Re: [Lnc-votes] [Lnc-business] Resignation From LPF

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I'm not familiar with the alleged threats, but resigning from the Florida LP does seem like an extreme step, Paul. If you believe excessive tolerance of white supremacists is a problem in the Florida LP, it sounds like your state party could use your counterbalancing voice in its leadership, as you provided when you ran against one such member in the U.S. Senate primary and handily prevailed. But if you do not have the stomach for it, I hope you find a better fit in one of the other state affiliate parties (you can generally affiliate with a different state party without living in that state).

Steven makes a good point about the need to stay focused, in the face of distractions like banality and political turbulence, on our goal of minimizing government and maximizing freedom.

Regarding your signature line Steven, when we're talking about political power let us also remember,

Libertatem tueri posse infidelium

"Power cannot be trusted to defend freedom."

And more classically,

Non venimus laudare Caesare, sed ad eum.

"We come not to praise Caeser, but to bury him."

Love & Liberty,

                           ((( starchild )))

At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee

                   RealR...@earthlink.net

                          (415) 625-FREE

                           @StarchildSF

On Oct 23, 2017, at 6:19 AM, <regi...@lpf.org> wrote:

Paul,

I think that you have seriously squandered your potential during your stint as regional representative. To the EC this ought to be a lesson that the more time we spend fighting each other the less time we spend fighting our common enemy, the State and its tyranny. To be effective we have to stick to our objective as a centrifugal force that keeps the collective momentum together. Nothing good comes fast nor easy in politics, to succeed in fighting for liberty requires absolute dedication to our goals during the banal and turbulent times that wish to distract us. I say that with a great sense of urgency. Results are the metric for success, and you don't get that by winning personal squabbles and being carried away with dramaticism.

In Liberty,

Steven Nekhaila
Region 14 Representative

Libertarian Party of Florida

Impotentes defendere libertatum non possunt

"Those without power cannot defend freedom"

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Resignation From LPF
From: "Paul Stanton" <reg...@lpf.org>
Date: Sun, October 22, 2017 6:54 pm
To: e...@lpf.org
Cc: ch...@lp.org, vice...@lp.org, secr...@lp.org, trea...@lp.org,
william...@lp.org, daniel...@lp.org, star...@lp.org,
sam.go...@lp.org, joshu...@lp.org, caryn.an...@lp.org,
steven....@lp.org, ed.m...@lp.org, steven....@lp.org,
brett....@lp.org, ken.mo...@lp.org, jeffrey...@lp.org,
aaron...@lp.org, james...@lp.org, trent...@lp.org,
david.d...@lp.org, sean....@lp.org, whitney...@lp.org,
erin....@lp.org, patrick....@lp.org, larry....@lp.org,
wes.be...@lp.org

Marcos,

Due to the LPF Executive Committee's recent refusal to respond to threats targeting myself and others from Ryan Ramsey, a white supremacist leader, LPF county chair, LPF EC member, and candidate for Florida House, I hereby resign from all positions and membership within the Libertarian Party of Florida, as I can no longer in good faith continue to ask other Libertarians to support a party which allows its leaders to threaten and intimidate members while repeating violent white supremacist and anti-semitic rhetoric.

Libertarians deserve better than the Libertarian Party of Florida.

Please remove me from any mailing or membership lists and add me to the LPF's do not call list. I will not be responding to any email sent to this address.

In liberty,
Paul Stanton

Follow me on Facebook: fb.com/Stanton4Liberty

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

You are right Stardchild, that slogan actually comes form Freedom Force International, the group that originally made me interested in engaging in politics in order to change the system. We need to wield power to protect freedom, but we also need to throw that power away once we hold it so it may not be abused, by anyone. An act of pure self-discipline.

Since joining the movement I am learning new Latin phrases all the time.

In Liberty,

Steven Nekhaila
Region 14 Representative

Libertarian Party of Florida

 

Impotentes defendere libertatum non possunt

"Those without power cannot defend freedom"

_______________________________________________
Lnc-business mailing list
Lnc-bu...@hq.lp.org
http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

The trap of the ring.  Does anyone throw it away? I see less and less commitment to that but rather more "winning at any cost" strategy and once the price of pricinples has been paid, so has the commitment to bring freedom - and a belief that we will use the ring for good.  And no one ever does.

Always be sure we are trying to what n freedom to give it back to its rightful owners.

To everyone reading, are you?

-Caryn Ann

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Har...@LP.org

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Oh yes because the LNC interfering in the autonomy of an affiliate worked out SO WELL in the past.

I'm not eager to repeat Oregon.

And Florida has a representative.  He was elected to deal with the concerns of that region and responded.

-Caryn Ann

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 6:45 PM Erin Adams <erin...@thefeldmanfoundation.org> wrote:

I tend to agree with Mr. Katz on this. 

On Oct 23, 2017 7:40 PM, "Joshua Katz" <joshu...@lp.org> wrote:

The original email in this thread was from Mr. Stanton (whom I've never met).  He accused a member of the LPF leadership, who is also a Libertarian candidate (and whom I have also never met) of being a white supremacist leader, and of making threats towards himself and others.  I have no way of knowing if these accusations are true, but they most certainly are disturbing if true - and the sorts of things I would expect the affiliate to react to.  If they are true and the affiliate does not react, I would expect this board to take action.

Instead, the responses I've seen seem to combine shrugs with exhortations that Mr. Stanton should deal with it himself, and some variation on "hey, we're all on the same team, work together."  Again, I do not know if the accusations are true, but if they are, then we are not, in fact, all on the same team.  I am not on the same team as any white supremacist, or anyone who thinks the use of threats and intimidation, together with violent white supremacist and anti-semitic rhetoric, are acceptable ways of conducting business.  

Such a pre-modern retreat to tribalism, to prejudice, to anti-individualism, is the single largest threat to human freedom.  It is the condition in which humans lived for quite some time, before civilization made real freedom possible.  No party that stands for freedom against all threats can tolerate those in its midst who would hold those positions, let alone allowing those who advocate such positions to hold leadership positions.  This cannot be a party that tolerates such things.  At the moment, I have no actual facts.  Furthermore, there is little we can do - but little is not the same as nothing.  Let's get the facts.  The response to such a statement cannot be "well, you figure it out."  That is not leadership.  Nor should the response be immediate panic, or a rush to judgment.  I would think the accusations are of such a nature, though, that we'd want to know what is going on.

Joshua A. Katz

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

PS: I do know Paul and he is good people. I appreciate his keeping us informed.

But our role is not to meddling in an affiliate.  We might not like how we are set up but there it is.

We can make statements on behalf of the National Party.  We can disaffiliate an affiliate.

That's about it.  

If something was ever to the point if disaffiliation we would know it.

We are not the parent of an affiliate and they are not our mere satellites.  We are the tail.  They are the dog.  Tails don't wag dogs effectively.

-Caryn Ann 

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Our only recourse is disaffiliation.

And obviously I think such claims if true to be a gross violation of the SoP.

I also think promoting any continuation of state force is and we can find examples of that if we wish to being promoted within state parties.

I'm not eager to go down that road.

Which is the same answer I gave people who wanted us to "do something" about our last ticket.

I find white nationalism to be completely unacceptable and cheered at Wes' invitation for them to leave.  Note it did not contain any threat to throw them out or discipline them because *that is not our role*

Every action above the bounds starts with good intentions.  Good intentions gave us the welfare state.  I do not want nor are we entitled to be, consolidating power in the LNC no matter what "good" thing might come of one action.

The national party consistently putting out consistent principles foundational libertarianism and eschewing both a drift to the right and to the left is what we can and should do.

The white nationalists hate me for a reason - I think ethnomasochist is their preferred term for me- but that does not justify us patenting an affiliate.

-Caryn Ann

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 7:59 PM Erin Adams <erin...@thefeldmanfoundation.org> wrote:

IF there is "merit" to these claims, would not article 5 section 4 of the bylaws come into question? Are we REALLY saying that if this is true, promoting an agenda of hate or allowing the promotion of such is in line with the Statement of Principles or the Bylaws? I just dont see it that way

In Liberty,
Erin Adams
Director of Fundraising and Events

The Feldman Foundation
(405) 780-2791

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Caryn Ann, thank you for sharing your disgust with bigotry.

 

Economic and social ostracism responses to bigotry are appropriate from all of us, both as individual Libertarians and as members of Libertarian institutions. It may be a Florida problem but that will not stop me as a Nebraskan from expressing my disgust with anything related to supremacy-driven behavior.

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I don't think the conversation is about our personal disgust.  I doubt there is anyone here who doesn't feel the same.  I have actually argued that LP Libertarianism is actually "thick" on that score - we reprove all bigotry whether it involves force or not.

This isn't about our personal disgust.  It is about what the LNC can and should do as the LNC.

In my personal capacity I express such disgust routinely.

But I'm not going down the road of LNC policing.  Oregon was the motivation for me to go down this path of national leadership.  I ran on a promise of not expanding LNC control over affiliates.

We can personally support Paul.  But that was sent to us as an LNC body and I have NO mandate from Region 1 to interfere in Florida.  And none of the Region 1 states want the LNC in their business either.

We can and should clearly and forcefully state our position.  And if someone has the desire to move to disaffiliate- do so.  But us talking about what "else" we can do as the LNC above our role is not appropriate.

We can encourage our state affiliates to take a stand.  CO loves to put out resolutions- they might here.

We can put out statements,  But our ONLY disciplinary route with Florida is disaffiliation.

-Caryn Ann 

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Please point out where I advocated silence.

I specifically stated that we should clearly and boldly state our positions.  That is not silence.

But we have no other control over Florida than that or to disaffiliate.  That is within the bounds of the voluntary association we signed up for.  Our personal disgust does not give us authority to go beyond our Bylaws.

We shall not interfere with the autonomy of an affiliate except as provided by those Bylaws which makes no provision for dictating their leadership or their message other than to insist it comport with the Statement of Principles or face disaffiliation.  Both parties in this marriage are free to divorce.  If an affiliate was proven to be corrupt with white nationalism, that may indeed be appropriate.

-Caryn Ann 

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 8:50 PM Erin Adams <erin...@thefeldmanfoundation.org> wrote:

There are a lot of if's here, agreed. If this can be proven , if the affiliate allows and or supports this........ If those things are true, and we stay silent, that makes us complicit. That is not an action I will voluntary associate with. Complicit support of bigotry isnt a path Ill join anyone on. Not today, not ever. Thats just me.

In Liberty,
Erin Adams
Director of Fundraising and Events

The Feldman Foundation
(405) 780-2791

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

 >If an affiliate was proven to be corrupt with white nationalism, that may indeed be appropriate.

