Proposal for a space in the yard to store and dry timber for use by all Hackspace members

[edra...@googlemail.com]

Hi,

I am interested in setting up an area of approximately 1.5 meters by 3 meters in the Hackspace yard in order to stack some fresh timber for use by any Hackspace members in the dusty wood shop. Although there are usually some pieces of timber available on the wood rack in the wood shop, these are often of unsuitable dimensions and are not of particularly good quality. It would be beneficial for members to have access to a supply of timber better suited for wood working.

There are trees that are felled in London and the surrounding areas, including in people's gardens, that get cut up into firewood. Some of the trees contain timber that could be used for wood work rather than burned on a fire. I think that there is potential to source these trees for relatively little money and perhaps occasionally for free.

I am in the process of setting myself up with a chainsaw mill (example images attached) in order to convert trees into timber. I would like to be clear up front that I am considering doing this independently on a small profit making basis at some point in the future, but for now it is a hobby. I am fully aware that the Hackspace cannot be used for profit making activities.

I am therefore proposing to offer my time and the chainsaw mill for free to produce a small amount of timber to be stacked to dry in the Hackspace yard, for use by Hackspace members. The timber would require at least 12 months to air dry in a free standing stack with some plastic sheeting or corrugated plastic laid on top for cover. For the timber to dry correctly, it would need to be located outside rather than in the building. I would need to cover costs such as transport and fuel and I would of course be fully transparent about these costs. My interest is to get some practice using the chainsaw mill to produce timber. The benefit to Hackspace members would be a low cost source of timber suitable for wood working.

I have discussed this proposal with Will Usher, one of the founders of the PL(A)YWOOD group at the Hackspace who has indicated that he is supportive of the idea. If Hackspace members are happy with this proposal in principle, then it would be necessary to discuss the details including arrangements and responsibilities for managing the stack, using the timber etc.. I could offer to set up the stack up, but I will be moving out of London early next year so my involvement from that point would be very limited.

I look forward to your comments!

Ed

[Henry Sands]

Chainsaw mill, awesome!

Timber in the UK is extremely expensive so I wholeheartedly support this.

Just to be clear to people not in the know, you have to leave freshly cut trees to dry out before you can use them properly, sometimes for up to a year dependant on the species.

[Charles Yarnold]

This is wood that might be useful to someone in a year. This will take up a parking space and cost us around £200 to store until its ready to be used, then how ever long it stays for after that. Verses going to the timber yard in walking distance and buying what you need for your project when you need it, I'm not sure its an amazing deal. I'm only commenting on the cost and availability of this proposal though, it is interesting.

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[Adrian Godwin]

Properly seasoned and 'interesting' timber is expensive from a timber yard - it's not like low quality pine for building construction. We have many spots in the car park that are unusable for cars  - either because they're an awkward maneuver, full of nails, or just poorly utilised. I think this is good.

Note to ed : it's OK to use the hackspace for commercial projects, and many people do - including Charles. This is absolutely fine in my opinion. It wouldn't be OK to to use the car park as a commercial timber storage yard, but that's a long way from what you're suggesting. It's only a problem if it makes long-term use of some hackspace facility unavailable to other members.

[Martin (Crypt)]

While this sounds like a good idea, I do have a bit of a concern about how efficient it would be.  We'd be reserving a reasonable space in the car park for a year before we got any results.  I have a few quesitons

* Would we then have to move the wood inside and let another lot of wood mature for a year?.  

* How much usable wood would we get from this?

* Have people used this type of wood for projects in the past, and what usage would be foreseeable in the future if it were available?

* In reality how much money would this save people, and how much better would it make people projects?

If the benefits to people working here were good enough, I would have no issue with this, but at the moment it seems like a year long project that is going to yield not a huge amount of wood, considering the time and space resources it is consuming, and only having results once a year.

 

[Billy]

One suggestion, there's a wood yard in Bow called the Leaside Wood Recycling Project. You can find their website here, http://lwrp.org.uk/

They have a wood-miser, basically a mobile planker, that they use to turn trees into usable planks, as well as the space to dry them out for use.

