[Trustee] Clarification of Rule 6 regarding Mail

[Henry Sands]

Hello Hackspace members,

Due to a number of issues in recent months regarding post, we've decided to clarify Rule 6 on what is and is not acceptable use of the Hackspace's address (what you should really be sending to your home address).

Acceptable use of the Hackspace's address:-

• Getting material/items used for hacking delivered to the hackspace

Unacceptable use of the Hackspace's address:-

• Creating trade/service/personal accounts with other companies (Utilities, mobile phones etc.)

• Creating bank accounts or registering financial services (and HMRC, etc.)

• Using it as a point of contact for businesses other than London Hackspace

• Using it to receive business correspondence

• Registering it as a company address with Companies House

• Getting personal mail delivered to the space

If in doubt, refer to the 'acceptable' list 

Exceptions (by prior arrangement) will be made for subgroups that operate within the Hackspace (Biohackers, Pl(a)ywood etc.), but not for personal businesses operated by Hackspace members or non-members.

If you use the Hackspace's address for your business or have accounts registered with the Hackspace's address, please change these ASAP, we will begin handing out formal warnings after a period of time.

As always, any mail or items sent to the hackspace are sent entirely at your own risk, ideally you should be available to collect them as the local post is pretty unreliable, London Hackspace is not a PO box.

Kind Regards,

Henry

On Behalf of the London Hackpsace Trustees.

[Martin (Crypt)]

While generally a good rule addition, I think this might go a little too far.  Obviously having personal account for trade, credit cards or anything like that is a risk for the space.  However I think there are a lot of members who receive parcels or other personal deliveries to the space, that might have nothing to do with projects they are working on, but I don't see a problem with those packages being delivered to the space, provided adequate arrangements are in place to receive them.

Obviously we have to say that anything they have delivered is at their own risk, but I feel that maybe this rule should be amended to remove the last item from the banned list (Personal mail).  If the personal mail has nothing to do with setting up accounts or companies at the hackspace address, I can't see any harm in having it delivered.  Also I would suggest that we amend the acceptable list to "Getting materials or personal packages delivered to the hackspace"

I know hackspace is not a PO Box, but if an item does not bring any harm, or potential harm to the space, I don't see a reason to disallow it.

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[Adrian Godwin]

It does, though, seem to cause endless pain due to loss of packages. I think it needs to be discouraged or the 'own risk' part emphasised very strongly.

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 11:59 AM, 'Martin (Crypt)' via London Hackspace <london-h...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

While generally a good rule addition, I think this might go a little too far.  Obviously having personal account for trade, credit cards or anything like that is a risk for the space.  However I think there are a lot of members who receive parcels or other personal deliveries to the space, that might have nothing to do with projects they are working on, but I don't see a problem with those packages being delivered to the space, provided adequate arrangements are in place to receive them.

Obviously we have to say that anything they have delivered is at their own risk, but I feel that maybe this rule should be amended to remove the last item from the banned list (Personal mail).  If the personal mail has nothing to do with setting up accounts or companies at the hackspace address, I can't see any harm in having it delivered.  Also I would suggest that we amend the acceptable list to "Getting materials or personal packages delivered to the hackspace"

I know hackspace is not a PO Box, but if an item does not bring any harm, or potential harm to the space, I don't see a reason to disallow it.

[Mat Stace]

On Monday, January 16, 2017 at 11:59:14 AM UTC, crys...@googlemail.com wrote:

Obviously we have to say that anything they have delivered is at their own risk, but I feel that maybe this rule should be amended to remove the last item from the banned list (Personal mail).  If the personal mail has nothing to do with setting up accounts or companies at the hackspace address, I can't see any harm in having it delivered.

But what if someone signs up for a new mobile phone contract at their home address, but asks for the handset to be delivered to the space? That mail has nothing to do with setting up an account with $phoneProvider, but then the phone provider will have the hackspace address linked to the account, so if the account falls behind, the mobile phone provider could potentially pass the hackspace address to the debt collectors. 