And I would like to know if that is the case.  I can't decide what action I will advocate without knowing.

Cancers sometimes get amputated, but you don't push for amputation without diagnosing the cancer and seeing if it can be fought off without intervention.  I'm not prepared to make any motion on the basis of an accusation, but when the accusation is this serious, I'd like to know what's behind it.  If there's no problem, fine.  If there is a problem but the affiliate is working on it, fine.  If the facts are something else, then I will consider if I'll make the appropriate motion.  

Joshua A. Katz

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 9:57 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos <carynan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Please point out where I advocated silence.

I specifically stated that we should clearly and boldly state our positions.  That is not silence.

But we have no other control over Florida than that or to disaffiliate.  That is within the bounds of the voluntary association we signed up for.  Our personal disgust does not give us authority to go beyond our Bylaws.

We shall not interfere with the autonomy of an affiliate except as provided by those Bylaws which makes no provision for dictating their leadership or their message other than to insist it comport with the Statement of Principles or face disaffiliation.  Both parties in this marriage are free to divorce.  If an affiliate was proven to be corrupt with white nationalism, that may indeed be appropriate.

-Caryn Ann 

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

That did not seem to be what Josh was calling for.  We should always be zealous to uphold the Statement of Principles which is - pursuant to our Bylaws, the sole reason we exist.

And I would say - Wes message was not effective for what?  Stating our position?  It certainly was.  Are any of these people National Party members who did not leave?  Or are they just state affiliate members?

I would hope, additionally, that we would resoect the fact that such Region elected a representative and it is not us.  

I see very little of asking him for his evaluation and thoughts and he is the one closest to the situation.

-Caryn Ann  

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 9:05 PM Erin Adams <erin...@thefeldmanfoundation.org> wrote:

And Since those Bylaws allow for us  to insist that the affiliate comport with the Statement of Principles or face disaffiliation, maybe it would be worth investigating the accusation and then doing just that if this is factual. If the allegations levied are indeed true, It leads me to believe that actions like Wes' invitation for them to leave are not as effective as one would hope

In Liberty,
Erin Adams
Director of Fundraising and Events

The Feldman Foundation
(405) 780-2791

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Have you asked Steve for his view Josh?  Seems to me that is the first step.  Speaking for myself, I would feel pretty disrespected if everyone starting talking about one of my states without actively speaking with me.

-Caryn Ann 

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

The regional rep is Ed.  I called him, several months ago, and asked what was going on.  I will ask him again.  I am not setting myself up as sole, or even main, determiner of facts, though, so I don't think it's enough for the regional rep to tell me what he sees.

Steve gave his view by email earlier today.  I sent him a follow-up email directly.  

Joshua A. Katz

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

And to raise another bramble bush - our SoP actually does not deal with bigoted beliefs.  Our Platform does, but the SoP deals with force.  And bigotry is not force - not everything that is bad is force.

What specific action is the Florida affiliate accused of that involves force?

Allowing threats and intimidation?  That would certainly be force but it would be regardless of motivation.

I personally repudiate all bigotry.  I would like to see an argument that our SoP requires that if the bigot is not using force.

Threats and intimidation is a clear violation.

-Caryn Ann 

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

My mistake on confusing rep and alternate.  Thanks for correcting me Josh.

I would like to hear from Ed.

-Caryn Ann

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Yes it does.  But our society bsequent discussion dealt with other issues.

Now I think we can disaffiliate for cause other than the SoP but that's another topic.

If there are threats and intimidation by the affiliate that is something of great concern.

-Caryn Ann 

On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 9:33 PM Erin Adams <erin...@thefeldmanfoundation.org> wrote:

The original Email includes accusations of threats and intimidation. This is all speculative without some kind of Evidence

In Liberty,
Erin Adams
Director of Fundraising and Events

The Feldman Foundation
(405) 780-2791

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

===Okay, if a motion is requested and offered to investigate the facts in the Florida case, I will support it.====

Subject to being overruled by my state Chairs, so would I.

===

 Alleged bigotry violations of the SoP are far more serious than alleged violations of LP copyrights.===

Nearly everything is more important than the copyright issue that the Bylaws committee is intent on championing even though the duly elected representatives of this Body categorically voted it down.

However, how does non-violent bigotry violate the SoP?  The SoP isn't my sole measure for a virtuous life but let's be clear what is being accused.

==In the meantime I will continue to express my personal disgust with any form of bigotry and will advocate and practice economic and social ostracism to deal with any intolerant behavior, violent or non-violent, that I am aware of.==

As will I.  But the LNC cannot ostracize an affiliate.  If we do not disaffiliate we cannot shun.

-Caryn Ann 

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

How many times can Paul Stanton recycle this same complaint for going on years.   Video or a police report or it didn't happen. This is an internal thing for Florida. Wanna bolster the white supremacists in the Party? Keep paying them attention.

Daniel Hayes

LNC At Large Member

Sent from my iPhone

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I talk with the leadership (officers) of the LPF on a regular basis.

Not one regular member or member of the Exc. Com has asked me to

have the LNC involved in this matter.

At this time unless something changes let the Florida Libertarian Party

take care of its own internal business.

Ed Marsh 

Region 2 Rep (Florida,Georgia,Tennessee)

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Thank you Ed.  I really appreciate your thoughts.

-Caryn Ann

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I also agree with Ed.

 

Caryn Ann, just to make it perfectly clear, I will support an investigative motion only if requested by someone in the Florida affiliate.

 

In the meantime, I will continue to disregard political correctness, speak out against mindless bigotry at every opportunity and encourage economic and social ostracism to cope with both supremacist violence and the moral wrong of non-violent ‘bake the cake’ intolerance. State-sponsored retaliatory violence is not the answer to intolerance and just leaves the door open for state-initiated repression that we Libertarians are supposed to be fighting against.

 

There is no place for bigotry in the LP and the Libertarianism movement, regardless of whether or not specific intolerant acts violate the Non-Aggression Principle.

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-busine...@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Caryn Ann Harlos
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2017 1:17 AM
To: edn...@yahoo.com
Cc: lnc-bu...@hq.lp.org; lnc-business <lnc-bu...@lp.org>
Subject: Re: [Lnc-business] Resignation From LPF

 

Thank you Ed.  I really appreciate your thoughts.

 

-Caryn Ann

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

My original reply wasn't intended for the LNC, it was intended for the LPF Executive Committee, but since this has become a matter that National is discussing let me give my full thoughts and feelings on the subject, or at least address some things people are probably wondering at this time.

First of, I have been serving my tenure on the LPF EC for my third term now and I have been around since before Augustus Invictus decided to run for senate. Our affiliate has dealt with so much drama that we would have been prime pickings for a reality TV show or Netflix special, despite the fact that we were simultaneously getting ready for a Presidential election year.

In this time, I become familiar with Ramsey and others in the LPF who have been the subjects to a lot of scrutiny and attention. Ramsey and his significant other have always been very kind and friendly towards me, being mixed race didn't seem to have any effect on that. We have had a great personal and professional relationship working in the LPF, I have even appeared on Ramsey's podcast to discuss cryptocurrency. My understanding is that Ramsey has had previous life in which he had held white supremacist beliefs, but has reformed his views and disbanded that mentality. Nothing makes me believe that that is a lie, and from a perspective of pure objectivity, I challenge anyone to find any white supremacist motions, resolutions or convictions in our minutes or any racial superiority being espoused in any of our county affiliates, you will find none. Stanton, who I believe has a lot of potential as a liberty activist, has been ringing the bells proclaiming white supremacy is proliferating the Florida Executive Committee, this is not true. If it were, I hope this body would trust that the delegates of the Libertarian Party of Florida have made a good faith decision to elect their representatives whom they believe are competent enough to serve and would route out anyone who they believe espoused racist ideas. I for one find all forms of racism repugnant, along with ethnology-nationalism which I believe is a tyrannical ideology which only seeks to Balkanize the world.

Stanton has been attempting to make a case for Ramsey's removal or suspension for quite some time, but I don't find it all convincing enough to believe that Ramsey wishes to push a white Nationalist agenda in the LPF. For one, Stanton mentions Ramsey's advocacy of Operation Werewolf, a group of pagans who are into weightlifting, martial arts, motorcycles and self-development. They are a group of white men and women who have been accosted by anti-hate organizations, one of their members, Jack Donovan, is friends with Chuck Phaliniuk, the author of Fight Club, the connections just get weirder and weirder but you can make any associations you want depending on how deep you want to go. I have read books by Jack Donovan and Paul Waggner who are members of Operation Werewolf, I like to think I understand the mentality that lays behind such groups. I can understand why someone follows a group like this without being a racist for instance. I cannot pretend to live inside anyone's mind, but I can make assumptions and rational perceptions based off of what actions others take.

Despite the hard work of our affiliate, the dozens of local races and a gubernatorial race we are participating in this election season, time and time again the important work we do is overshadowed due to non-concerns. How do I know they are non-concerns? Because there is no practical effect seen within our affiliates operations that leans towards racism. I challenged Stanton to point out specific examples of official acts of racism and he has failed to do so. In the meantime, those who believe they are fighting for a righteous cause by continuing to slander the LPF are the biggest threat to our affiliate. I have been taught to protect my reputation with my life, and I feel the same sense of preservation for the image of the LPF, however, by painting the LPF as some sort of group of neo-nazi sympathizers, fascists, racists, or any other broad brushed insult extensive damage has been done to our name and reputation which has resulted in many members dropping out lest they become guilty by association as well as the subject of attacks from Libertarian affiliates nation-wide who think they understand our situation. The LPF EC is sick of it, last meetings vote was a double jeopardy motion to suspend Ramsey but we do not find the evidence convincing, many of the EC members view it as a scorched Earth crusade of virtue signaling and selfish passive-aggressiveness by a small camp who have nothing else to contribute. 100 percent of Stanton's motions since becoming a regional representative have been to either censure, suspend, or remove someone he doesn't agree with. I am personally sick and tired of it all, all we want to do is advance freedom and make 2018 a successful election year for libertarians across the state of Florida. As far as the violent threats, without a police report or some sort of public or private investigation I do not feel comfortable assigning a verdict and refuse to do so. The Libertarian Party of Florida is not a Human Resources department, mediation service nor a court room, we are a political Party, and I will not allow petty squabbles to get in the way of our objectives unless absolutely necessary. So far, we have spent countless hours over many years publicly discussing these issues and our decision was reflected in last meetings vote.

