Perpetual Motion Machine

[Andy51055]

On Light Night Leeds Uni had a display from their new (and largely unsorted) Science  museum. One of the prime exhibits was a stunningly filthy 19th century painting. With the use of bright torches you could make out most of it and it turned out to be the design of a perpetual motion machine, with assorted cogs, pistons and suchlike that operated a fountain, a musical instrument of some kind and iirc something else slightly more useful. The uni haven't photographed it or cleaned it up, so don't really know how the machine is supposed to work, but they sounded very keen to know more about it.

Anyone interested, if we can get useable images of it, in helping make a model of it for the museum?

[J C]

Sounds interesting. I'd potentially lime to get involved yes.

On 3 Nov 2015 10:40 am, "Andy51055" <you...@51055.com> wrote:

On Light Night Leeds Uni had a display from their new (and largely unsorted) Science  museum. One of the prime exhibits was a stunningly filthy 19th century painting. With the use of bright torches you could make out most of it and it turned out to be the design of a perpetual motion machine, with assorted cogs, pistons and suchlike that operated a fountain, a musical instrument of some kind and iirc something else slightly more useful. The uni haven't photographed it or cleaned it up, so don't really know how the machine is supposed to work, but they sounded very keen to know more about it.

Anyone interested, if we can get useable images of it, in helping make a model of it for the museum?

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[Aidan Dunbar]

Yeah, I'd like to take a look at this, might be interesting.

A

[Andy51055]

Right, I'll get in touch with them and see about photographing it.

[Angus Taggart]

did you see this? HS people are interested in stuff from the museum

On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 10:49:08 +0000
J C <jap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yeah, I'd like to take a look at this, might be interesting.
>
> A
>
> On 3 November 2015 at 10:49, J C <jap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[Lawrence Molloy]

Hey guys 

I'm the artist in resident at the museum of the history of science technology and medicine. I'm in Germany this week, and were in Bradford the week after that I'll be in uni the week after that and can try and arrange a time with the director for you to come and have another look. While it's a really interesting thing I'm afraid the varnish has gone very brown overtime, So the only way I can think to get a really good look would be to photograph it with a very very long exposure and then enhance the image, Even in bright light it is incredibly hard to make out the image. 

It might also be worth noticing that the Yorkshire sculpture park used to have a petrol motion machine on the right hand side as you went in to the main visitor building, But I don't know if it's still there. It works by having a magnetic part to the wheel and then an electromagnet in the bass of the plinth which make the wheel appeared to spin continuously without any visible force placed upon it. 

The Gillenson room, where the painting is, is supposed to be open to the public Friday afternoon 2 till 4 PM but whether this will actually happen is yet to be seen. The director in the museum is called Mike Finn, (google him, he has a beard on this leeds uni page)  is a very nice but very busy man so will probably accommodating so long as you're clear as to what you want to do.

Hope this helps 

Regards

Lawrence 

[Samwise Wilson]

If anyone has access to a converted DSLR these are very useful for this type of imaging.

[Aidan Dunbar]

"Converted" as in it has had the IR cut filter removed?

On 4 November 2015 at 10:26, Samwise Wilson <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

If anyone has access to a converted DSLR these are very useful for this type of imaging.

[J C]

Nav might have something useful camera wise. He doesn't read the emails often. If anyone is on IRC now would you like to poke him in the direction of this?

Joe

[Daniel F]

Nav's equiptment isn't modified but I'll make sure he reads the thread. We've got a handful of togs who turn up at hackspace, so hopefully one of the others might see this too...

[Jon Stockill]

On 04.11.2015 10:34, J C wrote:
> Nav might have something useful camera wise. He doesn't read the
> emails often. If anyone is on IRC now would you like to poke him in
> the direction of this?

Lies! (I just get a LOT of mail).

Given the pic is already in a poor state, would they mind us blasting it
with a flash? If torches allow you to see some detail then long exposure
and flash might allow you to capture something.

