how to translate "velocity"?

[la gleki]

what is the word for "velocity" after all?

dont tell me it's {nilsutra}

velocity=length/time

[.arpis.]

No, {nilsutra} would mean "speed". If we're being technical (which is the only reason you should care about using "velocity" instead of "speed"), velocity = displacement/time.

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--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

[Pierre Abbat]

English, at least, distinguishes velocity (a vector) from speed (a scalar).
French has both words (vélocité/vitesse); Spanish has just the one.

There is an economic term "velocity". Economic velocity has dimensions of
inverse time; it is the amount of money changing hands in unit time divided by
the total amount in circulation. We should have a different word for this than
for length/time.

We could use a lujvo "muvnilsutra" and another "cajnilsutra". Or maybe we
should use a fu'ivla. In the six source languages (from Wiktionary):
English: velocity
Chinese: 速度 (sùdù)
Spanish: velocidad
Arabic: ?
Russian: скорость
Hindi: ?
There's a Maltese word, but it's obviously from Italian, not Arabic.

If we want to distinguish the scalar from the vector, we could say
"li'urnilsutra" for the scalar and "muvnilsutra" for the vector, since "muvdu"
has origin and destination, and "litru" doesn't.

Pierre
--
.i toljundi do .ibabo mi'afra tu'a do
.ibabo damba do .ibabo do jinga
.icu'u la ma'atman.

[Michael Turniansky]

  It appears Arabic uses the same word for both -- سرعة (sur'ha(/ta)) (although the title of the wikipedia article does add متجهة (vector))

        --gejyspa

 

[Jacob Errington]

(I hate-await)

latro'a and I devised a system for making arbitrary units in Lojban. Our system involves making a zi'evla for every unit you want, and defining it using a special kind of tanru. Working under the assumption that XI+PA forms #FREE, we created two experimental cmavo: {pi'ai} (KE) and {te'ai} (XI).

{pi'ai} is used as a prefix to indicate that the unit-selbri are being multiplied to form a new unit selbri. {te'ai} is used after a unit selbri to exponentiate it.

We can easily create the units for velocity, m*s^-1, with this system as follows: 

1) prefix the tanru with pi'ai; {pi'ai ...}*

2) determine the unit selbri that we need: {mitre} and {snidu}; {pi'ai mitre snidu}*

3) exponentiate accordingly; {pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa}

Because this new unit tanru is long, we need to make up a brivla for it based on its components ideally. To indicate that it was created with this method, we decided that prefixing it with pi'air- might be a good idea, but perhaps that the prefix can be dropped contextually.

{pi'airtredilsnidu = x1 measures x2 metres per second (by standard x3)}

= pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa

Some of you may hate this system, and that's okay. It's not like I approve of everything everyone does either.

An example of defining the Newton:

{.i lo ka pi'airniutni cu ka ce'u pi'ai ki'ogra mitre snidu te'ai ni'u re ce'u ce'u}

I've been using {mitre} as a simplification for displacement. Obviously, I'd need to construct some unit selbri for displacement, then use that in these definitions above to get vectors.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

[la gleki]

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:50:33 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

On 29 January 2013 04:03, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

what is the word for "velocity" after all?

dont tell me it's {nilsutra}

velocity=length/time

(I hate-await)

latro'a and I devised a system for making arbitrary units in Lojban. Our system involves making a zi'evla for every unit you want, and defining it using a special kind of tanru. Working under the assumption that XI+PA forms #FREE, we created two experimental cmavo: {pi'ai} (KE) and {te'ai} (XI).

{pi'ai} is used as a prefix to indicate that the unit-selbri are being multiplied to form a new unit selbri. {te'ai} is used after a unit selbri to exponentiate it.

We can easily create the units for velocity, m*s^-1, with this system as follows: 

1) prefix the tanru with pi'ai; {pi'ai ...}*

2) determine the unit selbri that we need: {mitre} and {snidu}; {pi'ai mitre snidu}*

3) exponentiate accordingly; {pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa}

Because this new unit tanru is long, we need to make up a brivla for it based on its components ideally. To indicate that it was created with this method, we decided that prefixing it with pi'air- might be a good idea, but perhaps that the prefix can be dropped contextually.

{pi'airtredilsnidu = x1 measures x2 metres per second (by standard x3)}

= pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa

Some of you may hate this system, and that's okay. It's not like I approve of everything everyone does either.

I hate this system just because you have to create new zi'evla every time you use a new formula (yes, just like in natlangs!).

But speed is just "Length/time". Just a simple formula.

I wish someone could say here

Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

(entities should not be multiplied needlessly).

i.e. i wish someone could express Length/time, not speed in a concise way.

[Jonathan Jones]

parbi loka mitre loka snidu
pab  -  tre  -  nid

A zi'evla might be better than a lujvo in this instance, if only because the rafsi suck.

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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

parbi loni mitre loni snidu

pab  -  tre  -  nid

Sorry, quantity not property.
 

