Members and non members?

[Philip McGaw]

What is the official line on non-members using facilities?

I have been a paying member (£5 pcm) since almost the start of London Hackspace, yet have physically been in the space only a handful of times.

Every so often I see on this list mention of people who have been in the space on occasion, or are attached to other groups (occupy etc) who use resources (including space) but are not members.

What are the arrangements regarding these groups are they reciprocal agreements, or loan of space ie occupy members. And what are the arrangements regarding accessing the space as a "trial" or on an "ad hoc" basis.

Philip McGaw
--

Philip McGaw

07969 502 077 | Phi...@JustVigilantes.co.uk | http://philipmcgaw.com | http://JustVigilantes.co.uk
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JustVigilantes | LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/philipmcgaw

[Russ Garrett]

On 22 October 2012 14:27, Philip McGaw <Phi...@mcgaw.eu> wrote:
> What is the official line on non-members using facilities?

There is no requirement to be a member to use London Hackspace.
However, it is strongly encouraged. If non-members are using the space
frequently, members are encouraged to make it clear to them how the
space is funded.

Personally, I'm not averse to making this policy stricter, but any
attempt to change it needs to take into account issues not limited to:

- People who turn up very irregularly and stick some money in the donations tin.
- People from abroad staying for a couple of months who don't have a
UK bank account and donate money.
- People visiting town who want to use the space for a few days.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Jonty Wareing]

We have an open-access policy. Anybody is allowed to use the space
as long as a member is happy for them to be there. Any member can
ask a non-member to leave if they are causing problems.

We are going to be instituting access control linked to member cards
on many of the major tools in the space very soon, which as a side
effect will mean they become member-only.

--jonty

[tgreer]

On Monday, 22 October 2012 14:46:36 UTC+1, Jonty Wareing wrote:

We are going to be instituting access control linked to member cards
on many of the major tools in the space very soon, which as a side
effect will mean they become member-only.

This is news. Last I heard, non members could register a card for tool use... 

[Jonty Wareing]

----- Original Message -----
> From: "tgreer" <ukt...@gmail.com>

> This is news. Last I heard, non members could register a card for tool
> use...

That has never been the plan, cards will be deactivated when members
stop paying, using the same system as door access.

--jonty

[tgreer]

How will you deal with the 'can i borrow your card' situation?

[Aden]

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:07 PM, tgreer <ukt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How will you deal with the 'can i borrow your card' situation?
>

The the card lender then would be fully responsible for breakages,
etc, so unlikely to do it unless it's someone they trust.

[Jonty Wareing]

That's fine, you're taking responsibility for the person using that
machine. If it ends up damaged or in a mess, you will be blamed and
warned.

--jonty

[tgreer]

SO can we not do that with non members in the space... have to be trusted/approved by a member who takes responsibility for them?

[Mark Steward]

Only if you know they're a member.  People aren't allowed to share cards for door access, so I'm not sure they should be sharing cards for equipment that may require training either.

I'd vote for Just Say No.

Mark

[Robert Morris]

Hi,

I'd just like to throw my 2p-worth in here as, whilst the original msg
wasn't specifically directed at me, there's an obvious implication...

I'm not currently a member not out of laziness or financial selfishness but
simply because, shortly after having been introduced to the space by a
friend, I became involved in a housing co-op project which has consumed
literally all my free time over the past 12-18 months; had that not have
happened, I'd quite possibly have become a member of LHS then, and remain
interested (hence my being on this list).

I don't expect to use tools and facilities without making a financial
contribution - whether that be through regular membership payment or one-off
donation. The request for help with my van project is the first potential
use by me of the space (and in fact pretty much the first non-housing,
non-work thing I'm doing for over a year!).

I would caution against going too far down the "you must be a member" route
though: like the co-operatives I'm invovled with, a hackspace is a concept
that newcomers won't automatically be familiar with, and the openness
currently practiced allows people plenty of time to "acclimatise" themselves
before making a commitment to join: I think pressuring people into a
join/don't join decision too soon might have unwanted side-effects.

Also, regarding the proposal that this list should be members only, apart
from exceptional circumstances: I can see why this would be useful from a
practical point of view, but being a "lurker" on this list has enabled me to
learn lots of valuable lessons from all the collective wisdom that's been
built up running a community organisation over the past 18 months. I think
it'd be a shame if the opportunity for all sorts of people to learn from LHS
in this way was cut off.

Regards,

Robert

[Charles Yarnold]

Ah, then I may have been confusing people when talking about the system. I had thought this was an option but that it had not been concluded.

That said I'm in favour of making the space much more members only to encourage those who use the space for free to become members without needing prodding from others to do so. This would help with that. 

[Sam Kelly]

Another option is for us to start selling "day passes" for one-off
payments, ideally allowing for cash - pay £20 or so and you can
register a card for a month.

--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger
dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

[Russ Garrett]

On 22 October 2012 15:10, tgreer <ukt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> SO can we not do that with non members in the space... have to be
> trusted/approved by a member who takes responsibility for them?

There is no technical reason why we can't do that; we can just change
the rules. There are several administrative/cultural reasons which
would need solving, some of which I enumerated in my first post to
this thread.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Charles Yarnold]

On 22 October 2012 15:15, Sam Kelly <s...@eithin.co.uk> wrote:

On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 3:12 PM, Charles Yarnold
<charles...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 22 October 2012 14:58, Jonty Wareing <jo...@jonty.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "tgreer" <ukt...@gmail.com>
>>
>> > This is news. Last I heard, non members could register a card for tool
>> > use...
>>
>> That has never been the plan, cards will be deactivated when members
>> stop paying, using the same system as door access.
>
>
> Ah, then I may have been confusing people when talking about the system. I
> had thought this was an option but that it had not been concluded.
>
> That said I'm in favour of making the space much more members only to
> encourage those who use the space for free to become members without needing
> prodding from others to do so. This would help with that.

Another option is for us to start selling "day passes" for one-off
payments, ideally allowing for cash - pay £20 or so and you can
register a card for a month.

While this sounds like a good idea, part of me feels this would lead to people treating the space even more like a service than a community. It takes more commitment to start direct debit and become a member for an on going time, rather than becoming a "fair weather" user of the space. My thinking is "Got some lasercutting to do? Become a member for a month to use the hackspace lasercutter on the cheap, then never come back" We seem to get allot of these people when its time for university projects to be handed in. I think we should be encouraging members to take ownership of the space rather then how to squeeze more people through the door... </2p>

[Russ Garrett]

On 22 October 2012 15:21, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:
> While this sounds like a good idea, part of me feels this would lead to
> people treating the space even more like a service than a community. It
> takes more commitment to start direct debit and become a member for an on
> going time, rather than becoming a "fair weather" user of the space. My
> thinking is "Got some lasercutting to do? Become a member for a month to use
> the hackspace lasercutter on the cheap, then never come back" We seem to get
> allot of these people when its time for university projects to be handed in.
> I think we should be encouraging members to take ownership of the space
> rather then how to squeeze more people through the door... </2p>

Yep, I totally agree with this. Part of me thinks it's probably better
for the space if we discourage these kinds of uses.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[tom]

its ok non-members! You could borrow my card. We have a well equipped wipe-clean biolab and hefty hammers should you damage tools whilst using it

> SO can we not do that with non members in the space... have to be 
> trusted/approved by a member who takes responsibility for them? 

