To synchronize system time witn NTP-server with no winter time shift whole year - how to?
Strong and Humble
Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time
(without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system
time with a ntp-server.
How I can do this?
Thank You for Your time.
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Tzafrir Cohen
> Good day.
>
> Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
> no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time
> (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system
> time with a ntp-server.
>
> How I can do this?
This is a non-issue. The NTP server should always use GMT. Your system
will translate it to its local time zone, if needed.
--
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John Hasler
> Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no
> winter time shift whole year?
Sure. Many time zones have no "daylight savings" or "summer time". Just
pick an appropriate one or create your own.
> What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year,
> yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server.
NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with "time shift".
What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach.
--
John Hasler
Paul E Condon
> Good day.
>
> Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
> no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time
> (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system
> time with a ntp-server.
>
> How I can do this?
>
> Thank You for Your time.
Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I
was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it.
Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in the US
was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US is
used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Paul E Condon
> Strong and Humble writes:
> > Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has no
> > winter time shift whole year?
>
> Sure. Many time zones have no "daylight savings" or "summer time". Just
> pick an appropriate one or create your own.
>
> > What I want is to stay the same time (without winter shift) whole year,
> > yet be able synchrinize my system time with a ntp-server.
>
> NTP deals exclusively in UTC. It has nothing to do with "time shift".
>
> What problem are you trying to solve? There may be a better approach.
> --
> John Hasler
I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely:
A locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the
time, and text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use,
summer time, ever. Is there such a wrong-thinker/outlier variation of
locale? A sort of a sub-culture locale, that isn't really an fully
accurate reflection of the dominant culture in my geographic region?
For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance. With
the spread of computers in the sixties and seventies, I had hoped that
limitations of technology might kill summer-time. Instead, computer
technology has become an enabler of a feature of my culture that I do
not like.
And let's see what OP was really asking for also.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Ron Johnson
> On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote:
>> Good day.
>>
>> Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
>> no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time
>> (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system
>> time with a ntp-server.
>>
>> How I can do this?
>>
>> Thank You for Your time.
>
> Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I
> was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it.
> Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in the US
> was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US is
> used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter.
>
If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most
likely UTC.
Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse
yourself when looking at any other clock?
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
"Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
Lisi Reisz
I'm a bit lost on this. When I install Lenny I am asked when I choose a
timezone whether I want the system time (as opposed to hwclock, which I keep
in UTC (or GMT)) to be adjusted for summer time or not. I say yes. So that
is what I get. Could someone please explain, I genuinely don't
understand :-(, why it is so difficult to say no? There presumably is a
reason. Is it a bug? Am I just very lucky?
Lisi
Andrew M.A. Cater
Run dpkg-reconfigure -plow tzdata
Scroll down to "None of the above" - and choose GMT or the appropriate
offset.
Done :)
AndyC
John Hasler
> Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I
> was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it.
Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Nicaragua are
purportedly GMT -6 (which is the same as CST) with no DST. Run
"dpkg-reconfigure tzdata", pick one of those countries, and you'll be all
set. Alternatively, you could create your own zone. man zic.
However, I must reiterate that NTP has nothing to do with either time zones
or daylight-savings time. It deals exclusively in UTC.
--
John Hasler
Paul E Condon
A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST
(Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I
believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding
for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this
switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so
that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted
change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was
asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for
switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Lisi Reisz
But my locale is set to the UK, and we have summer time (or daylight saving
time). We lost the hour from 1:00 to 2:00 last night. So are you saying
that the choice I am given is a non-choice and that I would get the same
thing even if I answered no? Or are you saying that some locales are more
dictatorial than others?
Lisi
Lisi
John Hasler
> I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A
> locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and
> text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time,
> ever.
You can configure your timezone independently of your locale. See my
previous message in this thread. Your locale is just a bunch of
environment variables grouped for convenience.
> For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance.
For me "Daylight Savings Time" has always been idiocy.
BTW your "file mtimes" are stored in Unix time and converted to your
timezone for display.
--
John Hasler
Tzafrir Cohen
> > For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance.
>
> For me "Daylight Savings Time" has always been idiocy.
>
> BTW your "file mtimes" are stored in Unix time and converted to your
> timezone for display.
And the time zone includes definitions of daylight saving time.
$ zdump -v /etc/localtime | grep 2009
/etc/localtime Thu Mar 26 23:59:59 2009 UTC = Fri Mar 27 01:59:59 2009 IST isdst=0 gmtoff=7200
/etc/localtime Fri Mar 27 00:00:00 2009 UTC = Fri Mar 27 03:00:00 2009 IDT isdst=1 gmtoff=10800
/etc/localtime Sat Sep 26 22:59:59 2009 UTC = Sun Sep 27 01:59:59 2009 IDT isdst=1 gmtoff=10800
/etc/localtime Sat Sep 26 23:00:00 2009 UTC = Sun Sep 27 01:00:00 2009 IST isdst=0 gmtoff=7200
So generally there's no need to change a timezone to make the DST take
effect. Just set the proper time zone in advance.
--
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tza...@cohens.org.il | | best
ICQ# 16849754 | | friend
Ron Johnson
[snip]
>
> A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST
> (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I
> believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding
> for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this
> switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so
> that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted
> change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was
> asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for
> switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing.
That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral
issue like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT,
WY, NM & MT are now in MDT.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
"Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
John Hasler
> Run dpkg-reconfigure -plow tzdata
> Scroll down to "None of the above" - and choose GMT or the appropriate
> offset.
This is much better than my suggestion of choosing a country with the
appropriate offset.
--
John Hasler
John Hasler
> So generally there's no need to change a timezone to make the DST take
> effect. Just set the proper time zone in advance.