[Martin (Crypt)]

I don't really see the need to start getting into straw man hypothetical situations, because you can probably provide endless 'what if' scenarios.  The rules should be general enough that trustees can use digression on what they consider to be harmful to the space.  I guess in most situations like that, it would be the same as having it delivered to a PO Box location.  There is zero chance that debt collectors could legally come after the hackspace in that situation, and thats the standard we should use

--

[Nigel Worsley]

On 16 January 2017 at 12:06, Mat Stace <mat....@gmail.com> wrote:
> But what if someone signs up for a new mobile phone contract at their home
> address, but asks for the handset to be delivered to the space? That mail
> has nothing to do with setting up an account with $phoneProvider, but then
> the phone provider will have the hackspace address linked to the account, so
> if the account falls behind, the mobile phone provider could potentially
> pass the hackspace address to the debt collectors.

This appears to be exactly what happened to Stefan Sabo (except that
it was a SIM card rather than a phone).

The blanket ban on personal mail is justified, in my opinion. It also
avoids any wiggle room for people trying to bend the rules a bit.

Nigle

[Nigel Worsley]

> If you use the Hackspace's address for your business or have accounts
> registered with the Hackspace's address, please change these ASAP, we will
> begin handing out formal warnings after a period of time.

That isn't likely to be very useful in the case of the non members
that are using the space address. Perhaps just returning everything
with 'not known at this address' would be a more effective deterrent

In the case of the limited company that is currently using the
hackspace asn its registered address and also the contact address for
the sole director (who is no longer a member) one option is to apply
to Companies House to have our address removed from the register.
Details of how to do it are here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/apply-to-change-a-companys-disputed-registered-office-address-rp07

Nigle

[Martin (Crypt)]

Currently I'm not sure thats too much of an issue.  A quick search of companies house gives:

LONDON BIOLOGICAL LABORATORIES LTD 

This is the biohackers and explicitly allowed

FLUXON TECHNOLOGIES LTD

Not sure what this is, but its a desolved company, so this shouldn't be a porblem

GALLANTCLOUD GAMES LTD

Not sure exactly what this is either.  It seems to be active, but none of the people related to it on the companies house database appear to be members.  

I'm a bit worried about the games company, but given its the only active company registered at the hackspace which is not explicitly allowed, I'm think we might be over estimating the problem slightly.  Still worth looking into though to maybe get in contact with them

[Nigel Worsley]

> GALLANTCLOUD GAMES LTD
> Not sure exactly what this is either. It seems to be active, but none of
> the people related to it on the companies house database appear to be
> members.

Richard Hoffmann is an ex member, HS02196 so presumably the trustees
have access to his contact details from the members database.

> I'm a bit worried about the games company, but given its the only active
> company registered at the hackspace which is not explicitly allowed, I'm
> think we might be over estimating the problem slightly.

Perhaps, but decisive action will dissuade anyone from doing the same
in the future :)

Nigle

[Charles Yarnold]

Action is already on its way to resolve this one :)

Nigle

[Adrian Godwin]

Our chief weapon is surprise. Surprise and fear. etc ..

On Mon, Jan 16, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

Action is already on its way to resolve this one :)

[David Murphy]

Yep

This seems to be the guy:

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/richardhoffmannvr

Though no worries if the trustees are already on it.

[Peter "Sci" Turpin]

This is a useful clarification and will hopefully leave less wiggle-room
for abuse.

A note of concern though:

As the communications feedback thread suggested, this list is read by as
little as 40% of the membership who physically use the space. This rule
directly relates to physical use of the space.

Rule changes really need to go out by the delivery method that ensures
the highest proportion of membership will see it. It is the agreement we
all abide by as continuing members. It is undermined if it's not ensured
that all members know what they're retroactively agreeing to. I'd
suggest re-sending this as a bulk mailing direct to member addresses.

On 16/01/2017 10:43, 'Henry Sands' via London Hackspace wrote:
> Hello Hackspace members,
>
> Due to a number of issues in recent months regarding post, we've decided
> to clarify Rule 6 on what is and is not acceptable use of the
> Hackspace's address (what you should really be sending to your home
> address).
>

> *Acceptable use of the Hackspace's address:-*
>
> * Getting material/items used for hacking delivered to the hackspace
>
>
> *Unacceptable use of the Hackspace's address:-*
>
> * Creating trade/service/personal accounts with other companies
> (Utilities, mobile phones etc.)
>
> * Creating bank accounts or registering financial services (and HMRC,
> etc.)
>
> * Using it as a point of contact for businesses other than London
> Hackspace
>
> * Using it to receive business correspondence
>
> * Registering it as a company address with Companies House
>
> * Getting personal mail delivered to the space

