Text for a piece of music

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

coi ro do

I'm working on a text for a piece of music and since I don't feel confident in my knowledge of Lojban grammar yet I thought I'd ask for your input before setting it to music. I first wrote it in Swedish and then translated it to Lojban (with some minor differencies), but there was one word that I couldn't translate: bar (the small kind on pines and firs). The text is very metaphorical, should that be explicit somewhere?

loi melbi selpeisku po do cu dasnygau lo ricfoi lo zukte seldjica .i ro lo [bar] cu galgau lo xance mu'i lo terfapro .i ro lo cipni cu jorne fi lo mintu selsa'a
.i loi melbi selpeisku po do cu rivli'a se ka'a lo sasfoi .ijebo mi'o bajra gi'e farlu gi'e sa'irbi'o je refcfa bajra .i mi'o bajra mu'i lo ricfoi .ijebo mi'o bajra mu'i lo ka ro da na'e claxu lo selfi'a

.i mi darsi lo nu pensi lo pa selpeisku noi binxo lo spatrxorki di'o lo mi jamfu .i lo so'o drata cu co'a bajra .ijebo loi ri selpeisku cu binxo lo makpapi ku .e lo centaureia ku seri'a lo nu lo sasfoi cu culno lo xrula kamba'i

.i co'u piro lo munje cu culno lo melbi xrula
.i co'u piro lo munje cu sasfoi lo mlebi selpeisku

Please let me know if anything is wrong or incomprehensible!

ki'e di'ai co'o

[Pierre Abbat]

On Wednesday, July 01, 2015 12:48:42 Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:
> coi ro do
>
> I'm working on a text for a piece of music and since I don't feel confident
> in my knowledge of Lojban grammar yet I thought I'd ask for your input
> before setting it to music. I first wrote it in Swedish and then translated
> it to Lojban (with some minor differencies), but there was one word that I
> couldn't translate: bar (the small kind on pines and firs). The text is
> very metaphorical, should that be explicit somewhere?

Googling "bar pine fir", I find bars made of pine and fir wood and bars of soap
scented with pine and fir EO. What bar are you talking about?

More later. I'm leaving shortly.

Pierre
--
Jews use a lunisolar calendar; Muslims use a solely lunar calendar.

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 1:19:29 AM UTC+2, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Wednesday, July 01, 2015 12:48:42 Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:
> coi ro do
>
> I'm working on a text for a piece of music and since I don't feel confident
> in my knowledge of Lojban grammar yet I thought I'd ask for your input
> before setting it to music. I first wrote it in Swedish and then translated
> it to Lojban (with some minor differencies), but there was one word that I
> couldn't translate: bar (the small kind on pines and firs). The text is
> very metaphorical, should that be explicit somewhere?

Googling "bar pine fir", I find bars made of pine and fir wood and bars of soap
scented with pine and fir EO. What bar are you talking about?

 Maybe I'm wrong about the translation (it's what the dictionary gave me). Anyway, I googled it in Swedish instead and this is what I'm after (the individual "needles", not the piece of the branch):
https://rubinum.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/barr.jpg
http://vetamix.net/sites/default/files/Eddi_20090617_tall_barr_1.jpg
http://www.everydaydesign.se/image/cache/data/Marias%20produkter/Metervara/Full_tyg_Barr-500x500.jpg

[Pierre Abbat]

On Thursday, July 02, 2015 01:27:37 Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:
> Anyway, I googled it in Swedish instead and this is what I'm after (the
> individual "needles", not the piece of the branch):
> https://rubinum.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/barr.jpg
> http://vetamix.net/sites/default/files/Eddi_20090617_tall_barr_1.jpg
> http://www.everydaydesign.se/image/cache/data/Marias%20produkter/Metervara/F
> ull_tyg_Barr-500x500.jpg

That would be "ku'urpezli", which can also refer to other kinds of leaves that
conifers have, or "jespezli".

On Wednesday, July 01, 2015 12:48:42 Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:
> coi ro do
>
> I'm working on a text for a piece of music and since I don't feel confident
> in my knowledge of Lojban grammar yet I thought I'd ask for your input
> before setting it to music. I first wrote it in Swedish and then translated
> it to Lojban (with some minor differencies), but there was one word that I
> couldn't translate: bar (the small kind on pines and firs). The text is
> very metaphorical, should that be explicit somewhere?
>

> loi melbi selpeisku po do cu dasnygau lo ricfoi lo zukte seldjica .i ro lo
> [bar] cu galgau lo xance mu'i lo terfapro .i ro lo cipni cu jorne fi lo
> mintu selsa'a

That means "all the birds join in the same [as something else] song". If you
mean "same [as each other]", you can say "mitsi'u", or reword it, "ro loi
cipni cu mitsi'u lo ka ce'u sanga makau".

