Hello from America! I have questions no how ya'll run stuff

[David French]

Hello, 

My name is David Aslan French. I visited the LH one night as part of a student hackathon. I was impressed with how ya'll ran things. I have anarchist/socialist leanings and have been playing around with ideas of how people self organize in democratic, decentralized, or non-coercive ways. 

My art collective is starting to get pretty big. We just had our first group show. I'm not sure how we should handle governance and stuff now that money is becoming a factor. 

I was struck by a particular moment when I was being lead on a tour of the space. Someone asked the member who was showing us around what people did about other people stealing stuff from their plastic bins. He pointed out that it was expected that members were simply good people who didn't need locks to keep them out. If someone wanted to break a lock, they hypothetically could if they really wanted to. But it was sort of expected that people wouldn't do that because that wasn't what the community was about. I think that's one of the first things that flicked a light on in my head about trust. 

I'm curious how you guys have dealt with stuff, particularly money and leadership. 

[Peter Turpin]

I was a member of the LHS for 7 years. I have not been involved with the running of it during that time, but have made observations that are coming in useful as I plan my own community workshop venture.

If your collective is forming as a legal entity, you'll primarily want to take advice from others within the USA as you'll have to abide by US and state laws. The LHS for instance is a non-profit company limited by guarantee, part of which means having a board of directors. (The LHS directors are known as "The Trustees", but this can give a false impression and is largely a artefact from when the founders toyed with the idea of registering as a charity rather than as a ltd company. Those who run a charity specifically are usually known as trustees.) The type of entity you form as, even if it's only for legal convenience, will shape the centre of your management. The LHS is obligated, for example, to have an annual general meeting (AGM), is subject to legal challenges from within, and has yearly elections for directorship, or when required to maintain a minimum number of directors.

A number of these items are defined on a case by case basis for companies within their articles of association, others are demanded by UK law. This will likely be different within the USA, and there may also be additional forms of legal entity available to you.

This is largely separate from day-to-day management of the physical space and it's membership. Organisationally, the LHS is a self-described "self-organising anarchy" and is heavily dependant on volunteer labour and an assumption of good-will, competence, and availability. From my own perspective this works fine when you are dealing with a limited and regular membership, but causes trouble as a membership grows larger. I feel this is an example of "Dunbars number" in action, in that anarchy works fine when everyone knows everyone else and are around enough to just pick up on what others are doing. When there's too many people to know personally, or the membership changes too frequently, it becomes impossible to "just know" what everyone else is up to. This number is very broad and somewhat subjective, but is probably somewhere around 200 persons.

At larger populations, people will attempt to form smaller specialist or social groups within the whole. Particularly after the Dunbar threshold, this can cause problems if those representing those groups are dismissed due to the original anarchistic intent rejecting structure. Nature abhors a vacuum, and groups will form regardless to attempt to provide some sort of self-support. When everyone's working toward the same general goals an anarchy works fine. When they're not, it can become argumentative with those who spend a long time building something up having just as much right to act as the one person who decides to tear something down on a whim.

As a general rule, increasingly complex systems require increasing amounts of management to sustain. Starting anarchistic is fine, but as you grow you will likely find your choices are; to adapt to a less anarchistic (more formal) structure, to divide into smaller distinct groups to avoid the critical threshold, or to ignore/suppress discontent and risk eventual collapse from within.

I'm also sorry to shake the idealistic view you seem to have of the LHS as an entirely trustworthy venue, while members boxes have been largely untouched by theft over the years, thefts of cash-box money and equipment have occurred, and with some frequency in recent years. The cash-boxes in particular did involve someone literally breaking them open. Even after I replaced the original box with a heavy-duty steel one, someone instead drilled out the rivets holding the clasp on. While as best I'm aware, there were no more cash-box thefts after the clasp was literally welded on, I think the cash safe was robbed soon after that.
Separately, equipment thefts seem to largely have been down to well-meaning members letting in someone who rang the doorbell but without confirming if they were members or not. Again, a possible Dunbars issue of not being able to know all members. And in this environment it's already normal to see someone carrying a random piece of tech out the door.

