Digital Scope for the Space - Funding

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Hello all,

As you may know a proper, modern digital scope is becoming increasingly important for electronics projects at the Hackspace.  So, I am initiating a funding drive for the hackspace to buy a proper oscilloscope as originally proposed in the AGM.

Right now, we have enough for the Rigol DS1054Z with the help of the Hackspace and a member, but if we can pull together another £112, we can get ourselves the Rigol DS1074Z-S Plus which adds some extra very useful features like a 16-channel logic analyser and a 2-channel 25MHz arbitrary digital signal generator.

There's a public spreadsheet here - if you can chip in, please add your pledge to the sheet. All payments to be made to the Hackspace directly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RTnUqE17MlyXDFGjUsNFCahRm_5cxMGLBHh3Lt7CX_w/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks!

[Daniel Fligg]

£60 left to find =)

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[Samwise Wilson]

Want me to do some price-foo on the telephone?

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

Nice work everyone, I leave it an hour or so and we've only got to find the last £42 or so. Or £1,743 for the full nuclear option of the Keysight scope.

[Stanto]

Peter Clark on the Hackspace Facebook page was asking about a digital oscilloscope, so they may be tempted to chip in once they navigate across.

[Stanto]

Looks funded!

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 09:40:42 UTC+1, Tom Oldbury (Email #2) wrote:

[Samwise Wilson]

Mcs have it in stock for £474 + free shipping.

[Michael W]

Great to see the funding.

Sam - Can i just check if this £474 price is the "Rigol DS1074Z-S Plus", not one of the many other variants? was it a cheaper quote directly from MCS? because its listed on their website as £593 ex VAT, £711.60 inc VAT.

Note: As i understand it, "Rigol DS1074Z-S PLUS" gives a 70MHz bandwidth, 4 analog channels + passive probes, with built-in 2 channel function / arbitrary waveform generator. PLUS means it has the option for upgrading to 16 digital channels, effectively making it the MSO scope. Requires purchase of external logic probes RPL1116 extra cost £235 inc VAT. Unless MCS are throwing them in for free which i doubt. On batronix website see accessories. Can't see them on MCS. I don't think i'd pay for the RPL1116 at the moment.

Having said that, i'd still buy Rigol DS1074Z-S Plus. Just wanted to be clear on what we're looking at.

Thanks
Michael

[Samwise Wilson]

Oh that price is for the non -S Plus. The -S plus will work out to be £661.79 + voucher. (Unless its under education pricing)

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

My plan for the MSO version is to look into building our own probe head (hence the MSO being upgradeable.) The scope contains the 3.3V input buffers between the FPGA and the connector, and the software should be enabled to support this. All we need to do is find the connector to mate it up and maybe build a small PCB with some high speed comparators on it for variable voltage levels etc.

I think we would like the -S version for the signal generator because that would be an extremely handy feature to have and it requires some specific built in hardware. If we don't need that and we don't need MSO then we might as well just get the DS1054Z. There is no DS1054Z with a signal generator or MSO function.

Is the price you have been quoted for the DS1074-S Plus inclusive of VAT? I don't know if we can reclaim the VAT with the Hackspace being a limited company?

[Aidan Dunbar]

What's an MSO/probe head and what does it do?

The Space does not turn over enough to be VAT registered, therefore I don't believe we can claim back VAT. (Matt C, please correct me if wrong).

Aidan

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[Matt C]

We are not VAT registered as our turnover is under £83k so we can't claim it back.

[Will Newton]

It is possible to register for VAT with any turnover, the £83k
threshold is the point where you MUST register for VAT.

[Matt Collins]

Yep. It's probably more hassle than it is worth though, we would need to start charging VAT on all our income streams in order that we had something to offset the VAT expenditure against.

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[Will Newton]

Yes it's almost always more hassle than it's worth and involves doing
a VAT return etc., best avoided if possible.

[Samwise Wilson]

Yes it includes VAT, here is my process:

1. Phone supplier

2. Ask for a lower price

Regards,

Samwise

[Matt C]

I am not quite clear on the process can you explain it in a bit more detail please.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

I think you're missing step 3 (...) and step 4 (Profit!)

[Samwise Wilson]

In any case, let me know whats going on and I can give them a ring. The relationship is there now.

However, I would say go for the cheaper one, we can always get a better one if its needed. 

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

The probe head converts the logic level signals to the levels the scope requires, usually by means of high speed comparator. The head also includes the protection hardware to prevent high voltages damaging the scope. It's £200+ from Rigol, I'm thinking we could do much better.

There's not a version with a signal generator but without MSO anymore, as far as I can tell. There are used ones available though.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Are you suggesting the DS1054Z or the DS1074S-Plus?