> .i loi melbi selpeisku po do cu rivli'a se ka'a lo sasfoi .ijebo mi'o bajra
> gi'e farlu gi'e sa'irbi'o je refcfa bajra .i mi'o bajra mu'i lo ricfoi
> .ijebo mi'o bajra mu'i lo ka ro da na'e claxu lo selfi'a

"sa'irbi'o je refcfa" modifies "bajra". I'm not sure that's what you mean.

"mi'o bajra mu'i lo ricfoi" isn't clear. Is "selfi'a" the word you meant? It
means "plot", as of a story. If you mean a plot of land, that's "tumspi".

> .i mi darsi lo nu pensi lo pa selpeisku noi binxo lo spatrxorki di'o lo mi
> jamfu .i lo so'o drata cu co'a bajra .ijebo loi ri selpeisku cu binxo lo
> makpapi ku .e lo centaureia ku seri'a lo nu lo sasfoi cu culno lo xrula
> kamba'i
>
> .i co'u piro lo munje cu culno lo melbi xrula
> .i co'u piro lo munje cu sasfoi lo mlebi selpeisku

mlebi -> melbi

> Please let me know if anything is wrong or incomprehensible!

It's incomprehensible mainly because of the metaphors. How does a said thought
turn into a poppy? Metaphors be with you!

Pierre
--
lo ponse be lo mruli ku po'o cu ga'ezga roda lo ka dinko

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 1:17:34 PM UTC+2, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Thursday, July 02, 2015 01:27:37 Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:
> Anyway, I googled it in Swedish instead and this is what I'm after (the
> individual "needles", not the piece of the branch):
> https://rubinum.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/barr.jpg
> http://vetamix.net/sites/default/files/Eddi_20090617_tall_barr_1.jpg
> http://www.everydaydesign.se/image/cache/data/Marias%20produkter/Metervara/F
> ull_tyg_Barr-500x500.jpg

That would be "ku'urpezli", which can also refer to other kinds of leaves that
conifers have, or "jespezli".

I like jespezli, mostly because it sounds better to me, but also that it's meaning is a bit more open without losing the connection with the mental image. Thanks!

That means "all the birds join in the same [as something else] song". If you
mean "same [as each other]", you can say "mitsi'u", or reword it, "ro loi
cipni cu mitsi'u lo ka ce'u sanga makau".

Ahh, good. I'll simply change it to mitsi'u then. Out of curiosity, could one shorten your alternative to "ro loi cipni cu mitsi'u lo ka sanga" having the other places implicit without losing to much meaning?

> .i loi melbi selpeisku po do cu rivli'a se ka'a lo sasfoi .ijebo mi'o bajra
> gi'e farlu gi'e sa'irbi'o je refcfa bajra .i mi'o bajra mu'i lo ricfoi
> .ijebo mi'o bajra mu'i lo ka ro da na'e claxu lo selfi'a

"sa'irbi'o je refcfa" modifies "bajra". I'm not sure that's what you mean.

Ahh, okay. No, the reason I didn't use gi'e between "sa'irbi'o" and "refcfa bajra" was that I wanted to group them more together than with the previous selbri, but perhaps that isn't necessary. Changing je to gi'e would fix it right? Is there another way of grouping selbri without creating tanru?

"mi'o bajra mu'i lo ricfoi" isn't clear. Is "selfi'a" the word you meant? It
means "plot", as of a story. If you mean a plot of land, that's "tumspi".

I meant "We run for (the good of) the forest" as in "We run for my mother's sake". "The motive for our running is the forest" or perhaps more explicitly "the good of the forest" or "the future of the forest". Does this have to be more explicit? Like "mi'o bajra mu'i lo balvi pe lo ricfoi".

It's incomprehensible mainly because of the metaphors. How does a said thought
turn into a poppy? Metaphors be with you!

Well, it's all a metaphor for thoughts filling the world, and flowers are nice ;)

[Ilmen]

On 02/07/2015 14:20, Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:

That means "all the birds join in the same [as something else] song". If you
mean "same [as each other]", you can say "mitsi'u", or reword it, "ro loi
cipni cu mitsi'u lo ka ce'u sanga makau".

Ahh, good. I'll simply change it to mitsi'u then. Out of curiosity, could one shorten your alternative to "ro loi cipni cu mitsi'u lo ka sanga" having the other places implicit without losing to much meaning?

I would say {lo ro cipni cu dunsi'u lo ka sanga}, here. I don't think {ro loi cipni cu simxu...} is correct here, because this {ro} makes it distributive, whereas {simxu} expects a plurality of individuals.

As a side note, you can move around the sentence elements for achieving better rhymes.

