Fwd: Huge Savings

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H. Adam Steinberg

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Mar 18, 2015, 9:52:46 AM3/18/15
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If you are interested in ordering packages from DesMonies Iowa (about 2 hrs from here). Which in my opinion are better acclimated to our weather than packages from California.

and they are NOT selling Russian packages… don’t be mislead by their name. They are in the process of becoming one of the first to be able to offer Russian packages but that will not be for a few more years. They maintain multiple apiaries.

Begin forwarded message:

Subject: Huge Savings
Date: March 17, 2015 at 11:02:45 PM CDT

We are winding down to the end of the ordering season and guess what... We are overstocked. Rather than turn away our extra allotment of Carniolan bees, We're offering them at huge savings to you all. On all new orders;
$95     1-9 packages
$90     10-49 packages
$85     50 or more
 
These prices are good for both of our delivery weekends until available quantities are gone.
 
Thank you,
-Jason-
  
*note*
Prices good on any new orders starting 3-16. Cannot be combined with any other offers, coupons, or discounts. If you ordered packages earlier in the season, those quantities count towards the price tier discounting stated above, and will be manually adjusted as needed on any new purchases. This offer cannot be applied to prior purchases.

H. Adam Steinberg
7904 Bowman Rd
Lodi, WI 53555

Joseph Bessetti

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Mar 18, 2015, 10:09:08 AM3/18/15
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Maybe I'm missing something?   I don't see any evidence here that these packages include locally (Iowa) raised queens.  These just look like packages shipped in from somewhere else to me.
 
Joe
 

From: h.adam.s...@gmail.com
Subject: [madbees] Fwd: Huge Savings
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:52:54 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
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H. Adam Steinberg

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Mar 18, 2015, 10:11:10 AM3/18/15
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I emailed Jason to make sure of where the bees are coming from. Once he answers I will post it back to the list. 

I have talked quite a bit with Jason because I am interested in Russian bees, and from our conversations these would be his bees but never assume! I will let you know what he says.


On Mar 18, 2015, at 9:09 AM, Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Maybe I'm missing something?   I don't see any evidence here that these packages include locally (Iowa) raised queens.  These just look like packages shipped in from somewhere else to me.
 
Joe
 

From: h.adam.s...@gmail.com
Subject: [madbees] Fwd: Huge Savings
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2015 08:52:54 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

If you are interested in ordering packages from DesMonies Iowa (about 2 hrs from here). Which in my opinion are better acclimated to our weather than packages from California.
and they are NOT selling Russian packages… don’t be mislead by their name. They are in the process of becoming one of the first to be able to offer Russian packages but that will not be for a few more years. They maintain multiple apiaries.
Begin forwarded message:

Subject: Huge Savings
Date: March 17, 2015 at 11:02:45 PM CDT

We are winding down to the end of the ordering season and guess what... We are overstocked. Rather than turn away our extra allotment of Carniolan bees, We're offering them at huge savings to you all. On all new orders; 
$95     1-9 packages
$90     10-49 packages
$85     50 or more
 
These prices are good for both of our delivery weekends until available quantities are gone.
 
Thank you,
-Jason-
  
*note*
Prices good on any new orders starting 3-16. Cannot be combined with any other offers, coupons, or discounts. If you ordered packages earlier in the season, those quantities count towards the price tier discounting stated above, and will be manually adjusted as needed on any new purchases. This offer cannot be applied to prior purchases.
<savings2.jpg>

H. Adam Steinberg
7904 Bowman Rd
Lodi, WI 53555


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Richard / Stacy Schneider

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Mar 18, 2015, 9:32:46 PM3/18/15
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Foley used to distribute bees from C.F, Koehnen in California and I think they may still do that but see what they email back.
Rich



From: "H. Adam Steinberg" <h.adam.s...@gmail.com>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 9:11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Fwd: Huge Savings



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Manufacturers and Purveyors of Fine Beekeeping Equipment
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608-444-1493

H. Adam Steinberg

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Mar 19, 2015, 12:12:41 PM3/19/15
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As Joe suspected these “Iowa” bees are actually California bees, as it seems all packaged bees are...