--
Jon Stockill
li...@stockill.net

[Samwise Wilson]

Yes, or by chance if someone has one of the special wide-spectrum sensitive cameras from pentax, nikon or canon (UV to IR). Failing that, a well angled flash and polariser will work! 

[Andy51055]

I was thinking of mounting the camera on a tripod and taking multiple pictures with sections being lit by a bright torch as they did on light night. Then I can patch them all together and fiddle with the end result till it's useable.

[DrBwts]

I'm definitely interested in this :D

On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 10:40:21 AM UTC, Andy51055 wrote:

[Andy51055]

I've just emailed Mike Finn, the director of the museum, to see if he's ok with us doing this and to let us know when would be a good time to go and photograph the painting.

Do we have a better way of imaging it than illuminating sections (or the whole thing if they let me use my spots) and then using Photoshop to enhance it?

[Aidan Dunbar]

I work at the university and have access to studio flash heads from my department. If you give me enough notice I can come along to provide some high power light if it is allowed.

On 5 November 2015 at 11:18, Andy51055 <you...@51055.com> wrote:

I've just emailed Mike Finn, the director of the museum, to see if he's ok with us doing this and to let us know when would be a good time to go and photograph the painting.

Do we have a better way of imaging it than illuminating sections (or the whole thing if they let me use my spots) and then using Photoshop to enhance it?

--

[Andy51055]

Excellent! I'll post when Mike Finn gets back to me and we can try to arrange something.

[Andy51055]

I finally got to meet Mike Finn and photograph the beast today. He's very keen on us trying to do something with it, especially after linking him to the In Our Time (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06c06nd#play ) that explained why major scientists designed and built perpetual motion machines and that they play an important part in the history of science. Unfortunately both he and Lawrence are run off their feet so any further work with them will have to wait until the New Year. He did sort of say that if, once we've made it, we want to give it to the museum they may well pay us the cost of it. So we get the fun of making it and it costs us nothing.

Photographing it was not easy as there were reflections of the light from the windows, the overhead lights and me. I'm not sure how we get around this as bright lights will damage some of the other valuable exhibits in the room and removing the glass from the front is probably out of the question. I did get a couple that were worth playing with and the best one of the whole painting is here: http://www.51055.com/hackspace/perpetualrough1.jpg Most of the detail of the central part is fairly visible, but the mechanism on the right isn't as clear.

It appears that the flywheel on the right, which is driven by the weight W (I think), drives the central wheel via a chain. Somehow that moves the levers with the knobs on in and out and one of those transfers rotation to the clock/music box on the left via another chain. Fairly straightforward, really.
Or as the text on the picture explains:

A DESIGN FOR A SELF=PROPELLING POWER
By Robert Hainsworth, LEEDS, YORKSHIRE

TO SET THE MACHINE IN MOTION unloose the centre K then the wheel E will move towards D.
ABCD comprises the rack T which remains stationary.
UV are the pillars supporting the rack T.
From L to M are the six levers in their full extent.
From N to O are the six leverers pressed inwards.
W will move to HGF while E traverses ABCD.
When the balance weight W leaves F it will raise &: whence the levers YZ will raise the weight from J to I.
S marks the centre of gravity.
Thus when all the Weights, Springs and Levers are properly placed the result of the whole will be
A PERPETUAL MOTION.                          

Prior to the Machine being put in Motion the Balance weight must be placed at J and screw'd towards the centre until it will raise the same to I

FLY WHEEL performs 12(?) revolutions to the Driving Wheel's one.

This MUSIC and TIME PIECE derive their Motion from the Machine.
(and some text under the fountain which probably says something similar)

So, is it still feasible?

I'll continue to work on the picture and maybe try to draw a diagram of it in Illustrator to help work out what's going on.

[DrBwts]

\

[Andy51055]

You bugger! Well found! Was there any other info with the image, like who took the picture and if there is a larger version?



grumble grumble...next time I'll check the BBC before I start a project.

On Saturday, December 5, 2015 at 11:20:53 AM UTC, DrBwts wrote:

\

[Andy51055]

Photo credit: The Stanley & Audrey Burton Gallery, University of Leeds . So I'll have a word with them on Monday.

