login page change

[Danny Terweij | LxCenter]

I am trying to make a new login page. Ofcourse is this a default and the HyperVM system admin/owner can override it. (vendor pages).

I am not that good with css3/4 html5 and i get weird effects anyway hehe.

I thought lets play with div blocks but that is screwing up a lot. The blocks floating arround the screen haha.
Also see the attached picture, i can't valign the content inside the blocks. Tho it does not respond to that :)

Anyway proparly it ends up in something else that works :)





Regards,
Danny.

[Otártics András]

Hi Danny, 

  Im not an expert on css either, but have some exp, maybe can help. 

  Let me know how can I help.

Bests,

András

[Andrew Ying]

Hi,

Not sure why I email from andre...@lxcenter.org doesn't go thru... But see quoted as below:

I am just thinking when comparing to the other control panels, the login page honestly looks old-fashioned. With the implementation of HTML5 & CSS3, those fancy looking things now use less resources, and would be pretty good to have. I would probably play around the page for some time, and see if I can get something satisfactory.

And perhaps somebody can give me a source file of the HTML and CSS concerned?

Thanks,

Andrew

[Otártics András]

On Sunday, September 15, 2013 10:01:47 PM UTC+2, Andrew Ying wrote:

Hi,

Not sure why I email from andre...@lxcenter.org doesn't go thru... But see quoted as below:

I am just thinking when comparing to the other control panels, the login page honestly looks old-fashioned. With the implementation of HTML5 & CSS3, those fancy looking things now use less resources, and would be pretty good to have. I would probably play around the page for some time, and see if I can get something satisfactory.

And perhaps somebody can give me a source file of the HTML and CSS concerned?

Thanks,

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

    a new contributor on the horizon :) :) Great!  

    Please do and create something amazing :)

Bests,

András 

[Danny Terweij | LxCenter]

Op 15-9-2013 22:17, Otártics András schreef:

Hehe a good one :) Andrew still a Core staff member :)

But yes HTML5/CSS3 is very good but not that easy :) I use a lot of code snippets from the net. Google is always helpfull.

I refactored a few things a while ago. It is split into 3 files.  Header, body and Footer. Header and Footer can be replaced by vendor files. The body is not that  easy to give it a vendor file (too much php code).

I also refactored some filenames and functions. Why use old_this and old_that as it just works as it should. I know why it was called old because ik think Ligesh wanted to remove the current theme and using the feather. theme. Also the feather theme was forced to set as default. I removed that years ago i think. I dont like the feather theme :)

CSS is easy, file:  admin_login.css  I am playing at my deploy/test vm with this.
Header file LOGIN PAGE: indexheader.html (VENDOR: indexheader_vendor.html)
Body file LOGIN PAGE: indexcontent.html (VENDOR: Not (yet?) allowed)
Footer file LOGIN PAGE: indexfooter.html (VENDOR: indexfooter_vendor.html)

When HyperVM is a slave, Body (Header and Footer also shown if i am right): indexslave.html (VENDOR: indexslave_vendor.html)

We do not use oldindexheader.html anymore, renamed that one)

More refactoring can be done. Why not remove all to /login/ so everything is at the same place.. it is now spread at different locations.


Regards,
Danny.

[Otártics András]

Hhaha, sorry, it was unintentional :)

Why cannot we just add a simple login page without implementing all the stuff? 

That would be easier to maintain/change/replace. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but this seems reasonable for me.

[Andrew Ying]

Haha...

It's fine... I mean, I have gone through a lot of things (and apparently I moved to Europe and is now in UTC+1 zone (yay!!!)). Anyway, my opinion would probably be the same: get a normal HTML page done first, and then think about all those PHP stuffs... At least that's the way I would be working for now.

Best,

Andrew

[Andrew Ying | LxCenter]

Hi Danny,

I am just thinking when comparing to the other control panels, the login page honestly looks old-fashioned. With the implementation of HTML5 & CSS3, those fancy looking things now use less resources, and would be pretty good to have. I would probably play around the page for some time, and see if I can get something satisfactory.

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Best Regards,

Andrew Ying

Core Member & Representative

LxCenter - System Operations

[Otártics András]

>Hi Danny,

>I  am just thinking when comparing to the other control panels, the login page honestly looks old-fashioned. With the implementation of HTML5 & CSS3, those fancy looking things now use less resources, and >would be pretty good to have. I would probably play around the page for some time, and see if I can get something satisfactory.

Sorry for deleting, but gmail makes bottom posting unreadable. 

Andrew, I can you can safely go on, we'll do the implementing part.

Bests

Semir

[Andrew Ying]

Hi all,

Attached please find the first version of the updated login page - updated, modern and fresh. The whole page is basically based on the old design, with HTML5 and CSS3 implemented. The page, except the username & password icons, are purely words but no images.

Input please...

- Andrew

[Will]

I like it except for the actual logo, I would like to see the current logo there.