Begin forwarded message:

To: "H. Adam Steinberg" <h.adam.s...@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Huge Savings
Date: March 19, 2015 at 10:45:02 AM CDT

For package bees, there are no bees that see Iowa winters. Even people who shake bees here in Iowa or Missouri or wherever are really shaking California bees. I.E. the hives have spent all winter out in California to stay big and overflowing so that when they are shipped back to their home state in March or April, the producer can shake the excess bees into packages. And the queens they use in those packages are again queens they have had shipped to them from California, Florida or another sun belt type state that is able to produce queens while hives here haven't begun producing drones. These packages I'm selling do happen to come straight from the fields in California and are brought directly to Iowa non-stop in our own climate controlled vehicle.  
 
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Huge Savings
From: "H. Adam Steinberg" <h.adam.s...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, March 18, 2015 6:55 am
To: in...@russianbee.com

Jason, Are these your Iowa bees or are these California bees?


On Mar 17, 2015, at 11:02 PM, <in...@russianbee.com> <in...@russianbee.com> wrote:

We are winding down to the end of the ordering season and guess what... We are overstocked. Rather than turn away our extra allotment of bees, We're offering them at huge savings to you all. On all new orders;
$95     1-9 packages
$90     10-49 packages
$85     50 or more
 
These prices are good for both of our delivery weekends until available quantities are gone.
visit us at www.russianbee.com
 
Thank you,
-Jason-
 
 
 
 
*note*
Prices good on any new orders starting 3-16. Cannot be combined with any other offers, coupons, or discounts. If you ordered packages earlier in the season, those quantities count towards the price tier discounting stated above, and will be manually adjusted as needed on any new purchases. This offer cannot be applied to prior purchases.
<savings2.jpg>

H. Adam Steinberg
7904 Bowman Rd
Lodi, WI 53555

Joseph Bessetti

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Mar 19, 2015, 2:18:35 PM3/19/15
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Many want bees that are "acclimated" to our harsh winters, but few supply them.  Locally produced nucs may e an option, but I am skeptical about many of these too.  People selling them often don't say much about the stock they raise the queens from--if it was just a package queen they purchased last year it may be a survivor, but I would hardly consider it "acclimated".  Given all the challenges that already exist in keeping bees alive, maybe this is a minor point anyway, but it's a common discussion topic among northern beekeepers.
 
Everyone's definition of "local", "acclimated", "adapted" is a matter of opinion too.  How many winters does a hive have to survive to make it potentially valuable as breeder stock? or to consider it "hardy"?  How many generations of new queens have to be raised to create a "local" queen from outside stock?  There really aren't standard answers to these questions. 
 
I wish there were more collaboration among beekeepers in regard to sharing local, acclimated, winter hardy stock.   If anyone would like to collaborate on raising some queens and evaluating and selecting for better "local" bees, write me off-list to discuss ideas further.  It's something I'm planning to do on my own either way, but pooling resources and having access more local stock (queens and drones) would be nice.
 
Joe
 

 

From: h.adam.s...@gmail.com
Subject: [madbees] Fwd: Huge Savings
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2015 11:12:50 -0500
To: mad...@googlegroups.com

jeanne hansen

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Mar 19, 2015, 2:28:32 PM3/19/15
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Betsy Ture claims she has hives that have lived 5 years in a row, merely superceeding the queen each year, so the hive has had no outside input.  Those must be survivors.
 
Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094


From: Joseph Bessetti <jbes...@hotmail.com>
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 1:18 PM
Subject: RE: [madbees] Fwd: Huge Savings

Paul Zelenski

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Mar 19, 2015, 3:39:04 PM3/19/15
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She does use various mite treatments, though. 

I also have hives that overwinter very well and have for 4 years now. This year is 100% success as of today (although one hive with a 2-3 yr old queen is looking weak. I wouldn't be surprised if they are queenless and diminishing) Are these hives acclimated? Keep in mind, when you answer that these hives started as package bees. So, have they become locally adapted in the last 4 years? Perhaps, since I allow my queens to mate openly. But, they also survived the first year when they were those evil package queens, and are descended from those queens. I also have brought in a few different queens from Paul O. and Dan C. over the years that changed the genetic makeup of my yard somewhat. Those hives have also survived. So, were they acclimated?