[Samwise Wilson]

I think there is alot more going on in that central mechanism; luckily the 2 major components are also depicted outside of the machine. i.e. the fist-y type things attached to gears I believe is interacting with the springs on the rods; two are shown under the machine and have large rods extending backwards. 

Also the thing at R seems to be locating runners for the central wheel, letting everything else pass over the top. Hence why they dont appear at 9-11pm. - and also providing the needed isolation for the fist-y things to spin around and do meaningful stuff to the rods.

[DrBwts]

:D Its the only version I could find but there is probably a higher resolution image where that came from.

I also found this British Society for the History of Science Conference proceedings where, a Michael Kay (a student from Leeds Uni at the time) presented a paper "Painting Perpetual Motion: The curious story of the Museum of History, Science and Technology's
most prominent artefact" (a copy of teh abstract below). He was attached to the museum so it might be possible to get a copy of this some how maybe ask Lawrence to have an ask around?

Painting Perpetual Motion: The curious story of the Museum of History, Science and Technology's most prominent artefact
Michael Kay

Abstract

This  paper  will  introduce  the  work  of  the  up and coming  student  and  staff  led  Museum  of  the  History  of Science  Technology  and  Medicine  at  the  University  of  Leeds  through  a  discussion  of  an item  into  which research  is  currently  ongoing,  an  oil  painting  in  the  university's  art  collection  depicting  a  perpetual  motion machine.  Examination of the painting will provide a window onto the museum's work, which will be detailed. The  search  for  perpetual  motion,  a  closed  system  producing  sufficient  energy  to  sustain its  own  motion indefinitely,   continued   through   the   nineteenth century. Many   inventors   remained   unperturbed by protestations  from  men  of  science  that  it  was  impossible.    This  paper  will  examine  why  this  machine  and  the painting  were  produced,  and  how  the  university  acquired  the  painting;  its  significance  for  the  museum  as  a piece of history of science and history of art will be evaluated.

Drawing on the work of writers such as Henry Dircks, Arthur W. J. G. Ord Hume and F. W. Westaway, this paper will  identify  the  tradition  from  which  this  machine  arose  and  consider  its  designer,  Robert  Hainsworth, including  his  relationship  to  the  Leeds  Philosophical  and  Literary  Society. The  story  will  be  augmented  by examinations of the contemporary periodical press.

[Andy51055]

Yes, from what I've been able to work out, the parts that look like knuckledusters are attached to gear wheels behind that only have teeth on half of their circumference. I suspect that they correspond to the teeth on the bars of the 'fistpumps'. So they would move outwards in steps until the teeth run out and then the springs would push them back to their original positions for the second half of the rotation.
If the rods underneath are examples rather than working parts they could be very useful for working out what's happening without them being obscured by the other mechanisms.

Still not sure what you mean about R and why they are missing for 9-11, but hopefully on Tuesday I'll have a clearer image and we can discuss it then.

[DrBwts]

I think they are rollers at R & around the rest of that circumference.

To me the central mechanism looks like its an attachment from the outer frame to the inner stationary frame UTV.

My suspicion at the moment is that the 'knuckle dusters' are counter weights for the rack & pinion arrangement on the weighted rods?

I'm still very confused about the fly wheel - lever mechanism though. Would it be possible to get a clearer shot of the '&JI'/bucket/lever/rod arrangement?

[Andy51055]

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 12:57:47 PM UTC, DrBwts wrote:

I'm still very confused about the fly wheel - lever mechanism though. Would it be possible to get a clearer shot of the '&JI'/bucket/lever/rod arrangement?

That's why I'm trying to get hold of a larger version of the picture on the BBC site as my photos show very little of the bottom right-hand corner. I went to the gallery today but they couldn't find any record of having that image, but put me on to the archivist for the university's art collection who will know where to find it apparently. I'll update when I get more news.