I see we cant do that for various reasons but what about the day pass/tool credits thing? ok so it doesnt help with community stuff but at least we can get moneyz to repair things that are broken

[Ximin Luo]

On 22/10/12 06:27, Philip McGaw wrote:
> What is the official line on non-members using facilities?
>
> I have been a paying member (£5 pcm) since almost the start of London Hackspace, yet have physically been in the space only a handful of times.
>
> Every so often I see on this list mention of people who have been in the space on occasion, or are attached to other groups (occupy etc) who use resources (including space) but are not members.
>
> What are the arrangements regarding these groups are they reciprocal agreements, or loan of space ie occupy members. And what are the arrangements regarding accessing the space as a "trial" or on an "ad hoc" basis.
>
> Philip McGaw

The space has always been open. In the past year I only remember a few
(less than 5) threads bitching about occupy-affiliated non-members. If
you have problems with individuals, take it up with the individuals.
Trying to imply this is an "occupy" problem is as fallacious as being
racist. There are plenty of occupy-affiliated members that pay much more
than £5 pcm, too.

X

[Mark Steward]

We know *many* threads on the topic that it polarises people, so I'm going to ask that people drop Occupy from the discussion.  It's so last year anyway.

Memberships are individual and not transferable, and we currently have no organisations subscribed.  If a bunch of non-members turned up throughout the week for biohacking, it'd only be fair to ask them to join up too.

Mark

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 00:21, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We know *many* threads on the topic that it polarises people, so I'm going
> to ask that people drop Occupy from the discussion. It's so last year
> anyway.

What "polarised" people is that there were people who were associated
with Occupy abusing the facilities provided by the space.

As far as I know, there have been no violations of the rules by people
who've been associated with Occupy in several months. I think Ximin is
right in this case; blaming Occupy for recent problems caused by
non-members is simply incorrect.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Peter Corlett]

On 22 Oct 2012, at 14:27, Philip McGaw wrote:
[...]

> Every so often I see on this list mention of people who have been in the space on occasion, or are attached to other groups (occupy etc) who use resources (including space) but are not members.

It may well be instructive to be not an arse about it, and just ask these people why they're not members. This would be a good way to find out what's missing from the space that's preventing people from signing up.

(Me, I've not become a member yet because Hoxton is poorly-connected to public transport and an utter arse to get to from west London. I've been along twice on a Tuesday, and once for a weekend course, and had a few unprintable thoughts about Boris Johnson, Bob Crow, and bus replacement services every time. So I've been watching discussions about the hackspace move to somewhere less remote with much interest.)

[Önder Vincent Koç]

This whole thing is another topic of discussion, the group has grown VASTLY in number of members and non-members using the group and the online community.

One of my suggestions was to branch or to start and interly new hackspace on the west-side of London. Im moving from Hackney to Eailing and its going to become growingly difficult.

All these suggestions and group structure and ways to span with sub-groups etc needs to be actioned and put forward as a final note, we will be having these discussions for longer and longer and i doubt much will change.

As members with the board could we not using a voting structure perhaps through the wiki to finalise some of these points of discussion that have grown vastly into a never ending story in my inbox?

We could use the RFID to sign out of the space and from that we can using the webcams and some scripting workout the ammount of members to non?

This is a cooperative community but if im providing a small donation which is benfiting me and others why cant we all chip in, some people i understand why there not... But some are quite simple freeloading!

Im sorry to come off a wee bit too strong...

Vincent

--

Many Thanks,

Vincent

Loophole Studios

+44(0)2070431814 | +44(0)7708215323

IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. They are intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof.

[phil jones]

What's the typical profile of a non-member? Are non-members coming
individually, as friends of members, or do they mainly come in as part
of subsidiary groups or for specific courses? (Music Hackspace,
Biohacking etc?)

Does a clamp-down on non-members restrict the ability to run these
subsidiary events? Conversely, should people organizing them take more
responsibility for non members? Charge them a participation fee if
they aren't a hackspace member etc?

phil

On 23 October 2012 01:10, Önder Vincent Koç

[Martin (Crypt)]

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I think we need to consider how this changes the role of the
hackspace. If we make membership a requirement for entering/using
tools it will mean that we are no longer an open community for the
encoragement of hacking and making stuff, and we turn ourselves into a
members only DIY club. If people want that, then thats fine, but we
have to say we're no longer the open community that I think we should be.

As far as tools go, I think inplementing card access on certain
dangerous machines or on the laser cutter thats easily broken is good,
but I don't think we should be locking away tools or machines that
don't specifically need it for safety and/or high repair costs without
the agreememnt of the whole community to change the whole nature of
the space.

I know this sounds a bit dramatic, but I don't want to see us go down
the road of excluding anyone just for the sake of it.

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[Clare Greenhalgh]

I also live in West London, in Hammersmith, and don't actually think Hoxton is bad to get to at all! Just one change from the underground to overground and you are there at Hoxton station. It is not difficult to get to, and if we decide to move the Space because it is not easy for one person to get to it seems a little extreme. Of course it would be great if it could be within a 10 minute walk for everyone, door to door, but that is just not possible!

I agree that it is the expensive and more precious machinery that needs to be protected with RFID rather than the basic tools. Those tools should only be accessible to members (as then at least you are registered on the system, paying a monthly amount etc).

It should be somewhere that is a base for people to come and talk about making new things, but surely we want them all to join as members so they can share their ideas with people in the future too... I would not want to stop people coming in as guests, but I think changing them into members is better still!

I think we want to be an open space where people can come and share ideas, and then the ideas spread, change, evolve and start new ones. Without letting people visit then it will really change the Space, and not for the better...

Just my ideas...

Noko

--

[Tim Reynolds]

On 2012-10-23 08:35, Martin (Crypt) wrote:
> I know this sounds a bit dramatic, but I don't want to see us go down
> the road of excluding anyone just for the sake of it.

They're not paying for the upkeep or the expansion of the space, that
is hardly "for the sake of it" :)

[Adrian Godwin]

I know we had a problem with a number of visitors in the past who many
felt were overstaying their welcome (I'm not just talking about
Occupy). But is this a major problem at the moment ? What's prompting
these questions ?

-adrian

[Tim Reynolds]

I don't think there is anything going on at the moment with feral
groups of non-members abusing the space, but to say that any discussion
about implementing restrictions is just for the sake of it is a little
disingenuous.

[tom]

> If we make membership a requirement for entering/using 
> tools it will mean that we are no longer an open community for the 
> encoragement of hacking and making stuff, and we turn ourselves into a 
> members only DIY club.  

Which is a little like whinging at starbucks for asking you to buy coffee before using their toilet and pissing all over the floor..

People will still be able to hack and make stuff, its just that the *really cool toys* should be an incentive to financially support us

[Benjamin Blundell]

I am perfectly fine with a members only DIY Club. We have a social
night for non members and we (I hope) make it perfectly clear that we
need members to contribute to succeed and that includes a rather
modest sum for upkeep. Again, we've had this argument before about
money. Its less about the money and more about the commitment one
makes to the space. Money is more than just its ability to buy stuff.

Can we please stop pussyfooting around the issue, insist on membership
and have done with this argument please? £5 a month is nothing and if
you can't set that up, frankly, you are probably the kind of person
who cant look after the space and the machines we own.

B

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 11:39, Benjamin Blundell <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can we please stop pussyfooting around the issue, insist on membership
> and have done with this argument please?

Insist on membership for using the expensive tools, or for using the
space at all? If the latter, how do you suggest dealing with the
points which I mentioned in my first post to this thread?

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Benjamin Blundell]

The latter, and this was more of a response to Tim as I felt his
response was more to do with the ethics of the space rather than
outliers (I suspect) that you have suggested. The solution? Not sure
of the best but -

restrict entry to social nights only. I.e, thats when we have the door open.

Apply the card system to the tools (which we've already discussed). At
least it keeps the area open.

Do away with the tin system and insist on recording payments which can
then be cross checked with the door system.

These seem a little harsh at first glance but actually, I think it
protects us a little and newcomers will feel more welcome if they are
restricted to certain times when they are more likely to get a nice
response, rather than, OFFS not the doorbell again.

