Crowdfunded Lift 3 documentation effort?

[Marc Grue]

Hi all,

Out of curiosity, can someone give a hum about the status of the upcoming final release of Lift 3.0?

I recall that Antonio mentioned at some point that he had some cool ideas for some new documentation efforts (but haven't been able to find the post). I would love to see that blossom since it's a bit frustrating to learn Lift by gathering bits and pieces from here and there (demo.liftweb, cookbook, lift in action etc), from different versions etc. The list is very helpful, but some pedagogical progressing learning material for version 3.0 would be so awesome and helpful - and hopefully lowering the learning curve for newbies (like me). Documenting the new features of 3.0 would also be great.

What if we started a crowdfunding to maybe pay Antonio or some other Lift committer to allocate time for starting up organizing some cool 3.0-documentation? If say, 500 lifters chipped in 10-50$ each, then that could maybe make the necessary time available to lay the foundation? Maybe some companies would chip in too.

I think a coherent up-to-date documentation could help attract more people to use Lift. I hope there wouldn't be legal/principal implications of taking this route.

What do you think?

Thanks,

Marc

[Henrik Härkönen]

Hey!

I agree, if there is something of an issue with Lift, it's the scattered documentation. I think most of it still is quite valid, though?

I would gladly chip-in with 20€, for example. And help with the process, if somehow possible. It just would have to be led somehow in structured manner.

-Henrik

[Riccardo Sirigu]

I totally agree.. 

I can also help to update the docs in my spare time

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Both of these ideas are welcome for sure. I invested some time a year or so ago

into writing up a new intro tutorial but never got it somewhere I was fully satisfied

with it. Then again, I bit off a bit more than I could necessarily chew, since I was

trying to make a combination of the tutorial, an associated git repo so you could

check out the code at any point in the tutorial, and an associated tool for being

able to let you mess with that code in the browser with live updates based on

docker.

So maybe if I were to revisit without those extra things hanging on, it might

help a bit haha.

I've also been re-skimming one of my favorite writings on the subject of documentation.

Net-net: yes, I think all of this is a good plan. If we were to go a monetary path (not

sure what that would look like exactly off the top of my head), we might want to go with

a pool that was then distributed to folks who took on various tasks, somewhat in the

style of a bounty.

I have somewhere a list of things that it would be nice to have documented, either in

tutorial form or in reference form. 

Last note: one of my early forays into this led to this updated document on CSS Selector

Transforms. The most interesting thing about it is that it has a corresponding pair of

scripts that extract the code in the document into a set of tests and then ensures the

document is actually correct.

Looking forward to more discussion from folks!

Thanks,

Antonio

[ari gold]

I wholeheartedly agree.

In fact, I've been thinking of how to start this ball rolling. Slowly.. but surely :)

Personally, I don't have the free-time. That said, the place I work uses Lift - I'm going to try to see if I can get an hour (or 3) a week to help with documentation. Seems like a few months of that could make a huge difference.

Fwiw, one of Antonio's cool ideas, documentation-wise, is: https://github.com/hacklanta/lift-jungle-gym

All the best,

Ari

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Oh, regarding Lift 3.0.0 final: we should be cutting another RC soon

and hopefully that will be the last one!

Thanks,

Antonio

[Marc Grue]

On Wednesday, September 28, 2016 at 7:34:01 PM UTC+2, Antonio Salazar Cardozo wrote:

Both of these ideas are welcome for sure. I invested some time a year or so ago

into writing up a new intro tutorial but never got it somewhere I was fully satisfied

with it. Then again, I bit off a bit more than I could necessarily chew, since I was

trying to make a combination of the tutorial, an associated git repo so you could

check out the code at any point in the tutorial, and an associated tool for being

able to let you mess with that code in the browser with live updates based on

docker.

So maybe if I were to revisit without those extra things hanging on, it might

help a bit haha.

I've also been re-skimming one of my favorite writings on the subject of documentation.

I really agree with those thoughts.

 

Net-net: yes, I think all of this is a good plan. If we were to go a monetary path (not

sure what that would look like exactly off the top of my head), we might want to go with

a pool that was then distributed to folks who took on various tasks, somewhat in the

style of a bounty.

That could be a way to go. I'm just a bit afraid that this could easily become a non-coherent patchwork of efforts which might not really take us forward?