The text for the fly wheel mentions "When the balance weight W leaves F it will raise &: whence the levers YZ will raise the weight from J to I." which implies to me that it is gravity-driven. Hopefully a clearer image will explain it.

[Samwise Wilson]

I've worked out how the machine works, its a real breakthrough. I'm Uber rich now

Maybe I'll tell you maybe I won't...

Anyways. The kunckle dusters actually hold the rods in position until they interact with the top rack shlef, letting the drop only at the top position. This explains the semi-teethed wheels and interaction with spring.

[DrBwts]

Is there any indication of scale?

[Andy51055]

Not that I've been able to make out, so I've been assuming that it's life-size.

[Samwise Wilson]

Its somewhere between 4x the size of a fountain and tabletop. 

[DrBwts]

Is that Imperial or metric fountain?

[Jon Stockill]

On 12.12.2015 16:51, DrBwts wrote:
> Is that Imperial or metric fountain?

Also, how many fountains to the fuckton?

Or should a fountain be measured in pints?

--
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li...@stockill.net

[Andy51055]

The painting is from the 18th century, so before Our Glorious Empire and the French Inglorious Revolution, so it will be in Qbits.

[Matt Dyson (CuppaMatt)]

That depends, is this a metric fucktonne?

[DrBwts]

So who fancies a meet up to talk this thing through?

I'm willing to make a proper CAD model of this but I think we need a consensus on some points.

Anybody free this week before Xmas takes over my life?

Nic

[J C]

Yes I'm interested. Meet at open night or is another night better?

[Andy51055]

Yup, Tuesday's good for me too. I'll bring the largest, cleanest version of the picture I can make (the archivist at the University hasn't got back to me yet about the version on the BBC site).

[DrBwts]

Yes I can make Tuesday too.

Nic

[J C]

Courtesy of Andy http://www.51055.com/hackspace/pmmpics.html

On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:56 PM, DrBwts <drb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes I can make Tuesday too.

Nic

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[Andy51055]

Hopefully we can have a look at it again tonight and start to get things moving again (unless DrBwts has already started his CAD version)

[Aidan Dunbar]

With any luck the ball will keep rolling *perpetually*

;)

[DrBwts]

Havent made a start on the CAD model yet. We need to decide on the scale of things to start with. Not sure if I can make it down tonight.

Nic

[Andy51055]

I'm curious; why do we need a scale for this? Can't the scale of a CAD model be changed at any point with a simple setting change?

Anyway, there would seem to be two obvious scales; life-size to recreate the original contraption (if it was ever actually made) or the size of the finished model we want to produce.

We could assume that the painting is a 1:1 reproduction, in which case the outer diameter of the main 'wheel' is approximately 150cm and the whole 'table' that it's built into would be about 280cm.
I would suggest that we work to a scale for a model where the main 'wheel' has a diameter of 50cm and the whole 'table' would then be about 93cm.
Does this sound reasonable?

[J C]

Sounds reasonable but before we scale it down is it worth identifying the largest and smallest components and estimate to what extreams of scale we could create them?

So if there is an already tiny fiddly component then let's not make it impossibly small to recreate.

Have a quick chat about that tonight and get scale pinned down?

--

[Andy51055]

An excellent session last night, with Japoteg, me and Samwise (living up to his name), where we think we've worked out how it works.
The smallest parts look to be the 12 small wheels and knuckle-wheels around the large wheel. If we start with the large wheel at 500mm radius, these wheels will be around 30mm radius which should be workable and not too small to have working teeth on the knuckle-wheels.
DrBwts, I'll draw up the main components to that scale in Illustrator and send them over (would .eps be best format?) for you to import for the CAD model. Hopefully it will save you some time.

How it worked

The basic idea for the power generation is that the bars move in at the bottom and out at the top. This means that the weighted balls at the end are moving in a larger radius circle on the way down than on the way up. Therefore they are traveling further and faster on the way down. As momentum = mass x velocity (P=m x v), gravity gives the bars more momentum/energy on the way down.

The springs around the bars push the bars outwards at the top and the knuckle wheels and teeth on the wider section of the bars push them in at the bottom.

