Trump vs Cruz

[Jaco Strauss]

You guys still haven't explained why Trump had more in common with libertarians than Cruz

That wall just got three feet higher; and Cruz will pay for it

Jokes aside, I like Cruz vowing to abolish the IRS and go with a low flat tax rate. That alone would have won my support over as I TrusTed a little more on trying to deliver on his policies. I believe he has a better chance to get a flat taxrate through than Trump would have of getting Mexico to pay for a garden fence.

But between Trump and Hillary I would always vote against Hillary

J

2016-03-16 15:08 GMT+01:00 Frances Kendall <fken...@mac.com>:

> I don't know why you say ha ha - Obama has been hugely constrained by Congress. I think Trump is mentally unstable with a god delusion - therefore unusually dangerous re war.
> You guys still haven't explained why Trump had more in common with libertarians than Cruz.
>
> Sent from Frances iPhone
>
>> On 16 Mar 2016, at 3:55 PM, Julian le Roux <leroux...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> @Frances, if you think Trump is more dangerous than Clinton (especially with respect to foreign policy and American military imperialism), then I rest my case.
>>
>> " but both would work within the constraints of the American democratic system "
>>
>> Hahahahahahahaha. Ha ha.
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Jaco Strauss
Kaapstad

[Stephen van Jaarsveldt]

I still don't see how Cruz is even in the running, so you might as well say that Leon or Julian or Erik are more libertarian than Trump...

Regarding the wall... he had better build it North of El Norte as per my earlier map... in fact, it would be better for all involved if they let El Norte (Northern Mexico, Southern California, Southern New Mexico, Southern Colorado and South-East Texas) secede and form a new state. That is likely to happen anyway over the next 50 years or so and will make the wall redundant. You don't go putting a wall down the middle of a nation - which is what would happen if he put the wall down the current border with Mexico.

S.

[Jaco Strauss]

Hi Stephen, for what is is worth the one American had this comment

The Libertarian presence in the so-called Far West is overblown, unless the only Libertarian issue is weed. Beyond that they're#BERNTARDED socialists through and through.
And more of California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico belong to El Norte than this map shows.

While another offered this viewpoint

 I think this race, assuming Hillary is the Democrat candidate, will boil down to the candidate the unions side with.

[Frances Kendall]

@Stephen, Cruz could win a contested election. 

If your reason for supporting Trump is because you think Hilary is worse - I think Cruz would have a better chance of b sting her - and Kasig - who might also win a majority in a contested convention the best chance of all.

Sent from Frances iPhone

[Hügo Krüger]

Cruz is even less popular among repunlicans and I do not see him making any grounds against clinton.

[Frances Kendall]

Hugo, The point of this thread is should libertarians support Trump? He is clearly not libertarian- the answer on these threads is Hilary is worse - so I say surely libertarians must prefer Cruz? On what evidence is he less popular among republicans than Trump? The "Stop Trump" movement regards him as a better option. I don't think Trump or Cruz can win against Hilary - but at least the Republicans might close ranks behind Cruz -  and he might not bring out the same numbers for Hilary that Trump will. How can the republican mainstream close ranks around Trump after their own attack ads against him?

Sent from Frances iPhone

[Colin Phillips]

It seems the choices are :
Trump - literally Hitler
Clinton - literally even more Hitler, apparently
Cruz - some guy that gets yelled at by Trump

Why not add
Johnson - a libertarian, nogal
to the mix, too?

Given that very few of us on this list can vote in the US elections anyway, we may as well not-vote for a guy who at least calls himself a libertarian, no?

#FeelTheJohnson

Colin

[Stephen vJ]

Those are good comments. Thanks. There are number of books on this, the one I read being the most conducive to audiobook format... most based on demographics from a few years back, so El Norte could most likely be bigger. The author of the book I read also mentions that even though libertarian is a dominant trait of the far West, it is by no means a libertarian model; there is a very strong anti-large-corporate sentiment almost most than a smaller government sentiment. So you may call it more libertarian, but that just means it is noticeably more libertarian than the rest... which could mean it has 10% of people being libertarian as opposed to 3% elsewhere. The other 90% is still human.

S.

Sent from an electronic device.

[Stephen vJ]

The moment Cruz or Carson or whoever else becomes a serious contender, I would support them, for sure. Currently I think that is like saying Ernie Els can still win this round of golf if he has hole-in-ones on all three remaining holes. Sure, it is possible... I'm not putting money on it at this point.

S.

Sent from an electronic device.

[Colin Phillips]

The question is not who will win, it is who libertarians should support. I agree that Johnson doesn't seem to have much chance, but so what? I bet in Ancient Rome there was at least one anti slavery senator. Just because he'd never become Emperor doesn't stop him from being the most worthy of support. Seems to me that the only advantage that Cruz has is that he's not Trump. Johnson is also not Trump, plus he's a libertarian. Why is that not enough to sway the libertarians?

