Storage Request #258: Bikeshed Extension by Charles Yarnold

[no-r...@london.hackspace.org.uk]

Bikeshed Extension
https://london.hackspace.org.uk/storage/258
by Charles Yarnold
24th Nov 2015 - 31st Mar 2016
Request for 4 months, 7 days in the yard (Next to the cabin)

See incoming email for a more detailed description than the system allows!

***If no one replies to this topic the request will be automatically approved within 7 days.***

[Charles Yarnold]

We used to have a request during the build for this but it was erroneously set to removed, apologies for the long delay in fixing this!

What is it?

This is a prototype for a larger set, we don't want to give away the surprise totally but will be shouting about the larger project very soon.

Plans for it?

We have filmed inside it for a crowdfunding campaign and are currently using it for an extra section when running the caravan for visitors. We will be starting a crowdfunding campaign the next few weeks. (the end product wouldn't be something to have at the hackspace)

Why is it still here?

Due to needing the van parked away from the radio shack to give them access, the current T shape of the van and corridor isn't taking up much extra space, and no usable parking space.

Going forward?

We have 3 main options.

Leave it erected to allow its use. (preferred)

Flat pack it down and strap to the long side of the van for smaller storage.

Scrap it/give to a set recycling group. (lest preferred)

Why so long a request?

We will need to run a funding campaign for a month, then a second funding step for 6 weeks. This would put us at 2.5 months, the extra time is for planning and any "oops" time we need to finish anything.

If its not gone at the end?

We are happy to give the trustees approval to trigger the set removal people to come take it away in the event we all get hit by a bus or decide to vanish from the space. Ideally if there is a reason we need more time we will request it ahead of time, if this is rejected we will trigger this ourself.

Liam has also pointed out that the structure itself has proven to be quite stable and as stood up to the elements quite well, with some tin roofing and waterproofing to the outside this could become the outside spraybooth and smelly chemicals room that has been talked about but never made. Should we get to the stage where it needs to be given away we will offer it to the hackspace if a group of members would like to take it on to modify it for this usage.

What the LHS Bikeshed been up to?

Been a while since we let the wider ML know about the van. Most notably we were recently flying the LHS flag at the V&A for their games night, where we had a q along the street to book a slot. Clare spent most of the night talking to people about the hackspace and telling them to come on down to a Tuesday open evening :)

If there is anything we missed or any more info people would like to know please ask :)

Sol

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[Nigel Worsley]

> We used to have a request during the build for this but it was erroneously
> set to removed

This could have easily been fixed in many ways, eg. submitting a new
storage request.

> apologies for the long delay in fixing this!

Long delay is a bit of an understatement, the original request was for
6 days but 6 MONTHS later it is still there without a valid storage
request. This is more than a little taking the piss, and playing into
the hands of those who feel that certain people are getting special
treatment.

It may well be awesome, but doesn't exempt the project from having to
obey the same rules that anyone else is required to abide by.

Nigle

[Charles Yarnold]

I can only apologise and try to correct this, I realise this will be taken into account by the community when judging the request.

[Nigel Worsley]

On 24 November 2015 at 01:15, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can only apologise and try to correct this, I realise this will be taken
> into account by the community when judging the request.

The current request is actually a fairly reasonable one, and I am sure
many people would like to see what the end result is. I vaguely recall
a similar 'we will reveal all soon' in the earlier days of the
project, but if that happened then I missed it. Not unknown, I am on a
LOT of mailing lists and my Gmail account has an archive of over half
a million messages!

Nigle

[Charles Yarnold]

We are happily telling people in person, but as we will be launching the campaign  online on a popular crowd funding site we don't want to loose any thunder from it leaking to the wider Internet or Google searches until it's ready to go live, that's the only drawback of the list being publicly indexed.

I hope that this request goes some way to fixing the transgression of the project over run and that our plan for its end of life is ok. It would have been much easier to sweep it under the rug, epesially with myself up for re election.

Either way, thanks all for letting us build and improve it over the last few months, people's input, enthusiasm and donations of space-y looking junk to modify and attach have been great.

Sol

[Tom Hodder]

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 01:37:00 UTC, Solexious wrote:

I hope that this request goes some way to fixing the transgression

I don't think it does. By a country mile.  So I vote against this request.

1) IMO your highly visible abuse of the storage rules has led to other members also abusing the storage rules, and pointing to yourself as an example. This has caused unnecessary pain and frustration for the other members and trustees.