I do not believe the LNC should be getting involved in Florida's affairs, no amount of statements or censures will change our situation and will only be another blow to our reputation. We will handle it and may be finally turning a corner. Let us focus on our 2018 election season in peace.

Sincerely,

Steven Nekhaila

LNC Region 2 Representative Alternate

LPF Region 14 Representative
305-393-6412

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Vigilance is always required.  I do find the ethno-nationalist movement very dangerous.  But I have the opinion that the far left is equally so (not that I think any of our affiliates are in bed with the far left), and we rightly (notice I said the instinct is correct) get lathered up over one and not the other.  I have seen calls for violent resistance to basic property rights from scattered individuals (literally violent assertions), yet never a word, but we can't talk enough about the violent right.  Both are existential threats to our movement.  And we have to be vigilant against both.  Violence, bigotry, identitarianism of any flavour (that I understand is the new buzzword) has no place here.

-Caryn Ann

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 12:52 PM, Joshua Katz <joshu...@lp.org> wrote:

Thank you to both Steven, Paul Frankel, and Tom Knapp for inserting much-needed facts into this discussion.  In light of these facts, I think vigilance is called for, but do not think it is appropriate, at this time, to make a relevant motion.

I will note, without getting into the weeds, that while I won't quibble with facts alleged about Florida, I would disagree with some of the statements made about certain national groups, or in other ways about the dangerous movement we face.  I think they are more dangerous than they've been described here, and while in the past I considered them individually dangerous, I now consider them to be an organizational threat - and a threat to the modern world which made freedom possible.  (Murray Rothbard pointed out, in 1965, that freedom was made possible by the overthrow of the Ancien Regime, and I think the pre-modern thinking on the right, and the post-modern thinking on the left, are both creating an environment where it can return.)  I consider them, at the moment, the most immediate threat to freedom in our culture, since they have organized and gone beyond being individual cranks - they now are making moves on the world of ideas, which controls the rest.  And remember that far too many people associate us with them.  The Charlottesville morons (if it brings them any comfort, I think I speak on behalf of all Jews when I say that none of us desire to be mouth-breathing bigots carrying tiki torches, so their fears about us replacing them are misplaced) used a banner which was based on the Albany Plan of Union banner - and one of the snake pieces was labeled L.  

In any event, as concerns Florida, I think the analysis is pretty straightforward, although the determinations are not.  Is there a problem?  I am convinced there is, and I am convinced we should not ignore it and blind ourselves to it.  Another party tried that approach, as well as "well, we'll bring them along for their votes on the things we agree about," and now is largely unable to get candidates who actually favor its basic ideas through primaries.  The next question, the crucial question, is - can the affiliate fix it?  (A related, but somewhat different question, is whether it wants to.)  I think the answer to that is yes.  There is, of course, a tipping point - a point where rather than try to fix the problem, good people simply leave, and the ability to fix the problem goes away.  And good people are, it seems clear to me, leaving.  I still do not think the tipping point has been reached, though. 

Joshua A. Katz

At-Large Representative,

Libertarian National Committee

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <travelli...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Lnc-votes] [Lnc-business] Resignation From LPF
To: "Caryn.An...@LP.org" <caryn.an...@lp.org>, Independent Political Report <independent-political-report@googlegroups.com>, "ipr...@googlegroups.com" <ipr...@googlegroups.com>, erin....@lp.org, Whitney Bilyeu <whitn...@gmail.com>, Joshua Katz <joshu...@lp.org>, David Demarest <David.D...@lp.org>, Daniel Hayes <daniel...@lp.org>, Ed Marsh <edn...@yahoo.com>, Steven Nekhaila <Steven....@gmail.com>, Starchild <sfdr...@earthlink.net>, Paul Stanton <pa...@stanton.name>

I'm writing to LNC members who commented in this thread plus Whitney as my rep, IPR teamCCed for background, and Paul Stanton CCed. If any of the LNC members copied feel it's worth sharing with the rest of LNC please do so. If not, my feelings won't be hurt either. 

I'm not going to comment on what if anything LNC should do, just lay out the facts as I know them, 

Just before Paul Stanton resigned from LPF exec comm he submitted the following to that body (see links embedded in original): 

https://groups.google.com/forum/embed/#!topic/lpfec/7Ii6WazfTGo

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Greetings,

Tonight's motion 520 is mainly regarding threats and advocacy of violence against me and others, including a current US Senate candidate and former rules chair of the Libertarian Party of Miami-Dade.  Additionally, he is a leader in a white supremacist group, the American Guard, a spin-off group of the violent anti-immigrant Sons of Odin - founded by Brien James (who also founded the Vinlanders - a Neo-Nazi group responsible for dozens of murders).  The crossed cleavers in their shield is a reference to 19th century anti-immigrant gang leader, Bill the Butcher - an advocacy of violence against immigrants.

Ryan Ramsey himself covers white nationalist "Rock Against Communism" bands like Screwdriver, and advocates for Operation Werewolf.  He has called the LNC Chair Nick Sarwark "Nazi Nick," citing Nick's Jewish religion, then blaming people "disingenuous political leaders like Nick Sarwark" for the rise of the Nazi Party and ultimately the Holocaust.

Here are some links which I will be referencing tonight at the meeting:

https://www.facebook.com/libertarianheathen/photos/a.1959795147587414.1073741828.1954915414742054/2002228056677456/
https://www.adl.org/blog/behind-the-american-guard-hardcore-white-supremacists
http://libertarianheathen.com
http://archive.is/t5jC7

Bottom line, I am sick of seeing threats of violence against good Libertarians, and others disassociating in disgust over the intimidation tactics, dehumanization, and white supremacist rhetoric being employed by leaders within our party.  If we allow one of our leaders to threaten our membership while having the ability to stop it, voters and donors have no reason to take our party seriously, as we clearly do not.

The delegates very clearly gave us the ability to remove people from the EC for violation of the non-aggression pledge.  Tonight we must decide if we will take that task seriously or not.

In liberty,
Paul Stanton

Folowup message: 

Info about the 1930s German Nazi history book that Ryan Ramsey took his meme from:

http://spartacus-educational.com/Jewish_Children.htm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Frankel: I can also attest to the threats coming from Ramsey, his former close associate Augustus Invictus and others in their circle. 

Back in April of this year, on a tip from IPR site owner Warren Redlich, I published http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/police-report-augustus-invictus-accused-of-domestic-violence-sexual-assault-kidnapping/  detailing that Mr. Invictus' ex-fiancee made these very serious allegations against him. I confirmed with the police department in question that the referenced report had in fact been filed. I made no comment in the article about the truth or falsehood of the allegations. Any comments of opinions I made in the comment section on the same basis as any of our other readers and clearly marked as opinion. Notably, the complaintant and associate of hers also reported death threats at the time from Invictus and Ramsey, who have since then (very recently) had a falling out. Witness tampering was also one of the allegations. 

I also republished http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-to-the-cowardly-collaborators-of-the-libertarian-party-of-florida-and-a-call-to-action-against-them/   (note that the original and its website were taken down so the images no longer appear; scroll down to see the section about Ryan Ramsey as the last part of the article). 

As a response, 1) Augustus Invictus wrote me and Warren Redlich, insinuating possible legal action and hinting at other forms of retaliation; he later wrote another former associate of his, Raquel Okyay, which was later forwarded to me, naming me as one of the people he plans to take some form of unspecified revenge on.   2) Ryan Ramsey published two articles filled with outright lies and slanderous fictions about me, Redlich, and others alleging some grand conspiracy . You can find them at libertarianheathen.com with a search for Frankel. Ramsey and his associates continually spread this crap on FB and probably elsewhere. 

https://libertarianheathen.com/?s=frankel

The slanderous lies from Ramsey were tit for tat retaliation – he said so himself, and offered a reciprocal unpublishing – because I reported the news that his then buddy Augustus Invictus, one of the Charlottesville organizers, had been accused of a pattern of domestic violence, kidnapping and rape by his ex-fiancee. I was simply reporting the news, not taking a stance, except in the comments; and even there I was careful to separate what I knew to be fact from my opinion and what others alleged. Furthermore, I reposted accurate reporting about Ryan Ramsey and his associates previously published elsewhere. His response was to

1) Publish lies about me, Warren Redlich and IPR, linked above

2) Offer to take them down if we took down our own reporting

3) Threaten to sic law enforcement on me for supposedly being a terrorist and threatening his wife, none of which is even remotely true. Specifically, he said he had contacted the Florida Department of Law Enforcement electronic crimes division and was planning to meet with the FBI and tell them that I am a terrorist (a preposterous lie) and that I threatened his then pregnant wife (another absurd fiction). 

4) His pal Invictus broached the possibility of suing us (but said he wasn’t doing that, at least at that time)

5) Invictus later issued a non-specific threat against me and a few other people saying we will “get what is coming to us.” Among many other people he and his associates have threatened.

Ryan Ramsey’s article is in fact full of attacks, slander and lies. Looking at just the headline alone: I am not editor in chief at IPR and in fact there is no such position. I am not a terrorist, and that is a slanderous claim. Moving beyond the headline I address numerous inaccurate statements, slanders, libel and downright lies in Ramsey’s article in a series of comments starting at http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/libertarians-united-against-fascism-write-open-letter-to-lnc-starchild-responds/#comment-1581189 and continuing over a couple of dozen comments.

To take one egregious example, Ramsey continually asserts that I had something to do with killing a dog. I did not, and while he is not the first person to spread this lie it is nevertheless a lie and he is not repeating it as a statement by someone else but rather as something he knows to be true, unlike the statements about him by others that I have published. There are many similar falsehoods throughout the article which I addressed in IPR comments.

Others who have been threatened by Invictus, Ramsey and friends include Tom Knapp 

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/07/paul-stanton-perhaps-working-with-white-nationalists-is-not-the-best-approach/#comment-1636145

"To date, twice when the AI combination pity party / threat machine got cranked up and I was involved in direct back and forth, I escalated from Condition Yellow to Condition Orange. This involves, among other things, making my family aware of a possible threat, ensuring that at least one person in the household in addition to myself has a loaded firearm near to hand at all times, and paying special attention to street traffic in my neighborhood (which is very low traffic so anything unusual stands out, and I have a nearby neighbor who knows to call if anything looks suspicious as well). "

Frankel again) The email I was forwarded from Invictus says in part "Stanton, Tesky, Wyllie, Marchetti, and Frankel are all directly responsible for that, because the babysitter called the police based off the bullshit criminal allegations being pushed by those five. It was the ‘news’ story that caused the babysitter to call the police. Fourth and final: It never crossed my mind that Joe (Wendt) had anything to do with that, but if I find out that he was involved with Stanton or Tesky or Marchetti in pushing those criminal allegations, I will hang him with my own fucking hands. That entire situation is something so outrageous that I am not even discussing it. Each and every person who was involved or had knowledge of it will get what is coming to them."