B

[David Murphy]

I thought it was already members only outside of tuesday.
As long as members can still bring a guest along now and then I see no problem with it being members only except for tuesday.

having a non members day is a very very good thing we should keep doing and I'm of the opinion that on tuesday nights apart from stuff that needs training for safty sake it should be as open as possible.

[Charles Yarnold]

Let me take you on a little journey back in time.

*cue wobbly fade change*

We are back in February 2010, not too far from where we were, in a leaky draughty loft above a archery range. Its small but humble with a die hard community that still come to Tuesday meetings even though its minus degrees inside the space.

Members and non members gather at Tuesday open evenings to chat and make together. Everyone knows each other (some only be face as we are terrible at names...). At other times a keyholder has to open the space and let everyone know that its open for them to come down. People come to make and hack or chat with other members. People become members to help keep the space going and improve, without them it wouldn't exist. All we ask is you give around £25-30, and if your just wanting to show support or are a starving hacker, only £5

*Jump cut, crash zoom*

We are back in the current space, its huge compared to before. Heating isn't a problem and the mini heaters have been thrown in the skip long before. The space is now occupied almost 24/7. We have gone from a single mostly not working 3d printer to several... mostly not working 3d printers! (sorry, couldn't help that one ;) and from a few power tools to a whole unit filled with them.

But, while Tuesdays are still a day where people come to the space for the first time and get shown around, the welcomes seem to be happening every day now. And with more frequency those ringing the bell seem to expect to "go do some work" or just walk past as if there is nothing odd about not being a member. Those members still at the space now seem to be opening the door without comment as when you have done it 5 or 6 times that day to this response it gets tiring. 

[10:59:02] <roberthl> hmm

[10:59:32] <roberthl> "what's your name? stephen. are you a member? yeah something wrong with oyster need to check bank"

[11:00:04] <roberthl> *rushes past*

The recommended cost of membership has fallen to only £20 but the absolute minimum cost of £5 is purported by some to be the actual cost for all. If you pay at all.

People who are members start to think, what do I actually get from being a member. I can always ring the bell and get in, there is a good chance someone will be here. I've got storage, but who checks that? Anyone wanting to deal with me keeping stuff here needs to wait weeks till anything happens to it. There are lots of other people who seem to be here all the time never using their card, if I show anything with the cams I'm called out as 'policing', if I talk to them it does nothing. But hang on this can't be right, surely something can be done to fix this?

*camera pulls to narrator*

There is, we need to have a space that is "non-profit, community-run hacker space in central London. We provide a space where people who make things can come to share tools and knowledge." And to me a open door policy that once served the community well is now a detriment. Before we could welcome new people and help them become members, now no one knows who they are anymore. Is it bad to ask those not willing to become members to come at a specific time to experience the space and allow members to have the full benefit of what we have built the rest of the week? I don't think so.

*pan left to show a projection screen*

So, I think we should:

• Make it clear that Tuesday nights are the time to come if your a non member.
• Make the space membership only the rest of the week (allowing non members to enter as a guest with a member)
• Put a nice clear sign on the door showing the "opening times" as well on the wiki front page
• Start giving back ownership to the membership, not anyone willing to entrench them self
• Raise the £5 to £10 - We are by far the most used space in the UK with the lowest minimum fee. 

Thats my thoughts...

*fade to black*

(this is a comment on the situation in general rather than a reply to a specific person in the thread...)

[Benjamin Blundell]

+1 to that. You have said it more succinctly than I could.

B

[Clare Greenhalgh]

Ditto Oni!

[Russ Garrett]

I agree with you, I think making the space more members-only is
something we probably need to do. However:

On 23 October 2012 11:53, Benjamin Blundell <onid...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do away with the tin system and insist on recording payments which can
> then be cross checked with the door system.

The main reason we don't currently take cash subscriptions is twofold:

Firstly it's a massive hassle. I do not have time to handle cash (and
I am very grateful to Robert who handles our cash for me most of the
time). I don't want people shoving money into my hand at midnight on a
Tuesday when I'm a bit drunk, because I'll forget about it. Our bank
charges us a significant percentage to deposit cash.

Secondly, I think paying by standing order is a bit more of a positive
action. It's quite easy to pay for one month by cash and then bugger
off, and I think that's what we're trying to avoid.

So, if we do take membership subscriptions in cash, we need to
disincentivise it somehow. Alternatively, we could add additional
payment methods (probably PayPal) and still say no cash.

I am also concerned about how going members-only will make the space
appear to genuine visitors from far away. When I'm in another city I
always make a point of visiting the local hackerspace and, without
fail, they have been friendly, welcoming places.

Whenever I have a couple of hours spare in Berlin I tend to head to
c-base because I can sit down on a sofa with a club mate and do a bit
of work in a friendly environment. It would massively suck if we
weren't able to return that kind of favour.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Tim Reynolds]

A thousand times over, especially;

>> Start giving back ownership to the membership, not anyone willing to
>> entrench them self

and

>> I've got storage, but who checks that? Anyone wanting to deal with
>> me keeping stuff here needs to wait weeks till anything >> happens to
>> it. There are lots of other people who seem to be here all the time
>> never using their card, if I show anything >> with the cams I'm called
>> out as 'policing', if I talk to them it does nothing.

I'm hoping this doesn't result in a 'fight the man' subset of members
that will open the door regardless, and the accompanying cries of
fascist and nazi.

[SamLR]

On 23 October 2012 12:02, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

• Make it clear that Tuesday nights are the time to come if your a non member.
• Make the space membership only the rest of the week (allowing non members to enter as a guest with a member)
• Put a nice clear sign on the door showing the "opening times" as well on the wiki front page
• Start giving back ownership to the membership, not anyone willing to entrench them self
• Raise the £5 to £10 - We are by far the most used space in the UK with the lowest minimum fee. 

Firstly: sol you should think about directing ;)

Secondly: I agree with it all apart from raising the price. I currently pay £5 a month as do (I assume) many people. I can't speak for anyone else but I pay £5 because I very rarely use the space (I think about twice a month) and when I do it's often as somewhere social to work that's not my office, the main reason I pay is to help support the space and show my support. If I find myself using the space more or with more cash I will increase my subscription but as it stands I don't think I'm able to.  

[Akki]

On Tuesday, 23 October 2012 12:21:57 UTC+1, Russ Garrett wrote:

I am also concerned about how going members-only will make the space
appear to genuine visitors from far away. When I'm in another city I
always make a point of visiting the local hackerspace and, without
fail, they have been friendly, welcoming places.

Maybe in some hackerspaces but it seems more common in the US to have the whole daypass system (and charge MUCH higher subs) with no allowances for outsiders from other spaces to visit.

It's a nicety not a necessity to allow foreign visitors outside of non-members hours, IMO. And what you were talking about was more of a quick holiday tour. We are not a tourist attraction, are we?

Quite a lot of time on the weekends tends to be given over to giving tours. There's less of a payback for people who won't/can't join because the nebulous "it's nice" concept. It's not adding to the community really either. It's just nice and we can leave it at that. It should be optional for the hackspace as it is a hassle.

~Akki

[David Murphy]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:

I am also concerned about how going members-only will make the space
appear to genuine visitors from far away. When I'm in another city I
always make a point of visiting the local hackerspace and, without
fail, they have been friendly, welcoming places.

Whenever I have a couple of hours spare in Berlin I tend to head to
c-base because I can sit down on a sofa with a club mate and do a bit
of work in a friendly environment. It would massively suck if we
weren't able to return that kind of favour.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

 

 

could always make an exception for visitors who contact the mailing list.

 

"Hey I'll be in london on thursday, mind if I drop in to the london hackspace?" sort of thing.