DST taking effect automatically is exactly what Paul is objecting to. He
wants no DST at all. AndyC has provided a solution.
--
John Hasler
Paul E Condon
> On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST
>> (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I
>> believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding
>> for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this
>> switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so
>> that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted
>> change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was
>> asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for
>> switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing.
>
> That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue
> like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM & MT
> are now in MDT.
>
> --
> Ron Johnson, Jr.
> Jefferson LA USA
>
> "Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
In public, I pretend to be a bleeding heart liberal/progressive, but I
am a closet libertarian. Its my computer, in the privacy of my home. I
like to have the time of sunrise as displayed on the clock harmonized
with what I know of the motion of the planet. Also, a little anarchy
can be a good thing.
Peace.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Paul E Condon
In my opinion, you did not lose an hour. You reset your clock. You
reset your clock because "everybody else" reset their clocks. I have
no quarrel with conforming in this way when I am in public, but in my
own home, sitting at my own computer, I like to keep my own time. I
now how to use NTP to support this habit.
As to dictatorial, no. You surely want to reset your clock. If there
were a dictatorial regime in US that mandated, under pain of some
punishment, that I reset my clock, I might plot against them, but I
would reset my clock. But we don't have a dictatorship here, just the
aftermath of a really disfunctional regime. All locales are the result
of well meaning people trying to be helpful. But some people don't
want some help.
Another thought. This morning the sun did not rise an hour later than
yesterday. It actually rose a little bit earlier. What also happened
is that you, and almost everybody else in UK reset their clocks. The
same thing happened a few weeks ago here in US.
Slightly more philosophically. Time happens. It was happening long
before man had clocks, and will continue to happen long after we are
gone. While we are here, and have clocks, there is some benefit in
having some level of agreement as to how we set our clocks, but only
up to a point. The whole time-zone thing is because globalization can
only go so far, and then reality forces disagreement among peoples of
the world. Disagreement is part of the human condition.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Ron Johnson
> Tzafrir Cohen writes:
>> So generally there's no need to change a timezone to make the DST take
>> effect. Just set the proper time zone in advance.
>
> DST taking effect automatically is exactly what Paul is objecting to. He
> wants no DST at all. AndyC has provided a solution.
Tell him to move to Arizona!!!
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
"Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
Ron Johnson
> On 2009-03-29_13:06:18, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST
>>> (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I
>>> believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding
>>> for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this
>>> switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so
>>> that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted
>>> change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was
>>> asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for
>>> switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing.
>> That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue
>> like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM & MT
>> are now in MDT.
>>
>
> am a closet libertarian. Its my computer, in the privacy of my home. I
> like to have the time of sunrise as displayed on the clock harmonized
> with what I know of the motion of the planet.
So, do you reset your clock every day to make it so that your
clock's noon is the same as solar noon?
If not, then you are just deluding yourself.
> Also, a little anarchy
> can be a good thing.
A *little* anarchy. But not much.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
"Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
Paul E Condon
> Paul E Condon writes:
> > I'm not OP, but I think I also want what, I believe, he wants, namely: A
> > locale that I can select that will give me text displays of the time, and
> > text displays of file mtimes that do not mention, or use, summer time,
> > ever.
>
> You can configure your timezone independently of your locale. See my
> previous message in this thread. Your locale is just a bunch of
> environment variables grouped for convenience.
>
> > For me, summer-time has always been something of an annoyance.
>
> For me "Daylight Savings Time" has always been idiocy.
>
> BTW your "file mtimes" are stored in Unix time and converted to your
> timezone for display.
So the inodes in Linux file systems will have to get bigger when 64bit
Unix time really comes into eeffective use. Do you know anything about
the plans for this transition? With the recent explosion in the size
of hard disks there will be a hell of a lot if inodes to rewrite!
I don't think this is a problem, and I doubt that I'll be around when a
32bit Unix time counter rolls over. Just something to wonder about...
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
John Hasler
> So the inodes in Linux file systems will have to get bigger when 64bit
> Unix time really comes into eeffective use. Do you know anything about
> the plans for this transition?
Ext4 solves the timestamp problem.
> With the recent explosion in the size of hard disks there will be a hell
> of a lot if inodes to rewrite!
Not necessary.
--
John Hasler
Chris Jones
> >Tzafrir Cohen writes:
> >DST taking effect automatically is exactly what Paul is objecting to. He
> >wants no DST at all. AndyC has provided a solution.
>
> Tell him to move to Arizona!!!
Silly me.. I felt all along there was one good reason why one would want
to move there.
CJ
Alex Samad
> On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote:
> > > On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote:
> > > > Strong and Humble writes:
> > > > > Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
> > > > > no winter time shift whole year?
> > > >
[snip]
>
> A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST
> (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I
> believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding
> for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this
> switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so
> that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted
> change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was
> asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for
> switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing.
Silly question why would you want to not follow local time ?
>
--
"The enemy understands a free Iraq will be a major defeat in their ideology of hatred. That's why they're fighting so vociferously."
- George W. Bush
09/30/2004
first presidential debate, Coral Gables, Fla.
Paul E Condon
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:49:22AM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
> > On 2009-03-29_16:19:28, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > On Sunday 29 March 2009 17:07:54 Paul E Condon wrote:
> > > > On 2009-03-29_09:59:49, John Hasler wrote:
> > > > > Strong and Humble writes:
> > > > > > Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
> > > > > > no winter time shift whole year?
> > > > >
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in MST
> > (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I
> > believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale coding
> > for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on this
> > switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so
> > that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted
> > change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was
> > asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for
> > switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing.
>
> Silly question why would you want to not follow local time ?