It's possible that I lucked into a strain of bees that is hardy and have perpetuated that by raising my own queens. But it is also possible that proper care or location (or luck) are more important to survival. I'm not sure when we will have enough info to know for sure. 

I did sell quite a few nucs last year. I haven't heard much feedback about the success of those nucs. I'll be very interested to hear if they survived better or worse than expected. Last I heard, Mike's was still looking strong; another gentleman had one survive and one perish. 

I am also purchasing 10 packages this year that will be kept at a separate location. It will be interesting to compare results. But if they don't survive as well, will it be due to the location or the genetics? I suppose moving hives between yards could give clues, but will hardly be enough data for any assurance. 

Anyway, I'm sure that wasn't helpful. More and more, I am just questioning the idea that there is any one variable that is the answer. I don't think there is an adapted bee, a magic treatment, a super feed, etc. that will solve the problem. It is, however, probably a combination of all of these, so trying any/all probably doesn't hurt. 

Joe, I'm interested in collaborating. There are a few others that had discussed it as well. Let me know what you had in mind. 

Betsy True

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Mar 19, 2015, 4:31:32 PM3/19/15
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She uses drone trapping, formic acid, thymol strips and oxalic acid in rotation. No “hard” chemical treatments.




On Mar 19, 2015, at 2:39 PM, Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com> wrote:

She does use various mite treatments, though. 

Paul Zelenski

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Mar 19, 2015, 4:42:36 PM3/19/15
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Thanks for clarifying. I hope you don't think I was being insulting or discouraging, just trying to clarify. My point was that you are using treatments to control the mites. Your bees are not 'treatment free'. So they are hardy for our winters, but still need help managing the mites. Mine are the same. 

Betsy True

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Mar 19, 2015, 4:46:36 PM3/19/15
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I don’t claim to be treatment free but I don’t want anyone to think I’d use the hard stuff.

Jeff Knuth

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Mar 19, 2015, 5:26:29 PM3/19/15
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 Hi, Does anyone have an Observation Hive that they don't use anymore and are willing to sell?  I'm going to give some presentations at a middle school this spring and would like to bring an Observation Hive along. Send me an email or call at 262-309-3444.  Thanks, Jeff Knuth


From: Betsy True <bt...@wisc.edu>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Huge Savings

jeanne hansen

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Mar 19, 2015, 5:44:51 PM3/19/15
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Anyone who keeps bees alive years in a row, even with treatments, gets a gold star in my book; we don't live in paradise!  I believe Dan Curran also has had hives live over multiple winters, but he buys packages to expand at such a rate that it is hard to follow.

Paul Oliphant once went 4 years without any mite treatments whatsoever (he split hives) , but during the 5th winter, all his hives died.  So it almost looked like he was sustainable, but then wasn't.

So in our club, we have Dan, Betsy, and Paul Z as our master beekeepers!  Oh!  I believe Mark Evans has had hives survive 3 and 4 winters.  Would anyone else like to join the list?
 
Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094


From: Betsy True <bt...@wisc.edu>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2015 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Huge Savings

Dan Curran

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Mar 19, 2015, 6:00:10 PM3/19/15
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Jeanne--I didn't order any packages this year. Around 85% of my production hives survived and over 90% of my nucs survived. Since I started my current operation all new in 2010, I've been buying packages in order to expand and now have over 100 colonies total. I have many hives that have been alive since I first installed the package, but would have to go back through my records to know for sure how old each hive is.

Dan

Matthew Hennek

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Mar 19, 2015, 7:11:48 PM3/19/15
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I'm not sure it's fair to group winter hardiness and treatment free in the same boat. That's like saying a husky with mange isn't a good dog for cold climates.

jbessetti

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Mar 19, 2015, 7:43:33 PM3/19/15
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I hadn't meant to imply that in my post either.  While my own goals include winter hardy AND treatment free, if I exclude people who treat it would really cut down on the response.