 

-Will

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[András Otártics]

Some colors would be fine :)

2013/9/20 Will <william...@lxcenter.org>

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Otártics András
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E-mail: otart...@gmail.com

[Andrew Ying | LxCenter]

Hi,

So somebody get me a transparent logo file for me?

- Andrew

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Best Regards,

Andrew Ying

Core Member & Representative - LxCenter

Email: andre...@lxcenter.org

[Danny Terweij | LxCenter]

Op 20-9-2013 11:33, Andrew Ying | LxCenter schreef:

> Hi,
>
> So somebody get me a transparent logo file for me?
>

Logo�s etc are downloadable from the forum.

If you need a special one i can create them from psd etc.

Danny.

[Danny Terweij | LxCenter]

Op 20-9-2013 11:33, Andrew Ying | LxCenter schreef:

> Hi,
>
> So somebody get me a transparent logo file for me?
>

http://forum.lxcenter.org/index.php?t=msg&th=13630&start=0&

[Andrew Ying]

Hi,

Please find the updated preview image. (And of course, comments please.)

Best,

Andrew

[Otártics András]

Wow! Much nicer :)

A bit of shadow around the div? :)

We would need some kick-ass background perhaps. (check archipel for eg: http://www.profivps.hu/archipel/)

 

[lupetalo]

http://subtlepatterns.com/

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[Will]

I like it.  Now make those dots move like a loading pattern :)

 

-Will

----- Original Message -----

From: Otártics András

To: lxd...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, September 20, 2013 3:40 PM

Subject: Re: [Developers] login page change

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[Otártics András]

NO, that is not good! People would think it never loads.

Just make them shine sometimes XD Like a comet :D

[Andrew Ying]

Well... You know what to do... I am not that much a good graphic design, but I will try to make the "balls" shine later if I got some idea... Now, need to confirm if there's anything to add apart from the logo thing...

[Otártics András]

Hi, 

  I think that was only a joke. 

  But the background thing is for real. 

[Andrew Ying]

Well... Then, focus on the image I uploaded and comment - I personally feel the background I used is pretty nice =)

[Otártics András]

Oh, yeah, I just had a look at it full size. :):)

Really little things: 

   - the two icons are not in the middle vertically, 

   - the texbox around Username is too small (or usernname is too tall). 

It become pretty lightweight :) 

Do you think you could do something with the client skin? (I dont really know how it is coded [yet].)

[Andrew Ying]

Okay. Got it updated again. Check the image attached (Google automatically decreases the resolution of my image, so I just upload it instead). Hopefully that's it - and I can go on and delete the useless HTML/CSS codes. 

I do plan on get a whole update in the UI if this style is what the majority of us agrees on... It's unfortunately a huge job - and I suspect the PHP code also need to be updated as the way I code is no longer header content footer as you can see from my login page design.

Best,

Andrew

[Walter Secco]

It's good to see more people interested in HyperVM's (and Kloxo) design!

BUT can I ask you all to continue this discussion in another place?
Pretty please? A new design focused list or forum thread (would be my
choice - easier to read and no mess with top/bottom posts). Maybe
under General Development or András could create a Design specific
forum.

Design is very subjective and everyone has an opinion, as you can see
fom the last 25 e-mails (so far) discussing a single login page. God
knows what happens when we start talking about what comes after that
page.

;)

Thanks,
Walter.

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[Otártics András]

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 12:03:40 AM UTC+2, Walter Secco wrote:

It's good to see more people interested in HyperVM's (and Kloxo) design!

BUT can I ask you all to continue this discussion in another place?
Pretty please? A new design focused list or forum thread (would be my
choice - easier to read and no mess with top/bottom posts). Maybe
under General Development or András could create a Design specific
forum.

Design is very subjective and everyone has an opinion, as you can see
fom the last 25 e-mails (so far) discussing a single login page. God
knows what happens when we start talking about what comes after that
page.

;)

Thanks,
Walter.

Hi Walter, 

 Im sorry, no offense, but isnt that the point of a development mailing list? To get the attention AND subjective or professional opinion of others working on the project?

 It's not like many did much to write on other (programming) subjects either...

 

[Andrew Ying]

Dear Mr Secco, Yes, I received your order, Sir. Relax... You reminded me of some usual reply I would see from maybe some random cPanel representative and I'm sure that's not how we should be talking... 

At this point in which there's only Andras and Will interested in it, I see no real need of it. After all, not too many people (I doubt if Will and Andras do) check the forum regularly, but a lot of people do check their email. And the dev mailing list is not one with 100 new topics a day. More importantly - isn't it better to listen what the developers have to say? After all, it's also about some changes in the templating scripts etc.

Btw, since years ago I have tried to use less capital lesson because it is like shouting as you mentioned in the previous dev mailing list footer. Come on, we all know the meaning and how to properly use "but" =)

Welcome back,

Andrew

[Walter Secco]

@András: This is list was created originally for development - as in
software development or "coding support". To discuss how to approach a
bug fix or new feature. E-mails are ephemeral by nature and not the
best place to discuss a process such as a new "Visual Identity" which
have many iterations. In 4 years someone may be interested in helping
with the design but would have to read 1001+ e-mails to understand the
concept behind it.