And in fact, all of the people named, myself included, are among many others who have reported being threatened by Invictus, Ramsey and their circle of associates. Ramsey is still neck deep in it even now that Invictus has become a Republican. 

Ramsey is allegedly gloating about Stanton's resignation in these facebook groups, among others: 

Kekistan

The Right Way: No Cucks, Only Kek

Republic of Kekistan

@The Deplorables and Basement Dwellers for Trump

Anti-SJW 

Anti-SJW Pinochet's Beach Party 

The ex-fiancee of Invictus, Ms. Rice, and her friend Ms. Brown along with others they knew also reported being threatened and intimidated by Invictus, Ramsey et al. 

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/joe-wendt-for-us-senate-new-lp-of-florida-chair-undermines-libertarian-principles-in-favor-of-white-nationalists/

....

Libertarian Party Candidate for U.S. Senate, Joe Wendt, condemns LPF Chair, Marcos Miralles, for pursuing a policy that promotes white nationalists within the Libertarian Party of Florida. “Mr. Miralles has appointed known white nationalists to leadership positions.”

...

“I have been threatened with physical violence by white nationalist supporters of Miralles,” said Wendt. “

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/07/paul-stanton-perhaps-working-with-white-nationalists-is-not-the-best-approach/  see embedded links in original"

We are losing good members, and the trust of the public, due to the elevation of leaders in extremist hate groups to our party leadership.  We need a new approach.  Local libertarian-leaning politicians and voters associate us with far-right extremists.  As of yesterday, my county no longer has a full slate of candidates for the Florida House.   One of the Libertarian candidates I drafted will now unfortunately be running NPA.  Yesterday, we also lost our incoming Rules Committee chair.  Previously, both our former gubernatorial nominee and our senatorial nominee (prior to me) have resigned their LPF memberships, among countless other Libertarian activists and volunteers.  A member of my 2016 Senate campaign ended her participation with the party, because her employer forbids associations with members of extremist hate groups advocating for violence. A single friend (who ceased her participation after receiving death threats) has reported that no fewer than 30 of her acquaintances have withdrawn from Libertarian Party activism due to risks to themselves and their reputations.

During my US Senate campaign, I never expected the situation that unfolded.  I expected the personal attacks, but I never expected racist fantasies about my mother, posting of personal information about members of my family, or the violent threats and sexual harassment targeting my supporters and members of my campaign.  Last month, after I introduced a motion (which was killed) to remove Florida’s member of the Libertarian Party Platform Committee for his racist statements, I was accused of wanting to kill all white people, in a “white genocide” conspiracy theory.  And now today, there have been threats that the militant hate group the American Guardmay be waiting for me in the parking lot, or harassing county party meetings.  We must have higher standards for our party leadership!

Sadly, these are common intimidation tactics among white nationalists, and there are several other victims throughout Florida.  This behavior cannot be accepted.  We cannot continue to elevate these people.  Libertarianism stands for maximum freedom for everyone, universally. We dishonor ourselves and our party by enabling liars with wildly divergent philosophies, who stand immediately adjacent to neo-Nazis, white nationalists, fascists,organized criminal syndicates, and domestic terrorists.

From the comments:

1. StarchildJuly 22, 2017 at 09:26

   Joe, do you know which individuals were shouting “white power” at the state convention? Is there video evidence of this? I would hope those individuals are identified and ostracized, and that other Libertarians will make clear to them that there is no room for such racism in the LP. That is not what we are about. If individuals who seek to act in such a manner leave the party, that is not a loss for us but a gain.

2. 
   

3. Joe WendtJuly 22, 2017 at 12:10

   Starchild,

   The individuals in question are supports of the current LPF Chair. Although Augustus Invictus, the most prominent of the White Nationalists, has left the party, unfortunately other less prominent White Nationalists are not [only -p] remaining active in the LPF, the Chair is actually giving them positions of authority.

Screenshot of Ramsey threatening to knock Wendt’s teeth out and saying he may have an “accident”

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/received_10159060778305274.png

paulieJuly 23, 2017 at 12:04

Again, it’s not about Joe. Yes Ramsey threatened Joe, but he also threatened many other people, as has Invictus and their other buddies. There are numerous sources for that, including me. Yes, Ramsey has spread bullshit about me. I think he is still doing it although I haven’t checked lately. Did he know it to be false or did he just repeat what other people said? Well, he couldn’t have known it to be true since it was not true and he did not say “so and so says” he just repeated things as if they were facts and added new ones such as the bullshit about me being a terrorist and member of a terrorist groups and the bullshit about me making threats against his wife. And again, these are just examples just as the other examples in Stanton’s article are only examples.

The real issue is that there is an ongoing pattern as reported by many different people of Invictus, Ramsey and their circle of friends issuing threats, spreading lies .. to and about many different people .. and maintaining ongoing close associations with multiple white supremacist groups and violent groups and individuals.

....

Ramsey says “You were awful meek last night punk. Ill see you soon though and well see how mouthy you are” which is clearly physical intimidation. Joe is talking shit on the internet but Ramsey says he will not do it in person. Why not? Clearly due to threat of physical violence. Ramsey follows this up with “Id be more concerned with the teeth in your mouth at this point joe. Your dental plan good?” which in the context of his earlier statement is not exactly a very veiled threat. If he was genuinely concerned about Joe slipping and falling due to being drunk, which is laughable in the context of the conversation, he would not have made the threat so specific.

And the larger context of course is that there have been many other threats, to many other people, myself as well as this publication (IPR) included.

Joe WendtJuly 23, 2017 at 13:55

To Andy,

I have contacted the police. Since it has not progressed beyond Facebook, they told me to block him and contact them again if he continues the harassing and threatening behavior. They will be called if he threatens me again.

paulieJuly 23, 2017 at 14:19

Also, if all of these if all of these violent threats have been made, why hasn’t anyone gone to jail? Has anyone even gotten a restraining order?

Don’t be naive. Threats are not always made in a verifiable, provable form. I’ve received plenty of threats over the years, including death threats, and I have never felt the urge to go to the cops about it. What the fuck are they going to do? While they conduct their half assed investigation I may get killed or injured or whatever else. Or someone else around me.

And one of the people that has been threatened by Invictus, Ramsey and friends made a good point. This person said that Ramsey has known contacts in law enforcement and that there are known ties between many members of law enforcement and white supremacist groups such as the ones Ramsey and Invictus have a lot of ties to. So reporting anything to law enforcement may actually be cutting your own throat if you get threatened by these assholes.

FL: Augustus Invictus campaigns in front of white nationalist skinhead music banner  http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2015/12/fl-augustus-invictus-campaigns-in-front-of-white-nationalist-skinhead-music-banner/  Note: Ramsey also frequently associates with that same banner to this day. "Rock Against Communism" may sound like something that libertarians would agree with, but in reality it's a well-known neo-nazi front organization that no "former" white supremacist (as Ramsey claims to be) would have any association with. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Against_Communism

The Rock Against Communism movement originated in the United Kingdom in late 1978 with far right activists associated with the National Front (NF).^[4] It was intended to counter the Rock Against Racism organisation.^[4] The first RAC concert was in Leeds, England in 1978, featuring the Nazi punk bands The Dentists and The Ventz.^[5] RAC held one concert in 1979 and another in spring 1983, which was headlined by Skrewdriver, a white power rock band led by Ian Stuart Donaldson. After that, RAC concerts were held more often. They were often headlined by Skrewdriver and featured other white power bands, such as Skullhead and No Remorse. In the mid-1980s, summer concerts were often held at the Suffolk home of Edgar Griffin, a Conservative Party activist^[6] and father of Nick Griffin, an NF organiser who later became the national chair of the British National Party. By the late 1980s, the RAC name had given way to the White Noise Club (another NF-based group), and later Blood and Honour, which was set up by Donaldson when they fell out with the NF leadership.^[4] As hardcore punk music became more popular in the 1990s and 2000s, many white power bands took on a more hardcore-influenced sound.

Note that Ryan Ramsey continues to proudly wave the "Rock against communism" banner. 

Chuck Moulton: ‘LP conventions, avoid alt-right / white supremacist event speakers’   http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/05/chuck-moulton-lp-conventions-avoid-alt-right-white-supremacist-event-speakers/

More background: 

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/alexandria-brown-response-to-ryan-ramsey-and-timeline-of-events/

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/update-on-rape-assault-kidnapping-and-witness-tampering-allegations-against-augustus-invictus/

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/update-on-augustus-invictus-criminal-allegations-and-retraction-of-censure-from-florida-lp-possible-disaffiliation-by-lnc-floated/

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/david-colborne-augustus-sol-invictus-is-not-welcome-in-my-state/

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/knppster-were-going-to-shut-it-down/

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/04/knapp-replace-lp-of-florida-exec-comm-and-bylaws/

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/paul-stanton-lp-florida-chair-marcos-miralles-must-resign/ :

Marcos Miralles began his race for Chair of the LPF with the support of Augustus Sol Invictusand Ryan Ramsey, both leaders in white supremacist groups, including the American Guard.  (The American Guard was one of the groups present in Charlottesville last weekend.)  Invictus was also a featured speaker at the Charlottesville white supremacist rally.  The support has not been one-sided.  Last year, Marcos Miralles provided a town hall for Invictus (as part of a campaign to stir up drama during the primary), the pictures from which are still used by the Miami Herald to associate our party with Invictus.  Additionally, he proudly displayed Ryan Ramsey’s endorsement on his website and appointed Ryan Ramsey to our Legislative Review Committee.  There is no place for white supremacy in the Libertarian Party of Florida.

Thankfully, there was a recent press release condemning the events in Charlottesville.  Unfortunately, Marcos Miralles has refused to condemn the white supremacists within our party, or recant his previous support.  Instead, he insists that he will “work with everybody” and has dismissed worries about white supremacists using our party to support their platform as “non sense,” despite the support of the previously-mentioned Libertarians, and despite the Libertarian Party of Florida’s representative to the Libertarian Party platform committee, Frank Caprio.  Caprio regularly makes very racist comments, including quotes white supremacist Bob Whitaker. I physically cringed when I read Marcos write: “The Libertarian Party of Florida will forever remain the safest home for all of those that fight for civil rights.”  As one of the Libertarian victims of violent threats and harassment (a Muslim mother of biracial children) stated, “The Libertarian Party was not a safe haven for me and many others like me.  It should be, by principle. […] But that’s not the present day reality.”  Sadly, she ended her participation with the party after concerns with the safety of her family. When she reached out to Miralles, she was ignored and blocked on social media.