I was initially thinking of hiring maybe a coder and designer who would set up the basic infrastructure and layout preparing for a workflow to use for all contributors then. But first we would know more or less in what direction we want it to take. If we simply start a crowdfunding project at for instance https://www.kickstarter.com/learn?ref=nav - then we could let the list agree on some of the committers to take on the project over a period of time (full/part time), and maybe hire an extra front-end designer to help too? To be discussed here, of course.

 

I have somewhere a list of things that it would be nice to have documented, either in

tutorial form or in reference form. 

That's great! If we could set up a work set that would allow some idea-sharing, then that would be awesome. I think I saw Github having something in beta for documenting open source projects but haven't been able to find it again (it was more elaborate than their wiki Pages).

 

Last note: one of my early forays into this led to this updated document on CSS Selector

Transforms. The most interesting thing about it is that it has a corresponding pair of

scripts that extract the code in the document into a set of tests and then ensures the

document is actually correct.

Looking forward to more discussion from folks!

Thanks,

Antonio

If we were to make a wish-list from a documentation work set, what would that be? I think if we can get a clearer picture of what we want, then we can more easily find a practical solution of how to start it. Some things I have on my mind are:

- Documentation should stay close to the Lift framework code (follow individual versions) and not be in a separate repo where it would easily get out of sync with Lift. 

- Documentation code examples should be real code working with the current Lift version. Preferably example code should be part of the build pass tests.

- Documentation could have links to relevant core Lift tests (if manageable)

The overall layout could include some main sections:

- API (Links to Scala docs)

- Getting started (installation, Hello world etc)

- Manual (progressive teaching in chapters with more and more advancing topics, as in books)

- Tutorials

- Recipes

There could be a main landing splash page like http://slick.lightbend.com/docs/ (although with a nicer design :-)

Other examples of documentation sites that people like/been satisfied with?

There is also the questions of wether it might be time to consider making a whole new website for Lift - maybe one that has the documentation at its core to start out with...?

This was just my 2 cents - hope more will come with some ideas.

Cheers,

Marc

[Marc Grue]

Sounds great! Looking forward

[Henrik Härkönen]

The overall layout could include some main sections:

- API (Links to Scala docs)

- Getting started (installation, Hello world etc)

- Manual (progressive teaching in chapters with more and more advancing topics, as in books)

- Tutorials

- Recipes

There could be a main landing splash page like http://slick.lightbend.com/docs/ (although with a nicer design :-)

Other examples of documentation sites that people like/been satisfied with?

Way back when I was learning Python, the doc landing page was really my first point of contact, daily. It's very simple, but somehow it manages to capture the essentials, what ever I was looking for each time. It 's just like the sections you described above. It has just the right amount of choices, it's not too busy and doesn't make you panic. :D It seems the page hasn't changed much since, so people must still be content with that.

https://docs.python.org/

It think it would be a very good idea to keep the docs in the heart of the distribution, have it even copied in the starter templates or something. Kind of reminds me of the Python philosophy "comes with batteries included". :)

-Henrik

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Don't have time to elaborate too much, but net-net:

 - We have a design for a new site; some very early work towards it is at https://github.com/lift/lift-site-playground .

 - Need to actually get the source files of the design up somewhere.

 - I've thought of a few of these things extensively and have some ideas

   on them as a result. I've attached a few photos of my notebook with some

   of the raw information on that front. One of them is thoughts for how we

   might rework the API docs to be a little nicer (but that's longer term).

Thanks,

Antonio

[Nathaniel Ford]

I just want to say that I'd be very excited to lend support, particularly in helping to editing and polish any documentation. As a relative newcomer to Lift but a long-time enthusiast of great documentation I'd be willing to pitch in where-ever was needed.

Separately, that how-to-write-great-documentation link and it's associated readings is *fantastic*. Thanks so much for calling that out!

Nathaniel Ford

[Diego Medina]

Hi Nathaniel,

Comments below:

I just want to say that I'd be very excited to lend support, particularly in helping to editing and polish any documentation. As a relative newcomer to Lift but a long-time enthusiast of great documentation I'd be willing to pitch in where-ever was needed.

In my opinion, the real help we need is this, someone to just go ahead and start writing documentation. Pick any base you feel is good, maybe adding markdown files to 

https://github.com/lift/framework/tree/master/docs

maybe adding more recipes to

http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/1234000000030

or adding pages to the wiki

https://app.assembla.com/wiki/show/liftweb

there is also simply lift

https://github.com/dpp/simply_lift

Pick one, stick to it and the things you don't know about, ask them on the mailing list and we'll answer them for you. 

