Swarm Survival

[John Thompson]

These captured swarms that are happening this time of the year, what do you do to assure their survival over the winter? Just feed them like crazy? or transfer honey and nectar frames from other hives? All of the above?

[marvin]

There's a silly little poem about swarms that basically says any swarm you get after June is worthless.  I've nursed some from July through, but the later you get in the year the tougher it is.  The problem isn't food so much.  That you can supplement.  It's brood.  To get through winter, you need a queen that's producing a lot of late summer/fall brood.  And swarms need a bit of time to reach that level of production.  The other thing about late swarms is that they really shouldn't be swarming i.e. there's something wrong.  A lot of them are more likely "abscondants" than your typical reproductive swarm.  Big difference.  But folks will try to get them through, and if you get a warm winter you might get lucky.  I'm sure other beekeepers will come on here with some ideas of how to pull it off.

What I usually do with late swarms is first, treat for mites.  Then pinch the queen and add the bees via newspaper combine to a weak hive to bolster the population.  Basically taking two hives that won't make it and creating one that might.  That's probably the safest approach.

[Tim Aure]

You can also let them both brood up till the fall slow down. Feed & treat them if necessary. Observe and asses the better queen. Then newspaper combine them both to the better hive in October favoring the better queen and 'firing' the slacker. 🤔👍

Sent from my iPhone

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[Joseph Bessetti]

From my perspective the biggest challenge with late swarms is resources.  Comb is the first challenge.  A good-sized swarm will draw out 4 or 5 combs or more in the first week, but getting them up to several boxes of drawn comb probably won't happen without feeding them.  If you have drawn comb to put them on it gives them a huge advantage.   However, I usually run out of extra drawn comb to give to hives pretty early in the season. 

Then there's the problem of winter stores.  Sure, you can feed them, but sugar just isn't the same quality as honey, and I generally just hate feeding.  I'd rather just manage them so that they produce 5 frames or more of their own honey and then insulate them well to limit consumption over winter. 

Management is where things get interesting.  If you put a new swarm on several boxes of drawn comb they'll often rear brood and expand and rear more brood and keep expanding.  By late fall with a couple rounds of brood you'll have a sizeable brood nest, but without an exceptional fall flow (or feeding) they are likely to consume all the food they collect raising brood.  In contrast, if you put a late swarm in a single 10-frame deep box they'll keep a smaller brood nest but end up with 5 or 6 frames of honey by winter.  

Drawn comb and timing of the swarm relative to the flow are really the key elements for me.  May swarms put on draw comb have already produced enough honey for themselves for winter plus some surplus to harvest.   June swarms put on drawn comb have produced about enough honey for themselves for winter but no surplus; these are mostly in 2 deep 10-frames.   I'm keeping my July swarms, most of which got limited drawn comb because I didn't have any to give them, in 10- or 12-frame deep boxes so that they can draw comb to fill it and then make some honey during the goldenrod flow instead of burning through it raising brood.  I'll inspect them in September and expand the broodnest a little if needed so that they have 4-5 combs of brood in October, ensuring a decent sized cluster for winter.  Otherwise there is a risk that they could pack the hive with honey and have too little space for brood and too small a cluster going into winter. 

That's how I'm managing them currently anyway.  Every year I seem to learn something new that I add to the mix.

Joe

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From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John Thompson <johntho...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 1:46 PM
To: madbees
Subject: [madbees] Swarm Survival

 

These captured swarms that are happening this time of the year, what do you do to assure their survival over the winter? Just feed them like crazy? or transfer honey and nectar frames from other hives? All of the above?

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[marvin]

Joe brings up a good point about swarms in general:  They tend to be some of the best comb producers you're ever going to see.  So if nothing else, feed them and give them new foundation and at least generate some nice clean comb for next season.

[Paul Zelenski]

I agree, except that I think feeding is fine in these situations. If you have drawn comb (a ffew boxes) to give a swarm you catch now and are willing to feed, they should be fine. If you don’t have drawn comb, I don’t like their chances.

 

From: marvin
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 9:49 AM
To: madbees
Subject: Re: [madbees] Swarm Survival

 

Joe brings up a good point about swarms in general:  They tend to be some of the best comb producers you're ever going to see.  So if nothing else, feed them and give them new foundation and at least generate some nice clean comb for next season.

 

On Friday, August 11, 2017 at 9:30:02 AM UTC-5, Joe wrote:

From my perspective the biggest challenge with late swarms is resources.  Comb is the first challenge.  A good-sized swarm will draw out 4 or 5 combs or more in the first week, but getting them up to several boxes of drawn comb probably won't happen without feeding them.  If you have drawn comb to put them on it gives them a huge advantage.   However, I usually run out of extra drawn comb to give to hives pretty early in the season. 

 

Then there's the problem of winter stores.  Sure, you can feed them, but sugar just isn't the same quality as honey, and I generally just hate feeding.  I'd rather just manage them so that they produce 5 frames or more of their own honey and then insulate them well to limit consumption over winter. 

 

Management is where things get interesting.  If you put a new swarm on several boxes of drawn comb they'll often rear brood and expand and rear more brood and keep expanding.  By late fall with a couple rounds of brood you'll have a sizeable brood nest, but without an exceptional fall flow (or feeding) they are likely to consume all the food they collect raising brood.  In contrast, if you put a late swarm in a single 10-frame deep box they'll keep a smaller brood nest but end up with 5 or 6 frames of honey by winter.  

 

Drawn comb and timing of the swarm relative to the flow are really the key elements for me.  May swarms put on draw comb have already produced enough honey for themselves for winter plus some surplus to harvest.   June swarms put on drawn comb have produced about enough honey for themselves for winter but no surplus; these are mostly in 2 deep 10-frames.   I'm keeping my July swarms, most of which got limited drawn comb because I didn't have any to give them, in 10- or 12-frame deep boxes so that they can draw comb to fill it and then make some honey during the goldenrod flow instead of burning through it raising brood.  I'll inspect them in September and expand the broodnest a little if needed so that they have 4-5 combs of brood in October, ensuring a decent sized cluster for winter.  Otherwise there is a risk that they could pack the hive with honey and have too little space for brood and too small a cluster going into winter. 

 

That's how I'm managing them currently anyway.  Every year I seem to learn something new that I add to the mix.

 

Joe

From: mad...@googlegroups.com <mad...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John Thompson <johntho...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 9, 2017 1:46 PM
To: madbees
Subject: [madbees] Swarm Survival

 

These captured swarms that are happening this time of the year, what do you do to assure their survival over the winter? Just feed them like crazy? or transfer honey and nectar frames from other hives? All of the above?

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