[Jacob Errington]

On 29 January 2013 11:15, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 7:50:33 PM UTC+4, tsani wrote:

On 29 January 2013 04:03, la gleki <gleki.is...@gmail.com> wrote:

what is the word for "velocity" after all?

dont tell me it's {nilsutra}

velocity=length/time

(I hate-await)

latro'a and I devised a system for making arbitrary units in Lojban. Our system involves making a zi'evla for every unit you want, and defining it using a special kind of tanru. Working under the assumption that XI+PA forms #FREE, we created two experimental cmavo: {pi'ai} (KE) and {te'ai} (XI).

{pi'ai} is used as a prefix to indicate that the unit-selbri are being multiplied to form a new unit selbri. {te'ai} is used after a unit selbri to exponentiate it.

We can easily create the units for velocity, m*s^-1, with this system as follows: 

1) prefix the tanru with pi'ai; {pi'ai ...}*

2) determine the unit selbri that we need: {mitre} and {snidu}; {pi'ai mitre snidu}*

3) exponentiate accordingly; {pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa}

Because this new unit tanru is long, we need to make up a brivla for it based on its components ideally. To indicate that it was created with this method, we decided that prefixing it with pi'air- might be a good idea, but perhaps that the prefix can be dropped contextually.

{pi'airtredilsnidu = x1 measures x2 metres per second (by standard x3)}

= pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa

Some of you may hate this system, and that's okay. It's not like I approve of everything everyone does either.

I hate this system just because you have to create new zi'evla every time you use a new formula (yes, just like in natlangs!).

But speed is just "Length/time". Just a simple formula.

i.e. i wish someone could express Length/time, not speed in a concise way.

That comment makes me think that you didn't quite read the whole e-mail... Excuse me if you did.

I did introduce two experimental cmavo that allow us to multiply together unit selbri. (As for your Latin citation... I'm sorry, but multiplication is where baby units come from.)

The unit selbri for "length/time", with this system, is {pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa}. I am willing to bet that it is as concise as it's going to get for what it does, which is a lot.

This system is wonderful because it doesn't *require* the creation of lujvo *or* zi'evla. You would only do that if the unit is actually useful for every day purposes. (If it's only useful for one author in one super-technical paper, he or she can say {<complicated unit> cei <some temporary zi'evla>} and all is well.)

Also, as for "having to create new zi'evla every time you use a new formula, just like in natlangs", I think you're misunderstanding something about Lojban: knowing the gimste and the grammar like that back of your hand is not enough. Lojban vocabulary is extremely lacking in technical fields. Even only slightly technical fields. A word for "speed" wouldn't be a bad thing, you know. And neither would a word for every useful unit.

[selpa'i]

la gleki cu cusku di'e

> what is the word for "velocity" after all?
> dont tell me it's {nilsutra}
> velocity=length/time

Another way to express such units is:

"length / time" = {li ni'e ni clani fe'i ni'e ni temci}

With lujvo:

{li ni'e nilcla fe'i ni'e niltei}

This is not that much longer than the English "length divided by time".
Now a lujvo can be made that uses the above formula as (part of) its
definition. Something like the following (which is to be considered a
sketch open to review):

{zo nilclanilteidilcu zo'u: x1 me li ni'e ni clani fa lo jai ve'a muvdu
be fai x2 te'u fe'i ni'e ni ditcu fa lo nu x2 muvdu}

"length-time-quotient: x1 is the length of the interval of x2's moving
divided by the duration for which x2 moves"

Feel free to make adjustments to or dismiss alltogether my humble use of
mekso. :)

mu'o mi'e la selpa'i

[Jacob Errington]

On 29 January 2013 12:20, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

parbi loni mitre loni snidu

pab  -  tre  -  nid

Sorry, quantity not property.
  

A zi'evla might be better than a lujvo in this instance, if only because the rafsi suck.

A zi'evla is actually a must, because the lujvo couldn't have the desired place structure, "x1 measures x2 meters per second (by standard x3)".

Even if you throw jvajvo out the window completely, there's some serious place structure craziness going on if one were to assign parbi zei mitre zei snidu that definition. (Also, the lujvo should have parbi *last* because its the main claim.) 

[Álvaro Vallejo]

Spanish:

Velocity = velocidad
Speed = rapidez

[Jonathan Jones]

Regarding the below, it doesn't seem to be correct.

That is, your example looks to be "(m*s)^-1", not "m*(s^-1)".

I could be reading it wrong, of course.

Also, what's the terminator? {ke'e}?

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:

latro'a and I devised a system for making arbitrary units in Lojban. Our system involves making a zi'evla for every unit you want, and defining it using a special kind of tanru. Working under the assumption that XI+PA forms #FREE, we created two experimental cmavo: {pi'ai} (KE) and {te'ai} (XI).

{pi'ai} is used as a prefix to indicate that the unit-selbri are being multiplied to form a new unit selbri. {te'ai} is used after a unit selbri to exponentiate it.