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/05/knapp-dickey-cover-2017-libertarian-party-of-florida-convention/ http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/05/knapp-dickey-cover-2017-libertarian-party-of-florida-convention/

There were people yelling white power. Larry Sharpe went on an alt-right vlog by Ryan Ramsey called the Mad American Network. That group was with Invictus in Harrisburg, PA and at least one member, Dave Martel, was seen sieg heiling there. Invictus chased someone out of a courtesy suite with threats of violence. Invictus was then pushing Paul Stanton trying to pick a fight. There was loud applause of his speech where he hijacked our convention for five minutes, then just bragged about it…

…our gubernatorial candidate denied Stanton a mic for a privileged motion, so that he could procedurally kill a pro-immigration platform plank without letting it be read.

Thomas Knapp lost an ad hoc election to the LP platform committee to a “constitutional conservative” who once told me, “anti-racist is code for anti-white,” Frank Caprio. He’s from the LP of Orange County (Orlando area, same as Invictus -p).

Oh, and by the way – no pretend antifa protesters showed up, of course.

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/09/paul-frankel-why-libertarians-need-to-denounce-the-alt-right-and-white-nationalists-and-dont-need-to-worry-about-libertarian-socialists-and-antifa/

http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/lsla-2017-physically-removed-so-to-speak-making-the-lp-inhospitable-to-the-alt-right-and-other-nazis/

I'm sure that's more than enough for now, but there's plenty more. Feel free to email or call 205-534-1622 to discuss, and forward wherever or whenever you wish. 

Paul Frankel 

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[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I basically agree.  

The "basically," by the way, is that I don't find 'far' all that useful, as in far-right or far-left.  I don't think the problem is distance, I think they're actually distinct.  I haven't worked out a full theory yet, but here's the one I'm playing with:  we can identify three major affiliations (conservative, liberal, libertarian).  The versions of all of them we're used to (i.e. Romney and Macron for right and left, respectively) are products of the modern, post-tribal, civilized world.  The first two, though, have "shadow versions" that are not part of the modern world: the pre-modern right, and the post-modern left.  These aren't more extreme than the non-shadow versions, just different - in fact, each form has its extremists and its moderates.  Libertarianism, on the other hand, has no shadow version - it simply can't exist without the basic assumptions of the modern world.  We can easily imagine extreme conservatives who are, nonetheless, modern: George W. Bush, perhaps, might be an example.  Likewise, we can imagine people who hold the ethnic-nationalist ideas of the "alt-right" in a moderate form.

I think we're seeing, left and right, a revolt against modernity, and, as part of that, against freedom, individuality, and the scientific method.  I think there still exist modern forms of both, though, and each needs to have its internal fight.  All of us will be better off if the modern forms win.

Trying to view everything as a matter of extremes produces confusing outcomes.  It leaves people unable to explain, for instance, why so many "far-right" people hate Christianity, and regard it (or all forms except the orthodox, in many cases) as a Jewish-Arab mongol religion - preferring such religions as Odinism, the "true" white religion.  (According to Carroll Quigley, Western civilization grew out of the Caananite and Classical civilizations, while Orthodox civilization grew out of Classical and Minoan civilizations.  He wrote that to explain cultural differences during the Cold War, but the ideas haven't gone away - see the second Charlottesville idiocy, where the chant was "Russia is our friend.")

Joshua A. Katz

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In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Har...@LP.org

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Interestingly enough, that sounds kind of bigoted.  

I largely chose to ignore these people that are being talked about.  Guess someone will accuse me of having blinders on. It's not that, I just don't put a spotlight on them and say "lookeee here"...this dumb drama shit only becomes a big issue when someone starts jumping up and down screaming about it. Kinda like this email that was sent here.

Disassociating from people means you don't talk about them all day long, it means in general you don't talk about them. I chose to disassociate as much as I am able. Disassociate from individuals, don't sit here and effectively talk about disaffiliating a whole state affiliate because of a few people. 

Also, there is all this effort focused on the "Right" of the Party. The reality is the Party HAS shifted LEFT and the violence advocated by people from that position has largely been ignored.  I know I try and ignore both of them because most people will excuse their behavior etc and Me.. I have work to do. Most libertarians don't know most of this crap is happening.

People have a right to have really stupid opinions. Stopping them from that might be considered bigotry on the basis of the definition.  If you engage in "intolerance toward those holding different opinions", even if those opinions advocate for intolerance then.. that kind of is the definition of bigotry. Irony, Irony, Irony.

I look in the mirror and the dictionary a lot.

If you are not ready to make a motion to disaffiliate Florida. It might be time to shut up.

Daniel Hayes

LNC At Large Member

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 25, 2017, at 4:15 PM, Ken Moellman <k...@moellman.com> wrote:

There is absolutely no room for bigotry of any kind in the libertarian movement. It is wholly incompatible with our philosophy.

On Oct 25, 2017 4:14 PM, "David Demarest" <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I would add that violence, bigotry and identitarianism go hand in hand with collectivism, authoritarianism and institutionalism. This brouhaha is largely an institutional loyalty battle dominated by destructive group-think.

Perhaps Libertarianism can avoid this institutional quicksand by shifting our focus to inspiration and empowerment of the individual.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

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[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I agree that a disaffiliation investigation motion would open a can of worms. Perhaps the existing motion calling for a resolution is the wiser choice. However, it is a catch-22. How can we justify the resolution if we do not do the necessary due diligence investigation?

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

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Cell:      402-981-6469

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1.     StarchildJuly 22, 2017 at 09:26

Joe, do you know which individuals were shouting “white power” at the state convention? Is there video evidence of this? I would hope those individuals are identified and ostracized, and that other Libertarians will make clear to them that there is no room for such racism in the LP. That is not what we are about. If individuals who seek to act in such a manner leave the party, that is not a loss for us but a gain.

2.      

3.     Joe WendtJuly 22, 2017 at 12:10

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There are TWO remedies to whatever ails or doesn't ail Florida.

One is we disaffiliate them. The other is we STFU and let the members of the Libertarian Party of Florida have a convention and elect new leadership. OH WAIT, they did that...yet the same bullshit keeps getting recycled.  There may or may not be truth to it but that's for LPF to work out. IF we think things are so bad down there then we need to disaffiliate. 

One of the aforementioned former LPF candidates  decided in 2016 that he had to WARN the people about someone running for Supreme Overlord or some other such office that they had no chance of winning.  It made International news. IT also got the person the people were being "warned" about more supporters and donations.  Funny how even "bad" publicity works.

Meanwhile, LPF At Large Member, Alison Foxall is running for state representative for the Fla House.  She currently serves on an Ad Hoc LNC committee with myself and others. Should we kick her off the committee because of all this?  Anybody that thinks we should is an idiot.

This stupid romper room discussion does NOT ONE positive thing to help her get elected or help any of the good candidates running for office in Florida.  I guess I need to bump up a donation for her up the chain of my over worked dance card.

If you are unhappy with how Florida is running, move there and fix it. 

If NOT, maybe we should investigate Michigan and Arizona and some other states as well. OR NOT.

Can we just stop it?

Daniel Hayes 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 25, 2017, at 8:19 PM, David Demarest <dpdem...@centurylink.net> wrote:

I agree that a disaffiliation investigation motion would open a can of worms. Perhaps the existing motion calling for a resolution is the wiser choice. However, it is a catch-22. How can we justify the resolution if we do not do the necessary due diligence investigation?

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

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From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-busine...@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Katz

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<Untitled attachment 01224.txt>

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I agree with Ken.  And the RR from that area gave their input.  I can tell you no Region 1 state would welcome this interference.  

So pre-empttively since we seem so eager to get involved in affiliates - this RR says don't mess with Region 1 states.  They handle their own business.

I'm hoping Oregon gets on mended terms with National.  This isn't the way to show states we learned our lesson from that mess.  Their Board voted and unless we think the whole of that leadership are secret nazis then we have no right or authority to be second-guessing their decision for their state.

I routinely get complaints about such and such going on here and there.  I listen, tell them their rights, and say it is for their state to handle.  Wes brilliant release said what we needed to.  I wish we would say the same to the violent left.  Violence against persons and property is unacceptable.  Bigotry and identity collectivism of all kinds is unacceptable.  

-Caryn Ann

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ken Moellman <k...@moellman.com> wrote:

A disaffiliation motion is way too extreme.

I think the statement made by either Wes or Nick - I forget who made it - about racism and whatnot being not welcome in the party was enough from LP National.  Disaffiliation would take a serious infraction, IMO.  That a party has internal issues is nothing new and nothing to get involved with.

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:19 PM, David Demarest <dpdem...@centurylink.net> wrote:

I agree that a disaffiliation investigation motion would open a can of worms. Perhaps the existing motion calling for a resolution is the wiser choice. However, it is a catch-22. How can we justify the resolution if we do not do the necessary due diligence investigation?

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

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Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

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If there is clear evidence of (1) a current Florida LP state-level official making clearly racist statements, or clear and credible threats of violence, and (2) the Florida LP leadership being aware of this and taking no action whatsoever to condemn it or distance the Florida LP from it, I think perhaps a letter of concern from the LNC would be in order. If the Florida LP leadership offered no reasonable response to such a letter and continued to not take any remedial action, especially if it became clear that this was part of a pattern of ignoring racism or serious Non-Aggression Principle violations from state leaders, then I would be ready to entertain a motion to disaffiliate. 

But – and I confess I have not read all the links and background on this – I'm not sure even the first condition stated above has been met. My personal belief is that Ryan Ramsey likely does hold bigoted white supremacist type views, but while the the evidence for this may be cumulatively compelling (walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, etc.), it also seems to be largely circumstantial. I looked at the American Guard website for instance, and didn't find a "smoking gun" of explicitly racist material. Now I do think Ramsey's comments about LP chair Nick Sarwark are reprehensible and without merit. A sample (more at http://archive.is/EMZPY#selection-233.0-233.110):

"Nick Sarwark, National Chairman of the Libertarian Party, is the poster boy for the Cultural Marxist idiocy that keeps us relegated to single digit election returns... Any question as to whether Mr. Sarwark was a lover of liberty, or a Cultural Marxist attempting to hold back the advance of the  Libertarian Party, were answered when he made national news repeating lies about Milo Yiannopoulos, subject of the  violence in Berkley, when he insinuated bloodshed to stop free speech was 'understandable'... For those who did not attend the National Convention last spring in Orlando, let me tell you how Nick Sarwark was re-elected as LP Chairman. He collected a group of loyalists around himself to feign running as opposition. Then at the last minute, on the Convention floor, they dropped their candidacy and threw their support to the man trying to do the Weimar Republic over, as if the Communists will win this time. This is why many are starting to  refer to him as 'Nazi Nick', despite his Jewish religion. His ignorance of history is astounding, especially considering his heritage. It is an ignorance common among the products of compulsory government education camps, but unacceptable for anyone wishing to lead the third largest political party in the greatest nation on the planet. The smug manner in which the leftist infection tries to paint President Trump as Hitler is the crowning jewel of their  ignorance. It is time for a quick history lesson on Germany prior to World War Two. Trump is not Hitler, but people like Sarwark are ushering the next Hitler in... Behold Nick Sarwark, who claims to lead the party of individual freedom, as he ushers his own Jewish people toward the boxcars. Nazi Nick, the ultimate in self hatred."