> .i loi melbi selpeisku po do cu rivli'a se ka'a lo sasfoi .ijebo mi'o bajra
> gi'e farlu gi'e sa'irbi'o je refcfa bajra .i mi'o bajra mu'i lo ricfoi
> .ijebo mi'o bajra mu'i lo ka ro da na'e claxu lo selfi'a

"sa'irbi'o je refcfa" modifies "bajra". I'm not sure that's what you mean.

Ahh, okay. No, the reason I didn't use gi'e between "sa'irbi'o" and "refcfa bajra" was that I wanted to group them more together than with the previous selbri, but perhaps that isn't necessary. Changing je to gi'e would fix it right? Is there another way of grouping selbri without creating tanru?

Tighter grouping is achieved with {bo}. For example, {brode gi'e bo brodo}. You can also opt for {gi'e ba bo}, which means "and then…" (gi'e in itself has no implication of temporal sequence, although a temporal sequence may be deduced from context; for making a temporal sequence of events explicit, you can use {gi'e ba bo}).

By the way, {selpeisku} is undefined. Why not using simply {se peisku}, or {se pensi}? Also, using {po} there is a little weird (if I'm not mistaken, {po} is for social/legal possessions). {lo se peisku pe do} or {lo se peisku be do} would fit better I think. ({be} is for if {do} is the one who thinks the thought we're talking about; {pe} is for if the thought are related to {do}, without specifying if {do} is the one who think them).

mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o

[Erik Natanael Gustafsson]

On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 2:53:34 PM UTC+2, Ilmen wrote:

I would say {lo ro cipni cu dunsi'u lo ka sanga}, here. I don't think {ro loi cipni cu simxu...} is correct here, because this {ro} makes it distributive, whereas {simxu} expects a plurality of individuals.

What is the difference between dunsi'u and mitsi'u? You are right, they should be treated as individuals. It fits better with the context as well.

I made some slight changes in word order, but it parses in cmaxes so I think I have retained the meaning, or even clarified it a bit:

loi melbi se peisku be do
lo ricfoi lo zukte seldjica cu dasnygau
.i ro loi jespezli lo xance
mu'i lo terfapro cu galgau
.i lo ro cipni cu jorne
fi lo mitsi'u selsa'a

.i loi melbi se peisku be do
se ka'a lo sasfoi cu rivli'a

.ijebo mi'o bajra gi'e farlu

gi'e sa'irbi'o gi'e ba bo refcfa bajra
.i mi'o bajra mu'i lo xamgu be lo ricfoi

.ijebo mi'o bajra mu'i lo ka

ro da na'e claxu lo ka smuni

.i mi darsi lo nu pensi lo pa se peisku
noi binxo lo spatrxorki di'o lo jamfu po'e mi

.i lo so'o drata cu co'a bajra

.ijebo loi ri se peisku cu binxo
lo makpapi .e lo centaureia
se ri'a lo nu lo sasfoi cu culno
lo kamba'i co xrula

.i co'u piro lo munje cu culno lo melbi xrula

.i co'u piro lo munje cu sasfoi lo melbi se peisku

[Ilmen]

On 02/07/2015 21:14, Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:
> .i mi'o bajra mu'i lo xamgu be lo ricfoi

{bajra seva'u lo ricfoi} and {bajra mu'i tu'a lo ricfoi} are also
possible options, but I like {mu'i lo xamgu be lo ricfoi}.

> .ijebo mi'o bajra mu'i lo ka

mukti-1 is usually a lonu, and not a loka, so I would use {mu'i lo nu} here.

> ro da na'e claxu lo ka smuni
>
> .i mi darsi lo nu pensi lo pa se peisku

I think "lo ka" is better than "lo nu" there, as the thinker is the same
as the one who dares. (loka+selbri is similar to infinitives in English.)

> noi binxo lo spatrxorki di'o lo jamfu po'e mi

{po'e} is okay, but you could replace it with {be} here, to save one
syllable. {lo jamfu be mi} = the foot/feet of me.

[Ilmen]

On 02/07/2015 21:14, Erik Natanael Gustafsson wrote:

On Thursday, July 2, 2015 at 2:53:34 PM UTC+2, Ilmen wrote:

I would say {lo ro cipni cu dunsi'u lo ka sanga}, here. I don't think {ro loi cipni cu simxu...} is correct here, because this {ro} makes it distributive, whereas {simxu} expects a plurality of individuals.

What is the difference between dunsi'u and mitsi'u? You are right, they should be treated as individuals. It fits better with the context as well.

In my understanding:
{dunsi'u} = "x1 (plural) are mutually equal in what they are in relation x2 with".
For example, {mi'o dunsi'u lo ka (ce'u) nelci (ce'u/makau)} = "We (you+me) like the same things", "We are equal in what we like".

As for {mitsi'u}, it sounds like "everything among x1 is the same thing/individual", "x1 (plural) are one individual", or something like that. But I think other people would disagree with this interpretation.