather after the nectar sources are gone. I was disappointed by the coming cold, since I still have some feeding and treatments to do, but at least it should slow some of the robbing. 

[Michael Haeger]

Thanks

[Michael Haeger]

I'll know in the next few hours . The smaller hive next to it seemed fine , but I'll have to dig into that as well . Bummer , if true ,as it was a big and seemingly successful hive

[Michael Haeger]

...so robbed out , hive is totalled and about 100-120lbs of honey is gone.

Larger question here , the hive next to it , which us smaller,  doesn't appear to be subject to attack.  I am loathe to pop the hive while the marauders are still about , but am anxious to know how it's doing. 

Details regarding that hive , entrance is restricted,  the super openings have been corked , except one , so that leaves just the small winter hole it the top board .

Assuming the invaders hang out for the rest of the day , any advice regarding the neighboring hive ?

[Paul Zelenski]

My advice would be to not open it. Opening it will allow the marauders in and they may decide they can over-power the bees and rob it as well. I can't imagine anything you can do to help that hive that would be better than leaving them be. It would really be for your curiosity to open them. Restricted entrances are important, which it sounds like you already have. 

[James]

Robbing HAS been bad this year.  And I don't know if its related or not, but hive beetles have been really bad this year.  I've noticed that every hive I lost to robbing also had a nascent hive beetle population, even though the hives appeared to be quite strong.  They say that robbing and hive beetles both happen to weak hives, so maybe the robbers are doing a painful favor for us.  Either way, I think I need to adjust my management practices next year to take beetles more into account.  Just have to figure out exactly what to do.

[Michael Haeger]

Yup . Thinking the other hive is okay based on what I can tell.  Got advice to let them finish the job and hopefully that will satiate them and they'll leave . Tomorrow I'll check on the next door neighboring hive .

Any thoughts as to why the larger hive might have fallen prey to robbers ? Both had about the same resources , lots if bees and honey.  The bigger hive was 8 supers,  about 4.5 of just honey . The smaller had about 3.5 of just honey . The latter are Minnesota Hygienics,  the erstwhile former successfully over-wintered Italians .

Not sure who wiped them out , but ironically it might have been the original better half ; I was slow to split the hive this spring and it swarmed the Saturday before the Sunday I was going to do so .
Just a guess,  but who better?

[Michael Haeger]

General question(s) ,  I've always had a small top board opening , and a full opening at the bottom . The bottom two to three supers I have corked , but the upper honey supers , in this case 5 , I've left uncorked. It's not been a problem in the past,  so I've not considered robbing . Is this something like winterizing,  in the sense you take prophylactic measures based on evolving conditions?  If that's the case , what are those conditions / signs? 

I'm guessing there's not a lot one can do other than eliminating,  and restricting access to potential thieves

[Paul Zelenski]

Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but some thoughts on your situation.

I'm not sure what makes a hive susceptible to robbing other than being weak. Sometimes I think they can tell if I have has a weak queen or is otherwise in distress. I also think it has to do with the amount of area to defend and possibly the smell of uncapped honey. Disturbing s hive by doing an inspection and breaking all the propolis seals can also trigger robbing, even of a strong hive. The smoke and rearranging disorients a hive and it takes them awhile to get back to normal. Robbers can take advantage of this. I think it is the same reason that mite treatments can make them susceptible. Your big hive may have had too much area to defend with all those supers, and too many entrances. Counter-intuitively, the bees are generally not very populated in the capped honey and too many supers might actually become hard for a hive to defend.  It may be better to shrink a hive down to a size that they are a bit cramped. That way the population density is high and they can defend it better.  

Once a hive has been robbed, the robbers will be back for days/weeks, at least a few looking for more treats. Don't think they won't be there tomorrow; they will. Opening your other hive may be risky. If you do, do it early in the morning and be sure to restrict the entrances afterwards. 

I generally do start limiting the entrances prophylacticly, but also just watch my hives to see how they're doing. With normal hives you'll see the robbers hovering and fitting before it gets terrible. You also should know which hives are a bit weaker and may need extra help. 