>
>
> If in doubt, refer to the 'acceptable' list
>
> Exceptions (by prior arrangement) will be made for subgroups that
> operate within the Hackspace (Biohackers, Pl(a)ywood etc.), but not for
> personal businesses operated by Hackspace members or non-members.
>
> If you use the Hackspace's address for your business or have accounts
> registered with the Hackspace's address, please change these ASAP, we
> will begin handing out formal warnings after a period of time.
>
> As always, any mail or items sent to the hackspace are sent entirely at
> your own risk, ideally you should be available to collect them as the
> local post is pretty unreliable, London Hackspace is not a PO box.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Henry
> On Behalf of the London Hackpsace Trustees.
>

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[Billy]

I can understand why some people are doing this, as most tenancies have clauses barring you from running a business from your home. That said, the unreliability of the mail, and the threat of debt collectors make this a non-viable option, as it will cause problems for other members.

There is a company called British Monomarks, http://www.britishmonomarks.co.uk/ , based near Holborn tube.

They rent out mailboxes that can be used as the registered-address/registered-office for all forms of legal entity. They charge around £120 a year, plus VAT.

Using this is a lot more reliable that the hackspace, and the rental is a tax-deductible business expense.

(I was one of their customers for around four years.)

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[Bacon Zombie]

All unauthorised mail should be stamped with "deceased" and returned to sender.

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[Mr Ed]

On Monday, 16 January 2017 11:59:14 UTC, crys...@googlemail.com wrote:

While generally a good rule addition, I think this might go a little too far. 

I disagree: I think it's about right now. I think it comes under the general heading of "and this is why we can't have nice things": when it was permissive, people abused it too much, so now the rule needs to be strict because that's all that seems to work well.

-Ed

 

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[David Murphy]

I'm not so sure. There will always tend to be a certain level of over-focus on recent events but over the course of >5 years how much harm has actually been inflicted on the space by people getting packages delivered. I don't know if there's been dozens of cases I've not heard about but I've only heard about a few cases where debt collectors had to be talked to and some of those were people registering companies at the spaces address rather than just mail.

There's a certain level of drama of people ordering packages that disappear but that's pretty low level.

It is possible to overreact to outliers and this, particularly the "personal mail" point does seem to reduce the utility of the space to many members.

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[Mat Stace]

On Tuesday, January 17, 2017 at 12:13:00 PM UTC, David wrote:

particularly the "personal mail" point does seem to reduce the utility of the space to many members.

Only those to whom the utility of 'space is pushing the bounds of Rule 6: Do not treat the Hackspace like your home

[David Murphy]

It can also be a valuable bonus in many workplaces and doesn't make them your home in any way shape or form, particularly if you have crappy neighbors and lazy amazon delivery couriers.

it just feels like a kneejerk overreaction to what seems a fairly minor issue that makes the space less valuable to a lot of people.

But I can see from this reaction that we've already entered the zone of thought where since it's now on the rule list it cannot even be discussed coherently so this is going nowhere. 

--

[Henry Sands]

This isn't a totalitarian dictatorship, input and alternate views are always welcomed.

Nothing is enshrined and nothing is unchangeable. my personal opinion was that personal correspondence between people isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things, on the other hand LHS isn't a mailbox or a home away from home, it's a workshop for building and making.

The decision to stop all mail was made because it's easier to enforce and you really shouldn't be getting personal stuff delivered to the hackspace, that doesn't mean we're going to go around with pitchforks if a member received a christmas card.

Henry.

[Charles Yarnold]

On 17 January 2017 at 12:39, David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

It can also be a valuable bonus in many workplaces and doesn't make them your home in any way shape or form, particularly if you have crappy neighbors and lazy amazon delivery couriers. 

Worth noting that the example you gave is still ok, an amazon delivery to the space is fine. Sure it could actually be not for a project for hacking. but we aren't about to check that for every delivery.

[Lex Robinson]

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 12:39 David Murphy, <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

It can also be a valuable bonus in many workplaces and doesn't make them your home in any way shape or form, particularly if you have crappy neighbors and lazy amazon delivery couriers. 