I hope you can take this on, and remember, even if all you get to do for a while is adding one single page of documentation, that will be one more page we currently don't have, one more topic people will find in a central place, so every contribution helps.

Thanks

Diego

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[ari gold]

Hello again good people,

I've been thinking a lot about Lift's documentation. For years. Since there's a bit of momentum here, I'd like to see what we can't do. I hope to be brief but I want to cover some stuff. I suppose long-ish messages are a benefit of a mailing list :)

In short, I think we need to have a more organized and focused effort to documentation.

That is, I think community efforts should be focused. Not one person updating a few docs here and there. Not a few people doing a few things, but a few people doing one thing.

Or -- as per the OP -- if we're going to have a bounty of documentation tasks, we should have an organized set of tasks and direction.

Lift should have a central place for documentation. Like basically every other library or framework out there. Sure, folks can write whatever they want and blog about things. But I think that like other libraries we should have a central place.

Is that liftweb.net?

That question actually ties into a more holistic question: where is Lift? 'cause that website needs updating. I don't mean (just) aesthetically. I mean that there are broken links and other simple improvements. For example, the link to Joy Reyes (in "design by Joy Reyes") is broken.

If that's the case: who's in charge of liftweb.net? How do we update it? Is there a way to offer PRs for updates to liftweb.net? I don't think so but I'm askin'.

I'm all for spending actual time on documentation and, in a larger context, the public face of Lift. I just want to make sure that our effort is unified. Tbh, I don't know how other decent libraries organize the development and maintenance of their public face (including documentation). I mean within their communities. I just know that we need to update liftweb.net (if we're going to go with liftweb.net being our main site). Because if we're going to provide "Simply Lift" as a main source of documentation, we should ad a caveat somewhere that says something like "Hello folks. Yes, Simply Lift was last updated on Sept 8, 2011. That said, it's our most up to date document. A new one should be out in ________." (Yes, there's Exploring Lift too, but Simply Lift is what's in the dropdown on liftweb.net for Resources.)

I'm sure y'all get the point.

Personally, it's taken a bit, but I know now how awesome Lift is. Ergo, I'm all shits n' giggles about helping. I just wanna help correctly.

How should we organize? Should we use Trello? Should we use Mindmeister? Or something else? Or simple start an email thread?

I was about to mention how if I don't hear from y'all, I'll probably start a public Trello board to lay out some tasks. At least then we'll have tasks to talk about (and reject, or improve, or execute). But I ain't mentioning that 'cause really, if we don't go with liftweb.net as our site, then we have bigger fish to fry. If liftweb.net ain't it, maybe it should be GitHub (like d3js.org) . 'course we still need to figure out what to do with liftweb.net (kill it or revive it) but at least then we'd be able to proceed with documentation.

I'll leave it at that. There'll be more. Kudos to you superstars,

Ari

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 8:44:47 AM UTC-7, Marc Grue wrote:

[Diego Medina]

the liftweb.net site is the main face and if you would like to contribute to it, this is the github repo

https://github.com/lift/cms_site

Thanks

Diego

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[Henrik Härkönen]

Hi Ari!

Good thinking there.

I think something like Trello would be useful. Usually it's easier to pick up tasks if they are split to smaller nuggets and somehow organized, especially if one's a novice. I don't have experience of any of these tools, but probably anything is better than none, though. :)

-Henrik

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Given the presence of a Github repo, it's perfectly worth using GH issues on the repo and

GH's new Projects functionality to manage them as desired, IMO.

Thanks,

Antonio

[Matt Farmer]

I'm preoccupied with moving today, but I still wanted to drop y'all a note and say that I love everything Ari said. My schedule has been crazy lately for many personal reasons - but I do find that I burn whatever time I have in just trying to figure out what to do. If we got something going that made it clear what the next valuable item on our various lists was, I'd probably be able to be a more useful committer. Haha. 