When creating a new identity, you have to discuss a color scheme,
button shape and how to define an active state (by shape and/or
color), animations, alert boxes, iconography, and many... MANY little
things that can balloon an e-mail thread.

Not to mention forum users whose life depend on web design outnumber
us by more than 1000:1. If you should ask anyones opinion, it should
be theirs.

Great way to get professionals involved too. :)


@Andrew: Please read the above. If you have an issue with any code
related to templates, sure, this is the place to ask for help. The
background color/image, a shape, a font; these are matters of opinion
that culminate in a concept. There are many online tools and software
to assist in this process and an e-mail list is definitely the worst
of these. Like when you have problems attaching an image and keep the
resolution, not a problem in the forum - the second worst tool - and
you get more eyes and community involvement.

Try checking other open source projects with Design workgroups. They
have different channels to discuss and present ideas. Ubuntu for
example (I know, bad example, but hear me out), check their Unity "Get
Involved" pages (https://unity.ubuntu.com/getinvolved/design/). Note
how Design, Development, Testing and Translation are different
sections. Each have its own procedures and communication channels for
very good and obvious reasons. It's not about the quantity of
information exchanged, but how you organize your ideas however small
or random they are.

And it's ok to post here and present a new or revised concept with
link to the forum, picasa, deviantart, whatever tool you choose to use
that allows others to express their opinions. Nothing wrong with that.

We just don't need so many e-mails with top and bottom posting to do
this. It's messy and confusing.

And there's so much more to design than this. Like the use of <frame>s
on the panels that are troublesome on mobile devices.

We just can't ignore it anymore and that's one thing we should be
using this list to discuss and involves a lot of code. It also blocks
any design concept decisions until it's dealt with.

A web hosting/vps control software that uses frames in 2013, that's
ridiculous and should be in the top of design-related priorities.

Fair to say there's no argument there. :)

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[Otártics András]

Hi, 

   all in all I just have to say I was right because it seems this 25 emails forced you to add your valuable opinion to the development.

> To discuss how to approach a bug fix or new feature.

  But that does not happen either. 

>Try checking other open source projects with Design workgroups. They have different channels to discuss and present ideas.

  I would not really compare the hypervm project in it's current state with it's 4 "active" developers to those, though... :) 

  4 years? The next hypervm release was promissed 2.5 years ago.

  I think an open source project lives if developers share their ideas, create things. Opening a new devlist for 2 seems unreasonable.

  Im happy that some people started to care. As you started, you are happy, too. Discouraging them/us is not the good behaviour to help the project. 

  Your second mail? Yes, perhaps, because it consists some ideas that build. 

 

  Yes, hypervm code needs refracturing and modifications, but none of us will start working on for eg the login page when we have absolutely no idea whatsoever to how to design it. 

  But if a good design is born? Yes, perhaps I sit down one night and recode that part. 

  > And there's so much more to design than this. Like the use of <frame>s on the panels that are troublesome on mobile devices. 

  The concept was that he creates a design and we do the coding .

 

  Needs and dreams. These move open source project forward. Seeing others working on it and remembering "Yes, once I added my 50cents and I had so many other ideas!" and then once you will have some time on your hand and form your old ideas into a new code. 

  Without buzz? It's just easier to forget about them :)

Bests,

András

PS.: yep, the buzz word! :D that's what we need. 

[Walter Secco]

> Hi,
>
> all in all I just have to say I was right because it seems this 25 emails
> forced you to add your valuable opinion to the development.
>

My personal philosophy is that if I don't have anything to add I
should keep my mouth shut. I never stopped following this list, the
forums, bugtrack, etc.

Be it knowledge or time, if I'm short on any of those you won't be
hearing from me. Simple. :)

>> To discuss how to approach a bug fix or new feature.
> But that does not happen either.

Let's try a car analogy. There are special parking spots for the
disabled and elderly everywhere in my city. It does not mean I'm free
to park in one if it's unused.
Maybe someone that needs it will show up right after me.

There could be someone trying to discuss a bug or new feature right now.

>>Try checking other open source projects with Design workgroups. They have
>> different channels to discuss and present ideas.
> I would not really compare the hypervm project in it's current state with
> it's 4 "active" developers to those, though... :)

And you shouldn't. As you know very well, the problem is lack of
community involvement. From the start, the real users were kept away
from important decisions. This is not how open source works and there
is no one to blame but ourselves. A novel could be written about it,
no doubt. Though it wouldn't sell many copies. ;)

But you have to agree that discussing concepts (in this case a design
"concept") needs input from the community. This e-mail list does not
include them and it would be yet another mistake even if we are
discussing just a simple, plain login page.

Our users can tell us their clients difficulties, for which are many.
One example is right-to-left writing from arabic and hebrew scripts.
To them, Kloxo and HyperVM looks and feels completely alien.

Have a look at these sites:
http://www.haaretz.co.il
http://www.aljazeera.net/portal

Note how everything, including design elements (such as control
buttons, icon position, search boxes, navigation elements) are
inverted. Specially confusing for breadcrumb navigation you find in
Kloxo and HyperVM.