[Benjamin Blundell]

I have also been to C-Base and we found it friendly, but also, its
more of a bar if we are being honest ;)

I have this exact problem with noisebridge, which I'd like to visit.
In this case, its a one off and I'll be emailing them asking if its
cool to visit on X-Date. This may not co-incide with their social
night and it would suck if they said piss off. However, as an out of
town visitor, Im sure they'd be cool. I have no intention of using the
facilities, just to look around and maybe go to a workshop, but its a
one off. In these cases, its all down to courtesy. They are completely
within their rights to tell me to piss off, which might happen. It
would suck but I would hope the communication between us would mean
that it would all go well.

I think, we at LHS would be cool if with someone turning up after
announcing and we should greet at the door but also ask why a person
is there and if someone arrives often, they need to be challenged.

I think it really comes to communication and geeks are not very good
at that. It means saying that if its out of visiting hours, ASK!

B

[Mark Steward]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:

I am also concerned about how going members-only will make the space
appear to genuine visitors from far away. When I'm in another city I
always make a point of visiting the local hackerspace and, without
fail, they have been friendly, welcoming places.

Whenever I have a couple of hours spare in Berlin I tend to head to
c-base because I can sit down on a sofa with a club mate and do a bit
of work in a friendly environment. It would massively suck if we
weren't able to return that kind of favour.

I still think temporary access should be enshrined in the door access system.  That said, if we can reduce the number of regular non-members (or at least the impression of them) there ought to be a higher quota of good will for out-of-towners who do knock on the door.

As an aside, while I visited the bar, I haven't been downstairs at c-base, and couldn't find out how to get down there.

Mark

[Tim Reynolds]

Russ, if this does go ahead could we implement it as a fuzzy rule as we
have done for some things in the past? I know thats asking for trouble,
but it would be cool if we could implement a bit of common sense in this
department. Someone coming from Switzerland can be given a little more
leniency than someone who needs to charge their phone and Facebook for a
while.

[Charles Yarnold]

Humm, I think I need to form a stronger case around this. I think showing the number of people paying the minimum correlated to amount of door access would help show if its a real or perceived issue.

Hacman have a interesting policy of allowing a lower membership fee of £10 after approval from their board. I'm not sure that would work for us, but I think it would be a good thing to find a way to tell people that £5 is the right amount to pay for certain circumstances (yours included)

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 12:36, Akki <beloved...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe in some hackerspaces but it seems more common in the US to have the
> whole daypass system (and charge MUCH higher subs) with no allowances for
> outsiders from other spaces to visit.

I've visited a number of hackerspaces in the US (including some of the
more commercial spaces) and they are all very welcoming. I'm not sure
which places you're referring to. The majority of spaces at least let
you drop in and use the internet for free, whilst charging for tool
usage.

Being able to drop into a hackerspace anywhere in the world and be
welcomed is a big part of the hackerspace ecosystem. It's not just a
nicety.

Part of this problem is due to us not having enough space to
accommodate members, let alone non-members. I think in the future the
best bet is to have a part of the space where non-members are allowed.
But it would suck to completely shut out visitors until then.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 12:43, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As an aside, while I visited the bar, I haven't been downstairs at c-base,
> and couldn't find out how to get down there.

You can't go down there without being shown around by a member. Again,
I think that's probably the best direction for us to go in, when we
have enough space.

I'm happy with saying that visitors are only allowed on open evenings
unless they've asked first.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[tgreer]

So non members can come in escorted by a member. they sign in and if they've been in in the last month they dont get access... or something like that. Nice and simple way of dealing with it?

[Dave Ingram]

On 23/10/12 12:43, Mark Steward wrote:

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Russ Garrett <ru...@garrett.co.uk> wrote:

I am also concerned about how going members-only will make the space
appear to genuine visitors from far away. When I'm in another city I
always make a point of visiting the local hackerspace and, without
fail, they have been friendly, welcoming places.

Whenever I have a couple of hours spare in Berlin I tend to head to
c-base because I can sit down on a sofa with a club mate and do a bit
of work in a friendly environment. It would massively suck if we
weren't able to return that kind of favour.

I still think temporary access should be enshrined in the door access system.  That said, if we can reduce the number of regular non-members (or at least the impression of them) there ought to be a higher quota of good will for out-of-towners who do knock on the door.

+1 agreed.

Thinking about tool access control... what about (when the vending machine is up and running) selling short-duration access passes for the expensive tools? Keyed to work one specific tool for a specific amount of time? We would then at least know that misuse could be due to someone using one of those passes rather than a member.

On a vaguely-related note, I've been scouring eBay for plastic card printers for a short while, but keep getting sniped at the last minute from the low-price auctions, and can't afford the larger ones. Would this be of interest to the space? It's possible to get some blank RFID cards for ~50p each on eBay (or so I've seen).

These are a few design ideas I threw together over the weekend: http://imgur.com/a/hsrTh


D

[Nigel Worsley]

Russ Garrett wrote:
> I'm happy with saying that visitors are only allowed on open evenings
> unless they've asked first.

Sounds reasonable to me, I think the space has been way too tolerant of use and
abuse by non members.

Perhaps put a small whiteboard buy the door to write the names of those visitors
so that they don't have to explain who they are all over again on arrival?

Nigle

[Geekinesis]

I also thought membership was required for use of the space apart from the tuesday social. 

I dont think that someone coming from far away for a visit should have to  become a member just to do that. It should also be ok for people to pay a visit or help a member make something or occasionally do a course etc.

But someone who isnt a member and uses the space regularly to make things or use the materials, tools and facilities (computers, electricity, kitchen etc) is a different matter. They are just taking advantage of an open system rather than being a part of it.

I agree that there should be some incentive to be a member otherwise some people just wont bother. Member only machines and member only computer access is a good idea

I bother to be a member because I value the hackspace and appreciate the efforts that have gone into setting it up and maintaining it. I pay what I can, and will pay more if my income improves.

But then I am also one of the boring people who still payed my fare on the bendy busses even though many of the passengers were riding for free... 

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 13:06, tgreer <ukt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So non members can come in escorted by a member. they sign in and if they've
> been in in the last month they dont get access... or something like that.
> Nice and simple way of dealing with it?

It would be impossible to enforce the use of a sign-in system.

I think a good first step would be simply to change the wording of the
web site and change what we tell people, and see if that helps. We've
still realistically got to encourage members to enforce the rules
themselves.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[tgreer]

Ok thats fair enough, not quite sure how it'd be impossible to enforce it. They sign in. If they don't they're not given access and asked to leave. simple?

[Tim Reynolds]

I think the number of members comfortable acting as door staff can be counted on one hand. 

[Charles Yarnold]

For those of you who have visited other hackspaces round the world, what did you do before turning up?

I'm wondering if making a big thing on the front of the wiki about opening hours with a note to "out of towners" to say, email the list to let us know your coming, that way we can accommodate them and show them around when they get there would help.

[Jim MacArthur]

When I visited Noisebridge I went on their IRC channel a few days ago
and asked if it'd be OK to come along on Sunday, and since they agreed
I did so. I have a key, but it didn't feel right just letting myself
in.

Jim

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 13:16, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For those of you who have visited other hackspaces round the world, what did
> you do before turning up?

I almost always jump on IRC unless it's very obvious that the doors
are open. I think IRC is probably the best place to check if someone's
around, etc.

We should definitely have a "Visiting" page on the wiki.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Tim Storey]

I agree with the member only access other than Tuesdays and also the flexibility as regards out of town visitors.
Tool usage however should be a perk of membership, I think it leads right back to the Hackspace as a cheap service problem.

\t

[Benjamin Blundell]

So much of this really comes down to one thing, and one thing only.

Communication.

People who answer the door need to ask and query anyone who comes in.
Period. No ifs, no buts. It's simply manners to say something like
"Hello. My name is X. Are you a visitor... can I show you around".
Common courtesy and then make the call as to whether or not someone is
genuine or a piss taker. In the latter case, that *could* lead to
conflict and indeed, I have seen that (Charles I know, certainly has)
but so what? That is an unavoidable consequence of people taking and
not giving.

