Translations of quotes for my next piece

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

coi ro do

For my next composition I will again use some Lojban and the text material this time is quotes from important works throughout history. If you have any thoughts about important works or persons that should be included you are very welcome to suggest them to me, but mostly I just need help with correcting my translations.
I have done five so far, and there will be five more, but I'm throwing them out here and any and all suggestions for edits are much appreciated.

1. Bhagavad-Gita: "Vet att den som genomströmmar hela kroppen är oförstörbar. | Ingen kan förstöra den oförgängliga andesjälen." = (eng)
"Know that the one that runs through the whole body is indestructible. No one can destroy the unfading spirit soul." (Translated via Swedish so the English translation may have strayed a bit from the original)
2. Bibeln: ""And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”
3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart."
4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with those who do good deeds.”
5. The Rights of Man: “Independence is my happiness, and I view things as they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and my religion is to do good.”


1. .i ko djuno lo du'u da poi pa'o lo mulno xadni ku flu'ente ku'o ????? (indestructible) .i no da daspo kakne lo pruxi ruxse'i noi na canci
2. .i gi'e se cesri'a fa lo ninmu poi pu krici lo du'u da poi se cusku lo cevni ku'o ba mulno
3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do
4. .i ja'a bo la .allax. cu kansa lo prenu poi xamgu gasnu
5. .i lo ka zifre cu me lo ka gleki ku pe mi .ijebo mi zgana da tai da secau lo nu mi frati fi lo stuzi je lo prenu .i lo mi gugde cu munje .ijebo lo mi lijda cu lo ka xamgu gasnu | (I don't really understand tai...)

di'ai
mi'e la .natnainiel.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson <eriknatanae...@gmail.com>:

1. Bhagavad-Gita: "Vet att den som genomströmmar hela kroppen är oförstörbar. | Ingen kan förstöra den oförgängliga andesjälen." = (eng)
"Know that the one that runs through the whole body is indestructible. No one can destroy the unfading spirit soul." (Translated via Swedish so the English translation may have strayed a bit from the original)

I don't know where one should stop in imitating the language but at least some approximation of the word order:

avināśi tu tad viddhi

yena sarvam idaṁ tatam

vināśam avyayasyāsya

na kaścit kartum arhati

Strong however that (know it!)

by which the body is spread

Descruction of the strong

no one to do is able.

i jdari ku'i fa sei ko djuno

lo kuspe be ro pagbu be lo xadni

i lo ka daspo lo jdari zo'u

no da lo ka zukte cu kakne

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson <eriknatanae...@gmail.com>:

4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with those who do good deeds.”

wa-inna l-laha lamaʿa l-muḥ'sinīna

"And indeed, Allah surely with good-doers."

Given that Lojban can elide selbri we get an even more doubtful approximation:

ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte be lo zabna

[guskant]

2015-11-14 13:54 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna:

>

> 2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

>>

>> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with

>> those who do good deeds.”

>

>

> wa-inna l-laha lamaʿa l-muḥ'sinīna

>

> "And indeed, Allah surely with good-doers."

>

> Given that Lojban can elide selbri we get an even more doubtful

> approximation:

>

> ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte be lo zabna

>

This is a typical {malxelfanva} containing two problems.

1. That part of the original arabic text is in accusative case, and I interpret it as an expression of the circumstantial accusative. When translating it into Lojban, we could:

1-1. translate the whole statement including the previous part of the text, or,

1-2. supplement the part with a selbri so that the readers find that the part represents the circumstances.

2. the form "I JA fragment" is not only officially ungrammatical but also anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation. {i ji'a (sai)} would be acceptable translation for "wa-inna", though it is not the best.

2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with those

> who do good deeds.”

> 

> 4. .i ja'a bo la .allax. cu kansa lo prenu poi xamgu gasnu

For this specific part of the text, I agree to choose the method 1-2, and use {kansa} as the supplementary selbri. However, 

1. if you say {.i ja'a bo}, you should mention the previous part of the text because {I BO} is a connection of two sentences, though I prefer omitting {bo} and move {ja'a} into the selbri, {ja'a kansa}; 

2. the double "l" is not permitted in Lojban, {la .alax.}, {la .alylax.}, {la .al.lax.} etc. are acceptable.