Ideas for the model:

The music box should work using a music box mechanism (i.e. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Crank-Music-Box-Movement-Craft-DIY-Mechanism-Let-it-Go-You-Are-My-Sunshine-/271701831953?var=&hash=item3f42b0f111:m:m8v4VXFAMFcc3KTFW0ug1zA) and we could make our own music strip for whatever tune we want (Still Alive?).
An old watch mechanism and face can be incorporated so that there are moving hands. Would a direct drive stop it being settable to the correct time (and does it matter)? Presumably it wouldn’t keep time anyway.

The base should be a box that hides the pipework for the fountain and the motor, which should be as invisible/silent as possible. The motor needs to be geared right down to somewhere around 15 rpm,

On the right-hand end of the box there should be an invisible button that is attached to a mechanism (as simple as a bar?) that rotates the head of the fountain so that instead of coming out of the top, the water sprays outward at a viewer. This is a nod to the popular 18th century trick at Versailles, The Winter Palace in St. Petersburg etc. where kings/tsars had hidden buttons to spray their courtiers from fountains. It may need to be lockable to prevent it being used in unsuitable locations where water could cause damage.

There must be a drain to get rid of water when not on display.
There must be a mechanism to disengage the music player or anyone working in the room with it will go insane.

[Andy51055]

The music box should work using a music box mechanism (i.e. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hand-Crank-Music-Box-Movement-Craft-DIY-Mechanism-Let-it-Go-You-Are-My-Sunshine-/271701831953?var=&hash=item3f42b0f111:m:m8v4VXFAMFcc3KTFW0ug1zA) and we could make our own music strip for whatever tune we want (Still Alive?). This would be done by removing the spoked barrel and either printing a new one or replacing it with a loop of paper like the one here: http://www.amazon.com/Kikkerland-Make-Your-Own-Music/dp/B000HAUEFY

[DrBwts]

Great stuff, file format can either be *.dxf or *.ai just make sure your units are in mm :)

Re, scale, as Joe pointed out we have to make sure the smallest component is manufacturable (shouldnt be a problem in this case) & also that the dynamics of the system are practical, in this case the change in angular momentum of the spokes is sufficient to maintain rotation.

From what you have said above the determining factors will be; the spoke length, the mass at the end of the spoke, the spring constant & the radial distance the spoke is allowed to travel.

[Andy51055]

While drawing it up I've realised that there is what it calls a 'rack' at ABCD which looks to be 4 bars going back that engage the knuckles and is what makes them turn 180 degrees, pushing out the bars as it does so. Still not sure what triggers the springs to let them come back inwards between M and N, but we'll get there.

[Andy51055]

Here are the basic components in .ai format: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/943592/PPMbasics.ai.zip
Hope they're of some help; if there's anything else I can help with let me know.

The teeth on the knuckle-wheel need correcting. They aren’t clear anywhere on the painting but I’m fairly sure they’re 45 degrees apart.

12 teeth on both the outer (chain-drive) and inner (main wheel drive) cog wheels at the end of the flywheel chain, so 30 degrees per tooth

and as it says on the painting “FLY WHEEL performs 12(?) revolutions to the Driving Wheel's one” that means that there are 144 teeth on the innermost wheel. So 2.5 degrees per tooth.

The outer (biggest) wheel doesn’t move and is only there as a frame. The next one in does rotate and has slots in which the weighted bars/spokes are held. The same is true for the innermost wheel.
(I think)

I'm fairly sure that the weighted bars/spokes are square sections where they have teeth and circular sections for the rest.

Making the weighted end balls hollow may be a good idea so we can add lead pellets to get the weight right.

Yes, getting the right size and strength springs may well be a problem, but one we will have to deal with when the model’s made.

[DrBwts]

Nice one Andy. I'm in the middle of moving house at the moment so may be a while but I will do it in the next couple of weeks.

Nic

[Samwise Wilson]

Woo that wheeely great!