Even if the rumor about Milo Yiannopoulis planning to "out" undocumented students during his speech at UC Berkeley, which Yiannopoulis ultimately did not do and denied intending to do, was false – I'm not sure it was; I wouldn't be surprised if Yiannopoulis, via associates, was the source of the rumor, even if he never intended to carry out any such action – the point is that if student protesters heard the rumor and sincerely believed it, there's an argument to be made that their use of violence to stop him from speaking arguably was, to the best of their knowledge at the time, a legitimate defensive measure designed to prevent people being forcibly kidnapped and deported by the State. I'm not sure Nick intended to go that far; the word "understandable" as he used it is somewhat ambiguous and does not necessarily imply approval. 

Regardless, any LP member whose views are so badly skewed as to publish a written public article condemning as solidly libertarian a party leader as the current LP national chair as a "cultural Marxist" and among those who is "usher(ing) his own Jewish people toward the boxcars", is not somebody I personally want serving in the party leadership. Coupled with the threats that Paul Stanton and Paul Frankel report Ramsey making against them and against members of Stanton's family, and Ramsey's connections to groups like Rock Against Communism and the American Guard, if I sat on the Florida LP Executive Committee and had been voting, I believe I would have voted to remove Ramsey from that body if such action is consistent with the Florida LP's bylaws. But I don't know whether there was a bylaws issue, or why the ExCom majority voted down Paul Stanton's motion for removal. My suspicion that they may have made what I believe to be a bad decision isn't enough for me to support the LNC formally weighing in or taking action vis-a-vis the Florida LP, short of the conditions I describe in the first paragraph above being met. Short of removal, I don't know what other steps, if any, they have taken, or may yet take. 

But if the LNC does not make any direct formal response to the Florida situation, this still leaves the question of what else we can do with regard to the broader issue of ethno-nationalism seeping into the Libertarian Party. It's been pointed out that the LNC has recently issued a strong statement against racism and bigotry; the value of issuing another such statement at this time seems dubious. However while we've recently addressed the "ethno" aspect of the ethno-nationalist problem, I don't think we've adequately addressed nationalism, which is much more pervasive.

Nationalism is itself, I believe, a form of bigotry akin to racism. It is an anti-individualist philosophy which, translated into government policy, results in virtually every national government in the world wrongfully discriminating against people on the basis of innate characteristics beyond their control (where they were born or who their parents were). It also tends to lead people to take un-libertarian positions, such as being willing to initiate force against immigrants, supporting protectionism, and accepting various rights violations in the name of "national security". Nationalism can also serve as a cover for racism, because nationalist and racist views often dovetail when it comes to issues like immigration, racial profiling in the name of "national security", the U.S. government killing people in other countries, etc. But despite being as repugnant as racism, nationalism has so far largely gotten a pass from society including from many (L)ibertarians. If we are serious about discouraging the sort of views that are disrupting the Florida LP, the LNC issuing a strong statement against nationalism seems like a very good idea, and I would support such a resolution. I think we should also pay more attention to how our messaging and other practices (e.g. use of the American flag) can subtly legitimize and reinforce nationalism in the party.

Love & Liberty,

                                   ((( starchild )))

At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee

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                                 (415) 625-FREE

                                    @StarchildSF

On Oct 25, 2017, at 6:14 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

I agree with Ken.  And the RR from that area gave their input.  I can tell you no Region 1 state would welcome this interference.  

So pre-empttively since we seem so eager to get involved in affiliates - this RR says don't mess with Region 1 states.  They handle their own business.

I'm hoping Oregon gets on mended terms with National.  This isn't the way to show states we learned our lesson from that mess.  Their Board voted and unless we think the whole of that leadership are secret nazis then we have no right or authority to be second-guessing their decision for their state.

I routinely get complaints about such and such going on here and there.  I listen, tell them their rights, and say it is for their state to handle.  Wes brilliant release said what we needed to.  I wish we would say the same to the violent left.  Violence against persons and property is unacceptable.  Bigotry and identity collectivism of all kinds is unacceptable.  

-Caryn Ann

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ken Moellman <k...@moellman.com> wrote:

A disaffiliation motion is way too extreme.

I think the statement made by either Wes or Nick - I forget who made it - about racism and whatnot being not welcome in the party was enough from LP National.  Disaffiliation would take a serious infraction, IMO.  That a party has internal issues is nothing new and nothing to get involved with.

On Wed, Oct 25, 2017 at 9:19 PM, David Demarest <dpdem...@centurylink.net> wrote:

I agree that a disaffiliation investigation motion would open a can of worms. Perhaps the existing motion calling for a resolution is the wiser choice. However, it is a catch-22. How can we justify the resolution if we do not do the necessary due diligence investigation?

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

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DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

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From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Katz

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In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Har...@LP.org

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I just read a "response" by Ryan Ramsey and it has all the marks of an aggressive gas lighting campaign.  After I read that letter, my "knower" knew that there are too many testimonies that ring true.  There is a very manipulative game going on.

There is definitely something very toxic going on in Florida.  I am going to be speaking to my Region 1 Chairs about this as I make my quarterly conferences with them.  

-Caryn Ann

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

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[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Daniel Hayes 

Sent from my iPhone

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-busine...@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Katz

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Har...@LP.org

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Sagely spoken once again my friend.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Larry Sharpe <lsh...@neo-sage.com> wrote:

My two cents,

Ed and Steven both say leave it alone. So, leave it alone.

They may be wrong, but the odds of them being wrong are far lower than the odds of our meddling making things worse.

On Oct 27, 2017 12:22, "David Demarest" <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Caryn Ann, there sure is a lot of smoke in Florida. It is time to stop pooh-poohing this thinly-disguised bigotry, ethno-nationalism and power-grab threat to both Florida and national Libertarianism; stop sweeping it under the rug and take a serious look at the matter.

Disagreements on the application of the NAP, while a serious matter, are understandable. Disagreements on mindless bigotry and ethno-nationalism, however, will be a malignant cancer on the LP and Libertarian movement if not addressed promptly and assertively.

I reiterate, not tolerating intolerance is NOT bigotry. Tolerance in defense of intolerance is a VICE. This should be a no-brainer to all Libertarians. Bigots and ethno-nationalist power-grabbers must not be part  of our target market. They will only use us to achieve their nefarious goals that will undermine our credibility. Like Wes and Nick, I ask pseudo-Libertarians who think otherwise to promptly take their political business elsewhere.

We can follow the lead of Nick and Wes and use the tool of voluntary individual economic and social ostracism to bring this insidious threat to a screeching halt. Disaffiliation, while a last resort, can be an effective institutional tool of economic and social ostracism, fully consistent with even a strict interpretation of the NAP, to effectively deal with this potentially lethal threat to Libertarianism.

It is time to clean this mindless evil out of the LP and Libertarian movement before it gets out of control, impacts our political agenda and undermines our heroic goal of freedom, nothing more, nothing less.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

I also agree with Ed.

 

Caryn Ann, just to make it perfectly clear, I will support an investigative motion only if requested by someone in the Florida affiliate.

 

In the meantime, I will continue to disregard political correctness, speak out against mindless bigotry at every opportunity and encourage economic and social ostracism to cope with both supremacist violence and the moral wrong of non-violent ‘bake the cake’ intolerance. State-sponsored retaliatory violence is not the answer to intolerance and just leaves the door open for state-initiated repression that we Libertarians are supposed to be fighting against.

 

There is no place for bigotry in the LP and the Libertarianism movement, regardless of whether or not specific intolerant acts violate the Non-Aggression Principle.

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:     

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[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Larry I don't disagree with you.  That has been my position.  And unless we want to disaffiliate it's like pulling a gun.  Don't do that unless you intend to shoot.

I just wanted to be clear that I've been reading material, also comparing it with my past experiences, and then that "response" by Ramsey and I'm not buying that there isn't a problem.  What gets done must be spearheaded by Florida Libertarians. 

I'm not fooled IOW.  And honestly I came to the realization of how toxic this may be, particularly to women in the Party, who would leave silently.  I asked myself if I would stick around that.  The answer is not an unequivocal yes.

I stand by my comments that there is a bullying and threatening issue with the far left as well.  There was a threat to bring ANTIFA to our convention.  There is condemnation of the idea of property ownership and we don't have to look too far into history to see where that leads.  And violence has been discussed.  I see it too.  And believe we have a shameful reluctance to call that what it is.  It's not a matter of equivalency or comparing thresholds of damage.  It's about defending libertarian ideas.

The fact is that these two sides feed on each other.  The existence of one gives the other propaganda.  

We must continue to keep on the northward libertarian route.

But make no mistake- there IS an ethno-nationalist issue in Florida.  

Read Ramsey's response.  If you do not see manipulative gas lighting then you lack discernment.

If all we can do is personally say to those complaining- yes I see what you are saying.  You are not imagining things- that is valuable.

We are a limited power body.  We can resist the urge to think we can or should intervene in everything.  But that does not mean not seeing the thing.  I see it.  

-Caryn Ann

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

--

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Ed and Steve, thank you.  Keep up the good fight.

-Caryn Ann

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:52 AM David Demarest <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thoughtless memes will not resolve the mess in Florida or the broader threat to the LP and the Libertarian movement. Recent Libertarian events have had to take into consideration how to deal with ethno-nationalist disruptions emmenating from Florida. I agree that in the long run their behavior is self-defeating. In the short run, however, they are making life miserable for some Libertarians. I suggest we move beyond memes and take a serious look at the matter.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

On Oct 27, 2017 12:28 PM, "Daniel Hayes" <daniel...@icloud.com> wrote:

Daniel Hayes 

Sent from my iPhone

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-busine...@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Katz

--

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Prediction: those who speak out here will be targeted.