All these other suggestions are typical of the space at the moment -
using tech for overly complicated solutions that dont get made and
dont solve things (I'm sorry Charles, I know you are working on the
tool system - that is an exception).

This needs to be a united front however, by the members. Its not easy
though, I grant that. But solving such problems never are.

I am part of that problem. Only a couple of times have I done this. I
intend to do it more as we all should.

B

[Adrian Godwin]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 1:07 PM, Dave Ingram <da...@dmi.me.uk> wrote:
>
> Thinking about tool access control... what about (when the vending machine
> is up and running) selling short-duration access passes for the expensive
> tools? Keyed to work one specific tool for a specific amount of time? We
> would then at least know that misuse could be due to someone using one of
> those passes rather than a member.
>

Charging for tool access is a problem when the tools are not formally
maintained - they generally only work new or when someone cares enough
to fix them. The laser cutter is an exception .. possibly because it
has a well established charging mechanism and is actively maintained.
In fact, the system fell apart somewhat when it wasn't so actively
maintained for a short while.

I think this shows that it can work, but needs a strict regime. It's
obviously appropriate for high-maintenance or expensive tools. The
effort might not feel worthwhile for some levels of tool (eg portable
drills, dremels, some manual tools).

I don't have a solution for this but think it's important to keep in
mind if there's a general policy of paying for tool usage. If you pay
explicitly for something, you have a greater expectation that it will
be working.

-adrian

[Kimball Johnson]

> I don't have a solution for this but think it's important to keep in
> mind if there's a general policy of paying for tool usage. If you pay
> explicitly for something, you have a greater expectation that it will
> be working.

The vending machine can refuse to vend if the machine is know to be
broken, and we can also have a refund mechanism if the card is
returned unused within say 15 minutes?

Also, cards would want a deposit on them anyway, so having a refund
mechanism would be required for that.

Kimball

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 13:49, Kimball Johnson <kim...@bowerham.net> wrote:
> The vending machine can refuse to vend if the machine is know to be
> broken, and we can also have a refund mechanism if the card is
> returned unused within say 15 minutes?
>
> Also, cards would want a deposit on them anyway, so having a refund
> mechanism would be required for that.

I think this complex technical solution is getting a bit off-topic for
this thread :).

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Charles Yarnold]

On 23 October 2012 13:44, Adrian Godwin <artg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Charging for tool access is a problem when the tools are not formally

maintained - they generally only work new or when someone cares enough
to fix them. The laser cutter is an exception .. possibly because it
has a well established charging mechanism and is actively maintained.
In fact, the system fell apart somewhat when it wasn't so actively
maintained for a short while.

I think this shows that it can work, but needs a strict regime. It's
obviously appropriate for high-maintenance or expensive tools. The
effort might not feel worthwhile for some levels of tool (eg portable
drills, dremels, some manual tools).

I don't have a solution for this but think it's important to keep in
mind if there's a general policy of paying for tool usage. If you pay
explicitly for something, you have a greater expectation that it will
be working.

I'm with Adrian on this one, I think charging for tool time is getting too much into using the space as a service. If the lasercutter wasn't such a costly item to run and maintain, with easily budgeable and chargeable costs I wouldn't be for charging a usage fee for it.

I'd much rather being a member gets you the run of the space, with some consumables being charged for where actually needed.

[SamLR]

On 23 October 2012 13:55, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm with Adrian on this one, I think charging for tool time is getting too much into using the space as a service. If the lasercutter wasn't such a costly item to run and maintain, with easily budgeable and chargeable costs I wouldn't be for charging a usage fee for it.

I'd much rather being a member gets you the run of the space, with some consumables being charged for where actually needed.

Charging for tool access is also pointless as the majority of tools for which this is planned require training.

Would I be right in saying that (against the majority of past experience) we've agreed that:

The space should be members only with the exceptions of:

- Tuesdays

- Other days by prior arrangement on the mailing list

Separate to this we all agree that the card-access system will bring world peace but isn't ready yet.

We need some analysis of the data to look at whether the £5 minimum is worth keeping or if it should be increased.

Is there much more that really needs to be said?

S

[SamLR]

PS Assuming the above is correct this information should be posted on the announce list and the wiki/main-page/front door should be updated

S

[tgreer]

On Tuesday, 23 October 2012 14:19:56 UTC+1, SamLR wrote:

On 23 October 2012 13:55, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm with Adrian on this one, I think charging for tool time is getting too much into using the space as a service. If the lasercutter wasn't such a costly item to run and maintain, with easily budgeable and chargeable costs I wouldn't be for charging a usage fee for it.

I'd much rather being a member gets you the run of the space, with some consumables being charged for where actually needed.

Charging for tool access is also pointless as the majority of tools for which this is planned require training.

Would I be right in saying that (against the majority of past experience) we've agreed that:

The space should be members only with the exceptions of:

- Tuesdays

- Other days by prior arrangement on the mailing list

I would also say if a member wishes to bring a guest... 

[Charles Yarnold]

On 23 October 2012 14:21, Jake Howe <ho...@dr.com> wrote:

Policing minimum membership is not a big issue because people are great at actually looking at the space, what they use and paying an amount that reflects that.

 

I am happy to answer any specific questions people have even if I get one of the other board members to come talk about it. I think I explained everything the best I can. Just because it works for us, doesn't mean it will work for you. Happy to help out in anyway though.

Thanks Jake.

I know we have spoke about it, but how do you actually deal with people paying a low amount, its it a community policed thing?

How does bringing a guest work outside of your open evenings and workshops?

Sol

[Charles Yarnold]

I think that something like this would benefit from our first user wide use of the oneClickOrgs system (outside of elections) to agree on this.

If that's the case we would need to work on the wording for such a vote.

I also have a feeling that we will be gaining other voices to this discussion soon so should give it some time for more people to put across their feelings before a vote is had.

[Jake Howe]

Well, thats just it, dealing with people paying a low amount is almost a non issue. People pay what they think the space is worth. So far that has rung true.

We also make a point of making it clear that people will be politely asked to pay more to cover their use of the space when they become members, again, not something I have personally come across. I would basically say, don't spend your time worrying about that issue until it is an actual issue.

As for guests, it is mentioned on the wiki rules. It comes under 'Members are also expected to cover the Hackspace usage of their guests.'

If someone is bringing several guests, sometimes quite often, as long as their membership covers what they are taking from the space, its no problem.

Some people (normally partners) might move onto two memberships if the guest is using the the space a lot.

Jake

[Tim Reynolds]

I don't think asking the mailing list for each and every accompanied
guest outside of Tuesday is sustainable. A guest is going to be shown
around and kept on a leash by whoever is with them.

On 23/10/2012 14:22, tgreer wrote:
>
>
> On Tuesday, 23 October 2012 14:19:56 UTC+1, SamLR wrote:
>
> On 23 October 2012 13:55, Charles Yarnold <charles...@gmail.com

[Charles Yarnold]

On 23 October 2012 14:38, Jake Howe <ho...@dr.com> wrote:

Well, thats just it, dealing with people paying a low amount is almost a non issue. People pay what they think the space is worth. So far that has rung true.

We also make a point of making it clear that people will be politely asked to pay more to cover their use of the space when they become members, again, not something I have personally come across. I would basically say, don't spend your time worrying about that issue until it is an actual issue.

As for guests, it is mentioned on the wiki rules. It comes under 'Members are also expected to cover the Hackspace usage of their guests.'

If someone is bringing several guests, sometimes quite often, as long as their membership covers what they are taking from the space, its no problem.

Some people (normally partners) might move onto two memberships if the guest is using the the space a lot.

Interesting.