I've spoken to them before to get a trade account set up for the hackspace.

Give them a shout from me. Tell them i'm the fiddle-playing friend of Charles Seber, and they should know who you're talking about.

One friend who bought some yew planks from them, french-polished them, and the shelves she built came out looking like they were made from honey... :D

[Ian Henderson]

I'm in favour of this

BTW it's also possible to make use of green timber I.e. Timber that has not dried for some project if you don't mind the shrinkage.

Also, I've read about a project that took the exhaust from a central heating boiler, pumped it into a drying cabinet, and was able to dry wood in just a few days.

[Chris Ward]

I too am in favour of this. Would also be very interested in helping with the milling.

[Tom Sands]

I'm not 100% on this proposal, it's essentially marking out an area of the yard indefinitly for a product that is easily aquired from elsewhere when necessary. What are the requirements for storing and drying wood? Surely they need to be kept dry right? How do you plan on doing this for an entire year?

[Henry Sands]

A tarp should suffice

[Henry Sands]

A tarp should suffice

[Rob Kam]

It's a useful experience in processing timber from felled trees, (which otherwise might go to waste). It would make a great deal more of the raw material available than there would be by economical purchase from the usual suppliers. It could be a supply of interesting hardwoods for the space.

The requirements are about the size a tree trunk, cut into planks and stacked with gaps between to allow air to circulate. About the size of long seats for people to use when there is a barbecue. The stacks can be sited where they'd be less of an intrusion.

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From: Tom Sands <itst...@gmail.com>
To: london-h...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, 1 May 2015, 9:25
Subject: [london-hack-space] Re: Proposal for a space in the yard to store and dry timber for use by all Hackspace members

I'm not 100% on this proposal, it's essentially marking out an area of the yard indefinitly for a product that is easily aquired from elsewhere when necessary. What are the requirements for storing and drying wood? Surely they need to be kept dry right? How do you plan on doing this for an entire year?

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 23:19:12 UTC+1, Chris Ward wrote:

I too am in favour of this. Would also be very interested in helping with the milling.

[Des Quilty]

I'm 50/50 about this..some thoughts below..

 

1) Who is going to supply/pay for transportation of tree trunks to hackspace with appropriate lifting gear to move trunks into an appropriate spot

2) I'd imagine the dried wood is still going to be in pretty large planks after the hacksaw mill, and the picture attached above seems to agree with that.
I don't think we have anything big enough to thin down the wood down into useful planks of say 8" x 3/4" afterwards?

A commercial large bandsaw is what would really be needed. With the tools we have now (circular saw, smallish bandsaw) might we end up having to cut the planks into such small widths to cut down the thickness, that they aren't really that useful in the first place?

[Henry Sands]

We have hand saws, circular saws and a large bandsaw. There was a time when power tools didn't exist.

[edra...@googlemail.com]

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments! Here are some responses to the concerns that have been raised:

Cost - there are a number of variables involved here including the price paid for the trees, chainsaw fuel and oil consumption, the distance from Hackspace, type of transport to move the cut timber, dimensions cut, etc.. These variables and the lack of prior experience make it difficult to come up with an accurate cost. My estimate is £10 per ft3 of cut timber. In contrast, air dried timber from timber merchants ranges in cost from approximately £20 to £40 per ft3 depending on the species and the grade/quality.

Transport – to clarify, the planks would be cut at the tree’s location and transported to Hackspace by trailer or van. I am not proposing to transport whole tree trunks to the Hackspace yard to be cut up. I think that the dimensions of the cut timber would need to be small enough to be moved by a couple of people by hand. The chainsaw mill offers some flexibility in the dimensions that can be cut.

Storing and drying the wood – the timber would need to be stored outside as an open stack to air dry for at least 12 months (depending on the species and the thickness). During this time the stack would need to be strapped and/or weighted down and the top covered by plastic sheeting or corrugated plastic to keep it dry. Following air drying outside, timber could be moved indoors. As Ian mentioned in his post, some of the timber might also be used undried/green if members wish.