I think it is definitely worth getting the Plus model, and we have the funding to do so.

[Michael W]

Hi

Updated the spreadsheet with Samwises pricing (thanks sam) £661.79 inc vat + voucher

Since i was recently on ebay thinking of buying a sig gen for the space and now don't need to if we get this scope because its built in, i've put that money towards the Rigol DS1074Z-S PLUS version.

So we are now fully funded on the DS1074Z-S PLUS version.

Tom - I think making the external logic probe head attachment and publishing its details open source would be excellent advertisement for the space and good fun:) Unless someones done it already?!? I can't see any details online. Give me a heads up someday and we can take a look at some plans.

Also added an image of the external logic probe head attachment to the bottom of the spreadsheet if anyones interested (the one we're thinking of making, not buying).

Thanks
Michael

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Sam...I don't understand where the price of £661 came from. The Lambda price is much more reasonable @ £527 VAT inc (standard shipping free.) This does NOT include the probe head, but the scope still has the hardware port + signal generator.

http://www.lambdaphoto.co.uk/test-instrumentation/test-measurement/digital-oscilloscopes/rigol-ds1074z-plus-70mhz-1gsa-s-4-channel-digital-oscilloscope-mso-ready.html

Tom - I think making the external logic probe head attachment and publishing its details open source would be excellent advertisement for the space and good fun:) Unless someones done it already?!? I can't see any details online. Give me a heads up someday and we can take a look at some plans. 

I've not found anyone who's tried. I'd love to take this project on; I think the only issue will be finding the connector but I doubt it's custom, looks just like some kind of DB-style connector. Pinout may require disassembly to determine, but the warranty sticker is easily lifted without voiding if we need to go that route. (Hot air or steady hand and knife will do it...)

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Actually, I just noticed that I was linking to the non -S version... so actually Sam's price is suddenly a lot more reasonable!

Carry on.

[Samwise Wilson]

Why don't we get the cheaper one first then if we need a better one we can have two? 

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Because that would cost considerably more (at least £300 more) than just buying the better model straight away, which has features we can use, like the DDS and MSO. 

[Michael W]

If we're not all sure about the purchase. I suggest we take this offline, have a chat about options, prices and merits of each on Tuesday? 

Samwise/Tom/anyone else interested are you available this Tuesday 19th April to discuss?

Thanks

Michael

[Stanto]

I thought we were going for the Plus. If we're not then I'll reduce my pledge because it was enough to put it into the bracket to afford it.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

I am available to chat on Tuesday.

I too believed the Plus was the choice option...

[Michael W]

Samwise Will you be available on Tuesday night to discuss any concerns you have or is this no longer an issue? Either way we need to discuss who hits the button and makes the purchase.
Michael

[Samwise Wilson]

£594.86 Inc vat, 15% discount.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

OK, so what scope is that for?

We are going for the DS1074Z-S Plus *OR* the MSO1074Z-S, with the latter being preferred. Note, we can also upgrade to the DS1104Z-S Plus or MSO1104Z-S if for some reason they have those options at a lower price (clearance or special offers maybe.)

Ideally, the scope would come with 4 probes and a standard 3-year warranty (when I purchased from Lambda I got these included at no extra cost.)

Thanks,

[Samwise Wilson]

The one you wrote on the paper.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

There were two scopes written on that little bit of paper, so it would be good to know which that refers to and what options we get with it (warranty, probes, etc.)

I can call a few suppliers on Thursday and Friday to see what price we can get for the various options. This game of telephone is muddying the waters with what exactly we can get and how much it will cost (no offence intended!)

[Samwise Wilson]

There is one scope on the bit paper, the DS1074Z-S PLUS. Like I said before, price reductions range from 3-20% dependant on educational pricing, supplier or rigol deals. I would also you suggest you get the cheapest one possible rather than feature creep through peoples pledges and hackspace pledge. 

[Michael W]

To avoid confusion. I just gave Samwise the number of the scope we've been talking about buying.
DS1074Z-S PLUS

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Huh, OK. My mistake then, I'm thought I wrote two down but maybe I didn't.

I think the decision we made with Michael yesterday was to get the more advanced model because:

a) we have contributions from members to make up the cost, and

b) we don't have to spend money later to buy these things (or buy another scope later with these features)

Obviously, the disadvantage is that the scope is more expensive it is a bigger loss if it gets broken.  However, the scope will be covered by a 3-year warranty provided by Rigol Europe, and we should have a basic safety induction before anyone can use the expensive scope (or in fact any scope?)  I will draft up a basic induction document before the scope arrives.