Keeps others from speaking out.

-Caryn Ann 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 12:24 PM David Demarest <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree that there are limits to what the LNC can do in this matter. What the LNC can do is inspire and empower individual Libertarians to be fully informed with a full set of principles and accurate facts so they individually use voluntary economic and social ostracism in an appropriate, just and effective manner to deal with thinly-disguised authoritarian threats exemplified by the nonsense in Florida.

Physical threats are a serious matter that cuts to the core of what Libertarianism stands for. Political correctness and ridicule of those who take a stand against bigotry is not a principled answer.

Regardless, threats or no threats, memes or no memes, I will speak out at every opportunity against mindless bigotry that goes hand-in-hand with authoritarianism and nationalism, as I am doing now. We all have a choice on how we deal with ethno-nationalism. I hope for the sake of the LP and the Libertarian movement that we individual Libertarians choose wisely.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

On Oct 27, 2017 12:52 PM, "Caryn Ann Harlos" <carynan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Larry I don't disagree with you.  That has been my position.  And unless we want to disaffiliate it's like pulling a gun.  Don't do that unless you intend to shoot.

I just wanted to be clear that I've been reading material, also comparing it with my past experiences, and then that "response" by Ramsey and I'm not buying that there isn't a problem.  What gets done must be spearheaded by Florida Libertarians. 

I'm not fooled IOW.  And honestly I came to the realization of how toxic this may be, particularly to women in the Party, who would leave silently.  I asked myself if I would stick around that.  The answer is not an unequivocal yes.

I stand by my comments that there is a bullying and threatening issue with the far left as well.  There was a threat to bring ANTIFA to our convention.  There is condemnation of the idea of property ownership and we don't have to look too far into history to see where that leads.  And violence has been discussed.  I see it too.  And believe we have a shameful reluctance to call that what it is.  It's not a matter of equivalency or comparing thresholds of damage.  It's about defending libertarian ideas.

The fact is that these two sides feed on each other.  The existence of one gives the other propaganda.  

We must continue to keep on the northward libertarian route.

But make no mistake- there IS an ethno-nationalist issue in Florida.  

Read Ramsey's response.  If you do not see manipulative gas lighting then you lack discernment.

If all we can do is personally say to those complaining- yes I see what you are saying.  You are not imagining things- that is valuable.

We are a limited power body.  We can resist the urge to think we can or should intervene in everything.  But that does not mean not seeing the thing.  I see it.  

-Caryn Ann

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:32 AM Daniel Hayes <daniel...@icloud.com> wrote:

Sagely spoken once again my friend.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Larry Sharpe <lsh...@neo-sage.com> wrote:

My two cents,

Ed and Steven both say leave it alone. So, leave it alone.

They may be wrong, but the odds of them being wrong are far lower than the odds of our meddling making things worse.

On Oct 27, 2017 12:22, "David Demarest" <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Caryn Ann, there sure is a lot of smoke in Florida. It is time to stop pooh-poohing this thinly-disguised bigotry, ethno-nationalism and power-grab threat to both Florida and national Libertarianism; stop sweeping it under the rug and take a serious look at the matter.

Disagreements on the application of the NAP, while a serious matter, are understandable. Disagreements on mindless bigotry and ethno-nationalism, however, will be a malignant cancer on the LP and Libertarian movement if not addressed promptly and assertively.

I reiterate, not tolerating intolerance is NOT bigotry. Tolerance in defense of intolerance is a VICE. This should be a no-brainer to all Libertarians. Bigots and ethno-nationalist power-grabbers must not be part  of our target market. They will only use us to achieve their nefarious goals that will undermine our credibility. Like Wes and Nick, I ask pseudo-Libertarians who think otherwise to promptly take their political business elsewhere.

We can follow the lead of Nick and Wes and use the tool of voluntary individual economic and social ostracism to bring this insidious threat to a screeching halt. Disaffiliation, while a last resort, can be an effective institutional tool of economic and social ostracism, fully consistent with even a strict interpretation of the NAP, to effectively deal with this potentially lethal threat to Libertarianism.

It is time to clean this mindless evil out of the LP and Libertarian movement before it gets out of control, impacts our political agenda and undermines our heroic goal of freedom, nothing more, nothing less.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-busine...@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Katz

--

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Caryn Ann,

I've often felt that Augustus Invictus was bullied by libertarians. Do you think he was bullied?

Wes Benedict, Executive Director
Libertarian National Committee, Inc.
1444 Duke St., Alexandria, VA 22314
(202) 333-0008 ext. 232, wes.be...@lp.org
facebook.com/libertarians @LPNational
Join the Libertarian Party at: http://lp.org/membership

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Absolutely not.  

Strong opposition is not bullying.

And is not relevant here.  AI could have been the most persecuted person the world and this situation would still be a problem.

I'm not particularly interested in what about thus, what about this, what about this.

Libertarians are often so loathe to judge anything that we become complicit in harms done to people in weaker positions.

We must stop that if we are going to model a free world in which the many are not lambs to the slaughter.

I find it interesting that the discussions keeps turning to me.  It's not relevant.  And only serves to have others who say "well crap I don't want to deal with that" silent.  My many faults don't include being silent.

-Caryn Ann 

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Go to this article:

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 1:10 PM, David Demarest <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wes, regardless of whether Invictus and his poorly chosen colleagues were bullied, physical threats are not to be tolerated. Note that I am not threatening that misguided cartel with physical violence. What I am saying as one individual is that if they will not listen to reason and will not cease and desist their immoral behavior, I will identify their behavior for what it is and refuse to deal with them economically and socially. 

That is how Rosa Parks and her friends dealt rather effectively with bullying. She sat an example of peaceful civil disobedience that eventually succeeded through voluntary economic boycott ostracism.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

On Oct 27, 2017 1:54 PM, "David Demarest" <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

😀 - and the world is a far better place because you are not silent!

_______________________________________________
Lnc-business mailing list
Lnc-bu...@hq.lp.org
http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

_______________________________________________
Lnc-business mailing list
Lnc-bu...@hq.lp.org
http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

That article is the best thing I have read on this topic.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

I put a lot of thought into that meme. I also thing it is about as likely to solve the issue as loquacious hand wringing. This is a matter for LPF to work out.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:51 PM, David Demarest <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thoughtless memes will not resolve the mess in Florida or the broader threat to the LP and the Libertarian movement. Recent Libertarian events have had to take into consideration how to deal with ethno-nationalist disruptions emmenating from Florida. I agree that in the long run their behavior is self-defeating. In the short run, however, they are making life miserable for some Libertarians. I suggest we move beyond memes and take a serious look at the matter.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

On Oct 27, 2017 12:28 PM, "Daniel Hayes" <daniel...@icloud.com> wrote:

Daniel Hayes 

Sent from my iPhone

 

Thoughts?

 

~David Pratt

 

May 25-27 2018 Omaha Roads to Freedom Un-Convention

 

Freedom, Nothing More, Nothing Less

 

~David Pratt Demarest

Roads to Freedom Foundation, Founder

LNC Region 6 Representative (IA, IL, MN, MO, ND, NE, WI)

LSLA Vice-Chair

LPNE State Central Committee, Secretary

LPRC Board Member, Nebraska State Coordinator

David.D...@LP.org

Secr...@LPNE.org

DPDem...@centurylink.net

DPrattD...@gmail.com

Cell:      402-981-6469

Home: 402-493-0873

 

From: Lnc-business [mailto:lnc-business-bounces@hq.lp.org] On Behalf Of Joshua Katz

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 1:52 PM
To: lnc-bu...@hq.lp.org
Subject: [Lnc-business] Fwd: [Lnc-votes] Resignation From LPF

Thank you to both Steven, Paul Frankel, and Tom Knapp for inserting much-needed facts into this discussion.  In light of these facts, I think vigilance is called for, but do not think it is appropriate, at this time, to make a relevant motion.

 

I will note, without getting into the weeds, that while I won't quibble with facts alleged about Florida, I would disagree with some of the statements made about certain national groups, or in other ways about the dangerous movement we face.  I think they are more dangerous than they've been described here, and while in the past I considered them individually dangerous, I now consider them to be an organizational threat - and a threat to the modern world which made freedom possible.  (Murray Rothbard pointed out, in 1965, that freedom was made possible by the overthrow of the Ancien Regime, and I think the pre-modern thinking on the right, and the post-modern thinking on the left, are both creating an environment where it can return.)  I consider them, at the moment, the most immediate threat to freedom in our culture, since they have organized and gone beyond being individual cranks - they now are making moves on the world of ideas, which controls the rest.  And remember that far too many people associate us with them.  The Charlottesville morons (if it brings them any comfort, I think I speak on behalf of all Jews when I say that none of us desire to be mouth-breathing bigots carrying tiki torches, so their fears about us replacing them are misplaced) used a banner which was based on the Albany Plan of Union banner - and one of the snake pieces was labeled L.  

 

In any event, as concerns Florida, I think the analysis is pretty straightforward, although the determinations are not.  Is there a problem?  I am convinced there is, and I am convinced we should not ignore it and blind ourselves to it.  Another party tried that approach, as well as "well, we'll bring them along for their votes on the things we agree about," and now is largely unable to get candidates who actually favor its basic ideas through primaries.  The next question, the crucial question, is - can the affiliate fix it?  (A related, but somewhat different question, is whether it wants to.)  I think the answer to that is yes.  There is, of course, a tipping point - a point where rather than try to fix the problem, good people simply leave, and the ability to fix the problem goes away.  And good people are, it seems clear to me, leaving.  I still do not think the tipping point has been reached, though. 

 

Joshua A. Katz

 

At-Large Representative,

Libertarian National Committee

 

 

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <travelli...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Lnc-votes] [Lnc-business] Resignation From LPF
To: "Caryn.An...@LP.org" <caryn.an...@lp.org>, Independent Political Report <independent-political-report@googlegroups.com>, "ipr...@googlegroups.com" <ipr...@googlegroups.com>, erin....@lp.org, Whitney Bilyeu <whitn...@gmail.com>, Joshua Katz <joshu...@lp.org>, David Demarest <David.D...@lp.org>, Daniel Hayes <daniel...@lp.org>, Ed Marsh <edn...@yahoo.com>, Steven Nekhaila <Steven....@gmail.com>, Starchild <sfdr...@earthlink.net>, Paul Stanton <pa...@stanton.name>

...