It seems that in our case, were we to adopt this, it would have to be run by the trustees as we are the only ones able to see how much someone is paying. As I can't see how you could make a judgement on if someone is paying enough by their usage alone, you would need to see both their usage and payment amount?

i.e. I would see someone coming say >4 times a week and only paying a fiver as being too low, but as a member I would only know that person comes >4 times a week, not how much they pay.

[Adrian Godwin]

I suspect Nottingham are in the phase that LHS saw for the first six
months after moving, where almost all members were very committed.
That's lasted a lot longer in Nottingham because we had a phase where
we grew very fast and attracted a lot of publicity.

We have a much higher number of people who are less engaged as a
community, both in people who pay but don't attend and people who
attend but don't pay.

-adrian

[Paul Dart]

You then have to be careful the you don't fall down the trap of saying £x/month is an acceptable value.
As another member of Hackspace it might be read as that's a price point and one might be over paying. Should that person then reduce their payments inline with this?

That was worded badly but I can't be bothered to retype it on my phone. You get the idea.

I feel there are two (interlinked but) separate points here.

1) Members vs non-member access times

2) Minimum memberships

Cheers,
Paul

[Sam Kelly]

My thoughts from reading the discussion so far:

* Membership encouraged, keep current £5 minimum.
* Non-members encouraged on Tuesdays, new or very occasional visitors
encouraged at all times.
* Access control should be members-only, but only on the
damaging/damageable tools, and there should be no fee for anything
other than a) Hackspace membership and b) consumables.
* We should make it easier for people to make one-off payments while
they're in the space, whilst not ending up with huge piles of cash
incomings and almost no sensible cash outgoings.

Some further thoughts on implementation:

* A sign on the front door. "Welcome to London Hackspace. Touch in
with your card on the reader below. If you're not a member, our
regular open-access & social nights are on Tuesdays. If it isn't
Tuesday, please ring the bell, and if a member is free they may be
able to give you a tour. [#include contact-details]"
* A PayPal (or similar - I'm not up to date with micropayment options)
tipjar thing on Lovelace, with a sign explaining how & why to use it,
and why it's better than cash. (Am I correct in thinking that the
paypal fees are actually equivalent to less than the hassle involved
in taking-and-using cash?) Relatedly - would there be any extra fees
involved in accepting NFC payments?

I agree now with Charles's (IIRC) points about wanting to encourage
ongoing support rather than one-off payments. OTOH, there's a certain
percentage of any large organisation that will join in like that (I
think studies of things like Wikipedia have shown that it's relatively
invariant, but I might be wrong) and I'm worried that the laudable
goal of maximising our ongoing support might mission-creep into
maximising that percentage by discouraging the other people from using
the space.

For the one-off-payment model, I'm thinking as much about people who
want to top up their regular subscription for costs they've incurred
recently (heavy bandwidth/tea/power-tool usage, for instance) as for
people who can only pay that way.

As far as the threat model of people-not-paying goes, there are a few
scenarios that occur to me.

* "It doesn't apply to me."
* "It's too much hassle for such a small amount of money."
* "I'm in a hurry, I'll do it next time." [followed by forgetting,
almost inevitably]

Do you think it's worth addressing these individually?

--
Sam Kelly, http://www.eithin.co.uk/

That's it. We're not messing around anymore, we're buying a bigger
dictionary. - Tibor Fischer, The Thought Gang.

[Dave Ingram]

On 23/10/12 15:15, Sam Kelly wrote:
> Some further thoughts on implementation:
>
> * A sign on the front door. "Welcome to London Hackspace. Touch in
> with your card on the reader below. If you're not a member, our
> regular open-access & social nights are on Tuesdays. If it isn't
> Tuesday, please ring the bell, and if a member is free they may be
> able to give you a tour. [#include contact-details]"

I'd modify this slightly: "... If it isn't Tuesday, please ring the bell
and introduce yourself, and if a member is free..." � just to make it
clearer that they're a visitor and encourage them to speak up


D

[Jake Howe]

Well, the board/trustees of Nottingham Hackspace, while really involved with the space can not observe them all the time. Again, only we can see how much specific members pay.

It is not the job of the board to 'police' members and the space.

Sure, some members might not be paying enough, other members might be paying more than they need. That is the whole point of 'pay what you like' it is up to the member to decide the worth, not the board.

Essentially that rule exists to stop people taking the michael when it comes to membership. So, if/when we/you come across that issue it will be fairly obvious that is the case. Kind of a way of dealing with the extreme cases.

Re people lowering their membership, this is why we like the 'pay what you like' scheme, rather than pushing a generic average, or the recommended amount, people choose what they think the hackspace is worth.

If people want to lower their memberships, that is their choice.

I disagree with what Adrian says, there are more and more people wanting to get involved with the community of the nottingham hackspace. It's one of the biggest selling points. Also, people are constantly meeting new and old members and making new friendships. All I would say is that being less open has had no negative effect on the community, if people are interested in the space, they will find a wednesday they are free to come along and see what we are about. People sometimes arrange to meet potential members outside of hackspace hours to show them around.

Again, it is all about empowering other members.

[James Hayward]

Hi, James here, from Nottingham.

We've never had to ask someone to raise their minimum, but that is because it is pay what YOU think the space is worth, not what another member or trustee thinks it is worth, or thinks you are using.

We always said that if someone was abusing the space by paying almost nothing and there every day we'd intervene, but I actually think the member is worth more to the space than the subscription.

I always used to worry about the exceptions, the people that would take the piss, but really it's more important to make the space sustainable for our members, they're the ones paying after all!

Just my 2p, I'm not a LHS member, so ignore at will!

J

[Charles Yarnold]

I think this should be kept simple, no one comes to the space without finding out about at least where it is. We can list info about being a guest boldly on the wiki, then all an opening hours sign needs to read is:

Opening times,
Members 24/7
Non-members Tuesdays 7-Late

On Oct 23, 2012 3:23 PM, "Dave Ingram" <da...@dmi.me.uk> wrote:

On 23/10/12 15:15, Sam Kelly wrote:

Some further thoughts on implementation:

* A sign on the front door. "Welcome to London Hackspace. Touch in
with your card on the reader below.  If you're not a member, our
regular open-access & social nights are on Tuesdays. If it isn't
Tuesday, please ring the bell, and if a member is free they may be
able to give you a tour. [#include contact-details]"

I'd modify this slightly: "... If it isn't Tuesday, please ring the bell and introduce yourself, and if a member is free..." — just to make it clearer that they're a visitor and encourage them to speak up


D

[Charles Yarnold]

We have a great micropayment system for members to supplement their subs, the donations box.

I do think that micropayments and day payments from the space being a community rather than a metered service.

[930913]

I found out about the LHS one Tuesday afternoon, and decided to visit that evening. I had a short tour about the main features of the space, but at that time I was theorising how to make a robot, and didn't get much help. On IRC people told me that Tuesday was just the official public day, and really I could visit any time. Over the next month or so, I visited a few times; when convenient meetings nearby permitted. Various people helped me, I saw other people's cool stuff, used some wires and other components and managed to build a basic robot (why it's now in pieces is another story ;) ) I threw in more than enough coins to cover the cost of these components.  Now that I knew a fair bit about the space, I figured that it was near enough to my uni to borrisbike to between lectures and ultimately decided to get membership. I got my bank to resend my PIN :p logged in and learnt how to set up a direct debit.

Were I not able to visit on a whim, I doubt I'd be a member now. The open door policy let me see the space in action, rather than the Tuesday show and allowed me to decide whether I wanted to pay or not. To remove it would reduce new people who would follow a similar path.

I think somebody mentioned recently having a guest sticker. Upon opening the door, one should ask the person if they are a member (how to establish that they have "lost their card" oe. is a different matter) and if they are a visitor, make them write their name on one of the prominent "Visitor" stickers (kept by the door, with a black marker on a string) and make them wear it.