Volume of timber – this depends on the dimensions of the timber cut. I estimate that the proposed area would provide enough space for 60 to 80 ft3 of timber, if stacking up to 1.5m in height.

Usage of the wood – I believe that the timber would be useful for members personal wood work projects. Will Usher from the PL(A)YWOOD group has indicated that a supply of timber of this type would benefit PLAYWOOD members.

Chris, thanks for your interest in being involved in chainsaw milling. I'd be happy to chat with you about it if this goes ahead!

Best,

Ed

[Ian Henderson]

Ed

I don't know if you've bought your mill yet but also have a look at this system

http://www.logosol.co.uk/sawmills/big-mill-system/big-mill-timberjig.html

Much cheaper and doesn't rely on a ladder for a guide rail

I own a small wood in Wales and I'm currently thinking of buying this system for use there

http://www.logosol.co.uk/sawmills/farmers-sawmill/

--Ian

[Ed Ramsay]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for your email. I've considered the logsol timberjig but I'm probably going to get an Alaskan mill as I would like the ability to cut wide boards and I think that the timberjig is less well suited to that application.

The farmers sawmill looks great! I'd be interested to hear your experiences of using it, should you decide to get one.

Best,

Ed

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[Billy]

Have you looked at the Open Source Ecology toolchain?

They have a functioning sawmill... http://opensourceecology.org/portfolio/sawmill/

[Simon Howes]

Turn off back_face_culling?

On 1 May 2015 15:25, "Martin (Crypt)" <crys...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I'm still very unsure about the value of this, but just a quick point.  How do you intend to get 60 - 80 cubic ft of timber out of this?  You've asked for an area 1.5m x 3m x 1.5m high.  If you use this for a year, you will get 6.75 cubic meters of timber (roughly 22 cubic ft), although not all of this space would be usable, because you have stated that you need gaps in between the timber, so the actual amount is likely to be much smaller.  This seems to be a long way from your estimate of 60 - 80 cubic feet

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[Adrian Godwin]

there seems to be undue concern about the use of the car park. Currently we use about 20% of the yard, rising to about 40% when full of cars. There is considerable empty space but it's unusable for parking, or trashed.

Why not just use the space more effectively ?

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Martin (Crypt) <crys...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I'm still very unsure about the value of this, but just a quick point.  How do you intend to get 60 - 80 cubic ft of timber out of this?  You've asked for an area 1.5m x 3m x 1.5m high.  If you use this for a year, you will get 6.75 cubic meters of timber (roughly 22 cubic ft), although not all of this space would be usable, because you have stated that you need gaps in between the timber, so the actual amount is likely to be much smaller.  This seems to be a long way from your estimate of 60 - 80 cubic feet

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 3:10 PM, Billy <bi...@billycomputersmith.com> wrote:

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[Charles Yarnold]

I think your estimates of peak usage are very low. Lately when parking it has been quite hard at peak times not to block people in, with the remaining free space needed to turn around and manoeuvre cars into and out of the space. I'm not saying its impossible, just 40% is way too low an estimate, when usable space is taking into consideration. 

[Adrian Godwin]

But that's my point : the maximum occupancy is low because so much of the space is unusable.

[Rich Maynard]

I think this is a great idea, and I also think we can find somewhere to put the stack that isn't a full car parking space.

RichM.

[Henry Sands]

Maybe against some kind of wall in some kind of corner.

[Adrian Godwin]

The old-iron space in the rear left corner ? The bonfire storage space in the rear right corner ? 

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[Paddy Duncan]

The entire northeast portion is covered in all kinds of shite. Feel free to clear a space ...

[James Cattell]

I'm in favour.

Ta,

@jaCattell

[invent_or]

Perhaps a silly question, but what is going to happen to all the saw dust? Because there is going to be loads, all over the car park.

Or is this just a storage request for a load of boards/planks?

[Billy]

Add a built-in vacuum-cleaner to catch the sawdust.