Joe


Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Matthew Hennek
Date:03/19/2015 18:11 (GMT-06:00)
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [madbees] Huge Savings

Marcin

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Mar 19, 2015, 8:58:19 PM3/19/15
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Interesting thread group, enjoying the discussion. I have a yard that was started in 2011 with new packages. Since then I've had a continuous occupation of at least 4 hives. These are not the same queens, but related to original package queens. I split all survivors, and most of the time let the queens mate locally. But occasionally I'll bring in a mated queen. None of the queens survive past 2 seasons, the colonies headed by those queens have always died overwinter. But not this year. I checked it today and 6 out of 7 are alive and 2 of those colonies will have queens that are going into their 3rd season. I don't treat, but I do split, some years more heavily than others. Hives are all foundationless, if that matters. 

John B

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Mar 19, 2015, 9:34:26 PM3/19/15
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My brother in Outagamie county had a swarm come into a box in 2013. That colony survived the polar vortex winter of 2013/14. I split the hive in May of 2014 and allowed the queenless colony to raise their own queen. Both hives are alive today. Both are treatment-free and management-free. I plan on splitting both this May. If there's any extra honey i will harvest it for him then.

James

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Mar 20, 2015, 12:52:19 AM3/20/15
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I have several hives of bees that are all descended from a hive we started from a package in 2008.  And as much as people discuss mite tolerance and winter hardiness, what I've noticed in this line is the relative ease with which they split and supersede.  When they are queenless, they rapidly get to the job of raising a new queen and do so successfully.  Which kind of leads to the point I want to make:  Maybe there are genetic traits that we are overlooking that are more important that mite control or winter hardiness.  The propensity to swarm has a genetic component, maybe these "maternal" instincts do as well.  Having a young queen going into winter is a strong predictor of winter survival.  Maybe bees that naturally turn over their queens more frequently are advantageous in this respect.  Just a thought, but I buy very few packages (generally none) and just split these lines and try to carry a 25% surplus of hives through each season.  It seems to be a financially sound approach to maintaining a steady supply of hives.


Paul Zelenski

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Mar 20, 2015, 2:02:04 AM3/20/15
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While I think mite tolerance and winter hardiness are important traits, I completely agree that we cannot lose track of the other desirable traits if we are to selectively breed our bees. It is also important to me to have gentle bees that are not runny. I suppose productivity is also important.   Personally I would strongly prefer hives that have a low propensity for swarming. I think every hive raises a queen when they are queenless, but readily superceding a poor queen would be a good trait as well. 

Supporting you observation: I did leave a few hives with older queens this winter, and while they are still alive, they are noticeably weaker than the hives that had new queens going into winter even though the hives with old queens were strongest in the fall. 

On Mar 19, 2015, at 11:52 PM, James <hendri...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have several hives of bees that are all descended from a hive we started from a package in 2008.  And as much as people discuss mite tolerance and winter hardiness, what I've noticed in this line is the relative ease with which they split and supersede.  When they are queenless, they rapidly get to the job of raising a new queen and do so successfully.  Which kind of leads to the point I want to make:  Maybe there are genetic traits that we are overlooking that are more important that mite control or winter hardiness.  The propensity to swarm has a genetic component, maybe these "maternal" instincts do as well.  Having a young queen going into winter is a strong predictor of winter survival.  Maybe bees that naturally turn over their queens more frequently are advantageous in this respect.  Just a thought, but I buy very few packages (generally none) and just split these lines and try to carry a 25% surplus of hives through each season.  It seems to be a financially sound approach to maintaining a steady supply of hives.


Sarah Castello

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Mar 20, 2015, 8:41:09 AM3/20/15
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Paul what do you consider to be an older queen? 

Also, when you have an older queen do you replace her in the fall or spring?

Thanks Paul.

From: Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, March 20, 2015 1:02 AM
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: "jeanniea...@yahoo.com" <jeanniea...@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [madbees] Huge Savings

Tim Aure

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Mar 20, 2015, 9:32:22 AM3/20/15
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When would you recommend requeening?