Like I said many times before, there's so much more to Design,
specially Web Design for a global open source project.

You have to consider our userbase, specially arabic speakers who
cannot buy a commercial panel license even if they wanted to due to
export control in the US. The crackdown has begun not too long ago and
"ThatPanel" clients with servers in Iran, Lybia, Syria, Palestine (to
name only a few) woke up to bricked servers due to revoked licenses.
The choice then was to go bankrupt or rent a server in Europe or North
America which are subject to spying as we now know.

A thoughtful design, focused on our userbase needs will bring the
programmers the project requires and not the other way around.

The market may LOOK crowded but the demand for open source solutions
is growing fast now more than ever.

Particularly in Brazil due to recent events, our goverment is racing
to implement open source solutions wherever it can (from core internet
routers to virtualization software to the president's desktop and pbx
- end to end OSS).

Just some examples to broaden your horizon. The point of this diatribe
being transparency is now the norm, and we lack it.

> 4 years? The next hypervm release was promissed 2.5 years ago.

Every year is the year of HyperVM 2.1 release. The issue here is the
target market. HyperVM users are more likely to be established
companies (for varying degrees of "companies") who gets in a world of
hurt if an update goes wrong. They lose clients, money and principally
their reputation. May even get into legal trouble.

When a few Kloxo users started panicking because of the 6.1.6/6.1.7
botched updated and demanded an urgent fix because they "were losing
thousands every hour", I found these exaggerations somewhat amusing.
We all know how that turned out. The project reputation took a dive.
Hard.

Now if that were to happen to a HyperVM user, I would shit myself. You
gotta consider the "spectrum" as imagined by LxLabs (in order of
revenue generated):

Dedicated Server with HyperVM > VPS with Kloxo > Kloxo Hosting
Reseller > End user

It all starts with HyperVM. If it fails, it's turtles all the way down.

HyperVM 2.1 should be released when everyone is comfortable and
confident about it. It will still need lots of real world testing
after we judge it fit for release.

> I think an open source project lives if developers share their ideas,
> create things. Opening a new devlist for 2 seems unreasonable.

The issue here is that you and everyone else have to share your ideas
(specially about design) with the community. The forum is probably the
best medium for that right now.

Without community engagement the project will appear to be abandoned.

> Im happy that some people started to care. As you started, you are happy,
> too. Discouraging them/us is not the good behaviour to help the project.
> Your second mail? Yes, perhaps, because it consists some ideas that build.

Au contraire. If anything, I'm trying to encourage people here to
engage the community. The community in general does not care about the
code written to fix a bug, as is the purpose of this list.

However I'm pretty sure they are very interested in participating in
design choices and have a LOT to teach us.

(Yes, I'm repeating myself a lot in hope I get my point across. Still
failing...)

> Yes, hypervm code needs refracturing and modifications, but none of us
> will start working on for eg the login page when we have absolutely no idea
> whatsoever to how to design it.
> But if a good design is born? Yes, perhaps I sit down one night and recode
> that part.

That's the eternal discussion: Form follows function or the other way around?

And the answer is always "the form follows function". In "modern" (as
in the last decade) software engineering methods, you first discuss
the specifications (what it needs to do and what you need to
accomplish the task) with the visual aid of diagrams (UML) from which
you can get a clear picture on how the software should operate and
behave and derive classes and namespaces from those. An effort to do
that with Kloxo was abandoned due to the complexity of code
inheritance but we will have to get back to that eventually.

On the design side of this process (or behaviour diagrams), we call it
"wireframing". You don't need to be a professional designer to do
that. Just some knowledge of usability. And as stated before, you have
to take right-to-left (RTL) into account which even our little login
screen fails.

> > And there's so much more to design than this. Like the use of <frame>s
> on the panels that are troublesome on mobile devices.
> The concept was that he creates a design and we do the coding .

This idea is doomed to fail. You have to start from the bottom, at the
very least with wireframe design so someone with programming
experience can see if it is feasible or not (taking into account it
must work on all browsers, devices, i18n, etc) and propose changes
before a design concept is formulated. There are many tools to
accomplish this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=online+free+wireframing+tool

The color of button or the background image is of no concern to
programmers. Just another distraction.

Otherwise it is a huge waste of time and you end up with a Kloxo 6.1.7
when the "code as you go" idea was prevalent. Botched rewrites,
duplicate functions, bugs that echoes to this day.

>
> Needs and dreams. These move open source project forward. Seeing others
> working on it and remembering "Yes, once I added my 50cents and I had so
> many other ideas!" and then once you will have some time on your hand and
> form your old ideas into a new code.
>
> Without buzz? It's just easier to forget about them :)
>

In my humble opinion, the community moves a OSS project forwards. It
makes or break your project. Your ideas are only worth what the
community says it is worth.

The "buzz" must come from the other side of fence. Happy users makes
developers happy and engaged. Without their appreciation, there is no
reason to continue investing your time (and sometimes money) in an
open source project.