105deg meridian. I live in Lafayette, Colorado, which is at 105deg.6'
west. Local time here is 24 seconds delayed from local time at the
central meridian of this zone, and about a minute later than the local
time for Denver. That is close enough for me. I'm really not an
extremist ;-)
Ron Johnson
MDT is active for 7 months and 3 weeks, which means that it is the
de facto standard.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
"Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
Paul E Condon
It will change. The 105 west meridian, the rising and setting of the
Sun, are more lasting than a de-facto standard. I am content with what
I am doing. It is really wierd raising this little scruple to something
that it is not. I've learned how to effect a satisfactory solution to
my problem. Now I'm willing to move on.
The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO.
Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue? But there was no budget for
going after schoff-laws, maybe. Or maybe the government is more
sensible about some enforcement than some would expect. Or maybe
some on this list misunderestimate, or whatever.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Paul E Condon
Way upstream in this thread I gave what I thought to be an informative
and polite reason for my interest in controlling the visiual
presentation time values on my computer screen. Later you mention Jim
Crow laws. I agree with you that Jim Crow laws are really BAD. This
little preference of mine is in no danger of metastasizing into a
serious moral issue. Believe me.
The regular movement of the time of noon over the span of a year is
part of reality that I know, understand, and to some extent, treasure.
I think I am not in denial about who I am, or where I am. Unless, of
course, it turns our on further investigation that we are all just
software objects instantiated by a computer simulation of life being
run on a giant computer on a planet circling Alpha Centauri. But how
could we ever learn that?
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
John Hasler
> The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO.
> Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue?
Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without
permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all.
> But there was no budget for going after schoff-laws, maybe.
I don't think the law applies to individuals. I think it is one of those
things that the state governments must comply with or lose their handouts.
--
John Hasler
Ron Johnson
[snip]
>
> part of reality that I know, understand, and to some extent, treasure.
> I think I am not in denial about who I am, or where I am. Unless, of
> course, it turns our on further investigation that we are all just
> software objects instantiated by a computer simulation of life being
> run on a giant computer on a planet circling Alpha Centauri. But how
> could we ever learn that?
>
Wrong movie...
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
"Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
Tzafrir Cohen
> Paul E Condon writes:
> > The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO.
> > Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue?
>
> Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without
> permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all.
Sure. Why not use a time zone based on the exact spot where you live?
--
Tzafrir Cohen | tza...@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
tza...@cohens.org.il | | best
ICQ# 16849754 | | friend
Johannes Wiedersich
> In the meantime it has proven to be a lot of hassle with no
> (or very little) benefit and - at least in my country - the vast
> majority is in favour of abolishing this enslaving of millions of
> biorythms.
s/biorhythm/circadian rhythm/
Johannes
Johannes Wiedersich
> On 2009-03-29 11:49, Paul E Condon wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> A few weeks ago, my Lenny system switched over from displaying time in
>> MST
>> (Mountain Standard Time) to MDT (Mountain Daylight Time). It did this, I
>> believe, because the switch-over is mandated in the official locale
>> coding
>> for this region (Colorado). I would like to now how to take a pass on
>> this
>> switch-over part of the local locale. And how to do it ahead of time, so
>> that for me, I don't have to find an unwanted task of undoing a unwanted
>> change waiting on a Sunday morning. My version of what I think OP was
>> asking for is a variant of locale that does not honor local mandates for
>> switching to and from summer-time. It is very much a cultural thing.
>
> That's the point: it's cultural. And it's not an important moral issue
> like Jim Crow. So why go against every other clock in CO, UT, WY, NM &
> MT are now in MDT.
Because summer time is a *bad* thing. Having a consistent time without
an artificial shift twice a year is the *right* thing.
Besides it has nothing to do with democracy except that the ruling
politicians of the time thought it might be a good idea to try on their
subjects. In the meantime it has proven to be a lot of hassle with no
(or very little) benefit and - at least in my country - the vast
majority is in favour of abolishing this enslaving of millions of
biorythms.
Cheers,
Johannes
John Hasler
> Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without
> permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all.
Tzafrir Cohen writes:
> Sure. Why not use a time zone based on the exact spot where you live?
Why not use time zones based on voluntary standards? People can and do
agree on things without compulsion.
--
John Hasler
ghe
Hash: SHA1
Why don't you just tell your OS that you live in Arizona? That's
Mountain Time, and they don't do DST, IIRC.
- --
Glenn English
g...@slsware.com
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Tzafrir Cohen
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Why don't you just tell your OS that you live in Arizona? That's
> Mountain Time, and they don't do DST, IIRC.
Indeed:
$ zdump -v /usr/share/zoneinfo/America/Phoenix | grep 2009
[nothing]
Alternatively, just compile your own time zone. The binary timezone file
is portable at least among various Linux libc-s (IIRC uclibc also
supports it). IIRC some other OSes support exactly the same binary
format, but I'm not sure.
For more information, see zic(8)
--
Tzafrir Cohen | tza...@jabber.org | VIM is
http://tzafrir.org.il | | a Mutt's
tza...@cohens.org.il | | best
ICQ# 16849754 | | friend
Paul E Condon
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Why don't you just tell your OS that you live in Arizona? That's
> Mountain Time, and they don't do DST, IIRC.
After I learned where to look on this list, I looked there, and found
some very nice advance work by the developers responsible for
maintenance of tzdata.
When one runs dpkg-reconfigure tzdata, one sees a list of continental
region designations. At the bottom of the list is "Etc". If one
selects that item, one is presented with a multitude of options that
mostly begin with GMT- or GMT+. These are 'time zones' that are simple
hourly offsets from GMT without local legal mandates. The senses of
GMT- and GMT+ are the reverse of what I first guessed. These are
better than Arizona for me. With the collapse of cranky
conservativism, Arizona might take up daylight saving time, but GMT+7
should not change. It is the local time for the 105degrees west
meridion.