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 19, 2015, at 11:52 PM, James <hendri...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have several hives of bees that are all descended from a hive we started from a package in 2008.  And as much as people discuss mite tolerance and winter hardiness, what I've noticed in this line is the relative ease with which they split and supersede.  When they are queenless, they rapidly get to the job of raising a new queen and do so successfully.  Which kind of leads to the point I want to make:  Maybe there are genetic traits that we are overlooking that are more important that mite control or winter hardiness.  The propensity to swarm has a genetic component, maybe these "maternal" instincts do as well.  Having a young queen going into winter is a strong predictor of winter survival.  Maybe bees that naturally turn over their queens more frequently are advantageous in this respect.  Just a thought, but I buy very few packages (generally none) and just split these lines and try to carry a 25% surplus of hives through each season.  It seems to be a financially sound approach to maintaining a steady supply of hives.


jeanne hansen

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Mar 20, 2015, 10:40:31 AM3/20/15
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Everyone, pay attention to what James said:  The hives make their queens themselves.  No need to "requeen" them.  Just make splits.

Also notice, he said he has 25% more hives than actually wanted.  These are the small splits, the hives making their own queens, from which he doesn't expect any honey.  What he does expect is that they will live over winter and make honey next year.

This is sustainable beekeeping.  This is locally adapted.  This is what we are all striving for.  

I know others are trying to do this, and it isn't trivial.  But the rest of us want to keep working on it.  Don't get discouraged!  Don't give up.  The rewards that come make it all worthwhile.
 
Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094


From: Tim Aure <timoth...@gmail.com>
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 8:32 AM

Subject: Re: [madbees] Huge Savings

Paul Zelenski

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Mar 20, 2015, 10:54:10 AM3/20/15
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I consider any queen that is older than a year to be getting older, but many are still going strong. I have read that back before varroa 3-5 year old queens were quite common.  I'd have to look in my notes, but I think a couple hives had queens which this was their 3rd winter. 

So far I have not really replaced queens because of their age. I have done a lot of splitting, which resulted in new queens. And hives have gone queenless or superseded naturally. It has been hard for me to replace a queen just because the queen is older. Often the second year queens are very very productive. But, I think it is common for many commercial beeks to requeen with purchased queens every year in late summer. The struggle I have, is that it does take a hive a lot of resources to raise their own queens and I have not been purchasing queens. So, finding a time that they can raise one while staying healthy and productive will be the trick. It still just feels odd to take what seems like a good queen out of a hive just to force a them to raise a queen, but maybe it is worth it. Maybe it is time I start grafting or otherwise raising queens, which would provide a source of queens and allow me to  simply requeen  in the late summer (or anytime a queen is looking poor) without loss of productivity. It would also allow me to add queens to my splits and nucs without waiting for them to raise queens. Of course that adds another layer of complexity and must be done well if I am to produce good queens. I did also mention that last year I made some equal splits of a hive. It was amazing how much stronger and more productive the half that kept the queen was compared to the half that raised a queen. But, now come spring the half with the new queen is stronger ... Interesting. 

Anyway, I have had decent success and continue to make a lot of observations. I feel like I am starting to understand more and more about the bees and continue to get better at predicting where my hives are headed. But, I still treat every hive as an individual and have to analyze what to do in each situation. I haven't yet been able to turn my observations into a routine that simplifies their care. Unfortunately this often means not having the ideal resources (often queens) in advance to maximize productivity. But then again maybe it is this individualized care that leads to my success.  I do feel like some of the others (Dale, Dan, etc.) have similar success with less energy spent on each hive. 

Well, sorry for the rambling introspection  :)

PS I also plan to have a more organized system of notes this year to make my queen ages and lineages more track able. With the increase in hive numbers, I am becoming less able to rely on my memory for each hive. 

scott roberts

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Mar 20, 2015, 12:06:01 PM3/20/15
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What kind of mite treatment do u do.  


Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3

jeanne hansen

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Mar 20, 2015, 2:34:26 PM3/20/15
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Paul,  

You said,  "last year I made some equal splits of a hive. It was amazing how much stronger and more productive the half that kept the queen was compared to the half that raised a queen.:
 
Of course!!