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

Wes,

I'm surprised to hear you say that. How do you feel Augustus Invictus was often bullied by libertarians? How do you think libertarians should have reacted to Invictus, who sought the LP's nomination for U.S. Senate, in light of, for instance, stuff like this (from http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2017/08/orlando-sentinel-goat-blood-drinking-orlando-man-had-key-billing-for-charlottesville-rally/)?

Orlando Sentinel: ‘Goat-blood drinking Orlando man had key billing for Charlottesville rally’

Excerpt from Steven Lemongello in the Orlando Sentinel by way of Cody Quirk at ATPR:

Invictus, 34, was listed as a featured marcher for the Saturday event, which was roundly condemned after marchers carried Nazi flags, performed Hitler salutes and chanted white supremacist and anti-Semitic sayings while carrying torches. He could not be reached for comment Monday.

Invictus lost the 2016 Libertarian primary for U.S. Senate in Florida to Paul Stanton, but not before state Chairman Adrian Wyllie resigned in protest. The Libertarian Party of Seminole County also disbanded and its chair, Don Menzel, resigned in protest of his candidacy. Wyllie alleged at the time Invictus wanted to lead a civil war in the country, recruit neo-Nazis to the party and supported a eugenics program.

Invictus denied he had white supremacist sympathies at the time, but the Tampa Bay Times reported Monday white nationalist leader Richard Spencer credited Invictus with writing a first draft of the “Charlottesville Statement”.

The statement, according to the Times, has tenets including, “Jews are an ethno-religious people distinct from Europeans … whites alone defined America as a European society and political order .. [and] the so-called ‘refugee crisis’ is an invasion, a war without bullets, taking place on the fields of race, religion, sex and morality.’’…

Can there be any doubt that Invictus does have white supremacist views, his denial reported above notwithstanding? In a January, 2016 letter "To the People of Europe", he writes in part (excerpted from http://independentpoliticalreport.com/2016/03/augustus-invictus-letter-to-the-people-of-europe/ ):

"We share a common bond that the millions of immigrants recently recruited to our ancestral land will never share. We, as Westerners, are brothers, though long-separated; they are foreigners being imported by your own governments to destroy the proud heritage and people of Europe...

We of European blood are European, and the soil of Europe is our land, the land of our ancestors, the land that bore our people, our civilization, our culture. Your leaders abandoned long ago their innate drive to conquer and to civilize. That was sad enough. Now all the people of Europe seem to all the world to have abandoned the primal instinct – or even the basic desire – to defend one’s home.

People of Europe, do not express regret for your history. The blood of sea-conquering Vikings and world-shaking Romans still courses through your veins. And if you saw now the faces of your ancestors before you, would you feel proud of yourself and the civilization you have worked to uphold? Or would you feel ashamed of your weakness and of the decadence we have all perpetuated?

People of Europe, do not feel shame for your blood. You have been taught to hate yourselves because of the cruelty of your ancestors, but your ancestors were marked as much for their virtues as for any vice. It was our ancestors who braved the waters and conquered distant lands, yes to obtain their gold and spices, but also to give to them civilization. Our ancestors were simultaneously the war-bringers and the light-bearers. As Nietzsche once wrote, terribleness is part of greatness...

You, the people of Europe, must do your duty, as your ancestors did centuries ago. Once more you must reclaim your lands and hold them sacred. You must defend them, and you must execute the traitors."

 

Should that kind of talk be considered acceptable from candidates or leaders of the Libertarian Party? I believe in a "big tent" in terms of letting anyone join the party, attend our events, etc. Like you I would rather engage with people and be nice to them than simply drive them away. But when it comes to holding leadership roles in the party – being candidates, delegates, or party officers or employees – I think we need to draw a line. And short of messing with the Dallas Accord agreement not to officially side with either anarchism or minarchism as the ultimate goal, we should always say clearly and unambiguously what we stand for. That should be libertarianism, not nationalism and especially not its kissing cousin ethno-nationalism. Do you disagree?

Love & Liberty,

 

                                 ((( starchild )))

At-Large Representative, Libertarian National Committee

                         RealR...@earthlink.net

                                (415) 625-FREE

                                  @StarchildSF

On Oct 27, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Wes Benedict wrote:

Caryn Ann,

I've often felt that Augustus Invictus was bullied by libertarians. Do you think he was bullied?

Wes Benedict, Executive Director
Libertarian National Committee, Inc.
1444 Duke St., Alexandria, VA 22314
(202) 333-0008 ext. 232, wes.be...@lp.org
facebook.com/libertarians @LPNational
Join the Libertarian Party at: http://lp.org/membership

On 10/27/2017 2:31 PM, Caryn Ann Harlos wrote:

Prediction: those who speak out here will be targeted.

Keeps others from speaking out.

-Caryn Ann 

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 12:24 PM David Demarest <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree that there are limits to what the LNC can do in this matter. What the LNC can do is inspire and empower individual Libertarians to be fully informed with a full set of principles and accurate facts so they individually use voluntary economic and social ostracism in an appropriate, just and effective manner to deal with thinly-disguised authoritarian threats exemplified by the nonsense in Florida.

Physical threats are a serious matter that cuts to the core of what Libertarianism stands for. Political correctness and ridicule of those who take a stand against bigotry is not a principled answer.

Regardless, threats or no threats, memes or no memes, I will speak out at every opportunity against mindless bigotry that goes hand-in-hand with authoritarianism and nationalism, as I am doing now. We all have a choice on how we deal with ethno-nationalism. I hope for the sake of the LP and the Libertarian movement that we individual Libertarians choose wisely.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

On Oct 27, 2017 12:52 PM, "Caryn Ann Harlos" <carynan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Larry I don't disagree with you.  That has been my position.  And unless we want to disaffiliate it's like pulling a gun.  Don't do that unless you intend to shoot.

I just wanted to be clear that I've been reading material, also comparing it with my past experiences, and then that "response" by Ramsey and I'm not buying that there isn't a problem.  What gets done must be spearheaded by Florida Libertarians. 

I'm not fooled IOW.  And honestly I came to the realization of how toxic this may be, particularly to women in the Party, who would leave silently.  I asked myself if I would stick around that.  The answer is not an unequivocal yes.

I stand by my comments that there is a bullying and threatening issue with the far left as well.  There was a threat to bring ANTIFA to our convention.  There is condemnation of the idea of property ownership and we don't have to look too far into history to see where that leads.  And violence has been discussed.  I see it too.  And believe we have a shameful reluctance to call that what it is.  It's not a matter of equivalency or comparing thresholds of damage.  It's about defending libertarian ideas.

The fact is that these two sides feed on each other.  The existence of one gives the other propaganda.  

We must continue to keep on the northward libertarian route.

But make no mistake- there IS an ethno-nationalist issue in Florida.  

Read Ramsey's response.  If you do not see manipulative gas lighting then you lack discernment.

If all we can do is personally say to those complaining- yes I see what you are saying.  You are not imagining things- that is valuable.

We are a limited power body.  We can resist the urge to think we can or should intervene in everything.  But that does not mean not seeing the thing.  I see it.  

-Caryn Ann

On Fri, Oct 27, 2017 at 11:32 AM Daniel Hayes <daniel...@icloud.com> wrote:

Sagely spoken once again my friend.

Daniel

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:28 PM, Larry Sharpe <lsh...@neo-sage.com> wrote:

My two cents,

Ed and Steven both say leave it alone. So, leave it alone.

They may be wrong, but the odds of them being wrong are far lower than the odds of our meddling making things worse.

On Oct 27, 2017 12:22, "David Demarest" <dprattd...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with Caryn Ann, there sure is a lot of smoke in Florida. It is time to stop pooh-poohing this thinly-disguised bigotry, ethno-nationalism and power-grab threat to both Florida and national Libertarianism; stop sweeping it under the rug and take a serious look at the matter.

Disagreements on the application of the NAP, while a serious matter, are understandable. Disagreements on mindless bigotry and ethno-nationalism, however, will be a malignant cancer on the LP and Libertarian movement if not addressed promptly and assertively.

I reiterate, not tolerating intolerance is NOT bigotry. Tolerance in defense of intolerance is a VICE. This should be a no-brainer to all Libertarians. Bigots and ethno-nationalist power-grabbers must not be part  of our target market. They will only use us to achieve their nefarious goals that will undermine our credibility. Like Wes and Nick, I ask pseudo-Libertarians who think otherwise to promptly take their political business elsewhere.

We can follow the lead of Nick and Wes and use the tool of voluntary individual economic and social ostracism to bring this insidious threat to a screeching halt. Disaffiliation, while a last resort, can be an effective institutional tool of economic and social ostracism, fully consistent with even a strict interpretation of the NAP, to effectively deal with this potentially lethal threat to Libertarianism.

It is time to clean this mindless evil out of the LP and Libertarian movement before it gets out of control, impacts our political agenda and undermines our heroic goal of freedom, nothing more, nothing less.

Thoughts?

~David Pratt Demarest

--

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Har...@LP.org

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft

_______________________________________________
Lnc-business mailing list
Lnc-bu...@hq.lp.org
http://hq.lp.org/mailman/listinfo/lnc-business_hq.lp.org

[lnc-...@hq.lp.org]

An email I sent to Region 1 Chairs.

Region 1 Chairs:

I want to give you a heads up about an issue that has developed in the Libertarian Party of Florida.  There is no action proposed, and hopefully the LPF and Florida Libertarians will straighten things out, but I didn't want you to first hear of this elsewhere, and I solicit your opinions.

Several candidates (current and former) and a past chair have made allegations that there is an issue with an attempted takeover of the LPF by ethno-nationalists with threats and intimidation made to those who dissent.  The Regional Representative for that region believes that Florida has its issues under control and there is no need for LNC action.  I have taken a look at the circumstances and firmly believe that the complaints have merit and warrant serious concern.  However, as you know, I am strongly disinclined for the National Party to interfere with any affiliate.  In fact, we cannot unless there is a situation so dire that disaffiliation is warranted.

I will be happy to speak with you on this during our quarterly conferences which I will be setting in a few weeks, and of course you can call me at any time.  If things do progress to any proposed action, I certainly want to  know the will of Region 1.  While I have hope that issues will resolve, this has been simmering for several years and can easily come to a head.

-- 

In Liberty,

Caryn Ann Harlos

Region 1 Representative, Libertarian National Committee (Alaska, Arizona, Colorado, Hawaii, Kansas, Montana, Utah, Wyoming, Washington) - Caryn.Ann. Har...@LP.org

Communications Director, Libertarian Party of Colorado

Chair, LP Historical Preservation Committee

A haiku to the Statement of Principles:

We defend your rights

And oppose the use of force

Taxation is theft