Sawdust makes an excellent ingredient for compost.

[deanforbes]

A very good idea but a very poor suggestion for the hackspace in my opinion 

We simply don't have the discipline to see  it through, and have we thought it through i.e who will access this timber once it is in place, free for all to use like other material that is at the space ? will it be chunked down to a usable size for the equipment that we have at the space if other equipment is required will it be purchased by this group and like the area that has been suggested who will get rid of it when its not used or deal with all the waste this is also the members first post since he has joined, what is the track record ? 

When all the factors are taken into account it does not make commercial sense either (material, time , space) as mentioned this is the  members first post since he has joined, what is his intent

Perhaps the supporters should start a wiki project the list the way they see this proposed project happening as is the standard for hackspace group projects once enough support has been garnered 

emotionally it gives me a warm fuzzy - practically I see it as an abuse of and a night mare for the space 

On Thursday, 30 April 2015 11:59:49 UTC+1, edra...@googlemail.com wrote:

Hi,

[Des Quilty]

Am I right in reading that the project is asking for the below costs to be paid for by HackSpace?

 

Cost - there are a number of variables involved here including the price paid for the trees, chainsaw fuel and oil consumption, the distance from Hackspace, type of transport to move the cut timber, dimensions cut, etc.. These variables and the lack of prior experience make it difficult to come up with an accurate cost. My estimate is £10 per ft3 of cut timber. In contrast, air dried timber from timber merchants ranges in cost from approximately £20 to £40 per ft3 depending on the species and the grade/quality.

 

If so HackSpace is buying wood for projects as yet unknown..and also making risky assuming the wood produced will be the correct size and quality for these unknown projects..If there is a lot of cutting down then the cost per ft3 will increase depending on the wastage..

 

Apologies if I've read this wrong..

[Ian Henderson]

There seems to be some misunderstanding about this proposal, which can be resolved by reading the full thread...

The proposal is FREE to Hackspace, no cost is involved and no charge is being made for the wood that will be available for FREE after it has dried.

Also, all the milling will take place off site, probably at the source of the timber, therefore no sawdust will be created, other than when the sawn timber will be processed in the woodworking room.

As previously stated, I'm in favour of the proposal.

--Ian

[Billy]

Ok.

Wrong end of the stick grasped.

+1 from me. It means we'll need to sort out more effective use of the yard, and that's a good thing.

[Cameron Dobbs]

Is there definitely no cost for the wood? I read it as Ed would offer his time and the mill usage for free but we would need to cover the cost of the timber, although it should be cheap and hopefully free. I think he was estimating £10 per ft3, and storing 60-80 ft3 so this would be £600-800.

(Apologies if I misunderstood the proposition)

That would mean an upfront cost, which we'd have to come up with in some way but perhaps we get people to pay those costs per ft3 as they use the materials in a year or so.

Still, sounds like it could be a good idea since it would work out so much cheaper. How quickly do we expect to be able to get through that amount?

Cameron

[Will]

My understanding is that there is no upfront financial cost to the space, and the only cost of any kind is the need to offer up a relatively small piece of the yard for a year.

Then, if individuals would like to use some of the timber, there would be a small charge paid to Ed to cover the costs of the timber.  I think we'd need to think carefully how this could be managed, how to prevent the wood from disappearing, and what do to in the case of some disagreement between Ed and the other hackspace members.

Other than that, I would personally welcome a cheap supply of good quality interesting timber, and it would be great for the many members of the PL(A)YWOOD group who ask me (every week) "where is the best place to get timber?"  We know have an imminently wired up and ACNodes bandsaw, table saw and planer/thicknesser to take seasoned waney edge timber, and turn it into something that can be used.

The devil is in the details, so I'd be interested to hear what are Ed's ideas for how this would work in practice.

Will

[Tim Reynolds]

Anything useful in the hackspace will be used, if not nailed down or
locked away. If it's the case that money will change hands further down
the road, I'd look into more secure ways of storing it.

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[edra...@googlemail.com]

Thanks for all the comments!