And what a wonderful opportunity to do that.

With all this said, I hope you all get what I'm trying to convey. It's
very tiring to me to debug all my sentences (as it always happens) but
my intentions are always good. Three paragraphs turned into an essay.
There are no double meanings, implied jabs or subliminal messages
(this time, heh). I have to try and steer people away from time sinks
or at least try and help to focus their energy to the right place. At
least until I get my dev machine back in working condition. There is
only so much you can do with a console...

Back to silent mode!

[]s
Walter.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/lxdevel/00811a09-5972-413d-96af-42370a3e6a73%40googlegroups.com.

[Otártics András]

HI,

> Back to silent mode! 

 It is really a pitty, I was about to advise to open a new discussion group on this topic :D JKD :)

 Believe me, I absolutely see your point. 

 Still, I see you are in the clouds, 

 You talk about expectations that were not discussed in years if ever. 

 

 Also about the design follows function: the function is already there. It's about the login page, isnt it?

 I completely agree with you on most points I just do not see the reality. 

 What kind of happy user group are we talking about when even the sponsor backed out after 3-4 years of lack of development? 

 Currently I see no development on new features that would require the kind of design you talk about, all we do is patching up hypervm to follow the development of the environment. Yes, I exactly know what you ara talking about kloxo, I was always too affraid to update it, did only in emergency situations.

 Support of RTL? Of course would be great!

 A new hypervm without the licensing and running on Centos6? Inevitable, a must. With out beign overly dramatic: or else it dies. 

 I think we are both over everything that could have been said :)

 Let me just add one thing: I've always seen your forum post and it is clear you have great experience in programming and design. 

 Why dont you instead of going to silent mode try to coordinate the works? Give a frame to the development? Or at least specify some points like you just did?

Bests,

András

[Walter Secco]

>
> HI,
>
>> Back to silent mode!

Back from silent mode!

> It is really a pitty, I was about to advise to open a new discussion group
> on this topic :D JKD :)

Careful what you wish for...

> Believe me, I absolutely see your point.
> Still, I see you are in the clouds,
> You talk about expectations that were not discussed in years if ever.

Oh no. We talked a LOT. Maybe why nothing was ever done about it. :)

> Also about the design follows function: the function is already there. It's
> about the login page, isnt it?

I'm speaking in general terms, and it includes the puny login page.
Someone mentioned a drop-down to select the language when we could
just detect the browser language automagically. This is a
design/usability issue which relies on underlying code (very simple,
but not implemented). If I'm running Firefox in brazilian portuguese,
I obviously would like to see "Usuário" and "Senha" instead of "User"
and "Password". If the language is not available, default to English
and add a message to the footer explaining how they can contribute
their translation. It's a Win-Win.

This could be the default behaviour or/and an option the Admin can enable.

There is also the question about the annoying overlay error messages
and lost password forms (if they ever worked). Not to mention
displaying a Captcha after an unsuccessful login attempt. More
security to boot.

Just a dumb example. This is 2013 and users should not have to click a
drop-down menu and go through a list to find their language.

Again, form follows function. Wireframe the idea, discuss and
implement a new "function", build the concept or "form" around it.

Going straight to Photoshop is not the answer.

> I completely agree with you on most points I just do not see the reality.
> What kind of happy user group are we talking about when even the sponsor
> backed out after 3-4 years of lack of development?

Where were you in the last 3-4 years? There's been plenty activity.
How one measures activity and its consistency is subjective.

What you wrote is wrong in many levels and this public list is no
place to discuss sponsorship arrangements. Let's leave it at that.

We have other sponsors that have provided services for (almost) as
long as the one in question and we only ever asked for 1 year.

Again, subjective. The reality depends entirely on your point of view.

Just the fact that we got the code open sourced and it didn't result
in a hack fest is a huge win and well worthy of a lifetime
sponsorship. And we have accomplished so much more since then.

We've always had 2 distinct userbases. Old LxLabs customers accustomed
to getting 24/7 support and frequent updates and the new users who are
just glad to have something free. You just have to filter out the
noise from these groups to get any constructive criticism. We lost
most of the first group due to the lack of transparency and not
because of slow (or no) releases. No one likes uncertainty unless you
are in for the free ride.

> Currently I see no development on new features that would require the kind
> of design you talk about, all we do is patching up hypervm to follow the
> development of the environment. Yes, I exactly know what you ara talking
> about kloxo, I was always too affraid to update it, did only in emergency
> situations.

I gave examples above.

> Support of RTL? Of course would be great!
> A new hypervm without the licensing and running on Centos6? Inevitable, a
> must. With out beign overly dramatic: or else it dies.

Agreed entirely. But as I said many times before, no matter how much
work you put in it to make it work on CentOS 6, fix bugs and implement
small new features, none of that will matter if the percepetion
"fresheness" (new software smell !) is overcome by stench of the old
and tired theme. 99% of HyperVM users couldn't care less if the code
is open and readable or a bunch of garbled zend encoded text. Most
wouldn't even care much about no longer needing to register a license
(as long as it is still free).