2) The only reason you are making this request now, is because you are starting a kickstarter campaign, and you have suddenly realized that you need the general goodwill of the hackspace. This is completely cynical. Up until now you relied on your trustee status as protection against any complaints. Any other member would have have been complained about in no time and the project would have been forcibly removed to the trash, or they would have been charged for its removal.

[Martin (Crypt)]

I think no one is denying that a storage request should've been submitted earlier, but the bikeshed is one of the most visible examples of awesome things to come out of the hackspace.  Its been great publicity for the space, and one of the things we can point to when people ask "what goes on at hackspace?"  

I'm in support of this staying, as Charles says, its not really taking up any other easily usable space, and the project is being actively worked on and improved all the time.  

I look forward to the kickstarter and playing with the results. Good luck guys.

[Henry Sands]

I see no problem with this extension, the enablement Tom brought up doesn't hold any merit as people where squirrelling stuff away long before the bikeshed was even a thing.

It's a big project, involves a lot of members and gives everyone big smiles during public nights, I don't see why it can't stay longer.

[Marrold]

Can the extension be neatened up at all? No major issues with the caravan itself but the extension looks like something you'd find in a slum...

[Adrian Godwin]

I don't think the awesomeness excuses the delay, but I accept the apology and am glad to see a proper request. No objections from me.

I'm not fond of the attitude of 'you broke the rules so you can't have your way now'. If it's not applicable to a failure of this magnitude then I hope it never re-appears on anyone else's request.  I don't like to see corrected behaviour rewarded with punishment.

[JJ]

I'm in favour on the grounds that legitimising it now a deadline which is an improvement on the current state of uncertainty.  Do we understand that the timescale is set by the funding process or is there also work to be done, and if so has the British climate been factored in?

[Aden]

I know it's difficult for you not to be a bellend, but maybe you should try while you are running for trustee election.

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 7:16 AM, Tom Hodder <t...@limepepper.co.uk> wrote:

[Mark Steward]

This doesn't seem like corrected behaviour, more like a trustee(!) attempting to side-step the rules with a pathetic appeal to publicity for the space. Not getting round to filling out a storage request for a month might count as a transgression. But are you saying that if Fabio had just dropped an email to the list after 6 months saying his mum had told some people about the space, it would have been OK?

The van isn't frictionless for other members - tools have regularly "appeared" in the van, and there was outrage when someone used the tunnel for storing something overnight. It's massive fun for people involved, I'm sure, but I don't believe it's that great for the space as a whole.

I've held off complaining about the secret tunnel project because I was assured something awesome was going to be done with it. Now it turns out that awesome thing is the people involved getting paid to keep it here for another 6 months. And then presumably it'll be allowed to hang around until after EMF in August, so that's really 9 months.

I think the van and tunnel should be allowed 2 months maximum on sufferance to demonstrate that they will actually be worked on, and a deposit put down for removal of both. We can review after 6 weeks.

Mark

[deanforbes]

When I have mentioned this project in the past in other discussions ie why does the caravan not have a storage request I was told "it is a system bug" so this is not an oversight its arrogance that asides and abuse of position

It has been used as a blanket request for I want to store what ever I want 

It is a black hole for example a load of clamps are missing from the workshop it was pointed out that some of the were rottimng on the floor and made there way to the bins as they were beyond use now other are still holding the tunnel together

What I would hope for is 

a) detail of what is being done and when

b) a list of the material that is being stored 

c) a commitment to return tools to the workshop evry day and look after them

the space ship was hounded out of here like many other projects that would have been good if not better for Public Relations

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 00:23:47 UTC, no-r...@london.hackspace.org.uk wrote:

[deanforbes]

a lot of members keeps getting mentioned in this thread it may be usefull to share who has done what historically and when and the feed that into what you plan going forward if there are so many members involved it should not take more than a few weeks so why the rather lengthy request 

currently it isan  eye sore and fly magnet in my opinion and has been for some time but people have been to afraid to comment 

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 00:23:47 UTC, no-r...@london.hackspace.org.uk wrote:

[Graham Perdeaux]

Is this the metal hoop-like structure next to the caravan?

If so, I'm glad there's finally an indication on the mailing list of what it is!

If there's no immediate/firm plans for it's use, I think flat packing it would be best, it's only what the collective would ask of any project.