Let me point out that it isn't possible to make queens and have a "productive" hive in the sense of "lots of honey," all in the same stack of equipment.  Trying to do both in the same hive is ill-advised.

It takes a lot of bees to make queens, whether you split hives to do it, or use grafting and queen rearing techniques to do it.  The main reason to graft is to get all the daughters from one queen mother.  Grafting adds a lot of work and fiddling around.    Splitting hives ultimately uses the same amount of bees, but with a lot less manipulation on the part of the beekeeper.  Doing the "Queen rearing and grafting" in a different corner of your apiary might let you think the total apiary is "productive,"  but you have simply separated the "productive" honey hives from other "productive" queen-rearing hives. 

Let's not give beginners the idea that every hive has to be "productive" in the sense of huge honey crops, forgetting about queens.

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094


From: Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com>
To: "mad...@googlegroups.com" <mad...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 9:54 AM

James

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Mar 20, 2015, 6:33:19 PM3/20/15
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Well, lotsa questions, so here goes.  First off, I don't mark queens so I'm a little fuzzy on how often natural superceding really occurs.  I cacth it once in a while, and note it accordingly.  I think it happens more than we realize.  Nearly every spring I find a hive or two with two queens, which is another topic altogether.    But in general, I'll let a queen go through two winters and then replace her.  As to when in the year, I would usually do it in late August/early September by pinching the old queen and then doing a newspaper combine with either a nuc or usually a single brood box raised in spring.  This gives enough time for acclimation and later mite treatment.  And there's plenty of new brood from both queens for a steady supply of bees for fall/winter.  I think that's the key:  Plenty of bees, and a fresh queen.  I DO NOT pinch a queen and then let the hive raise a new one at that time of year.  If I really have a laggard, I'll do it earlier in the year once the nucs are ready.  The time of year doesn't seem to be all that important.   I've run a few queens through three winters, but they really tail off in that last year.  But I always try to have some nucs going throughout the year as a supply of replacement queens for both restocking and for the normal bumps in the night that happen.  If you have the space, carrying surplus hives with young queens saves you from buying packages and replacement queens.  You can also dedicate one or two just for drawing comb out, which comes in pretty handy.

As for mite treatment, I usually use a single dose of Apigard once the supers are off and temperatures have moderated (late September).  I don't like tying them up for a full month with treatments that knock brood rearing back.  And one dose seems to do the job.  

Have a fine weekend


Diane Packett

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Mar 21, 2015, 10:45:20 AM3/21/15
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Short question here: What is "the hard stuff" Betsy referred to in mite treatment? The mite-away strips?
 
Thanks!
 
Diane 

Betsy True

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Mar 21, 2015, 10:55:55 AM3/21/15
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“Hard chemicals”: Artificially created chemical pesticides. These are the ones that have gradually built up resistant strains of mites and can leave residuals in the wax comb and sometimes honey.

“Soft chemicals”: Formic acid and Oxalic acid occur naturally. Thymol is derived from plants. These are still powerful.

Someone else might have a better explanation.





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Paul Zelenski

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Mar 21, 2015, 12:26:29 PM3/21/15
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Good explanation. Some people would question the importance of the distinction, but many of us think there is a significant difference between the 'natural' treatments and the 'hard' chemicals. 


Luke N.

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Mar 21, 2015, 1:49:49 PM3/21/15
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Apistan (active ingredient fulvalinate), Checkmite (active ingredient coumaphos), Apivar (active ingredient amitraz), and flumethrin would be some of "the hard stuff".  These are older treatment methods and there are a variety of reasons for beekeepers not to use them, but that quickly becomes a debate that I don't wish to be a part of. 

Mite Away Quick Strips (MAQS) (active ingredient formic acid), Apiguard (active ingredient thymol), Hopguard (active ingredient hop beta acid), and newly approved oxalic acid are some of the "softer" treatment options.  These compounds are found in nature.  That fact alone does not make them safer/better as nature is quite good at making exceptionally toxic substances itself.  The benefit of these treatments is based on the residual chemicals they leave behind, virtually nothings as they evaporate/sublime quickly, and the way they kill the mites. 