[Andy51055]

It turns out that what we have here is a variation of a classic idea, going back to at least 1100 AD, called the Overbalanced Wheel. There are quite a few variations on the basic theme (with lovely old gif animations) here: https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/machines/machines.htm None of them use Hainsworth's ingenious piston system, but I'd say the theory is essentially the same.

[Andy51055]

Today’s fascinating historical cul-de-sac: the history of chain drives

The first known chain drives were made by the Romans in about 200AD according to this Bristol Uni paper (there’s even a photo) http://www.technology.heartland.edu/faculty/chrism/Mechanical%20MAIN%20102/chain%20bristol%20university.pdf, but wiki says that it was the 11th century in China. Then Leonardo da Vinci invented the bike chain (but not the bike, bit of an airhead, that guy) around 1500.
But our man Hainsworth was a traditionalist obviously and chose to go back to the non-existent Roman chain for his drives. Both the chain from the flywheel to the device and the chain from the device to the music box are just drawn as parallel lines with crossbars, so presumably we can make them like the picture in the Bristol paper or we can use stiff wire to make links that are 3 sides of a square with the open ends looped over the next link, which I’m sure must have existed though have no evidence for. Also they’re a lot easier to make that way and the painting won’t contradict it.
The gears that connect to the chains will have to have wider teeth, more like the paddles of a paddle-steamer, so as not to put all the stress on one central point of the crossbar. Not a problem if it’s 3D printed, just a case of extruding it slightly deeper than the others. Though being pre-Victorian they may all be deeper than the gears we think of these days - anyone know the history of gear shapes?  


All the information and equations you might never need for designing chain drives: http://www.technology.heartland.edu/faculty/chrism/Mechanical%20MAIN%20102/chain%20bristol%20university.pdf

Tomorrow’s fascinating historical cul-de-sac: the history of technical drawing or When did inventors start drawing wheels circular and stop using forced perspective?

[DrBwts]

I've been designing a few chains recently, nice link. Gear tooth profiles is a massive area but the 2 most common now-a-days is involute but back then it probably would have been cycloid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid_gear

Here's a link to a nice gear profile design package with a free demo: http://www.gearotic.com/

I have a license for the above if want any profiles exported just send me the parameters.

Nic

[Andy51055]

Cheers for that link, I may be getting back to you for some profiles on my next project.

In the meantime I’ve been trying to draw a more accurate version of the whole thing - it’s coming on slowly.
The gear behind the knuckle-wheel is a problem: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/943592/pmm-gear-problem.png
The distance between the teeth on the bar is not the same as the distance between the teeth on the gearwheel. The gearwheel needs to turn 180 degrees (that’s how the knuckle works - rotated by the lumpy curved bar at the bottom of that pic) and the bar teeth need to be that wide apart for the bar to move the right amount in and out.

The only solution I can see is to shrink the size of the knuckle-wheel gear wheel. The circumference needs to be about twice the distance between the end teeth on the bar.

From the painting:
“From L to M are the six levers in their full extent.
From N to O are the six leverers pressed inwards.”
I still can’t see what keeps the bars out from 12 o’clock to 6 o’clock (M) and then moves them back in gradually after 6(N). Obviously the springs are involved, but are they pulling inwards or pushing outwards? And what triggers the knuckle-wheels to move at 6 o’clock?
And what are those knobs/lumps/balls on the other side of the wheel from the knuckles from 1 o’clock to 8 o’clock (and is that the same thing but on the inside of the wheel at 11 o’clock)?

[DrBwts]

OK just got a chance to have a look at the files & it turns out that I have to have Illustrator installed to open *.ai files.

Any chance you have convert to *.dxf?

[Andy51055]

Try this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/943592/PMM%20drawing.dxf
("Anything done for the first time creates a demon.")

It's the whole thing (at least as much as I've done so far). Hopefully you can pull out the parts from it; if not, let me know and I'll send them over separated.

[Andy51055]

While thinking about exhibiting it I realised that we need to design it with sliding panels that reveal the workings of the music machine (in the box on the left) and the water pump (under the base). Shouldn't be a problem but I wanted to get it down in writing so as not to forget it.