All timber would be cut at the tree’s location so this would not generate any saw dust in the Hackspace yard.

I would provide my time and the use of the chainsaw mill for free but I would need to recover the cost of cutting and transporting the timber which would include any cost incurred in buying the trees, fuel and oil for the chainsaw and van hire to transport the timber back to Hackspace. My rough estimate of these costs is £10 per ft3 of timber produced. I hope that this is clear now, sorry if it was not clear from my earlier posts.

Will makes a good point about the need to arrange managing the stack, distributing timber and covering the costs. I have outlined some thoughts on how to do this and what I could offer in terms of my involvement below. I would welcome any other suggestions.

The best time to cut and stack hardwood timber is from autumn time after the hotter summer months are over (in order to minimise drying defects). The stack would therefore not be dry until at least autumn of next year. As I mentioned in my first post, I will be leaving London early next year. I can offer to set up the stack up in the Hackspace yard to dry, including strapping it in place. Until the time that I leave London, I would be able to check on the stack every couple of weeks although normally there should be no need to take any action until the timber is air dried. After I leave London, my involvement would be much more limited, but I would be able visit every couple of months and check the moisture content of the timber until it is air dry.

Since I will no longer be living in London once the timber is dry and ready for use, it would not be practical for me to regularly visit Hackspace to distribute timber from the stack to members and collect money to cover the cost. I could however offer to arrange one or two occasions at which to allocate all the air dried timber from the stack to members who are interested and recover the costs at that time. This could be arranged on a first come first serve basis and if the demand is high then there could be a limit on the volume of timber that each member can take.

The individual pieces of timber could then be labelled with member’s names and do not hack labels and left in the stack in the yard to be progressively moved into the Hackspace building to the timber rack by those members. If there were any disagreements over the timber at the time of distribution, for instance relating to any defects or quality issues that make some of the timber unsuitable for use or if any timber was left unwanted by members, then I could offer to remove that portion of the timber from the yard (I would not expect to recover the cost of that portion of the timber). After distributing the timber and recovering the costs, it would not be feasible for me to take any further responsibility for the timber. A solution could be that the members who have taken ownership of the timber, arrange to manage the stack of their timber in the yard between themselves, until the timber has been used/moved inside.

Tim commented that in the yard ‘anything not nailed down or locked away will be used’. This is a concern for me as I would have up fronted the costs described above (the estimated £10 per ft3) and I would not be able to recover those costs if the timber disappeared while drying. Timber disappearing from the yard might also be a concern for members once they take ownership of it. The timber would be strapped in place and the stack could also be marked with a ‘do not hack sign’. I had thought that this would be sufficient to prevent the timber from disappearing. I would appreciate comments on whether this is likely to offer enough security! If there is likely to be a problem with timber disappearing, then it might be difficult to go ahead with the proposal as enclosing the stack to better secure it could interfere with the drying process.

Given people’s concerns over space in the yard and the issue of timber disappearing, one option could be to do this on a smaller scale than I had originally proposed, to produce half the volume of timber. This would take up less space in the yard and from my point of view, would reduce the financial burden on me should the timber disappear while drying in the yard.

[Adrian Godwin]

It would seem more reasonable to collect the money by pledge from interested users. They would then 'own' the stack and could manage, protect and re-sell it as appropriate without leaving the risk on you.

The need for an up-front pledge payment would also ensure that a reasonable number of members are shown to support the idea.

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[edra...@googlemail.com]

Thank you for the suggestion. I would be happy with this arrangement although if it means that the members participating in the pledge take ownership of the timber at the point that it is freshly cut and stacked, then they would need to be prepared to assume the risk of any defects in the timber that might occur while it is drying.

[Will]

I think that would be fine, as long as it was reflected in the price.  And, I think the pledgers would be fully aware, and kind of interested in the process too.  So, next step, set up a pledge on the wiki!

Will

[edra...@googlemail.com]

To update this thread, I have set up a pledge on the wiki here: https://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Pledge:_Timber_for_woodwork_projects

Ed