Members are advised not to leave valuables in their storage boxes, and as they are intended as ongoing small project storage, the items within are generally only of significant value to the member storing them. Except in some very specific instances, members boxes simply aren't a target, which is likely why theft of their contents hasn't been a significant issue or concern.

As a personal recommendation, please please please have set allocated areas for storage of your members projects and clear lines between projects and usable equipment. Blurring of either leads to a lot of readily avoidable social and material complications. I would also generally avoid accepting loans of equipment unless it's conditions of use are clearly agreed upon up front. There's a lot of complications that material loans can potentially throw up in terms of authorising access, use, maintenance (both authorisation of & cost), general ownership, availability and notice of removal, in addition to general liability and social pressure they can be used to exert.

I hope that's of some small help. Most of the rest of what I've learned tends towards managing a technical environment more than a artistic one. My opinions are my own, and are not meant to represent those of any other LHS member, former or current.

[henry...@ntlworld.com]

As Peter wrote, Dunbar's Number is a problem when the membership gets large.

As an irregular attender at Hackspace, I'm on nodding acquaintance with several people there, but I have no idea of their names or whether they are members.

To offset some of the problems that may cause, I suggest that visible name badges (with a membership number?) be worn by all members at all times within the space.

[Mark Steward]

On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 8:28 PM, 'Peter Turpin' via London Hackspace <london-h...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I was a member of the LHS for 7 years. I have not been involved with the running of it during that time, but have made observations that are coming in useful as I plan my own community workshop venture.

If your collective is forming as a legal entity, you'll primarily want to take advice from others within the USA as you'll have to abide by US and state laws. The LHS for instance is a non-profit company limited by guarantee, part of which means having a board of directors. (The LHS directors are known as "The Trustees", but this can give a false impression and is largely a artefact from when the founders toyed with the idea of registering as a charity rather than as a ltd company. Those who run a charity specifically are usually known as trustees.) The type of entity you form as, even if it's only for legal convenience, will shape the centre of your management. The LHS is obligated, for example, to have an annual general meeting (AGM), is subject to legal challenges from within, and has yearly elections for directorship, or when required to maintain a minimum number of directors.

We aren't obliged to hold AGMs, and I don't know what "legal challenges from within" means. There are good resources for getting 501(c)(3) status in the US, including videos of presentations, but that doesn't need to be done up-front.

What I wouldn't wait on, though, is a code of conduct. We've learnt the hard way that you should bake this in at the start, and make sure it's enforced robustly. It may be a sticking point for certain people on the anarchist spectrum, but it's a great way to identify those who don't play well with others, and a prerequisite for many others to feel safe enough to get involved.

 

A number of these items are defined on a case by case basis for companies within their articles of association, others are demanded by UK law. This will likely be different within the USA, and there may also be additional forms of legal entity available to you.

This is largely separate from day-to-day management of the physical space and it's membership. Organisationally, the LHS is a self-described "self-organising anarchy" and is heavily dependant on volunteer labour and an assumption of good-will, competence, and availability. From my own perspective this works fine when you are dealing with a limited and regular membership, but causes trouble as a membership grows larger. I feel this is an example of "Dunbars number" in action, in that anarchy works fine when everyone knows everyone else and are around enough to just pick up on what others are doing. When there's too many people to know personally, or the membership changes too frequently, it becomes impossible to "just know" what everyone else is up to. This number is very broad and somewhat subjective, but is probably somewhere around 200 persons.

At larger populations, people will attempt to form smaller specialist or social groups within the whole. Particularly after the Dunbar threshold, this can cause problems if those representing those groups are dismissed due to the original anarchistic intent rejecting structure. Nature abhors a vacuum, and groups will form regardless to attempt to provide some sort of self-support. When everyone's working toward the same general goals an anarchy works fine. When they're not, it can become argumentative with those who spend a long time building something up having just as much right to act as the one person who decides to tear something down on a whim.

We don't self-describe as anarchist, although we do take a lot from it and encourage all members to improve the space as they can/need. The most important role of the trustees is to deal with issues that can't be solved without a sense of authority.