We can easily create the units for velocity, m*s^-1, with this system as follows: 

1) prefix the tanru with pi'ai; {pi'ai ...}*

2) determine the unit selbri that we need: {mitre} and {snidu}; {pi'ai mitre snidu}*

3) exponentiate accordingly; {pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa}

Because this new unit tanru is long, we need to make up a brivla for it based on its components ideally. To indicate that it was created with this method, we decided that prefixing it with pi'air- might be a good idea, but perhaps that the prefix can be dropped contextually.

{pi'airtredilsnidu = x1 measures x2 metres per second (by standard x3)}

= pi'ai mitre snidu te'ai ni'u pa

Some of you may hate this system, and that's okay. It's not like I approve of everything everyone does either.

An example of defining the Newton:

{.i lo ka pi'airniutni cu ka ce'u pi'ai ki'ogra mitre snidu te'ai ni'u re ce'u ce'u}

I've been using {mitre} as a simplification for displacement. Obviously, I'd need to construct some unit selbri for displacement, then use that in these definitions above to get vectors.

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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[Jonathan Jones]

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 2:27 PM, Jacob Errington <nict...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 29 January 2013 12:20, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 10:18 AM, Jonathan Jones <eye...@gmail.com> wrote:

parbi loni mitre loni snidu

pab  -  tre  -  nid

Sorry, quantity not property.
  

A zi'evla might be better than a lujvo in this instance, if only because the rafsi suck.

A zi'evla is actually a must, because the lujvo couldn't have the desired place structure, "x1 measures x2 meters per second (by standard x3)".

Um, no. My example couldn't be used for that at all: {li vo parbi loni mitre ku loni snidu} = "5 m/s", which would be the x2 of the above.
 

Even if you throw jvajvo out the window completely, there's some serious place structure craziness going on if one were to assign parbi zei mitre zei snidu that definition. (Also, the lujvo should have parbi *last* because its the main claim.) 

.i mi'e la tsani mu'o

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[Ian Johnson]

This assumes you believe that you can actually take ratios like that. Myself I don't; I think units are fundamentally selbri rather than sumti in Lojban, and that the natlang solution of thinking of quantities and products/ratios thereof is actually quite strange, despite being mathematically consistent. Under this standpoint only pi'ai/te'ai or a similar system makes sense.

mi'e la latro'a mu'o

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[guskant]

Le mercredi 30 janvier 2013 06:52:39 UTC+9, aionys a écrit :

Regarding the below, it doesn't seem to be correct.

That is, your example looks to be "(m*s)^-1", not "m*(s^-1)".

I could be reading it wrong, of course.

No, because {pi'ai} is of KE and {te'ai} is of XI: {te'ai} connects earlier than {pi'ai}.

I support (uisai) the idea of {pi'ai} and {te'ai}, because it seems highly conformable to the system of dimensional analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensional_analysis

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 13:52:33 Álvaro Vallejo wrote:
> Spanish:
>
> Velocity = velocidad
> Speed = rapidez

Is "rapidez" used for something measured in meters per second? Spanish is my
third language, and I haven't studied physics in it.

Pierre
--
li fi'u vu'u fi'u fi'u du li pa

[Pierre Abbat]

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:18:59 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> parbi loka mitre loka snidu
> pab - tre - nid

The Book recommends using the rafsi of "frinu" for this (the word "fi'u"
doesn't have a rafsi). Now there's a table or something in the Book stating or
implying (I'm too tired to look it up) that the rafsi of "frinu" is "fi'u",
thus giving "trefi'usnidu", whereas the gimste assigns "fi'u" to "cfipu". This
situation is, of course, cfipu. But "trefrinysnidu" is correct regardless of
what "fi'u" is the rafsi of.

This doesn't help with a word for "velocity", which shouldn't have any unit
names in it, despite the word "voltage".

Pierre
--
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera

[MorphemeAddict]

Or "mileage", which isn't the number of miles in a distance. 

OTOH, speed as distance (or length) divided by time should be acceptable, as long as only the measurable properties are involved, and not units per se. 

stevo 

Pierre
--
sei do'anai mi'a djuno puze'e noroi nalselganse srera

[la gleki]

On Wednesday, January 30, 2013 10:02:29 AM UTC+4, Pierre Abbat wrote:

On Tuesday, January 29, 2013 10:18:59 Jonathan Jones wrote:
> parbi loka mitre loka snidu
> pab  -  tre  -  nid

The Book recommends using the rafsi of "frinu" for this (the word "fi'u"
doesn't have a rafsi). Now there's a table or something in the Book stating or
implying (I'm too tired to look it up) that the rafsi of "frinu" is "fi'u",
thus giving "trefi'usnidu", whereas the gimste assigns "fi'u" to "cfipu". This
situation is, of course, cfipu.

This is a well-known issue.

http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL,+aka+Reference+Grammar,+Errata

I wish {-fi'u-} was a rafsi of frinu again.