The list contains some synonyms: GMT GMT0 GMT+0 GMT-0 Greenwich UCT
UTC Universal Zulu all seem to invoke the same interpretation of Unix
time.
GMT+12 and GMT-12 are there, and they are not the synonyms. They differ
by one day in the date. This applies also to GMT-13 and GMT-14. They are
not the same as GMT+11 and GMT+10.
I guess that the developers responsible for maintenance of time-zone
code that includes local-mandates/social-conventions, keep the code for
these hourly offsets as a starting point for patching in new
legal/local logic. I appreciate them giving it mnemonic names and
making it available for general use, via the Etc designation.
I am continually amazed by Debian. Every day in every way it gets
better and better.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Paul E Condon
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:13:12PM -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> > Paul E Condon writes:
> > > The current standard is better described as a de-jure standard, IMHO.
> > > Didn't Congress pass a law on this issue?
> >
> > Of course. Otherwise we might have people doing things without
> > permission. Everything _must_ be regulated, after all.
>
> Sure. Why not use a time zone based on the exact spot where you live?
FYI. GMT definition is based on an exact spot with in the campus of
the old Greenwich Observatory (which has now been decommissioned).
Telescopes to the east or the west of that spot by about 289 meters
have local time that is 1s different from GMT. I don't know whether
there was ever a telescope at the exact spot that has been used as
reference. Astronomers knew how to make corrections for differing
locations of telescopes well before Greenwich became the consensus
reference location. The exact spot may have been selected with some
intent to please a royal person. It was because they new how to make
corrections that it became valuable to select a common reference
point. The early French referenced a meridian that was some number of
degrees minutes and seconds of arc to the west of Paris. They never
mentioned Greenwich, but their reference meridian happened to be the
one on which Greenwich was located. Strange accident? I think not.
Most astronomical observatories do have a clock set to local time and
the astronomers think nothing of it. They would be seriously put out
if local authorities wanted them to set that clock to standard or
daylight time.
This astronomical work has all been done to a precision that is vastly
greater than my personal needs. I live within 6 minutes of arc of the
105 west meridian. I can live with using local time on that meridian.
But "exact spot"? That would imply different clock settings in
different rooms of one's home. Not for me.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Hugo Vanwoerkom
> On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote:
>> On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote:
>>> Good day.
>>>
>>> Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
>>> (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system
>>> time with a ntp-server.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank You for Your time.
>>
>> Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I
>> was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want
>> it. Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in
>> the US
>> was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US
>> is used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter.
>>
>
> If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely
> UTC.
>
> Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse
> yourself when looking at any other clock?
>
Precisely
Hugo
Paul E Condon
> On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote:
>> On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote:
>>> Good day.
>>>
>>> Just wanted to know if it is possible to specify a time zone that has
>>> no winter time shift whole year? What I want is to stay the same time
>>> (without winter shift) whole year, yet be able synchrinize my system
>>> time with a ntp-server.
>>>
>>> How I can do this?
>>>
>>> Thank You for Your time.
>>
>> Wow! A kindred spirit. I have often wished for this too, but thought I
>> was the only person in the world who was such an outlier as to want it.
>> Only difference is that I have thought the thing we have now in the US
>> was 'summer time' as opposed to 'standard time', which now in the US is
>> used for only a few weeks in the depths of winter.
>>
>
> If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely
> UTC.
On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC,
rather it is "seconds since Unix Epoch", often shortened to "seconds
since Epoch", or just "Unix time". All the stuff about displaying year,
month, day, AM/PM, and other human cultural things is done in software
that reads the Unix clock and translates the reading into one of many
different forms with which humans are more comfortable.
The issue, for me, has been which of these human forms is displayed on
my computer, and how do I control that choice. I think it would be
crazy to switch to a different clock internally in the computer. It is
seconds since Epoch, and always will be, so long as Linux/Unix/POSIX
exists, IMHO.
UTC is available as a translation. You can get it, if you want, by
selecting "Etc:UTC" in dpkg-reconfigure tzdata.
You can display a decimal representation of the binary number in the
Unix clock in your computer by issuing the command "date +%s".
>
> Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse
> yourself when looking at any other clock?
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Alex Samad
> On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote:
> >> On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote:
> >>> Good day.
[snip]
> > If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely
> > UTC.
>
> On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC,
> rather it is "seconds since Unix Epoch", often shortened to "seconds
beg to differ, I believe the time is kept relative to UTC and the
recording method is unix time
> since Epoch", or just "Unix time". All the stuff about displaying year,
> month, day, AM/PM, and other human cultural things is done in software
> that reads the Unix clock and translates the reading into one of many
> different forms with which humans are more comfortable.
>
> The issue, for me, has been which of these human forms is displayed on
> my computer, and how do I control that choice. I think it would be
> crazy to switch to a different clock internally in the computer. It is
> seconds since Epoch, and always will be, so long as Linux/Unix/POSIX
> exists, IMHO.
>
> UTC is available as a translation. You can get it, if you want, by
> selecting "Etc:UTC" in dpkg-reconfigure tzdata.
I believe all this does is change the default system time zone try this
date ; TZ=UTC date
Tue Mar 31 07:57:14 EST 2009
Mon Mar 30 20:57:14 UTC 2009
date is sensitive to the TZ variable
I am in Oz
>
> You can display a decimal representation of the binary number in the
> Unix clock in your computer by issuing the command "date +%s".
>
> >
> > Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse
> > yourself when looking at any other clock?
>
>
>
--
"As far as the legal hassling and wrangling and posturing in Florida, I would suggest you talk to our team in Florida led by Jim Baker."
- George W. Bush
11/30/2000
Crawford, TX
Ron Johnson
> On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely
>> UTC.