Of the softer methods Hopguard seems to have the least experimental evidence of being a successful treatment but experiences may vary. 

Paul Zelenski

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Mar 21, 2015, 2:37:00 PM3/21/15
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What a great discussion. I agree with your general concepts, but disagree with the levels and therefore the outcomes. 

Of course a hive that has a queen will be more productive than one making a queen, but I was surprised by how much difference it makes. I even made one split in early May where I took a queen and 3 frames out of a hive and left the remaining strong 2 deep 1 medium hive there.  The split also was given only foundation in the second deep. They still out produced the full size hive. That was surprising to me. Of course, guess which is stronger now after winter (sorry separate topic). Many people advise against buying a queen because you can raise your own for free. My observation last year was that I was actually paying somewhere in the neighborhood of two supers of honey for a queen raised in a full size hive in early summer. Of course there are still reasons to raise your own queen rather than purchase one. For most hobbiests who don't need to maximize profit, I would still encourage allowing splits to raise a queen. 

Yes, the benefit of grafting is getting many queens from a single queen source. It also provides the benefit of producing queens in man-made queen cups that can be easily separated into mating nucs or hives. I am also considering non-grafting ways of raising queens. What if I make up some nucs and let them raise a queen. Once those nucs have raised a queen and are strong, I could steal their queen to requeen a production hive, forcing the nuc to raise a new queen for themselves. As long as you monitored the strength of the nucs, they should be a source of a couple of high quality queens per year before you let them build up for winter, right? Again, I have a few different theories on how to manage a completely self-sustained apiary, but haven't yet tested them in practice. 

I also agree that raising a queen requires the productivity from a hive, but I cannot agree that it requires the same number of bees whether you are allowing a production hive to do it or are doing it in a separate corner of your apiary. Think about what happens when you remove a queen from a strong hive; they make dozens of beautiful queen cells. If you could raise and mate each of those queens, you would have enough queens to requeen an entire yard. The loss of productivity is really due to the time delay of being queenless and broodless for a month, not the resources required to raise the new queen; the actual resources required to create a strong queen are comparatively small. Therefore, separating this effort into a single hive or a few hives allows you to create many queens with only the loss of productivity from the hive(s) dedicated to raising queens. I completely agree that this raises the level of complexity and requires another level of specialized knowledge. It would only be worthwhile for someone with enough hives that dedicating the time and resources would produce the economy of scale to justify the effort. It is also only important for those who want to define productivity by the amount if products (usually honey) that their hives produce. For everyone else, it is better to let the bees do it, or to buy a queen from someone who has put the effort in to do queen rearing well. 

Anyway, more rambling thoughts on the topic from me. Feel free to disagree or contradict anything I say. I hope that these types of discussions can lead to new ideas and understanding for us all. 

Paul Zelenski

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Mar 21, 2015, 3:12:18 PM3/21/15
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"But I always try to have some nucs going throughout the year as a supply of replacement queens for both restocking and for the normal bumps in the night that happen. If you have the space, carrying surplus hives with young queens saves you from buying packages and replacement queens. You can also dedicate one or two just for drawing comb out, which comes in pretty handy."

This is the type of thing that seems really useful. It really allows you to maintain a steady number of "production" hives while having some spare hives to quickly correct the inevitable problems in your production hives. You also get to put these hives to work on other tasks like drawing comb when they have some spare time. I believe this is the same philosophy that Dan has been encouraging and similar to Michael Palmer. Of course this is easier for the folks with space and time for multiple hives.
I also have a bad habit of thinking, "why not just let that nuc grow to full size." But then I just have more full-size hives I am trying to maintain without the backup resources of these spare nucs. This is an area where I aim to improve.

jeanne hansen

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Mar 21, 2015, 9:12:41 PM3/21/15
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Betsy,

Very well stated!!  