—
Matt Farmer | Blog | Twitter

GPG: CD57 2E26 F60C 0A61 E6D8  FC72 4493 8917 D667 4D07

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[Henrik Härkönen]

Ok that GH's Projects tab was something I haven't noticed before. Would be perfect to have the functionality as close as possbile to the repo.
Trello seems to be more visual tool maybe, suitable for all kind of other projects as well, but I guess in this line of business GH's kanban-like board
would suffice just fine. :)

-Henrik

[Peter Petersson]

As a better GH alternative to Trello (if you are in to the board thingy) I would recommend https://waffle.io/ it is a free project management solution powered by Github Issues & Pull Requests. It's used by many Github projects, but as Antonio mentions there is now also GH Projects.

best regards Peter Petersson 

--

[Marc Grue]

Great to see so much input! Have been unavailable for some days, sorry.

Ideally I would like to have documentation living in a subfolder within the lift/framework repo. But since only core committers can commit there, that seems to be unviable. A downside of this approach would also be that it would "pollute" the commitment history with trivial documentation updates. So this idea is probably to be buried.

Great to see you sketches, Antonio! It's obvious that there are already a lot of thoughts ready to materialize there :-) I also really like Ari's ideas.

A lot of good work has gone into previous documentation. If David would allow Simply Lift to be used in some updated form for version 3.0 on a new website that would be some awesome foundation to continue from I think! Maybe the content could be merged into one manual with the content from the Liftweb demo and possible other current sources? License issues need to be cleared first of course. Maybe other sources might "chip in"? (Cookbook, others...?).

In another project I have noticed how I can easily become too relaxed if my documentation code examples are just written as part of a markup file. They become kind of "dead" and are really not that inspiring to write. Whereas if the example code is live/real, then seeing the tests passing green is much more satisfying. Another dreadful bi-effect of using dead example code is the pitfall of using too many words instead (now that the code is dead anyway). For the documentation to thrive and develop I think we need to find a setup that allows and encourages extensive use of live integrated and tested code examples! It would also help us detect documentation getting out of sync with new Lift versions.

I agree that it could be worth trying using GH Projects to "stay within one eco-system" where also the List framework itself lives (even though Waffle, MindMeister, Trello, Wrike or others might offer cool alternative options). Antonio, what if you opened a project in lift-site-playground that we could all access? Then we could experiment/brainstorm ideas there and also see if it could work as a platform for maintaining a community site for lift...

Cheers,

Marc

[ari gold]

Woohoo!

Great to hear.. loooovin' where this is going.

I don't personally care which tool we use to better organize. Most of 'em'll do the job. Seems like only repo admins can create GitHub projects... maybe once an admin creates it, others can edit? Hmm. I wonder.

I dig Marc's idea about opening a project on lift-site-playground, but I'm guessing it'd be a pain in Antonio's neck if he had to be in charge of the todo list. I also dig making "extensive use of live integrated and tested code examples" which is what Antonio's going for too (I think). That'd be some damn nice documentation :)

I do think it's worth spending some time planning before jumping right in with PRs. Speaking of PRs, I'm still not sure: Is liftweb.net the right place for Lift's online home? While I've used Lift for a few years, I'm fairly new to this list.. are a bunch of y'all members of WorldWide Conferencing, LLC? I'm wondering about ownership n'all.. both legally and otherwise. Just to make sure everyone's happy.

I think those notebook pics are off the hook fantastic. Looooots in there. Making 'em a reality will take a lil while but I'm all about slow and steady wins the race.

Rock on,

Ari

PS. Clicking around the cms site on GitHub (thanks Diego!) I noticed that there might be another useful avenue of communication. Might be good to keep in mind.

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

liftweb.net is Lift's online home, yes. That's where the cms site goes. WorldWide Conferencing, LLC is

the company that holds Lift's intellectual property for legal purposes.

Note that projects are just a layer on top of issues. So please feel free to start creating documentation

issues to your heart's content—I can try and keep things organized as time permits. Make sure to tag

said issues as documentation though. Organizing them into projects is really just about setting up the flow

of the issue from start to completion. Happy to hear ideas on what that flow might look like for docs. That

can be discussed here—actually creating the project won't be hard, it's just a few columns.

I would suggest any discussion around the docs stick to the main list (doesn't have to be this thread—probably

shouldn't be) and the lift/framework gitter channel, rather than trying to go per-repo. Scattering discussion is

usually an effective way to kill it, and if we see the volume is too high we can revisit.

It's also worth noting that the question of documentation and the question of the site are rather distinct.