>
> On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC,
> rather it is "seconds since Unix Epoch", often shortened to "seconds
> since Epoch", or just "Unix time".
The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows
"seconds since it's epoch". And that's (I think) translated to a
struct or string (but not integer, like in Unix) which the kernel
reads at boot.
But on the 90% of machines that run Windows, that BIOS time is
"local". On "single-boot" Linux and BSD machines (not sure about
OSX, though), the BIOS clock is ABSOLUTELY set to GMT/UTC.
--
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson LA USA
"Freedom is not a license for anarchy."
Paul E Condon
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 02:50:55PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
> > On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote:
> > > On 2009-03-29 10:49, Paul E Condon wrote:
> > >> On 2009-03-29_22:29:41, Strong and Humble wrote:
> > >>> Good day.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most likely
> > > UTC.
> >
> > On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC,
> > rather it is "seconds since Unix Epoch", often shortened to "seconds
>
> beg to differ, I believe the time is kept relative to UTC and the
> recording method is unix time
In Linux hosts, the time that is used is a reading of the software clock
on the "host", i.e. the computer. Most people choose to keep this clock
set to agree with an NTP server. But the clock in the compute is Unix time,
with errors associated with constantly resetting it via NTP, not UTC.
Appropriate format settings in date, translate it so that it looks like
UTC, but the traceablity to UTC, is ... not so good. Good enough for most
computer network work, but not really up to snuff by other standards.
It is 'virtually the same', or 'the same for all practical purposes', or
some other phrase that indicates that you are skipping over details.
My point was that the clock is a local, rather low tech piece of hardware
that had been set to agree with UTC at some time in the fairly recent past,
as opposed to "it's clock is most likely UTC". UTC is based on TAI, but
with leap seconds. TAI has its own Epoch back in the late '50s or early '60s.
It is always represented with this fact suppressed by adding into the seconds
count, an offset that is based on the conventional calculation of seconds
since the birth of Christ in the Gregorian calendar.
>
> > since Epoch", or just "Unix time". All the stuff about displaying year,
> > month, day, AM/PM, and other human cultural things is done in software
> > that reads the Unix clock and translates the reading into one of many
> > different forms with which humans are more comfortable.
> >
> > The issue, for me, has been which of these human forms is displayed on
> > my computer, and how do I control that choice. I think it would be
> > crazy to switch to a different clock internally in the computer. It is
> > seconds since Epoch, and always will be, so long as Linux/Unix/POSIX
> > exists, IMHO.
> >
> > UTC is available as a translation. You can get it, if you want, by
> > selecting "Etc:UTC" in dpkg-reconfigure tzdata.
>
> I believe all this does is change the default system time zone try this
>
> date ; TZ=UTC date
> Tue Mar 31 07:57:14 EST 2009
> Mon Mar 30 20:57:14 UTC 2009
>
> date is sensitive to the TZ variable
>
Look at one of my earlier posts. This fact is handled rather nicely in
tzdata. I think you will not find any mistakes in the handling of the
tranlation of the reading from the Unix clock into any time-zone format.
> I am in Oz
You probably have more day-to-day hassles about the International Date
Line than I do here in Colorado. To me, it is largely a theoretical
issue. Although I did get some feel for the confusion when my daughter
lived for a while in NZ ;-)
Paul E Condon
> On 2009-03-30 15:50, Paul E Condon wrote:
>> On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote:
> [snip]
>>> If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most
>>> likely UTC.
>>
>> On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC,
>> rather it is "seconds since Unix Epoch", often shortened to "seconds
>> since Epoch", or just "Unix time".
>
> The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows "seconds
> since it's epoch". And that's (I think) translated to a struct or string
True, seconds since it's epoch, but it's epoch is not Unix Epoch, and
all sorts of uncertainties and confusions arise because nobody knows
the "DOS epoch" of someone else's computer. What a mess! At least with
Unix there is only one epoch to argue about, rather than millions and
millions in all the Windows computers in the world.
The implementation of time keeping in Debian/GNU/Linux is actually
quite well done. I had not been aware of how well done until recently
while engaging in this discussion. I have issues with some of the
descriptions of it that I perceive to be sloppily worded. I think too
many descriptions are written with an eye to shutting up a person who
asks question than to describing how thing actually work. Debian does
pretty well at avoiding these conventional falsehoods. (I think of
answers to "Where do babies come from?" for instance.)
Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last
shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an
hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional
wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough,
it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Chris Jones
> >Anyway, what's the purpose of why you want to do this? To confuse
> >yourself when looking at any other clock?
You do know how Albert Einstein graduated from peculiar moron to
universal genius..?
CJ
Chris Jones
[..]
> FYI. GMT definition is based on an exact spot with in the campus of
> the old Greenwich Observatory (which has now been decommissioned).
> Telescopes to the east or the west of that spot by about 289 meters
> have local time that is 1s different from GMT. I don't know whether
> there was ever a telescope at the exact spot that has been used as
> reference. Astronomers knew how to make corrections for differing
> locations of telescopes well before Greenwich became the consensus
> reference location. The exact spot may have been selected with some
> intent to please a royal person. It was because they new how to make
> corrections that it became valuable to select a common reference
> point. The early French referenced a meridian that was some number of
> degrees minutes and seconds of arc to the west of Paris. They never
> mentioned Greenwich, but their reference meridian happened to be the
> one on which Greenwich was located. Strange accident? I think not.
Rule Britannia.. Britannia rule the waves.. (?)
> Most astronomical observatories do have a clock set to local time and
> the astronomers think nothing of it. They would be seriously put out
> if local authorities wanted them to set that clock to standard or
> daylight time.
> This astronomical work has all been done to a precision that is vastly
> greater than my personal needs. I live within 6 minutes of arc of the
> 105 west meridian. I can live with using local time on that meridian.