It is quite hard to blow up a modern DSO. Even the cheapest Rigol ('1054Z) has a surge rating of 1kV on all four analog channels, and a continuous operating voltage of 300V above ground and being category 1 rated, the channels are each referenced to ground, so any fault current should pass through the ground path, making a loud bang and shutting off the lights but not actually damaging the scope (the small ground lead and probe coax could be damaged but these are relatively inexpensive.)

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

I've put together a simple induction checklist, comments welcome.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RFz_rq3x6IZ0VjV14xvQ3zR-nZiko0xTwClO-8097-o/edit?usp=sharing

I would suggest we pick a few competent members to do inductions and until then the scope is off limits.   I will volunteer to do inductions.

Tom

[Michael W]

Sorry if there's some confusion here. The more expensive MSO version mentioned is an extra £200. So even with a discount we don't have enough. I wasn't trying to imply we should buy that one. Merely commenting on its existence.

We're good to go with DS1074Z-S PLUS from my perspective at samwises latest quote of £594.86 inc vat. Well done Samwise for the quote and all for the fundraising.

Samwise. Please indicate when it will be purchased and we can start transferring pledges.

Michael

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

*poke*. What's happening with this? Samwise?

[Samwise Wilson]

Pledges into hackspace and then we will process the invoice.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Same account as for membership 40-27-15 24661583?

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

I've sent the payment off to the account xx583.

How many pledges are still due?

[Taimur Khan]

Paid just now

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[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Good stuff, 

According to the spreadsheet Michael, Chris, Samwise and Aidan are yet to mark as paid.

If any of you are paid up please make a note here and mark your row green. Then we can buy the scope.

Thanks,

[Michael W]

Assuming £594.86 Inc vat is still the correct price, i reduced my pledge to match this price and transferred the pledge funds just now.

Michael

[Stanto]

Paid.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

Still waiting for Samwise and Aidan's payments to be marked off.

[Aidan Dunbar]

I marked as paid (and actually paid) yesterday. 

On 4 May 2016 at 12:54, Tom Oldbury (Email #2) <told...@gmail.com> wrote:

Still waiting for Samwise and Aidan's payments to be marked off.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Oh, my error, missed that. Thanks.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Samwise, I believe we are just awaiting your payment. Can you indicate if you have paid yet?

We should be able to process the invoice after this.

[Samwise Wilson]

yes

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Great, looks like we can get this all bought up then.

I guess the next steps is someone needs to call up MCS and get the scope ordered - I'd volunteer but I don't have access to the bank account to make the payment.

[Daniel Fligg]

If someone can give me a phone number, price and order code I'll get it bought tomorrow :)

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[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

For MCS, +44 (0)8453 62 63 65 is the number, though that's premium rate, I think.

I've dealt with Joy Torres of MCS before for my previous scope, her direct dial (office) is +44 (0)1492 553 796. She was able to get me a good price so I can recommend her. I don't know who Samwise talked to or if Joy can match the quote he got. 

The item is "DS1074Z-S Plus", it must be "Plus" and it must be "-S". According to Samwise final price is £594.86 inc VAT after 15% discount. 

[Daniel F]

Samwise; care to weigh in before I try and do anything please?

[Samwise Wilson]

Just say you are from the hackspace and they should apply what they have available! 

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

I'll be away until this Friday. What's the status of the scope purchase?

Thanks

[Stanto]

People are currently knee-deep in moving Hackspace, it would be good to have a timeline on when this will be bought, though. It was funded before the moving was confirmed. Unless the move has now absorbed the funds.

On Monday, 11 April 2016 21:36:08 UTC+1, Tom Oldbury (Email #1) wrote:

Hello all,

As you may know a proper, modern digital scope is becoming increasingly important for electronics projects at the Hackspace.  So, I am initiating a funding drive for the hackspace to buy a proper oscilloscope as originally proposed in the AGM.

Right now, we have enough for the Rigol DS1054Z with the help of the Hackspace and a member, but if we can pull together another £112, we can get ourselves the Rigol DS1074Z-S Plus which adds some extra very useful features like a 16-channel logic analyser and a 2-channel 25MHz arbitrary digital signal generator.

There's a public spreadsheet here - if you can chip in, please add your pledge to the sheet. All payments to be made to the Hackspace directly.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RTnUqE17MlyXDFGjUsNFCahRm_5cxMGLBHh3Lt7CX_w/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks!

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

I think we should have it in place before 3.0 is alive and well, it would be really nice to lay out the electronic bench(es) properly and figure out the best layout there and then.

I have emailed directors to see what's happening per Joe's recommendation.

[Stanto]

The scope is here! :D

It's had a quick test by Tom and hopefully there'll be a blog post about it and inductions available by Tom in the future~~