[Stephen vJ]

Well, by that logic you should support me or Jaco.

#VanJaarsveldtForPotus

S.

Sent from an electronic device.

On 16 Mar 2016, at 22:22, Colin Phillips <noid...@gmail.com> wrote:

The question is not who will win, it is who libertarians should support. I agree that Johnson doesn't seem to have much chance, but so what? I bet in Ancient Rome there was at least one anti slavery senator. Just because he'd never become Emperor doesn't stop him from being the most worthy of support. Seems to me that the only advantage that Cruz has is that he's not Trump. Johnson is also not Trump, plus he's a libertarian. Why is that not enough to sway the libertarians?

--

[Colin Phillips]

Stephen, I would support you over Trump without hesitation. Johnson has the miniscule advantage of actually being on the ballot, but given that I can't vote in the US elections anyway, I will overlook that technicality.

[Stephen vJ]

While we're at it, we should seriously consider supporting Gary Kasparov, former chess champion, for potus.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/03/15/russian-chess-master-garry-kasparovs-harsh-critiques-of-bernie-sanders-and-socialism/

S.

Sent from an electronic device.

[Trevor Watkins]

Trump is easy to hate. He is a brash braggart, the epitome of a school yard bully, and a rich bastard to boot. But is he a better choice than Hillary? 

1. He defends American property rights, by proposing to build a wall to keep out foreigners and undesirables. What South African has not built a wall for the same purpose? What libertarian would not do the same?

2.  He opposes immigration from countries and peoples whose leaders have declared their undying hatred of all things American. Makes sense to me.

3. He proposes a much reduced and simplified tax code. Sounds good.

4. He publicly and loudly opposes the war in Iraq and calls the WMD story a lie. That takes courage, and honesty.

5.  He proposes a tariff on imported goods to protect American jobs. Oh well, 4 out of 5 ain't bad.

Once I get past his offensive personality and awful hair, I begin to understand what Americans like about him. I think he is enough of a chameleon to change significantly if he gets into office (for better or worse), but I think he has a real shot, while I don't think any of the other pantywaist Republican candidates stand a chance against attack-dog Hillary.

Trevor Watkins 

[Frances Kendall]

Are you aware he is also very keen on eminent domain Trevor? 

Sent from Frances iPhone

[Garth Zietsman]

Trevor the wall across the border is not a defense of property rights.  In fact it stands in the way of my right to hire or rent property to foreigners.

[Jaco Strauss]

 In fact it (the wall) stands in the way of my right to hire or rent property to foreigners.

You can already hire or rent to (legal) foreigners, wall or not. The proposed wall therefore won't stand in your way Garth; the current border and laws of the land already does that.

If it is legal open borders you want, I doubt you are going to find any politician in support of that. Probably not even Gary Johnson 

Jaco Strauss
Kaapstad

[Trevor Watkins]

Most walls stand in somebody's way. That is their point. 

We are talking in the context of Trump as president of the USA under the current laws. I do believe the American government is entitled to build stuff to protect citizens, ill-advised as it may be. That is also the point of walls around prisons.

Aside from the libertarians, is there any candidate opposed to eminent domain, including Hillary?

Trevor Watkins

[Garth Zietsman]

Ya I do see the broader scheme to restrict legal immigration as an infringement on my liberty. A wall signals an intention to keep legal immigration spots to a tiny fraction of the demand.

[Jaco Strauss]

Again, it is perception rather than facts.

Trump himself is the product of recent immigrants; his paternal grandparents were German Trumpfs and he even married an immigrant. I have heard him state in a debate or speech that he favours more of the kind of immigration that America needs. But not the current chaotic type.

Having said that, Cruz goes further and I have even heard him make some quite shocking anti legal immigration statements. About how (legal) immigration kills American jobs, etc. At least Trump has a long history of employing immigrants, legal and otherwise. He has even paid fines for employing illegals himself. But yes, clearly nothing seems to stick to Mr Teflon ;-)

A reason for this could be that he is unapologetic. If Hillary called Romney a sexist he would take out ads to counter it and employ more senior female staff. She accused Trump of it and he retorted with something like: "Hell, if I am a sexist what does she call her husband?" And that was that LOL. 

Would be great to see a circus showdown between those two. I just hope the right monkey finishes up on top.

J

[Garth Zietsman]

Jaco right now the betting market says it isn't looking good for the GOP candidate.

[Jaco Strauss]

Indeed. But it looks even worse if that candidate has to square off against Bernie

[Garth Zietsman]

Bernie is very unlikely to be the Democrat candidate but if he was it would the battle of the populists.

[Frances Kendall]

??

If you mean Hilary — I think the betting market is looking very good for her.

[Jaco Strauss]

Yes, what I am saying it is looking bad for Trump against Hillary, but it looks even worse for him in the unlikely event that he had to face off against Bernie.

Bernie doesn't have all the negative history and baggage of Hillary. Hers goes all the way back to Whitewater and probably beyond

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitewater_controversy

J