Would that be Boulder, CO..? I vaguely remember that my "alarm clock"
sync's to its master over there, but I can't seem to get ahold of its
manual just now.
> But "exact spot"? That would imply different clock settings in
> different rooms of one's home. Not for me.
Fancy that.. under our latitudes, when your house is a few hundred yards
wide.. never mind.. I've overstayed my welcome on this here list.
CJ
Tom Furie
> Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last
> shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an
> hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional
> wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough,
> it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact.
To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your
usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the
same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do
lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument,
seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances
anyway.
Cheers,
Tom
--
I once decorated my apartment entirely in ten foot salad forks!!
Ron Johnson
[snip]
>
> Would that be Boulder, CO..? I vaguely remember that my "alarm clock"
> sync's to its master over there, but I can't seem to get ahold of its
> manual just now.
>
http://tf.nist.gov/cesium/fountain.htm
http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvb.htm
--
Scooty Puff, Sr
The Doom-Bringer
Mike Bird
In which case, you wouldn't mind randomly sleeping sixteen hours or
zero hours with equal probability because in the long run it all
balances anyway?
--Mike Bird
Ron Johnson
> On 2009-03-30_16:21:39, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> On 2009-03-30 15:50, Paul E Condon wrote:
>>> On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>> If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most
>>>> likely UTC.
>>> On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC,
>>> rather it is "seconds since Unix Epoch", often shortened to "seconds
>>> since Epoch", or just "Unix time".
>> The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows "seconds
>> since it's epoch". And that's (I think) translated to a struct or string
>
> True, seconds since it's epoch, but it's epoch is not Unix Epoch, and
> all sorts of uncertainties and confusions arise because nobody knows
> the "DOS epoch" of someone else's computer. What a mess! At least with
> Unix there is only one epoch to argue about, rather than millions and
> millions in all the Windows computers in the world.
>
> The implementation of time keeping in Debian/GNU/Linux is actually
It's more Unix/Posix and RFC 1305.
Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was
extraordinarily shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much
more flexibility...
[snip]
>
> Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last
> shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an
> hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional
> wording, it is manifestly untrue.
Besides, as Tom Furie mentioned losing an hour of sleep, what's
really happening is that you are shifting/rotating your UTC offset
by 1 hour.
> But if people say it often enough,
> it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact.
Most people are very sloppy at thinking logically. [troll]Can women
even do it?[/troll]
--
Scooty Puff, Sr
The Doom-Bringer
Chris Jones
> On 2009-03-30 17:52, Chris Jones wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> >Would that be Boulder, CO..? I vaguely remember that my "alarm clock"
> >sync's to its master over there, but I can't seem to get ahold of its
> >manual just now.
> >
>
> http://tf.nist.gov/cesium/fountain.htm
> http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvb.htm
Thanks, and I hope it will benefit others as well.
CJ
Paul E Condon
You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave
to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the
night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only
reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been
repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie.
Cheers and Peace.
Paul E Condon
> On Mon March 30 2009 16:12:57 Tom Furie wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 04:47:38PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
> > > Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last
> > > shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an
> > > hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional
> > > wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough,
> > > it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact.
> >
> > To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your
> > usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the
> > same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do
> > lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument,
> > seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances
> > anyway.
>
> In which case, you wouldn't mind randomly sleeping sixteen hours or
> zero hours with equal probability because in the long run it all
> balances anyway?
That's silly. I said nothing to suggest that I advocate randomness in
ordering one's life. What I said, put another way, is that when the
clock reading is an hour later than it feels like, and when you can
remember moving it setting an hour forward the previous evening, it
is strangely irrational to claim that there has been a discontinuity
in time during the night. Saying that "losing an hour" is just of figure
of speach, but then actually believing its literal meaning is ... Well,
I am speachless at such an admission.
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Paul E Condon
> On 2009-03-30 17:47, Paul E Condon wrote:
>> On 2009-03-30_16:21:39, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>> On 2009-03-30 15:50, Paul E Condon wrote:
>>>> On 2009-03-29_11:15:15, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>> [snip]
>>>>> If you only have Linux on your computer, then it's clock is most
>>>>> likely UTC.
>>>> On a Linux computer, the internal clock is almost certainly *NOT* UTC,
>>>> rather it is "seconds since Unix Epoch", often shortened to "seconds
>>>> since Epoch", or just "Unix time".
>>> The BIOS does not have a concept of time zone. It only knows "seconds
>>> since it's epoch". And that's (I think) translated to a struct or
>>> string
>>
>> True, seconds since it's epoch, but it's epoch is not Unix Epoch, and
>> all sorts of uncertainties and confusions arise because nobody knows
>> the "DOS epoch" of someone else's computer. What a mess! At least with
>> Unix there is only one epoch to argue about, rather than millions and
>> millions in all the Windows computers in the world.
>>
>> The implementation of time keeping in Debian/GNU/Linux is actually
>
> It's more Unix/Posix and RFC 1305.
>
> Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was extraordinarily
> shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much more flexibility...
I'm not familiar with the OpenVMS epoch, but I don't believe
flexibility in a definition of a epoch can make it better. Where can I
read a discussion of the value of making a epoch flexible? And what on
earth does it mean to make an epoch flexible?
>
> [snip]
>>
>> Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last
>> shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an
>> hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional
>> wording, it is manifestly untrue.
>
> Besides, as Tom Furie mentioned losing an hour of sleep, what's really
> happening is that you are shifting/rotating your UTC offset by 1 hour.
Yes, Shifting/rotating is what I call changing the setting on your
clock. Using words that suggest a break in the fabric of time vastly
over state the powers of Man.