Also if we want it to play 'Still Alive' and sound good we'll need two music box mechanisms, one an octave below the other. And build a soundbox into the box housing it. But that should be no problem.

[Andy51055]

It turns out that they make 30-note music box machines so I've bought one with strips and a hole punch for it. Though making the strips with sheets of acetate might be better as they'll last longer and we can cut them on the laser printer (just to be perverse, really). That way we can orchestrate it properly and make it sound way better than this simplified version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWxkoHcPbS0  Anyone know how to transpose music for these things?

[Alex Silcock]

I'm sure I could come up with a 30-note arrangement of it. Do you know what range of notes are available on the music box you've bought?

--

[Andy51055]

Excellent Alex, cheers! Nowhere tells you what the range is, but this app (free to try) should reveal the trade secret - just set it to 30-note. http://www.jellybiscuits.com/?page_id=705

[Andy51055]

The ornate box on the left of the picture that holds the music box and the clock is coming on nicely and hopefully I'll be able to bring it in to the space on Tuesday. But before I can put it together completely I'll have to mount the music box mechanism and the bit that shouldn't exist - the motor. The easiest place to hide it will be in the box as there's loads of room and there will be a sliding panel at the back to access all the internal workings. It can drive the music box directly and that can then drive the wheel using the connecting drive chain that should be working the opposite way.

So ideally the motor will be small, battery operated, silent (though we may well be able to sound insulate it), it shouldn't need to be very powerful but it should run at 50rpm (give or take a large margin of error). That speed would mean that the music would play at about the right speed with no need for gearing and the wheel can be geared down from that to about 25rpm (give or take) easily.

Anyone know where to find a motor like that?

[Samwise Wilson]

I've got a small brushless motor that should run at that rpm geared down a little bit!

[Andy51055]

I'm planning on bringing in the music/clock/battery/drive motor housing tonight in the hope that some of the more mechanically-minded amongst us can help set it up so that it can play music and bring the drive shaft/axle out to run the big wheels. It should just be a case of wiring up the motor and working out where best to place it and the music box mechanism for best sound and transfer of rotation. Oh, and possibly making another drive shaft or connecting another one.

I'm halfway through building the table to mount it on so if we can get this done tonight we might have a working machine in a couple of weeks! Or at least one that only needs tweaking and poking to get it working.

[Lawrence Molloy]

Andy

I'm organising an exhibition as Part of ASMbly Lab, would you consider having the Perpetual motion machine in the exhibit? 

Lawrence 

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 3:58:30 PM UTC, Andy51055 wrote:

On Monday, December 7, 2015 at 12:57:47 PM UTC, DrBwts wrote:

I'm still very confused about the fly wheel - lever mechanism though. Would it be possible to get a clearer shot of the '&JI'/bucket/lever/rod arrangement?

That's why I'm trying to get hold of a larger version of the picture on the BBC site as my photos show very little of the bottom right-hand corner. I went to the gallery today but they couldn't find any record of having that image, but put me on to the archivist for the university's art collection who will know where to find it apparently. I'll update when I get more news.

The text for the fly wheel mentions "When the balance weight W leaves F it will raise &: whence the levers YZ will raise the weight from J to I." which implies to me that it is gravity-driven. Hopefully a clearer image will explain it.

[Andy51055]

No problem with that, but I’ll have to remake the chain drives as they both broke on the night of the talk.

Where and when is the exhibition?

Andy

[Andy51055]

On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 8:44:53 PM UTC+1, Andy51055 wrote:

Where and when is the exhibition?

Ignore that, I've just spotted the other thread.

[Lawrence Molloy]

Hi Andy

Sorry, I'm relatively new to google groups. I did not get a notification so missed that you have taken place 

can i give you a call or you me. 

my number is 07812 734021 

It would be great to have it. I kind of love that you did it!

Lawrence 

07812 734021 (I had Groo's number but my phone broke with it in.  Geerrrr)