2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

> 3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart."

> 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do

What is the original text? If it is an English translation of "既来之则安之 jì lái zhī zé ān zhī", you cite a very bad translation. I would translate the original text into Lojban as follows:

(.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti

where the experimental cmavo {ko'oi} of UI is intended to span over the sentence connective {i na ja}.

mu'o mi'e la guskant

[Pierre Abbat]

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 05:15:12 Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:
> coi ro do
>
> For my next composition I will again use some Lojban and the text material
> this time is quotes from important works throughout history. If you have
> any thoughts about important works or persons that should be included you
> are very welcome to suggest them to me, but mostly I just need help with
> correcting my translations.
> I have done five so far, and there will be five more, but I'm throwing them
> out here and any and all suggestions for edits are much appreciated.
>
> 1. Bhagavad-Gita: "Vet att den som genomströmmar hela kroppen är
> oförstörbar. | Ingen kan förstöra den oförgängliga andesjälen." = (eng)
> "Know that the one that runs through the whole body is indestructible. No
> one can destroy the unfading spirit soul." (Translated via Swedish so the
> English translation may have strayed a bit from the original)
> 2. Bibeln: ""And blessed is she who believed that there would be a
> fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”
> 3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart."
> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with those
> who do good deeds.”
> 5. The Rights of Man: “Independence is my happiness, and I view things as
> they are, without regard to place or person; my country is the world, and
> my religion is to do good.”

Could you cite chapter and verse for the Bible and Gita as you did for the
Qur'an?

> 1. .i ko djuno lo du'u da poi pa'o lo mulno xadni ku flu'ente ku'o ?????
> (indestructible) .i no da daspo kakne lo pruxi ruxse'i noi na canci

I don't know the Gita, so I won't comment.

> 2. .i gi'e se cesri'a fa lo ninmu poi pu krici lo du'u da poi se cusku lo
> cevni ku'o ba mulno

* I wouldn't begin a sentence with "ije" ("gi'e" connects two selbri) to
translate "and" unless the "and" is there specifically as a logical
conjunction.
* Is this "bless" "barukah/eulogētē/barika/benedicta" or
"ashrey/makaria/ṫovayah/beata"? I'd put "zandapma" for the former and some
lujvo of "gleki" for the latter.
* "se cesri'a fa" is the same as "cesri'a", unless you also fill in the x1 of
"cesri'a".
* "she" should be "ko'e/fo'a/ri/ra" or the like. I'd need the context to figure
out which.
* I forget the word for "fulfill", but I think it's something else.
* "Lord" should be "la .turn." or "la .iaves.", depending on which it is in
the original. If this is NT, the Aramaic makes the distinction but the Greek
doesn't.

> 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do
> 4. .i ja'a bo la .allax. cu kansa lo prenu poi xamgu gasnu

* There are no double consonants in Lojban. Arabic has three sounds where
Lojban has two, and this one is /h/, which is <'> in Lojban. Back before
dotside was accepted, I made up ".ala'um." as a transliteration of "Allah"
(the -u is nominative case, the -m or -n (I didn't remember which Arabic has)
is dropped in the construct state) as an example of a word containing "la"
which could not fall apart. But it should really be "la cevni" or "le cevni".

Pierre
--
Don't buy a French car in Holland. It may be a citroen.

[Gleki Arxokuna]

2015-11-15 0:21 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:

2015-11-14 13:54 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna:

>

> 2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

>>

>> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with

>> those who do good deeds.”

>

>

> wa-inna l-laha lamaʿa l-muḥ'sinīna

>

> "And indeed, Allah surely with good-doers."

>

> Given that Lojban can elide selbri we get an even more doubtful

> approximation:

>

> ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte be lo zabna

>

This is a typical {malxelfanva} containing two problems.

1. That part of the original arabic text is in accusative case, and I interpret it as an expression of the circumstantial accusative.

Given that accusative doesn't exist in Lojban ...

 

When translating it into Lojban, we could:

1-1. translate the whole statement including the previous part of the text, or,

1-2. supplement the part with a selbri so that the readers find that the part represents the circumstances.