If you're in the space and you see a visitor/guest, you can say hello, show what you're doing, ask what they're interested in etc.

If this is the second time you've seen them, be friendly and suggest that they might consider becoming a member.

Each time you see them, put more pressure onto them to become a member. Peer pressure should do its work, or guilt should set in.

If there is a visitor is regularly using the space, a post on the mailing list should note this, and someone should take the person to the side and explain how the space needs membership fees to function and so on and so forth.

If the person annoys enough people, banning them from the space shouldn't be out of order. Perhaps a pin board of photos of people who you shouldn't let in? (If it ever gets to that.)

[Kimball Johnson]

> If this is the second time you've seen them, be friendly and suggest that
> they might consider becoming a member.

There are over 500 members, someone could come over 1000 times and
still only be the 'second' time

Kimball

[930913]

Theoretically, yes. In practice there are a fair number of people in the space who will be there regularly, and chances are, a person would be seen twice with only a few visits, especially if they visit regular, such as the same day the next week. Any miscreant would have to try hard to avoid being spotted.

[Adrian Godwin]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 3:24 PM, Jake Howe <ho...@dr.com> wrote:
>
> I disagree with what Adrian says, there are more and more people wanting to
> get involved with the community of the nottingham hackspace. It's one of the
> biggest selling points. Also, people are constantly meeting new and old
> members and making new friendships. All I would say is that being less open
> has had no negative effect on the community, if people are interested in the
> space, they will find a wednesday they are free to come along and see what
> we are about. People sometimes arrange to meet potential members outside of
> hackspace hours to show them around.
>

You've maybe missed my point. I think it was like that here to for a
while, but the rising numbers happened very fast and I think something
of that community spirit was lost. If your growth pattern allowed you
to keep it, then that's a very fine thing (and I urge you to watch
carefully and make sure it doesn't get lost).

It may well be possible to be open, community-centred, and still grow
fast. I hope so.

-adrian

[Charles Yarnold]

Undoubtedly being members only with exceptions will cause some people not to join.

I'm ok with that, our goal should be quality not quantity, a great community doesn't come from having the largest numbers.

[Tim Hardy]

Loved your earlier post Sol, and I agree - there was a very different atmosphere back in the days of the archery range and I'd definitely be in favour of making Tuesday nights special again by encouraging non members to come only on those nights (with the exceptions others suggested above). 

I very rarely get to visit these days but the last time I did I did notice with dismay things others have complained about on this list (notably piles of clutter, tools and equipment not put away, people who were using it as an office and not interacting with anyone else). But it was still fantastic to be in space and to see how it has grown.  

Of course, the real question is - what is the core problem here? 

Is this really about non-members using the space or how much people are paying or is it actually that people are unhappy about a change in the atmosphere now that the group has grown beyond a certain size and many people don't know one another (along with all the selfish and antisocial behaviour this brings)?

As a practical proposal, why not introduce a rule that everyone coming in has to check in via RFID even if the door is open or if they are following someone else in.

* If they are a guest, they can be issued with guest RFID access then and there and this should be recorded, tied to an email address and automatically revoked at the end of the day. Repeat guests who don't join can be gently nudged towards full membership

* if they are a member whose RFID access has been revoked (as mine has because I wasn't paying a subscription for a while) or who hasn't got round to getting it yet, then they need to get access enabled then and there

* [optionally] tie this in to a check-in system tied to the members profiles on the wiki so anyone can see at a glance who is in the space and how often they come by

We all think the RFID access is cool - if you were a guest who got given RFID access for one evening, wouldn't that give you an incentive to sign up and get full membership?

But if the problem is actually about the atmosphere and behaviour there may also be other solutions rather than focussing on the membership issue (although my gut instinct is that creating more a members club atmosphere would help improve the problems people are describing)

[George Buckenham]

I have no specific opinions on restricting access, but want to share a few bits of personal experience.

I'm a member and pay £10 a month. I used to pay £40 a month, but had then less money, and wasn't coming to the space enough to justify it. At the moment I rarely get to the space, but am happy to donate because I'm really glad the space exists. The last time I was at the space was because I needed somewhere to meet a couple of friends and make MegaGIRP dancemats. (aka, sticking letters on). There ended up being 4 of us there -- one friend who had arrived that afternoon from Scotland and was testing his game on The Beast, one friend who had met up because he was lending me his laptop, who ended up fixing the sticky joystick on The Beast, and one friend who was just helping me make the dancemats. We were kind of making the dancemats in the main lobby, because there was nowhere better to work, which was a bit inconvenient when people walked by. I was the only member amongst us, and it would have been a shame not to be able to meet at the space.

I also visited SF earlier this year, and ended up going to Noisebridge around 4 times (I was there for a games conference, so other people I knew from the UK were in town -- I ended up bumping into them a fair few times at Noisebridge. I also met the guys making Cobalt through hanging out there). I wasn't a member there, but I was sure to slip some cash into the donation box there, and generally felt welcome in the larger community of Hackspaces.

--G

[Martin (Crypt)]

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Before we start changing all the rules for nothing, we should really
make sure we have a problem. Current access rules plus new access
rules for tools are sensible, but I see no real pressing argument for
making the space members only outside of tuesday nights. True I
haven't been around much in the last month, but before that I didn't
see any problem at all with non-members. Admitedly I didn't check
everyones membership when they were in the space, but is that really
necissary?

Is there a specific problem with non-members in the space now? what is
this problem? and does the necesiatate the creation of a new rule?

I really hate creating rules based on what people 'might' do if
they're malicious/idiots (with the exception of obvious dangerous
tools), or rule creating based on hyperthetical situations that
haven't occured at all.

I think if we do go around creating new rules it has to be for a
sepecific reason, and not just irrational fear of what might happen

>> As a practical proposal, why not introduce a rule that *everyone
>> *coming in has to check in via RFID *even if the door is open* or

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[Martin Dittus]

On 23 Oct 2012, at 17:40, Tim Hardy wrote:

> Loved your earlier post Sol, and I agree - there was a very different atmosphere back in the days of the archery range

Just to state the obvious (and I'm sure everyone will agree) -- Those days are long gone, and I don't think it's worth attempting to recreate them verbatim. So many things changed (people, experiences, space, expectations, …) that we're now effectively a different organisation.

It would be nice if we can keep as much of the current spirit and social support structure as we grow, but I suspect at a certain member size many "small-group" social mechanisms inevitably stop working.

> Of course, the real question is - what is the core problem here?

In order to answer this question we started capturing people's complaints 1-2 weeks ago, see here:
http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/User:Martind/Broken

This is just a first step, the intention is to at some point review these and collate them, and then to start preparing more specific problem sets.

m.

[phil jones]

I still haven't heard an answer to my earlier question. What about
people who come to an event like Music Hackspace? Or Biohacking? Or
want to come and play games at one of the Saturday sessions or do the
circuit bending course this Sunday?

If we restrict visitors to Tuesday nights, what happens to all these
special interest groups? Do they force their regular attendees to
become members (even if those attendees have no other interaction with
the space)? Or do they have to charge attendees a day-pass? Or can
they sign in 10 visitors as free guests? Or do we not have groups like
this?

phil

[Russ Garrett]

On 23 October 2012 19:16, phil jones <inte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I still haven't heard an answer to my earlier question. What about
> people who come to an event like Music Hackspace? Or Biohacking? Or
> want to come and play games at one of the Saturday sessions or do the
> circuit bending course this Sunday?

I think it's always been implied that these scheduled events will be
fine to let non-members in.