It's like releasing Windows 7 with a XP theme. Ubuntu 13.04 with Gnome
2. Would you upgrade? Doesn't matter what's under the hood. Perception
is key.

We all have to agree that slapping a new "theme" will not cut it.
There is work to be done and I gave several examples, removing
<frame>s being probably the most important (but complex - damn
javascript EVERYWHERE) due to compatibility issues. Then go through
all the code and fix deprecated tags. Some parts are HTML 3.2. Really.
Think about that for a second.

Lots of stuff doesn't really require a programming background (if you
say HTML is a programming language I will cut you.). Moving up to
HTML5 and updating the third-party JS libs will give you great insight
on what can or cannot be done design-wise. At the same time you can
work on wireframes to keep your ideas in order and prioritize them.

Once the ideas are in order, feel free to spank Photoshop into
submission until it gives you the correct answer. Just make sure you
don't forget about what your users want and need.

> I think we are both over everything that could have been said :)

Yes! Finally. Just one... more... word...

> Let me just add one thing: I've always seen your forum post and it is clear
> you have great experience in programming and design.
> Why dont you instead of going to silent mode try to coordinate the works?
>
> Give a frame to the development? Or at least specify some points like you
> just did?
>

No previous real life experience is relevant when it comes to open
source. At the end of the day, everyone does what they want and it all
spirals down to politics.

The best we can do with what we have today is to define some simple
goals and work in pairs. Split the work, colaborate and make sure the
other is doing their share. Then you add another person, then another,
until everyone is on the same page working toward the same goals.

It also wouldn't hurt to seek help in the development forums and get
more people involved. We can't complain about the lack of people here
when no one knows it exists in the first place.

Hell, start a campaign for donations as a prize to the person who
fixes most bugs in $month. A little competition is always good and has
worked for many open source projects before. Make it November and we
can do a X-mas release (Danny loves those). ;)

Now back to silent mode! You can summon me if you look in the mirror
and say my name 3 times.

[]s
Walter

[Andrew Ying]

Walter, Walter, Walter...

Oh no. We talked a LOT. Maybe why nothing was ever done about it. :)

Well I agree that's the problem - so why not just go with the current way we're doing things :) To be honest, I don't think the General Development forum should be there at all. Otherwise, what's the need for the LxCenter Development mailing list...

I'm speaking in general terms, and it includes the puny login page.
Someone mentioned a drop-down to select the language when we could
just detect the browser language automagically. This is a
design/usability issue which relies on underlying code (very simple,
but not implemented). If I'm running Firefox in brazilian portuguese,
I obviously would like to see "Usuário" and "Senha" instead of "User"
and "Password". If the language is not available, default to English
and add a message to the footer explaining how they can contribute
their translation. It's a Win-Win.

This could be the default behaviour or/and an option the Admin can enable.

There is also the question about the annoying overlay error messages
and lost password forms (if they ever worked). Not to mention
displaying a Captcha after an unsuccessful login attempt. More
security to boot.

Just a dumb example. This is 2013 and users should not have to click a
drop-down menu and go through a list to find their language.

Again, form follows function. Wireframe the idea, discuss and
implement a new "function", build the concept or "form" around it.

Going straight to Photoshop is not the answer.

I am not going straight to Photoshop - it is a HTML file. That's it. It is workable...

Where were you in the last 3-4 years? There's been plenty activity.
How one measures activity and its consistency is subjective.

What you wrote is wrong in many levels and this public list is no
place to discuss sponsorship arrangements. Let's leave it at that.

We have other sponsors that have provided services for (almost) as
long as the one in question and we only ever asked for 1 year.

Again, subjective. The reality depends entirely on your point of view.

Well, I am with the list for at least 3-4 year. What I see is no activity on the list for at least 2 years... I summoned people, nobody write back... I am it's not about subjective. The statistics speak themseleves. With regard to sponsors, it is pretty surprising.

 

Agreed entirely. But as I said many times before, no matter how much
work you put in it to make it work on CentOS 6, fix bugs and implement
small new features, none of that will matter if the percepetion
"fresheness" (new software smell !) is overcome by stench of the old
and tired theme. 99% of HyperVM users couldn't care less if the code
is open and readable or a bunch of garbled zend encoded text. Most
wouldn't even care much about no longer needing to register a license
(as long as it is still free).

Not really... The young people love having that freshness, iOS 7 is a good example... 

We all have to agree that slapping a new "theme" will not cut it.
There is work to be done and I gave several examples, removing
<frame>s being probably the most important (but complex - damn
javascript EVERYWHERE) due to compatibility issues. Then go through
all the code and fix deprecated tags. Some parts are HTML 3.2. Really.
Think about that for a second.

Agree on this one. 

Once the ideas are in order, feel free to spank Photoshop into
submission until it gives you the correct answer. Just make sure you
don't forget about what your users want and need.

Again, I am doing it with Photoshop - everything is practical... 