>
>> But if people say it often enough,
>> it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact.
>
> Most people are very sloppy at thinking logically. [troll]Can women even
> do it?[/troll]
Progress! in coming to see my point. You can say things about women that
you cannot yet admit about yourself. :-)
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Manoj Srivastava
>
> You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a
> slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an
> hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being,
> IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is
> that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that
> it is a lie.
On the other hand, I get up an hour early because I am addicted
to eating. I have to mesh my activities with other folks, and they
start work at a time that is an hour earlier in the summer. Grocery
stores, Pharmacies, movie theaters -- things that affect my schedule --
all shift. It is moronic to not juet get up in sync with the activities
and schedules that make up my life.
If you think it is nonsensical, I truly feel sorry for you. It
must be lonely out where you are.
And so, yes, I sleep a little less in spring, and get an hour
extra in the fall. Not because I am a slavef to the clock, but I am
not geeky enough to think I live on an island, entire of itself.
manoj
--
"It's men like him that give the Y chromosome a bad name."
Manoj Srivastava <sriv...@acm.org> <http://www.golden-gryphon.com/>
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Ron Johnson
[snip]
>
> to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the
> night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only
> reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been
> repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie.
Any person living in any society is a slave to any number of things.
The larger and more complicated the society, the more "things" you
are slave to.
Even a hermit who lives in a cave and grows/catches his/her own food
is slave to the seasons, the weather, the rising/setting of the sun,
etc, etc.
I used to believe that I could be my own island, but it's just not
true.
--
Scooty Puff, Sr
The Doom-Bringer
Lisi Reisz
> On Mon March 30 2009 16:12:57 Tom Furie wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 04:47:38PM -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
> > > Now, I want to stop arguing about the descriptions. But just one last
> > > shot. I believe it is factually incorrect to say that you 'lose an
> > > hour' in switching from standard to summer time. It is conventional
> > > wording, it is manifestly untrue. But if people say it often enough,
> > > it becomes something that is used in syllogisms as if it were a fact.
> >
> > To be slightly pedantic about it, if you go to bed at whatever your
> > usual time is before the clocks change and still have to get up at the
> > same (clock) time in the morning as you did the day before, then you do
> > lose an hour of sleep, that night. Then again, by the same argument,
> > seven months or so later you get that hour back, so it all balances
> > anyway.
To be unpedantic and factual, what officially happens here in the UK is that
we lose an hour of clock time. The clock hour between 01:00 and 02:00 does
not exist that night. Clocks are deemed to move from 00:00:59 to 02:00.
When we move the other way we gain an hour of clock time. Clocks move from
01:59:59 to 01:00:00.
Lisi
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> On Mon, Mar 30 2009, Paul E Condon wrote:
>
>> You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a
>> slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an
>> hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being,
>> IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is
>> that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that
>> it is a lie.
>>
>
> On the other hand, I get up an hour early because I am addicted
> to eating. I have to mesh my activities with other folks, and they
> start work at a time that is an hour earlier in the summer. Grocery
> stores, Pharmacies, movie theaters -- things that affect my schedule --
> all shift.
>
Not to mention work hours, for those who do not work at home, have
completely flexible work hours, or run their own business.
--
The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heav'n of Hell, a Hell of Heav'n.
-- John Milton
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edu...@kalinowski.com.br
Ron Johnson
> Manoj Srivastava wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 30 2009, Paul E Condon wrote:
>>
>>> You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a
>>> slave to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an
>>> hour the night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being,
>>> IMHO. The only reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is
>>> that it has been repeated so many times that you have forgotten that
>>> it is a lie.
>>>
>> On the other hand, I get up an hour early because I am addicted
>> to eating. I have to mesh my activities with other folks, and they
>> start work at a time that is an hour earlier in the summer. Grocery
>> stores, Pharmacies, movie theaters -- things that affect my schedule --
>> all shift.
>>
>
> Not to mention work hours, for those who do not work at home, have
> completely flexible work hours, or run their own business.
Even those who run their own businesses are "slaves" to their
customers. If your open-for-business hours are inconvenient for
them, they'll go somewhere else.
--
Scooty Puff, Sr
The Doom-Bringer
Ron Johnson
> On 2009-03-30_18:57:33, Ron Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was extraordinarily
>> shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much more flexibility...
>
> I'm not familiar with the OpenVMS epoch, but I don't believe
> flexibility in a definition of a epoch can make it better. Where can I
> read a discussion of the value of making a epoch flexible? And what on
> earth does it mean to make an epoch flexible?
The VMS epoch is fixed at 17-Nov-1858 00:00:00.0000000.
http://vms.tuwien.ac.at/info/humour/vms-base-time-origin.txt
"Flexible" is probably the wrong word. "More useful" is a better
phrase, since is able to represent, and thus do arithmetic on 110
more years, in 100ns ticks instead of 1s ticks, than the Unix epoch.
--
Scooty Puff, Sr
The Doom-Bringer
John Hasler
> Even those who run their own businesses are "slaves" to their customers.
> If your open-for-business hours are inconvenient for them, they'll go
> somewhere else.
You could change your open-for-business hours to suit your customers
without resetting the clocks in your home.
However, I run my own business and I "spring forward" and "fall back" along
with everyone else. I still think it is silly, though.
--
John Hasler
Avi Greenbury
> You did not lose an hour. You got up an hour early because you are a slave
> to the reading on a clock that you know you set forward by an hour the
> night before. This is not the behavior of a rational being, IMHO. The only
> reason, IMHO, that you subscribe to such nonsense is that it has been
> repeated so many times that you have forgotten that it is a lie.
Surely once you've enslaved yourself to the reading of the clock which
you've set once, it's hardly a major step to keep enslaving yourself to
it when you set it to something else?