If it's definitely going to be used next month for example, and taking in down involves unbolting it all, then it should probably stay up.

I'd like to take this opportunity, while we're discussing the 'bike shed'/caravan, to say that I'm sure it's not just occasional visitors like me who have no idea what it's about - I know the caravan was/is a simulator/gaming immersion room of sorts (who can use it?) but what is the hoop for? And the cabin that was taken off the roof and touted to become a smelly room for things that couldn't be done in the basement - what is it/not being used for now?

Also just to say, the primary use of the yard *is* a carpark, even if you don't want to call it such. The parking restrictions outside mean that it is essential there is always space free for those who come from afar to park so they can use the space.

[Tom Sands]

The primary use of the yard is as an outside work space, car parking is just a bonus.

[Simon Howes]

Just to add a voice: I'm for LHS Bikeshed.
I think the dudes are "flying the flag" and that in the broader-context its a good thing for the space as a whole (publicity, notoreity and just plain coolness-factor. The way peoples eyes light up when you're showing them the space and tell them about the spaceship simulator!).

Sort the storage request though!

[Marrold]

Just for the record when I attended my first open evening, I was told the LHS Bikeshed *used* to be open on a Tuesday, but hadn't been for sometime as the project had been in effect - abandoned.

This might be wrong, but that was the impression I was given.

[Russ Garrett]

On 24 November 2015 at 11:26, Marrold <*@marrold.co.uk> wrote:
> Just for the record when I attended my first open evening, I was told the
> LHS Bikeshed *used* to be open on a Tuesday, but hadn't been for sometime as
> the project had been in effect - abandoned.

That's not the case - it was open last Tuesday.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Russ Garrett]

On 24 November 2015 at 11:02, deanforbes <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:
> When I have mentioned this project in the past in other discussions ie why
> does the caravan not have a storage request I was told "it is a system bug"
> so this is not an oversight its arrogance that asides and abuse of position

This is a storage request for the tunnel, which is the part in front
of the Bikeshed, not the caravan itself.

The Bikeshed itself is subject to a storage system bug, because the
storage system isn't designed to support continuously-renewing storage
requests.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[deanforbes]

@Russ sure so here is actually a bug (I thought it was designed like that for a reason) and it takes nearly a year to put in a new request which would be obvious mitigation that would have been asked of anyone else 

@Genral 

the issues with the way this has been conducted are 

1) The abuse of storage rules i.e used as a blanket request for any and everything for a small group

2) The abuse and disregard for hackspace kit

3) General housekeeping and hygiene 

Questions

1) what are they doing in some detail

2) how are they doing it what bits are they bring in (buckets of industrial waste or scrap lying in the car seemingly abandoned) that no one is comfortable commenting on as it is rumored to belong to the trustee with a Jesus like mural on the wall looking over them) 

3) who is doing it as they say there is a large team 

4) what are the time frames in weeks or months for the tasks (broken down to some extent please) 

If these could be sufficiently answered and assurances or guarantees put in place  I would actually support this.

I am awesome or stuff is not appropriate or adequate in my view  even, if you get a very small collection (in terms of membership)  of sycophantic fans to go awesome!!! awesome!!! awesome!!!

What would happen if I treated any of my projects like this, what reception did the Luton van received which was similar to the caravan for example in terms of development and approach

On Tuesday, 24 November 2015 00:23:47 UTC, no-r...@london.hackspace.org.uk wrote:

[Mark Steward]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 11:53 AM, deanforbes <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:

@Russ sure so here is actually a bug (I thought it was designed like that for a reason) and it takes nearly a year to put in a new request which would be obvious mitigation that would have been asked of anyone else 

Agreed. Not sure why a new request is difficult, except that it might result in objections.

The storage bug is actually feature request, and I've just raised a ticket:

  https://github.com/londonhackspace/hackspace-foundation-sites/issues/124

Mark

[Des Quilty]

From Russ

"The Bikeshed itself is subject to a storage system bug, because the
storage system isn't designed to support continuously-renewing storage
requests. "

Perhaps I'm missing something here,

But I would assume that we would NOT want the storage system to have continuously renewing storage requests. If a member wants to store something long-term it is either loaned on a long-term basis, for the benefit of all members while it is being loaned, or it is HackSpace infrastructure. Any other storage request should come up for scrutiny if the member felt that they needed to extend on their original storage request.