>  Let me just add one thing: I've always seen your forum post and it is clear
> you have great experience in programming and design.
>  Why dont you instead of going to silent mode try to coordinate the works?
>
> Give a frame to the development? Or at least specify some points like you
> just did?
>

No previous real life experience is relevant when it comes to open
source. At the end of the day, everyone does what they want and it all
spirals down to politics.

The best we can do with what we have today is to define some simple
goals and work in pairs. Split the work, colaborate and make sure the
other is doing their share. Then you add another person, then another,
until everyone is on the same page working toward the same goals.

It also wouldn't hurt to seek help in the development forums and get
more people involved. We can't complain about the lack of people here
when no one knows it exists in the first place.

As I said, then there's no purpose of the LxCenter Development mailinglist... 

Hell, start a campaign for donations as a prize to the person who
fixes most bugs in $month. A little competition is always good and has
worked for many open source projects before. Make it November and we
can do a X-mas release (Danny loves those). ;)

I would be happy to give 5 USD... Need some details tho...

Best,

Andrew

[András Otártics]

Sorry, top post.

Yes, this is what I meant by being in the clouds.
Currently the clients does not need a fully reworked hypervm. They need a new one that runs. Runs on 64bits, runs on centos 6.
I know that, cause Im basically a client. A Hungarian one.
People would love Hungarian Hypervm. Still, they use it in english.
I wanted to take part in kloxo but saw the dev went nuts, shut down web hosting instead XD

This is the main point. After a new, open sourced hypervm we can think of the other steps.
Until then modifying working code is more an error than good as it introduces liabilities, bugs.

Challenge this if you want to.

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[Otártics András]

Walter Walter Walter  :D

Okay, I feel I was not successful to show my point. Please find my answers bellow.

On Saturday, September 21, 2013 10:29:06 AM UTC+2, Walter Secco wrote:

>
> HI,
>
>> Back to silent mode!

Back from silent mode!

>  It is really a pitty, I was about to advise to open a new discussion group
> on this topic :D JKD :)

Careful what you wish for...

>  Believe me, I absolutely see your point.
>  Still, I see you are in the clouds,
>  You talk about expectations that were not discussed in years if ever.

Oh no. We talked a LOT. Maybe why nothing was ever done about it. :)

I think I was not clear on this: yes! Talking/designing too much for a little group with no time likely kills the work as everyone gets affraid to do so huge chages, cause they wont have the time to finish it.

 

>  Also about the design follows function: the function is already there. It's
> about the login page, isnt it?

I'm speaking in general terms, and it includes the puny login page.
Someone mentioned a drop-down to select the language when we could
just detect the browser language automagically. This is a

  I had some clients who strictly forbade me from auto language detection. 

  And he is sort of right. Proxies, browser compatibilites or even users using foreign language OS can kill it and that is really annoying. 

 

There is also the question about the annoying overlay error messages

  But I believe you feel that too, that overlay messages are needed for proper error report. They need a new style. That does not need full rewiring either. 

 

and lost password forms (if they ever worked). Not to mention

  Yep, it does work. 

 

displaying a Captcha after an unsuccessful login attempt. More
security to boot.

  Good idea! Moving it to v2.2.

 

Again, form follows function. Wireframe the idea, discuss and
implement a new "function", build the concept or "form" around it.

Going straight to Photoshop is not the answer.

  Sometimes I feel that you are not even reading me. We are NOT redesigning. Just patching. More on it at the end. 

>  I completely agree with you on most points I just do not see the reality.
>  What kind of happy user group are we talking about when even the sponsor
> backed out after 3-4 years of lack of development?

Where were you in the last 3-4 years? There's been plenty activity.
How one measures activity and its consistency is subjective.

 Sorry, you are right, Im around only for 3 years, but still havent seen a hypervm release. 

 

What you wrote is wrong in many levels and this public list is no
place to discuss sponsorship arrangements. Let's leave it at that.

  Im mostly at the forum, I've read and understood his point. It was not about giving aways something for free or not. It was about they need a panel that supports new environments, and saw no releases in the last 2.5 years and not even a commit in 13 months.

  Development is subjective, as you wrote, but 13 months without any commits is sure not that.

We have other sponsors that have provided services for (almost) as
long as the one in question and we only ever asked for 1 year.

  Yea! Even I could provide 1-2 VPSs and/or mirrors! 

 

Just the fact that we got the code open sourced and it didn't result 
in a hack fest is a huge win and well worthy of a lifetime
sponsorship. And we have accomplished so much more since then.

 It is really great, but was it your achivement? Kloxo has been hacked a thosen times... I have a client who surely got hacked 2 months back though kloxo.

>  Currently I see no development on new features that would require the kind
> of design you talk about, all we do is patching up hypervm to follow the
> development of the environment. Yes, I exactly know what you ara talking
> about kloxo, I was always too affraid to update it, did only in emergency
> situations.  

I gave examples above.

  For what? I mean currently: I dont, Will doesnt, Danny doesnt, Andrew, Taraszka does not implement any really new features. 