This year has been terrible. I have robbing in all my yards now. One is so bad that there are piles of dead bees in front of the hives even though the entrances are reduced and the bees are successfully defending. There are still waves of robbers trying to get in, which leads to lots of fighting and dead bees. Generally if the robbers can't get in, they don't try so hard. I'm hoping it will slow with the upcoming cooler weather. 

[Michael Haeger]

Thanks and appreciate the tips . One last question,  before I left this afternoon,  I reduced the openings on the neighboring hive to just a slot at the main entrance,  shutting off the top board hole . My concern is air without thst small opening at the top.  I'm back up tomorrow and am planning on opening it again and follow what it looks like . Thoughts on the circulation ?

FYI,  it did appear there was the beginnings of an unhealthy in that hive on the part of the marauders

[jbessetti]

The bees will circulate the air.  They only need one opening.

Joe

Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone

[Paul Zelenski]

Now that it cooling down, I get less worried about ventilation too. They still need to keep the moisture out, but I always worry about overheating when it is super hot. 

[Michael Haeger]

Graz

[BETSY TRUE]

Just a comment: I never have entrances in the honey supers, only in the brood boxes. I don't want easy access to the supers because of the likelihood of robbing.

All the holes in the front of the brood boxes have one of those metal circular reducers that can be rotated for various conditions: wide open, limited access, only ventilation, and one that I think is a queen excluder. Ask Rich about them, he sells them for less than $2 each.

Sent from my iPad

[Michael Haeger]

Thanks . That's something I never knew about

[RelativelySO]

I got to witness robbing in my hive firsthand on Sunday. My girls fought to the death and the robber bees were a totally different color (almost looked cocoa in color). There were dead and dying bees everywhere before I could get the hive closed up.  It was definitely due to having the hive open and no queen.  Opportunity must give off strong pheromones.  If it were robbers, I would think you would see dead bees, unless some time had passed since their visit as the dead bees get carried off. Amazing thing to witness as I tried to get the hive closed back up.

[Joseph Bessetti]

The bees circulate the air to deal with moisture and overheating too, assuming the entrance size is not too limiting and that they have access to water for evaporative cooling. 
 
I am of the strong opinion that most people's hives have too much ventilation most of the time and that many of the things we try to do to "help the bees" actually makes it harder for them. 
 
Some more opinions, specifically in regarding to robbing (since that is the topic of this thread):  1.  If a hive gets robbed out, it was either not strong enough to defend itself or the entrances were too large to defend, or both.  2.  A strong hive should be able to defend itself against robbing with the right entrance(s).  3. A 3/4" tall entrance the entire width of the hive is way too big and impossible to defend adequately.  Robbers can basically fly right in the door.  I know this is the "standard" for most Langstroth hives, but the fact that robbing is such a common problem leads me to only one conclusion:  this is a terrible standard!  4. A beekeeper should not have to check their hives frequently and take action (i.e. reduce) when they see evidence of robbing.  Often this is not practical or noticed too late and the damage has been done.  A hive should have entrances that are defendable (by a reasonably strong hive of course) all season long. 
 
I'm still experimenting with entrance design and size on my own hives.
 
Joe
 
 
 

 

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From: paulze...@gmail.com

Subject: Re: [madbees] Fwd: Pandemonium

Date: Mon, 28 Sep 2015 20:31:27 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

[Michael Haeger]

Thanks.  I've applied that logic to the survive hives . Clearly,  an opening on each super was fatal,  whether the root , or contributing cause .

What's the prevailing wisdom for numbers of openings ? I've always had the idea of having the main entrance,  and the small opening on the top board , more because of winter than any other reason . The robbing and subsequent slaughter  of the one hive has convinced me if the error of a multiplicity of openings , one per super

[Paul Zelenski]

Generally one opening per super is still defensible by a strong hive of the whole front isn't open. If it looks like robbing is going to be a problem, I restrict my entrances to one every other box or so. It's not really a science, though. 

I agree with Joe.