--
Russ Garrett
ru...@garrett.co.uk

[Nin Lil'izi]

I think it may be fair to surmise. And I hope I'm not stepping over the line in saying so.
But what gripes people more about members of the occupy community. Is not so much what they're doing. But how they go about it.
ie, using the space fine. It's great seeing awesome things being built. But the self-righteous attitude of self-entitlement many of their adhearants push on everybody they interact with just gets frustrating very fast. It's in violation of the general concept of don't be a dick.

I'm posting this as honest feedback from somebody at the space who has multiple bad experiences with occupiees while trying to work on stuff. No z0mg occupism. Saying it like it is. In the hope its heard, understood and learned from :)

Regards,
Nin lil'izi

GPG Fingerprint: C510 909B 811E D6F5 0DFF 5D91 CF03 8FEA FD69 4622

On 23/10/12 00:37, Russ Garrett wrote:

On 23 October 2012 00:21, Mark Steward <marks...@gmail.com> wrote:

We know *many* threads on the topic that it polarises people, so I'm going
to ask that people drop Occupy from the discussion.  It's so last year
anyway.

What "polarised" people is that there were people who were associated
with Occupy abusing the facilities provided by the space.

As far as I know, there have been no violations of the rules by people
who've been associated with Occupy in several months. I think Ximin is
right in this case; blaming Occupy for recent problems caused by
non-members is simply incorrect.

[Geekinesis]

I dont think its a problem with specific non members behaving maliciously?

Its more to do with the perceived unfairness of a non member being able to use all the facilities of the space without restriction, regularly - essentially supported by the paying members. 

Would this then discourage some potential members from paying... They might think: "why pay if I dont have to? or if I know other people aren't paying? "

Most of us are attracted to the idea of being part of a community supported by its members. The suggestion is that not everyone thinks this way. Some people just want to take advantage and use free space and tools.

There might only be a very small percentage of non members using the space regularly which is probably not affecting anyone very much and not worth the time and effort to do anything about. Or maybe the percentage is high and the hackspace is losing out on some much needed income which could pay for space or machines?

[Charles Yarnold]

On 23 October 2012 23:54, Geekinesis <geeki...@googlemail.com> wrote:

There might only be a very small percentage of non members using the space regularly which is probably not affecting anyone very much and not worth the time and effort to do anything about. Or maybe the percentage is high and the hackspace is losing out on some much needed income which could pay for space or machines?

I don't think its even a cash flow thing, its a perceived value issue. 

[cepm...@yahoo.co.uk]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2012 12:43:24 +0100, Tim Reynolds <t...@christwithfries.net>
wrote:

> someone who needs to charge their phone and Facebook for a while.

Does anyone NEED to facebook that badly?

Phil
--
" et cognoscetis veritatem et veritas liberabit vos. "

[Martin (Crypt)]

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This is my point. I feel a move like this would significantly reduce
the openess of our community, and would be a very dangerous move.
There were some issues with some people from occupy, but I think,
having gone through that once, we're in a better position to deal with
the situation if it arrises again. I tried at the time to reduce the
impact, and I've certainly learnt lessons since then.

As far as non members using the space goes, has anyone actually looked
at the number of non member using stuff, when was the last issue of a
non-member actually breaking anything?

If this is only a percieved 'well i might be paying and someone else
might not be' issue, I feel strongly that we shouldn't make this move
and close up our community that bit more.

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[David Murphy]

On Tue, Oct 23, 2012 at 11:54 PM, Geekinesis <geeki...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I dont think its a problem with specific non members behaving maliciously?

Its more to do with the perceived unfairness of a non member being able to use all the facilities of the space without restriction, regularly - essentially supported by the paying members. 

Would this then discourage some potential members from paying... They might think: "why pay if I dont have to? or if I know other people aren't paying? "

Most of us are attracted to the idea of being part of a community supported by its members. The suggestion is that not everyone thinks this way. Some people just want to take advantage and use free space and tools.

this just strikes me as almost worthy of politicians. There's a vague possible group of others, people not like us, scroungers who we think must be **taking advantage of us** somehow. thus we must become more closed and hostile to outsiders, increase the cost and challenege people to prove that they're not part of this vague group of scroungers.
 
since I joined I haven't encountered any problems with non-members. I've never experienced a non member being dickish to me or damaging my enjoyment of the space and I've become acutely aware that there's a lot of members who pay their fees but rarely ever use the space who effectively subsidise most of the more active members.

Yes people can scrounge but it doesn't seem to be causing much of an actual problem.

the problems seem to exist more in the minds of a small number of members than in the actual space. a sort of barely contained terror that someone somewhere might be taking advantage of them in some way so they must do something, anything even if it won't make any actual difference.

Lots of people contribute, if anything we probably have more of a problem with people attempting to contribute inneptly like sharpening tools poorly or leaving crap they think will be useful but actually isn't than we do with people not contributing at all.

The space isn't poverty stricken, it's only really on tuesday socials that there's not enough desk space and we'd probably achieve more by having more proper training on the use and maintainance of the tools but that can't be acieved by sticking a gadget on the wall and requires the valuable  time of the small subset of people who are competent to maintain the tools.

[Charles Yarnold]

I don't think anyone has said this will fix these problems, its not going to cause world peace in the space over night.

Lets tackle the argument that making the space members only apart from Tuesdays and events will make us closed. Aside from the fact we have people from other hackspaces with first hand accounts that this isn't true, if we look at when someone could turn up as a non member to the space:

On average over a fought-night they can attend the space at 7/7:30 for a meeting or workshop 4 out of 5 days a week. And once a month on Saturdays. This is also only with reoccurring events, extra events like the circuit bending workshop aren't included in that. Correct me if  I'm wrong but one one has suggested excluding non members from those events.

Getting non-members to come to these events ensures that they are greeted be someone, shown the space and introduced to what we do and how we do it.

At the moment this doesn't happen during the day and on evenings with no event as when you get your 6th or 7th non-member turn up that you answer the door for, all you want to do is get on with *actually using the space* (this is not an exaggeration and I'm sure other people can attest to this)

[Tim Hardy]

Good point - this is a question of perception. You do not perceive there to be a problem but others clearly do. The fact that we are having this conversation suggests that there is a perception that something is wrong so we need to find out how to change that perception (either by challenging it or by tackling the cause). 

As I said, we need to ask what the real perceived problem is and as Martin pointed out capturing complaints on the wiki is a the place to start:

http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/User:Martind/Broken

An implicit part of my proposal that everyone checks in on entry is that it allows us to measure whether some of these perceived problems are real or not.

We don't need to implement that particular means of measuring but we do need to measure otherwise we are, as you point out, in the domain of prejudice and grubby politics.

[Akki]

too long; didn't read

I think free market says if you want something to be valuable, you limit it.

http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/The_Tuesday_Pattern sums up that every day will be bad for someone so just pick Tuesday and be done with it. If people value the space, they will figure out a way of making space in their life to come visit on the Tuesday night.

+1 to non-members on Tuesdays only.

~Akki

On Monday, 22 October 2012 14:28:14 UTC+1, Skippy wrote:

What is the official line on non-members using facilities?

I have been a paying member (£5 pcm) since almost the start of London Hackspace, yet have physically been in the space only a handful of times.

Every so often I see on this list mention of people who have been in the space on occasion, or are attached to other groups (occupy etc) who use resources (including space) but are not members.

What are the arrangements regarding these groups are they reciprocal agreements, or loan of space ie occupy members. And what are the arrangements regarding accessing the space as a "trial" or on an "ad hoc" basis.

Philip McGaw
--

Philip McGaw

07969 502 077 | Phi...@JustVigilantes.co.uk | http://philipmcgaw.com | http://JustVigilantes.co.uk
Twitter: http://twitter.com/JustVigilantes | LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/philipmcgaw

[Tim Hardy]

:) Not a believer in letting the magic of the free market determine our lives but - 

+1 to non-members on Tuesdays only (and to specific, pre-arranged workshops)