The site ideally hosts the documentation, but if there's no documentation to host it's a moot point. I would

humbly suggest that the community's efforts are better focused on documentation than on changes to the

site, in terms of where help would be most productive and where the most daunting task lies. Of course,

everyone contributes their time where they can.

Actually planning the content of the docs is probably something that can be started ad-hoc here on the

list (probably in a separate thread), and can be elaborated on either on the wiki, or perhaps in an adoc

file in the doc/ directory via PR. The latter would give some opportunity for per-line comments and such.

Thanks,

Antonio

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Months later, but I do have an update here… Rather than sitting on it, I've pushed my

draft version of the first sections the tutorial I was sitting on.

It lives @ https://github.com/lift/framework/tree/early-tutors/docs/getting-started-tutorial,

for now. I'll try and put some work in over the coming days and weeks, as it's… Pretty

rough right now heh.

Thanks,

Antonio

[ari gold]

Wow! Good on ya!

Speaking of months later, it feels like high time to squeak some more cycles out of my busy-ness to get the site redesign at least moving slowly along. 'prolly need somewhere to put all this tutorial stuff, right?

Ari

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[Riccardo Sirigu]

Awesome, thank you Antonio!

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

I don't mind it continuing to live in that docs/ folder, but it'll be even better

exposed elsewhere :) Of note, the redesign won't be a blocker for that, though

telegram's support for asciidoc might be.

Thanks,

Antonio

Ari

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[Marc Grue]

Great, Antonio! Thanks.

How would you suggest us to contribute with errata/additions/ideas/questions? I imagine having a separate GitHub project with pull-request access for all would be a usable eco system to use?

Is the future of the lift website another track for now or do you have some grand plan? :-)

Cheers,

Marc

Antonio

Ari

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[Marc Grue]

Duh,

Realised that you had answered exactly those questions a few posts before:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/liftweb/JzeN5IOlLVs/6C1Bns9-AwAJ

Will open a separate thread for some questions...

Cheers,

Marc

[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Awesome! :)

Antonio

[Simon Redfern]

Hi All,

Back in the day, one of the really cool things about *cough* PHP, was the way they allowed anyone to add code examples and comments to the bottom of any documentation page (with a good old database insert i guess). IMO is should be really easy to add real world examples and get a debate going around them. Lift is great but the documentation is probably still too spread around and accedemic.

We (TESOBE / Open Bank Project) would be happy to support such an effort to some extent!

cheers,

Simon.

[ti com]

docs.scala-lang.org has had disqus on its pages for that purpose. They recently had issues with it showing ads so they switched to discourse instead, which they've been using as a forum anyway, but currently it seems broken.

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[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Using discourse in some way has been on my list of interesting things for some

time. However, the Lift repo does not meet the stars minimum for discourse to be

offered us for free, so it's likely out of the question for now... Unless a lot of folks

come out of the woodwork and star the repo who hadn't before haha. I know I don't

typically star repos.

Thanks,

Antonio

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[Matt Farmer]

Or someone donates enough money to run a small discourse server yes?

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[Diego Medina]

Would this mean we are killing this mailing list and moving to discourse?

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[Matt Farmer]

I think in any event we would preserve mailing list functionality. My understanding is that Discourse should support interaction entirely though email once the app is set up. But yeah, we would potentially leave google groups if we started a Discourse server.

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Diego Medina
Lift/Scala Consultant
di...@fmpwizard.com

https://blog.fmpwizard.com/

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[Antonio Salazar Cardozo]

Because you used the present tense I think it's worth making it clear that we aren't

currently doing anything :) If we were to introduce discourse, we could also kill the

mailing list and lean on discourse's email integration, which as Matt mentioned is

supposed to be quite good. Or, we could see if there's a way to maintain synchronization

between ML and discourse. Or, we could use discourse for some sort of discussions

on documentation, while not turning off the ML for general discussion, at least initially.

Either way we'd discuss it here first.

Notably, one of the reasons PHP's “leave a comment here with your thoughts” approach

works well is because PHP has a very large community. The smaller the community,

the more likely you end up with outdated or outright incorrect remarks. Additionally, for

a small community, something like that serves to spread the knowledge out over space

instead of leaving it concentrated in one place.

That said, the countering principle is that any contribution is better than no contribution,

and having it go through a discourse server would allow the discussions to at least all be

accessible in one place, even if they're also linked in the documentation.

Thanks,

Antonio