--
Avi Greenbury
Paul E Condon
> On 2009-03-30 21:47, Paul E Condon wrote:
>> On 2009-03-30_18:57:33, Ron Johnson wrote:
> [snip]
>>>
>>> Whoever decided on an epoch of 1970-01-01 00:00:00 was extraordinarily
>>> shortsighted, though. The OpenVMS epoch gives much more
>>> flexibility...
>>
>> I'm not familiar with the OpenVMS epoch, but I don't believe
>> flexibility in a definition of a epoch can make it better. Where can I
>> read a discussion of the value of making a epoch flexible? And what on
>> earth does it mean to make an epoch flexible?
>
> The VMS epoch is fixed at 17-Nov-1858 00:00:00.0000000.
> http://vms.tuwien.ac.at/info/humour/vms-base-time-origin.txt
>
> "Flexible" is probably the wrong word. "More useful" is a better phrase,
> since is able to represent, and thus do arithmetic on 110 more years, in
> 100ns ticks instead of 1s ticks, than the Unix epoch.
100ns is comparable to the period of the clocking of the CPU. No OS
can produce time-stamps to the accuracy of a single period of the
clocking of the CPU on which it is running. The logic of a lot of the
processing of files is based on checking mtimes of the files. For
this to continue to work correctly, some logic will have to be
introduced to eliminate or ignore the jitter in these time data. This
is added complexity, not improvement. Perhaps a tick period that is
shorter than 1s might be justified some time in the future, jacking up
the precision of the recording, without a concurrent program for a
corresponding improvement in the accuracy of the clock, is madness, IMHO.
As an example of the difficulties, consider a quad core CPU chip, with
each core "independently" managing some files. There are race conditions
in such a situation. Checking time stamps will surely not be an adequate
way to resolve these race conditions. Extend this to a world wide network
of a global corporation. There will be race conditions. By itself 100ns
tick will not help in resolving these. In fact it will divert attention
from viable solutions.
We are on a clear path to having 64bit Unix clocks universally
deployed well before they will actually be needed, so the added time
span of the open nonsense proposal is inferior to what can easily be
done within the Unix tradition.
Just my $.02
--
Paul E Condon
peco...@mesanetworks.net
Ron Johnson
> Scooty Puff writes:
>> Even those who run their own businesses are "slaves" to their customers.
>> If your open-for-business hours are inconvenient for them, they'll go
>> somewhere else.
>
> You could change your open-for-business hours to suit your customers
> without resetting the clocks in your home.
>
> However, I run my own business and I "spring forward" and "fall back" along
> with everyone else. I still think it is silly, though.
Agreed. It's just *easier* to change some clocks than to change
everything else in your life.
But... PECs decision to to it his way in his house doesn't affect
any of us.
--
Scooty Puff, Sr
The Doom-Bringer
Johan Kullstam
What does Santa Claus do? His house has all the lattitudes. What do
the people at the Amundsen-Scott do? For extra credit, consider that
daylight and night are each six months long.
--
Johan KULLSTAM
Strong and Humble
> cat /etc/timezone - mine reads /Etc/GMT
>
> Run dpkg-reconfigure -plow tzdata
>
> Scroll down to "None of the above" - and choose GMT or the
> appropriate offset.
>
> Done :)
Thank You very much, Andrew and others who has answered my question.
I also appologice for long respond as I am new to the list and its
volume just overhelmed me. Yet I do not know how to setup filtering on
topics at gmail.com.
Well. I have done as You said, and can verify it only on october - when
the 'winter time' comes again.
What I want(ed) is that my system show always the same time regardless
of the winter time and I yet could synchronize my system w/
NTP-servers. I know that the servers are in UTC. But the problem w/ me
was that once the 'winter time' comes and I synchronize my system w/
NTP-server, I get time offset too, notwithstanding I want to escape it.
So, is Your decision sufficient for my problem? Or another something
should be undertaken?
What seemed me od with dpkg-reconfigure is that I had to choose wrong
GMT offset in order system shows true time.
Again, thank You, All, for Your time and efforts in answering me.
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
> What I want(ed) is that my system show always the same time regardless
> of the winter time
You can do that, but I wonder why you would want to. I assume you live
in an area where there are daylight saving time shifts, so it would be
weird that your clocks show an one-hour difference from all the others.
> and I yet could synchronize my system w/
> NTP-servers. I know that the servers are in UTC. But the problem w/ me
> was that once the 'winter time' comes and I synchronize my system w/
> NTP-server, I get time offset too, notwithstanding I want to escape it.
>
NTP has nothing to do with it, as it has been explained already. What
you need is set your time zone. This is the only thing that changes when
DST starts or ends is the GMT offset.
> So, is Your decision sufficient for my problem? Or another something
> should be undertaken?
>
> What seemed me od with dpkg-reconfigure is that I had to choose wrong
> GMT offset in order system shows true time.
>
Someone mentioned there are timezones which are just GMT offsets. These
should work and should not change during the year, unlike time zones for
specific places.
--
Drinking coffee for instant relaxation? That's like drinking alcohol for
instant motor skills.
-- Marc Price
Eduardo M KALINOWSKI
edu...@kalinowski.com.br
John Hasler
> What I want(ed) is that my system show always the same time regardless of
> the winter time and I yet could synchronize my system w/ NTP-servers. I
> know that the servers are in UTC. But the problem w/ me was that once the
> 'winter time' comes and I synchronize my system w/ NTP-server, I get time
> offset too, notwithstanding I want to escape it.
Ntp and "winter time" are unrelated.
> What seemed me od with dpkg-reconfigure is that I had to choose wrong GMT
> offset in order system shows true time.
How is your hardware (i.e., BIOS) clock set? Do you have "UTC=yes" in
/etc/default/rcS?
--
John Hasler