2. the form "I JA fragment" is not only officially ungrammatical

I used the official YACC parser  for that fragment. The only complaint from the parser is the cmevla {alax} which is now acceptable due to officializing of dotside.

Other than that that fragment is grammatical.

but also anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation.

You may add {co'e} as the selbri. Why should we add any selbri that don't exist in the original?

Of course, we are translating the meaning so there is some distance between retaining the original syntactic tree and making it sound in a supposedly Simple Lojban.

 

{i ji'a (sai)} would be acceptable translation for "wa-inna", though it is not the best.

2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with those

> who do good deeds.”

> 

> 4. .i ja'a bo la .allax. cu kansa lo prenu poi xamgu gasnu

For this specific part of the text, I agree to choose the method 1-2, and use {kansa} as the supplementary selbri. However, 

1. if you say {.i ja'a bo}, you should mention the previous part of the text because {I BO} is a connection of two sentences, though I prefer omitting {bo} and move {ja'a} into the selbri, {ja'a kansa}; 

2. the double "l" is not permitted in Lojban, {la .alax.}, {la .alylax.}, {la .al.lax.} etc. are acceptable.

2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

> 3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart."

> 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do

What is the original text? If it is an English translation of "既来之则安之 jì lái zhī zé ān zhī", you cite a very bad translation. I would translate the original text into Lojban as follows:

(.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti

where the experimental cmavo {ko'oi} of UI is intended to span over the sentence connective {i na ja}.

mu'o mi'e la guskant

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[guskant]

Le dimanche 15 novembre 2015 06:32:35 UTC, la gleki a écrit :

2015-11-15 0:21 GMT+03:00 guskant <gusni...@gmail.com>:

2015-11-14 13:54 GMT+00:00 Gleki Arxokuna:

>

> 2015-11-14 16:15 GMT+03:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

>>

>> 4. Koranen: The Quran 29:69 (Surah al-Ankabut) “Verily! Allah is with

>> those who do good deeds.”

>

>

> wa-inna l-laha lamaʿa l-muḥ'sinīna

>

> "And indeed, Allah surely with good-doers."

>

> Given that Lojban can elide selbri we get an even more doubtful

> approximation:

>

> ije je'u la alax ba'e bu'u lo za'u zukte be lo zabna

>

This is a typical {malxelfanva} containing two problems.

1. That part of the original arabic text is in accusative case, and I interpret it as an expression of the circumstantial accusative.

Given that accusative doesn't exist in Lojban ...

 

Therefore you should think of interpreting the meaning in order to translate.

 

When translating it into Lojban, we could:

1-1. translate the whole statement including the previous part of the text, or,

1-2. supplement the part with a selbri so that the readers find that the part represents the circumstances.

2. the form "I JA fragment" is not only officially ungrammatical

I used the official YACC parser  for that fragment. The only complaint from the parser is the cmevla {alax} which is now acceptable due to officializing of dotside.

Other than that that fragment is grammatical.

OK, I see what you did. The official YACC permits {I JA fragment} only at the very beginning of the whole text, while it does not permit {text I JA fragment}. It is a bizarre property of the official parser that I was not aware of. I should correct my statement: "this is officially grammatical, but anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation."

 

but also anti-logical from a point of view of logical operation.

You may add {co'e} as the selbri. Why should we add any selbri that don't exist in the original?

Then you must say {co'e}. I have already written the reason for adding a selbri in 1-2.

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

Aha, I thought for some reason that you couldn't just leave out the x1 without it becoming another kind of bridi, but I see I must have misunderstood something.

* "she" should be "ko'e/fo'a/ri/ra" or the like. I'd need the context to figure
out which.
* I forget the word for "fulfill", but I think it's something else.
* "Lord" should be "la .turn." or "la .iaves.", depending on which it is in
the original. If this is NT, the Aramaic makes the distinction but the Greek
doesn't.

The Bible quote is from Luke 1:45.