A lot's claimed about Dunbar's number, but I'm not convinced it's very significant except in "pure" anarchist groups, or as a workaround for lack of communication. You always get a core of members who reliably do the tidying up and organisational work, and for us this has been less than 100 for a long time despite growth and churn in the overall membership. If the core group feel like they're being taken advantage of, you'll have problems convincing them to visit, but you see this in spaces of all sizes. For the people who don't make themselves part of that core group, communication and awareness are key.

The issues we've suffered from far more than this are behavioural, but we've already discussed this on IRC.

 

As a general rule, increasingly complex systems require increasing amounts of management to sustain. Starting anarchistic is fine, but as you grow you will likely find your choices are; to adapt to a less anarchistic (more formal) structure, to divide into smaller distinct groups to avoid the critical threshold, or to ignore/suppress discontent and risk eventual collapse from within.

I'm also sorry to shake the idealistic view you seem to have of the LHS as an entirely trustworthy venue, while members boxes have been largely untouched by theft over the years, thefts of cash-box money and equipment have occurred, and with some frequency in recent years. The cash-boxes in particular did involve someone literally breaking them open. Even after I replaced the original box with a heavy-duty steel one, someone instead drilled out the rivets holding the clasp on. While as best I'm aware, there were no more cash-box thefts after the clasp was literally welded on, I think the cash safe was robbed soon after that.
Separately, equipment thefts seem to largely have been down to well-meaning members letting in someone who rang the doorbell but without confirming if they were members or not. Again, a possible Dunbars issue of not being able to know all members. And in this environment it's already normal to see someone carrying a random piece of tech out the door.

This is definitely something worth being aware of. The location of your space makes a big difference to the type of passing traffic you see, and a 24-hour space that isn't covered reliably by CCTV overnight or by trustworthy people who are keeping an eye open is a liability. It's hard for us to do, but I would consider setting fixed closing hours if the number of visitors drops too low at certain times. If you have anything valuable or that needs to be kept in shape, monitor it - there's nothing worse than only being able to say that something was broken weeks ago or when nobody was around.

 

Members are advised not to leave valuables in their storage boxes, and as they are intended as ongoing small project storage, the items within are generally only of significant value to the member storing them. Except in some very specific instances, members boxes simply aren't a target, which is likely why theft of their contents hasn't been a significant issue or concern.

As a personal recommendation, please please please have set allocated areas for storage of your members projects and clear lines between projects and usable equipment. Blurring of either leads to a lot of readily avoidable social and material complications. I would also generally avoid accepting loans of equipment unless it's conditions of use are clearly agreed upon up front. There's a lot of complications that material loans can potentially throw up in terms of authorising access, use, maintenance (both authorisation of & cost), general ownership, availability and notice of removal, in addition to general liability and social pressure they can be used to exert.

I hope that's of some small help. Most of the rest of what I've learned tends towards managing a technical environment more than a artistic one. My opinions are my own, and are not meant to represent those of any other LHS member, former or current.

Mark 

[Mark Steward]

Or find some way to identify people who are happy to introduce themselves or be approached while working on other things. In smaller groups this would be communicated by them being outspoken and interacting lots with others, but that doesn't work for everyone.

On a related note, hold events. We've basically stopped doing this, and it sucks.

Mark

[Peter Turpin]

On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 01:03:20 UTC+1, Mark Steward wrote:

We aren't obliged to hold AGMs, and I don't know what "legal challenges from within" means.

Legal challenge probably isn't the correct term, but I meant items like the members being able to call for an EGM or otherwise make demands that directors may not have anticipated.
 

What I wouldn't wait on, though, is a code of conduct. We've learnt the hard way that you should bake this in at the start, and make sure it's enforced robustly. It may be a sticking point for certain people on the anarchist spectrum, but it's a great way to identify those who don't play well with others, and a prerequisite for many others to feel safe enough to get involved.

Very strongly this.
 

We don't self-describe as anarchist, although we do take a lot from it and encourage all members to improve the space as they can/need. The most important role of the trustees is to deal with issues that can't be solved without a sense of authority.

The day to day organisation used to be described on the wiki (I believe) as a self-organising anarchy and a lot of people took that to heart. I've heard it used on Tuesday night tours plenty of times as a general description to visitors of how the place runs.
 