Given people actively steal post if it looks valuable and Stephan noted several instances of couriers just lobbing parcels over the back fence it doesn't seem like a good idea to have anything at all shipped here.

Personally I think it's good to just add "PO Box" to the list of things the Hackspace isn't and carry on.

[David Murphy]

still seems more dependable than my local amazon delivery people who just leave packages in the rain on the front step in view of the street.

I've never got stuff delivered to the space but I know quite a few who do because their local delivery people are pretty much like mine and the chances of losing parcels is still much lower.

--

[Lex Robinson]

Amazon Lockers would probably a safer option. AFAIK it's the same price as a normal delivery.

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[Henry Sands]

Sometimes it's free.

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 14:51:50 UTC, Lex Robinson wrote:

Amazon Lockers would probably a safer option. AFAIK it's the same price as a normal delivery.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 at 14:26 David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

still seems more dependable than my local amazon delivery people who just leave packages in the rain on the front step in view of the street.

I've never got stuff delivered to the space but I know quite a few who do because their local delivery people are pretty much like mine and the chances of losing parcels is still much lower.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Lex Robinson <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 12:39 David Murphy, <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

It can also be a valuable bonus in many workplaces and doesn't make them your home in any way shape or form, particularly if you have crappy neighbors and lazy amazon delivery couriers. 

Given people actively steal post if it looks valuable and Stephan noted several instances of couriers just lobbing parcels over the back fence it doesn't seem like a good idea to have anything at all shipped here.

Personally I think it's good to just add "PO Box" to the list of things the Hackspace isn't and carry on.

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[Connor Shearwood]

Doddle are also a good general purpose solution. Not free (unless the retailer pays for it, Amazon Prime does) but cheap and safe.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 at 15:05 'Henry Sands' via London Hackspace <london-h...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Sometimes it's free.

On Tuesday, 17 January 2017 14:51:50 UTC, Lex Robinson wrote:

Amazon Lockers would probably a safer option. AFAIK it's the same price as a normal delivery.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 at 14:26 David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

still seems more dependable than my local amazon delivery people who just leave packages in the rain on the front step in view of the street.

I've never got stuff delivered to the space but I know quite a few who do because their local delivery people are pretty much like mine and the chances of losing parcels is still much lower.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Lex Robinson <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 12:39 David Murphy, <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

It can also be a valuable bonus in many workplaces and doesn't make them your home in any way shape or form, particularly if you have crappy neighbors and lazy amazon delivery couriers. 

Given people actively steal post if it looks valuable and Stephan noted several instances of couriers just lobbing parcels over the back fence it doesn't seem like a good idea to have anything at all shipped here.

Personally I think it's good to just add "PO Box" to the list of things the Hackspace isn't and carry on.

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[David Murphy]

Unfortunately the vast majority of marketplace sellers don't ship to amazon lockers. They're a good idea and in about 1 in 10 amazon purchases they can even be used.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 2:51 PM, Lex Robinson <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Amazon Lockers would probably a safer option. AFAIK it's the same price as a normal delivery.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 at 14:26 David Murphy <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

still seems more dependable than my local amazon delivery people who just leave packages in the rain on the front step in view of the street.

I've never got stuff delivered to the space but I know quite a few who do because their local delivery people are pretty much like mine and the chances of losing parcels is still much lower.

On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 1:42 PM, Lex Robinson <mwa...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017, 12:39 David Murphy, <murphy...@gmail.com> wrote:

It can also be a valuable bonus in many workplaces and doesn't make them your home in any way shape or form, particularly if you have crappy neighbors and lazy amazon delivery couriers. 

Given people actively steal post if it looks valuable and Stephan noted several instances of couriers just lobbing parcels over the back fence it doesn't seem like a good idea to have anything at all shipped here.

Personally I think it's good to just add "PO Box" to the list of things the Hackspace isn't and carry on.

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[Nick Cripps]

I don't see any problem with the below rules. 

I think it might be sensible to add an explicit rule allowing the trustees to open and inspect/read the contents of any mail or package addressed to any member that arrives at the space, for the purpose of enforcing these rules, and, a rule that anyone who causes any company to contact the space about a (legitimate, with the presumption that they are legitimate unless this can be proved to the satisfaction of the trustees by the member not to be the case) debt to a company they have given the space's address to would be banned, at the discretion of the trustees, to make dealing with a situation like that easier. The contents of mail and packages should be assumed to be confidential (so only trustees are allowed to look/be told what they are) unless they are believed by the trustees to be in violation of these rules (members should not expect details of their violation of the rules to be kept private because the trustees may need to explain action under the grievance procedures for transparency reasons) but, getting mail seems like a reasonable cause for suspicion that the rules might be being broken and, if you are complying with these rules, I cannot really see a reason to object to the trustees reading it. 