[Russ Garrett]

On 24 November 2015 at 12:11, Des Quilty <des.q...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Any
> other storage request should come up for scrutiny if the member felt that
> they needed to extend on their original storage request.

Yes, that's the intention.

The Bikeshed is not Hackspace infrastructure, it's a group project run
by a subset of members. It should be subject to periodic review.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[David Murphy]

>"it was open last Tuesday."

That's good to know.
I was starting to worry since it was always a good one to take groups out to but it hadn't been running Tuesdays for quite a while.

I agree it's bad form to have no request for the tunnel.
I'd assumed there was one. I'm inclined to scowl at this but I also don't want the bikeshed kicked out. 

[deanforbes]

as a functioning exhibit it fine in fact great but as a large private storage box for the members involved it is wholly inappropriate or a repository for anything that they want to do  that otherwise would be subject to a storage request

[Martin (Crypt)]

It would be good maybe for groups to update us more often, maybe formalise a standard that a subgroup should post some kind of blog/update to the space every few months or so.  I'm not saying we enforce this rigorously, but it would be good to see what each group is up to, and would possibly encourage people to get more involved in the community and projects going on.  Just an idea, but might work out well.

But Dean, please don't caricature a large group of dedicated members as sycophants who bow down in praise to a jesus mural, it adds nothing to the discussion and you really shouldn't be lowering this to personal insults

--

[deanforbes]

@Martin an observation is not an insult however thanks for contributing a constructive suggestion in terms of updates personally I think requiring all to comply with  (and apply consistently ) existing boundaries should be enough 

[Lex Robinson]

On Tue, 24 Nov 2015 at 14:45 deanforbes <m...@deanforbes.com> wrote:

@Martin an observation is not an insult

This is not the case, I'm pretty sure I could make many observations that you would find insulting. 

[Charles Yarnold]

Hello all,

Apologies for not replying during the day, had quite the full day at work and didn't want to make short replies that could be taken as dismissive or rude. Going to do one big reply and address the points raised so far, apologies if I miss anything, please do point it out to me.

Timing is because we are starting a kickstarter appeal and need the goodwill of the hackspace:

This isn't the case, we have found during the test build that the hackspace metal workshop isn't a good fit for the project. With the amount of work needed to build the full version we wouldn't be able to do it without getting too underfoot of everyone else, while we will be doing small parts of the build at the space (things done in a day with no storage or fitting in members boxes) but we won't be doing the full build at the hackspace as it wouldn't be fun for either us or other workshop members.

Can the extension be neatened up at all? No major issues with the caravan itself but the extension looks like something you'd find in a slum...

Totally. Sadly I tired to be clever and changed how we were waterproofing the corridor. This hasn't worked and the top and side waterproofing has ripped off. I'm in NYC 24/11 - 04/12 but will spend the whole weekend of the 5/12 Re Waterproofing, cleaning it up and will give the yard as a whole a clean at the same time by way of a very small apology. Ideally we need to keep it up to allow it to dry out, if we have to flat pack it we will wrap it so tightly that it will seal moisture in and make working on it impossible as building it takes the better part of a day.

was outrage when someone used the tunnel for storing something overnight

For my part I requested them to move the item due to what it was and the current drying process happening inside.

Now it turns out that awesome thing is the people involved getting paid to keep it here for another 6 months. And then presumably it'll be allowed to hang around until after EMF in August, so that's really 9 months.

The request is 4 months, not 6. No one will be getting paid during this time. What is being made won't be able to easily travel to EMF, as well as it will take more time to erect and setup than EMF would allow. As I said in the original request I'm happy to give the trustees approval to have a set reclamation company take it away at the end of the 4 month request if we haven't sorted it. Along with this Liam has suggested it being turned into a smelly and spray booth. I'm also happy to pay the trustees a deposit to help with removal if that helps, but most people will be happy to take a load of steel off your hands for free.

tl;dr Its a request for a maximum of 4 months, it can be axed by the trustees if not. No it can't go to EMF.

Just for the record when I attended my first open evening, I was told the LHS Bikeshed *used* to be open on a Tuesday, but hadn't been for sometime as the project had been in effect - abandoned.

Sorry to hear that, its definitely not abandoned! There is always something new being installed, hardware of software. Will work harder to show this with updates and Tuesday open evenings. If we are at London events we normally tell people to check out the space on a Tuesday and to come and fly the ship.

What about the items inside it.