A lot's claimed about Dunbar's number, but I'm not convinced it's very significant except in "pure" anarchist groups, or as a workaround for lack of communication. You always get a core of members who reliably do the tidying up and organisational work, and for us this has been less than 100 for a long time despite growth and churn in the overall membership. If the core group feel like they're being taken advantage of, you'll have problems convincing them to visit, but you see this in spaces of all sizes. For the people who don't make themselves part of that core group, communication and awareness are key.

The issues we've suffered from far more than this are behavioural, but we've already discussed this on IRC.

 

The IRC is a poor example to use after mentioning communication and awareness. Only a few people use it and what discussions happen there aren't usually logged or published. To most members anything that occurs there might as well not have been discussed at all.

But yes, if a few hundred individuals only come in once a month, what are the odds they'll see the same "core" person doing something helpful during that time? It makes those putting in the effort effectively invisible unless they do a disproportionate amount of work that increases their individual exposure.

This is definitely something worth being aware of. The location of your space makes a big difference to the type of passing traffic you see, and a 24-hour space that isn't covered reliably by CCTV overnight or by trustworthy people who are keeping an eye open is a liability. It's hard for us to do, but I would consider setting fixed closing hours if the number of visitors drops too low at certain times. If you have anything valuable or that needs to be kept in shape, monitor it - there's nothing worse than only being able to say that something was broken weeks ago or when nobody was around.

 

The footfall logger at Cramer St was useful in putting actual numbers on attendance from which this could be estimated. But it's harder to implement with multiple entrances.

Setting opening hours and monitoring equipment both require task scheduling, if not actual staffing.

[Peter Turpin]

On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 01:06:20 UTC+1, Mark Steward wrote:

Or find some way to identify people who are happy to introduce themselves or be approached while working on other things. In smaller groups this would be communicated by them being outspoken and interacting lots with others, but that doesn't work for everyone.

As had been said before; badges.
But honestly a nod and a smile while you're using the lasercutter ALWAYS starts a conversation.

On a related note, hold events. We've basically stopped doing this, and it sucks.

 

There was certainly a change in tone regarding events. When I tried to get a regular jumble sale going, there were a few enthusiastic contributors, but not a lot of attendance.

The LHS has become generally antisocial in many ways over the years, and a lot of them are down to the poor state of communications here. I still hold that a monolithic mailing list is not an effective communications tool for a multidisciplinary physical resource servicing a couple of thousand members. Additionally all moderation is reactive with a delay measured in hours, and redactions are always only partial due to the nature of email. Only the public archive is ever altered.

[Mark Steward]

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018, 02:11 'Peter Turpin' via London Hackspace, <london-h...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 4 April 2018 01:03:20 UTC+1, Mark Steward wrote:

The issues we've suffered from far more than this are behavioural, but we've already discussed this on IRC.

 

The IRC is a poor example to use

I mean David came onto IRC earlier and a few of us discussed it then.

Mark

[David Murphy]

Note, we've not actually tried the badge thing and I suspect it wouldn't really work well.  

A few more points I'd add: automate things where possible. Excessive routine workload burns people out so if you can move as much admin into automation as you can. Our excess of programmers may make that more practical for us. 

We only really started having a problem with theft once we became street facing.  People needing to be the kind of people who google "hackspace in london" to find us was a surprisingly strong and effective filter. You still get some assholes but far less. 

We're not really anarchistic.... more leadership minimalist. I hear about some groups in other places where people start complaining about xyz not being properly anarchist... there's not really an aspiration to anarchism for its own sake at the lhs. More that leaving as much responsibility/work as possible with individuals tends to burn out active members less. It's the pragmatically and efficiently lazy option. 

We lost some of the community when we moved to a larger space. I suspect it's less about total member count and more about workspace design. Limited space crowded people together more and got people sitting with strangers more which may have helped. 

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[David French]

Leadership minimal is a nice way of putting it. I just wanted to touch base with you guys and say thank you for contributing your thoughts! Its very interesting hear your process and the things ya'll have discovered along the way.  Sincerely,  David Aslan French Jackalope.tech Design X Code: Pushing the boundaries of design, art, and code. jackalope.tech Find me on Facebook  Let's connect!