I am not familiar with the trustee's experience of what has happened in the past but, I would think that it shouldn't be difficult to get rid of any debt collector that contacts the trustees or anyone at the space by telling them that it is nothing to do with the space, having banned the member the debt is in the name of for violating the rules. Unless the member who incurred the debt is a trustee, I cannot see how they have any legal claim to expect anything other than a polite reply explaining the situation and telling them to never contact anyone at the Hackspace or any of its (remaining) members again about the matter. Continuing to do so, having been told the situation, would seem to qualify as harassment. (this is not informed legal advice/opinion, IANAL)

It seems like a bad idea to regard it as a breach of the rules to cause mail to arrive at the Hackspace addressed to you since companies often send unwanted mail to delivery addresses. I don't see the need to do anything else. I think stamping a piece of mail 'deceased' and returning it may be dodgy legally. If the are not a (current) member, stamping it 'not known at this address' and returning it seems reasonable though. 

In the case of the company registered to the space but, not to a member. I would urge the trustees to contact the directors and inform them that the Hackspace is not a reasonable place for them to have registered as their address and, that the trustees intend to inform company's house of the mistake. I believe company's house dissolves company's that it receives notification about an address being wrong for unless their directors promptly update it (a company registered to my sister's place of residence by someone who used to live there was recently dissolved for not having an accurate registered address after she returned mail to them addressed to the directors (after they sent mail to the registered address, her house, addressed to the directors informing them that this would happen unless they resolved the situation, which obviously wasn't any help to them). Having a company registered at the space that is not authorised seems to be a risk worth avoiding to me.

[Martin (Crypt)]

Opening someone elses mail is generally probably a bad idea because you can land yourself in a lot of legal trouble.  To quote the 2000 Postal Services Act:

“A person commits an offence if he, without reasonable excuse, intentionally delays or opens a postal packet in the course of its transmission by post, or intentionally opens a mail bag.”

“A person commits an offence if intending to act to a person’s detriment and without reasonable excuse, he opens a postal packet which he knows or reasonably suspects has been incorrectly delivered to him.”

A reading of this would put the trustees at risk of prosecution, depending on how you read 'reasonable excuse'.  In any case I doubt this is a good idea.  Like most other rules we can probably just rely on people to follow the rules, then take action if we find a problem.  Even if this was legal, I really doubt the trustees would want to go around opening everything delivered to the space personally, they already have enough work as it is.

[henry.best1%...@gtempaccount.com]

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 9:43:45 PM UTC, Nick Cripps wrote:

 If the are not a (current) member, stamping it 'not known at this address' and returning it seems reasonable though. 

"Gone away" or "No longer at this address" would be more accurate. (If they're ex-members, we did/do know them!)

Also including "RTS" (Return to sender) in large letters would be a good idea, so that the postman doesn't try to deliver them to us again and the sender gets the notification.

[henry.best1%...@gtempaccount.com]

On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 10:03:21 PM UTC, crys...@googlemail.com wrote:

Opening someone elses mail is generally probably a bad idea because you can land yourself in a lot of legal trouble.  To quote the 2000 Postal Services Act:

“A person commits an offence if he, without reasonable excuse, intentionally delays or opens a postal packet in the course of its transmission by post, or intentionally opens a mail bag.”

“A person commits an offence if intending to act to a person’s detriment and without reasonable excuse, he opens a postal packet which he knows or reasonably suspects has been incorrectly delivered to him.”

A reading of this would put the trustees at risk of prosecution, depending on how you read 'reasonable excuse'. 

The phrase "if intending to act to a person’s detriment" would appear to be the operative one in that law.

I cannot see how opening mail to check if it's detrimental to Hackspace could fall under that. If it does, surely our concerns would constitute a "reasonable excuse".

But IANAL. I'm just reading for comprehension.

In any case I doubt this is a good idea. 

I do, however, agree.