The only other "soft" mite treatment would be dusting the hive with powdered sugar, keeping in mind that, it only is effective (if at all) when there is NO brood in the hive, namely when hiving a swarm, or splitting a hive a letting it make a queen.  Then all the mites are phoretic (riding around on bees) and can be groomed off as the bees groom off the powdered sugar.
 
Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

From: Betsy True <bt...@wisc.edu>
To: mad...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Re: Huge Savings

jeanne hansen

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Mar 21, 2015, 10:22:41 PM3/21/15
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Paul,

"My observation last year was that I was actually paying somewhere in the neighborhood of two supers of honey for a queen raised in a full size hive in early summer. "
 
You are so right!  I did the same thing.  The monster hive that spent a month stagnating while waiting for a big, fat, new queen was really set back.  From now on, all my queens will be made in nucs - not teeny tiny ones, but not big production hives.

 "I am also considering non-grafting ways of raising queens. What if I make up some nucs and let them raise a queen. Once those nucs have raised a queen and are strong, I could steal their queen to re-queen a production hive, forcing the nuc to raise a new queen for themselves. As long as you monitored the strength of the nucs, they should be a source of a couple of high quality queens per year before you let them build up for winter, right?"

Again, you are so right!!  Yes, you should be able to get a couple queens per season.  Then you could build the nuc up for winter, or combine it with some other hive.

"I cannot agree that it requires the same number of bees whether you are allowing a production hive to do it or are doing it in a separate corner of your apiary."

First, I'm not talking about a production hive, but about nucs.  I admit this is hear-say, but some guy in a journal said, when you add it all up, a "normal" hive of bees can raise 10 queens from beginning to end.  Mel Disselkoen says you can take an over-wintered hive, split it 4 ways in May, feed syrup like mad, and at the end of June split each of those hives 4 ways again.  Presto!  From one hive, 16 queens.  Or more likely 10 in reality.  The drawback is, you don't get all 16 ready at once. 

"The loss of productivity is really due to the time delay of being queenless and broodless for a month,"  

Right again!  It is a joy talking to you, Paul.

"When you remove a queen from a strong hive; they make dozens of beautiful queen cells."

One guy uses these cells for the splits.  He actually cuts each sealed cell out of the comb, with an inch of extra space around it.  Then he cuts a similar square hole in a nice brood comb for each nuc and positions the queen cell in it.  Or if you are lucky, the dozens of queen cells are on half-a-dozen different frames, so you just put each frame in a separate nuc.  Then you return the original queen to the big hive, probably by newspaper-combining the storage nuc she was in.  So the big hive only stagnates for 8 days.  It sounds great, right?  But would it really work?  This is starting to sound as convoluted as grafting!!  But you don't need good eyesight to locate the queen cells!  And you don't need another level of specialized knowledge.

 "I hope that these types of discussions can lead to new ideas and understanding for us all."   Right, again!

I get compliments from people, saying how much they enjoy the lively discussions they read on this "madbees" group.  Keep the comments coming!!  

Thanks!
Jeanne Hansen
824 Jacobson Ave
Madison, WI 53714
608-244-5094

Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: [madbees] Replacing queens

Paul Zelenski

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Mar 22, 2015, 1:12:00 AM3/22/15
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Sounds like we're pretty much in agreement after all. 

I will be making an effort to have more of these nucs an spare resources to support my production hives instead of turning everything into a full sized hive. Of course that means I'll be needing more locations ;)


scott roberts

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Mar 23, 2015, 1:18:30 PM3/23/15
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Paul is there a chance i could tak to you about how you use ur nuks
Scott


Sent on a Sprint Samsung Galaxy Note® 3


-------- Original message --------
From: Paul Zelenski <paulze...@gmail.com>
Date:03/21/2015 2:12 PM (GMT-06:00)
Cc:

Paul Zelenski

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Mar 23, 2015, 4:18:39 PM3/23/15
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Of course, I'm always happy to discuss bees. But, I was quoting James in that first paragraph. So far I have only raised nucs and then turned those into full-sized hives or sold them. This year I am hoping to keep more nucs as nucs. I will use them to draw comb, produce brood, have available queens, etc. I also plan to over-winter some. Like I said, though, this will all be new to me. 


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