Currently the items inside are all for building it and maintaining it (as far as I'm aware, stuff does get brought in by people not connected). I can't give a detailed list right now as I'm at home.

Tools found inside.

Inside the tunnel. I have always taken the time to remove any tools not belonging to us from inside at the end of the working day on it. I haven't had anyone pull me up on missing tools found inside. If this has happened I can only apologise, if someone can let me know what tools were found broken inside I will replace them. During the main section of the build our tools including our work lights were removed and used despite them being labeled.

Inside the van. Its funny that people say this, on quite a number of occasions people have thought they were "liberating" hackspace tools from the van when all they were doing was emptying my personal toolbox, this is now quite depleted. I have left a hammer in there before, I'm sorry about that.

Best

Sol

[Brendan Sleight]

Sol - thanks for addressing the points in detail. I just scrapped the long list of questions I had and now changed my view. 
My 2p worth - I now in favour of the storage request.

[Charles Yarnold]

Cheers Brendan, but feel free to ask anything I haven't covered!

On 24 November 2015 at 22:59, Brendan Sleight <b...@barwap.com> wrote:

Sol - thanks for addressing the points in detail. I just scrapped the long list of questions I had and now changed my view. 
My 2p worth - I now in favour of the storage request.

--

[Charles Yarnold]

Hello all,

(this was meant to go out Sunday night but I forgot to hit send)

Just a quick update, as I didn't hear anything more about my replies and plan I've been in Sunday working on the appearance of the corridor. It wasn't both days as I'm currently down with a bug and feel like poop, but wanted to get a start on it to show its being addressed and will continue Tuesday evening.

So far I have taken off the tatty tarps down one side and cleared the roof of detritus (thanks whoever threw the traffic cone onto the roof :/ ).

Added foam to the sharp corners of the frame to stop tearing that removed the roof protection before.

Added new roof protection and made it ready for the weather.

Cleaned up down one side and threw away the old waterproofing.

Started an internal clean.

Sorted the front covering to hang correctly and stay attached.

Sadly screwfix lied and only had a few clamps in stock, so I need more but the base level of attachment is there. All new bikeshed production clamps are on it now and sprayed silver (sadly no sharpies to write on them, will sort Tuesday.

Todo,

Clean down between the corridor and cabin.

Finish clean inside the corridor.

Put fresh tarps on the one side.

General yard clean.

Photos, 

before: https://www.dropbox.com/s/zzlrjtdtvfwh06g/2015-12-06%2016.11.27.jpg?dl=0

protection: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1inxq53u1yogjyu/2015-12-06%2016.58.01.jpg?dl=0

removing tarps: https://www.dropbox.com/home/Camera%20Uploads?preview=2015-12-06+17.13.25.jpg

after: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5sogre7x9l9ixqc/2015-12-06%2019.05.02.jpg?dl=0

show 'em the clamps! https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocw5plv17keorio/2015-12-06%2017.05.26.jpg?dl=0

[Charles Yarnold]

Hello all,

Belated update to work that happened during the week.

The roof is still holding steady and tarps are now attached to the side again.

I've continued the cleanup down the sides and inside the corridor.

Best,

Sol

p.s. as there have been no negative replies to my replies and updates to the request and its been 18 days, could someone set it to approved?

[no-r...@london.hackspace.org.uk]

Status changed to Approved with the reason 'Lots of chatter, but objections answered with out further questions. ' by Kimball Johnson

[Charles Yarnold]

Hello all,

Thanks again for letting us keep working on the project at the space.

While our initial mothball storage location has fallen through I have a new location for us to move it to, only issue is I can't move it in till this weekend. We will be in during the week to start prepping it for removal, but I would like to request a 4 day extension to take us to the weekend when we can move it in.

Hope that's ok,

Best

Sol

On 12 Dec 2015 18:10, <no-r...@london.hackspace.org.uk> wrote:

Status changed to Approved with the reason 'Lots of chatter, but objections answered with out further questions. ' by Kimball Johnson

--

[tgreer]

I have no objections to this small extension. I would ask that you clean the area of the yard once you've left for screws etc so we don't get punctures!

Thanks

[JJ]

No objection either, but will the caravan itself be moving too or another extension requested for it?  Also last time I looked it was still sheltering some mobility scooters under a separate storage request, currently passed deadline with no explanation from the owner Andy.

[no-r...@london.hackspace.org.uk]

Status changed to Removed by Charles Yarnold