Luke 1:40-45English Standard Version (ESV)

⁴⁰ and she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. ⁴¹ And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, ⁴² and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! ⁴³ And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me? ⁴⁴ For behold, when the sound of your greeting came to my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. ⁴⁵ And blessed is she who believed that there would be^[a] a fulfillment of what was spoken to her from the Lord.”

 

> 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do
> 4. .i ja'a bo la .allax. cu kansa lo prenu poi xamgu gasnu

* There are no double consonants in Lojban. Arabic has three sounds where
Lojban has two, and this one is /h/, which is <'> in Lojban. Back before
dotside was accepted, I made up ".ala'um." as a transliteration of "Allah"
(the -u is nominative case, the -m or -n (I didn't remember which Arabic has)
is dropped in the construct state) as an example of a word containing "la"
which could not fall apart. But it should really be "la cevni" or "le cevni".

Ahh, right. But if I translate Allah as la cevni , shouldn't I then also translate Lord as la cevni? But this is perhaps more of a teological question than a linguistic one. Though Allah actually means "god" right? And Yahweh is more of a nickname, or a name.
 
co'o mi'e la natnainiel

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

On Saturday, November 14, 2015 at 10:21:50 PM UTC+1, guskant wrote:

2015-11-14 13:15 GMT+00:00 Erik Natanael Gustafsson:

> 3. Konfucius: "Wherever you go, go with all your heart."

> 3. .i ko klama ma kau ka'ai lo mulno cnize'i po'e do

What is the original text? If it is an English translation of "既来之则安之 jì lái zhī zé ān zhī", you cite a very bad translation. I would translate the original text into Lojban as follows:

(.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti

where the experimental cmavo {ko'oi} of UI is intended to span over the sentence connective {i na ja}.

Okay, I unfortunately don't know any Chinese so I cannot comment on the accuracy of the translation. I can't wrap my head around your Lojban translation either though, specifically the "na ja ko'oi" part and what happens to the x1 of both selbri, that is who does the going and being at peace? Could you give me an explanation or an English translation?

[guskant]

In the original context, x1 of {klama} and {panpi} are people from the enemy nation. When the statement is used as an aphorism, x1 may be the speaker or the listener, spoken with hope, suggestion, or understanding on a fact, depending on the context. 

The original context is as follows.

King Ji of State Lu planned to attack State Zhuan Yu.

The ministers Ran You and Ji Lu came to consult Confucius, and said that they didn't want but the king wanted to attack Zhuan Yu. Confucius said the ministers must make efforts to execute their own missions; if they could not execute, they should resign. The ministers said that Zhuan Yu was a strong state and very close to one of the towns of State Lu; if they were not going to attack Zhuan Yu soon, it would bring trouble to State Lu in the future. Confucius said that the king would hate that the ministers would try to change the king's plan by creating a plausible reason. Confucius suggested to the ministers as follows:

"[...] If people are equal in economy, they don't feel poverty. If they are friendly to each other, they don't feel depopulation. If they are stable, they don't feel danger of the state. Therefore, if the distant people don't obey your state, politely invite them to your state. having them come, that is making them peaceful. You are currently ministers of the king; the distant people don't obey, and you cannot even invite them; the state people are split, you cannot save them, and you are even trying to move weapons in the state. I am afraid that the sorrow of King Ji might be not in Zhuan Yu but in his own state."

The part "having them come, that is making them peaceful" corresponds indeed to the part 

(.i) ba'o klama ti .i na ja ko'oi panpi ti .

If I translate the part word by word, the Lojban translation will be:

jì

[ba'o]

lái

[gau klama ti]

zhī

[fa ra]

zé

[i na ja]

ān

[gau panpi]

zhī

[fa ra] .

However, when the previous part is not translated, {ra} is meaningless. In aphoristic use, x1 of the two selbri could vary according to the context, and it is better omitting it. Thinking of x1 and x2 of {panpi} being reciprocal, I made x2 of {panpi} explicit. As a result, the apparent form of the text became similar to the original text. {ko'oi} is not necessary in the original context, but may work better in aphoristic use.

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

Thanks, that is much more elegant!

co'o mi'e la natnainiel

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

Okay, I think I get it. Thanks for the detailed explanation!

co'o mi'e la natnainiel