 

>  Support of RTL? Of course would be great!
>  A new hypervm without the licensing and running on Centos6? Inevitable, a
> must. With out beign overly dramatic: or else it dies.

Agreed entirely. But as I said many times before, no matter how much
work you put in it to make it work on CentOS 6, fix bugs and implement
small new features, none of that will matter if the percepetion

    That is why we need a new login page and at least a new client area. 

 

"fresheness" (new software smell !) is overcome by stench of the old
and tired theme. 99% of HyperVM users couldn't care less if the code
is open and readable or a bunch of garbled zend encoded text. Most
wouldn't even care much about no longer needing to register a license
(as long as it is still free).

It's like releasing Windows 7 with a XP theme. Ubuntu 13.04 with Gnome
2. Would you upgrade? Doesn't matter what's under the hood. Perception
is key.

  And here comes my point! Please read it carefully.

   We are working on HyperVM 2.1. 

   Two dot One. As you may well know, x.1 is not a major release. 

   All the things you foreseeing is a part of a Major release like 3 or 4. 

   But now we arent aiming a major release.

   And this is the most important part that must be understood. We are patching things. NO rewiring, no redesigning. 

   And I strongly believe what I wrote in my last mail: doing that would even be an error as it would mean 1-3 years of development for a strong, good team in 8 hours a day... (incl test and debug.)

   Once again: this is HyperVM 2.1.

   Then we can start updating those codes that will be needed by 3.0. 

   And then work on 3.0 could be started. 

   Step by step. Yes, long term goals and visions are absolutely needed to keep the design together. But keep them as that: long term goals. 

   I think all the other parts are irrelevant in the light of those I tried to show to you.

Bests,

András

[Danny Terweij | LxCenter]

Just my 2 cents about this discussion:

First, i introduced the login page change. A few ppl stepped up and also
working at it without discuss who is doing it.

I do not care at the moment about any specs, rules, or even something
about other countries.

I do care about: DO SOMETHING.

I code simple things, refactor a bit etc. The goal? Make the whole
source smaller and somewhat cleaner.

After 2.1.0 that i still want to release before 2014, then you may all
talk talk talk talk and talk. Then i have to see what happens when i am
fully go to the background with only as a RPM/3rdparty maintainer.

I bet nothing happens.... as always... talk talk talk... silence silence
silence...

Get my point after all those years....

So go code, refactor whatever, dont talk too much. There are only 2
forks active that submits code. See the network graph at github to see
your self.

I am on a road and the end of the road is after 2.1.0.

I hope everyone gets my point of view :) Not a flame or attack but the
reality....


Regards,
Danny.

[Andrew Ying]

In that case, let's go on with the login page design. I have attached the completed HTML file here. So somebody may want to implement it (remember to add my credit =) )

Best,

Andrew

[András Otártics]

2013.09.21. 20:51, "Andrew Ying" <andre...@lxcenter.org> ezt írta:
>
> In that case, let's go on with the login page design. I have attached the completed HTML file here. So somebody may want to implement it (remember to add my credit =) )
>
> Best,
> Andrew
>
>

Will do tomorrow.

> On Saturday, 21 September 2013 16:31:55 UTC+1, Danny Terweij wrote:
>>
>> Just my 2 cents about this discussion:
>>
>> First, i introduced the login page change. A few ppl stepped up and also
>> working at it without discuss who is doing it.
>>
>> I do not care at the moment about any specs, rules, or even something
>> about other countries.
>>
>> I do care about: DO SOMETHING.
>>
>> I code simple things, refactor a bit etc. The goal? Make the whole
>> source smaller and somewhat cleaner.
>>
>> After 2.1.0 that i still want to release before 2014, then you may all
>> talk talk talk talk and talk. Then i have to see what happens when i am
>> fully go to the background with only as a RPM/3rdparty maintainer.
>>
>> I bet nothing happens.... as always... talk talk talk... silence silence
>> silence...
>>
>> Get my point after all those years....
>>
>> So go code, refactor whatever, dont talk too much. There are only 2
>> forks active that submits code. See the network graph at github to see
>> your self.
>>
>> I am on a road and the end of the road is after 2.1.0.
>>
>> I hope everyone gets my point of view :) Not a flame or attack but the
>> reality....
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>> Danny.
>>

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[Otártics András]

Hi,

  those who are interested can have a look at it https://www.profivps.hu:8887

  

  @Andrew: I changed the forgott password page, too, but would need an email icon.

:) 

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lxdevel+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Ying]

Hi,

Please find email icon as attached. BTW, the login page got an extra ?> on top. Make sure you used the right code.

Best,

Andrew

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lxdevel+u...@googlegroups.com.

[András Otártics]

Thanks!

 Yes it does, I already commented that in github XD I saw it just after I created the pull request. it was  a bummer :D 

 I'll remove it when uploading the mail icon later.

2013/9/22 Andrew Ying <andre...@lxcenter.org>

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Otártics András
Villamosmérnök
Telefon: +3620-503-96-11
E-mail: otart...@gmail.com