New space Electrics

[YouMustBe Joking]

Can someone remind me where the newspace Gannt chart is? 

I think we need to get on with the electrics design now that painting is well under way so we don't lose impetus 

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Tim

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

I agree, it's getting to a critical point with newspace. We need to finalise things like lighting choices, location, plug/socket locations, breakers etc.

I know Nav has been working on the 3ph stuff - phase balancing and possibly other stuff - not sure where that is at?

[Tim Pinder]

Thanks Tom

If anyone is able to be at the newspace on Thursday afternoon/evening perhaps we could get something started. Joe has suggested Samwise, Nav and Aidan have been working on this and if anyone else wants to throw ideas around that would be great

Tim

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[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

I am more than willing to turn up at that time. I think getting this right now will save us a huge amount of future hassle what with having to extract cabling from walls and possibly behind ceiling tiles.

[Samwise Wilson]

No point me being there, electrics is the last thing we want to bikeshed. 

I expect we should just give the information on our stuff to an expert and let them crack on rather than have them proactively bring us up to speed to then be able to suggest things. 

[YouMustBe Joking]

But do we know where current using machines are going to be sited? Where socket outlets and heaters should be? Are all the lights going to be controlled from a single point or locally?

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Tim

[Jon Stockill]

On 01.08.2016 19:38, Tim Pinder wrote:
> Thanks Tom
>
> If anyone is able to be at the newspace on Thursday afternoon/evening
> perhaps we could get something started. Joe has suggested Samwise, Nav
> and Aidan have been working on this and if anyone else wants to throw
> ideas around that would be great

Nope, can't do Thursday. Here's what I've got so far though:

Load Breaker Phase Location Notes
12.5A 16A L1 Kitchen Oven
26A 32A L1 Kitchen Ring (Fridge/Freezer 2A, Kettle 7.5A, Microwave 4A,
Toaster 5A, Boiler 7.5A)
0.5A 6A L3 Kitchen Lighting
5A 16A L1 Darkroom Ring (Enlarger, Water Bath)
0.5A 6A L3 Darkroom Lighting
25A 32A L2 Toilets Ring (Water Heaters (2x12.5A)
1A 6A L3 Toilets Lighting
26A 32A L2 Workshop Ring (Lathe 4A, Power Saw 4A, CNC 4A, Drill
4A,Grinder 5A, Vacuum former 4A, Laser 2A)
1A 6A L3 Workshop Lighting
10A 16A L3 Electronics Ring (Power Supplies, Test Equipment,Soldering)
8A 16A L3 Craft Ring (Sewing Machines, Heat Press, Vinyl Cutter)
10A 32A L3 Main Room Ring (Lots of laptops)
1.5A 6A L3 Main Room Lighting
0.5A 6A L3 Entrance Lighting
5A 32A L3 Server Rack Supplied via 32A single phase ceeform

Feel free to point out where I've completely cocked up. The "Load"
column is a guestimate at max load just for splitting across phases and
shouldn't be taken too seriously unless you think its wildly inaccurate.

--
Jon Stockill
li...@stockill.net

[Jon Stockill]

> Feel free to point out where I've completely cocked up. The "Load"
> column is a guestimate at max load just for splitting across phases
> and shouldn't be taken too seriously unless you think its wildly
> inaccurate.

Forgot to add, there should be a pile of a4 plans in the alcove by pile
of stuff in the new space - feel free to doodle trunking/socket
locations on one and leave it where I can retrieve it, I'll work out how
much stuff we need to order - I came to something like 70m of trunking
just for workshop, craft, electronics and along 1 wall of the main
hacking area, but we need to make a decision on exactly where its going.

--
Jon Stockill
li...@stockill.net

[YouMustBe Joking]

Fantastic. Thanks Jon

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Tim

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

Thanks Nav, a few comments though:

The current workshop ring is quite close to capacity, would it be a good idea to add a second ring and split the loads fpr possible future equipment? It's more work, but it'll save us a lot of hassle if we give ourselves room to breathe.

I would also like to suggest that the electronics bench be designed with a 32A breaker for similar reasons, primarily due to the potential for inrush current from transformers (variac and isolation transformer.)  Is there spare capacity for this?

[Samwise Wilson]

2 circuits in the workshop make sense - even though its unlikely that everything in the workshop will be on at once we do have to account for a new extraction system etc. Having the machines all on a estopable supply allows you to make the workshop "safe" (for tours, and in a emergency) whilst retaining your other sockets in use. 

Rather than dump up electronics, use a no-nuisance trip breaker. - Unless you are actually going to use 32A of juice (and take 1/6 of our supply).

[Andy51055]

The A4 plans are now under the signage on the table. Had to move them to paint the alcove.

[Tim Pinder]

If we can design in possible expansion/extension at this point it’s not a big deal to make additions later. Problems arise when circuits are already at capacity and there’s no provision for additional loads.

Electronics won’t use 32A but there’s no harm using a 32A sub main to a local board for the bench. 

Tim

[stethe...@googlemail.com]

Dont use a ring use radial. I dont know much about electronics but i do know that while current regs will allow for rings radial and now the prefered installation method. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=At7AnMV7Xd0

[Tim Pinder]

Nothing in that shows why radial is preferred. There can be a problem with rings when alterations cause multiple rings (there’s a proper term for this but at 6am I can’t remember it) to be formed but the main advantage is that because the current flows both ways round the circuit (Kirchoff’s Law) smaller conductors can be used.

Tim

[timpin .]

Btw I think we should use radial too. 

--
Tim

[timpin .]

Anybody able to help me design and build a current logger so we can balance phases more accurately?
--
Tim

--
Tim

[Callum Snowden]

Clamp-on ammeter should do the job fine?

[timpin .]

Not really, unless you know a way of logging all three phases simultaneously at reasonably close intervals. 

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Tim

[Andy Cook]

I don't think it's necessary to balance the phases that accurately. Also radials are not used in industry for general power. At least I've never once had one in a new build ever other then lighting. If you use a radial you are wiring with much larger less flexible cable. With a ring you are much less likely to loose an earth.

Can someone check about different ring phases in the same room. Are we sure this is allowed? 415 potential across two devices plugged into separate circuits?

There is nothing wrong with wiring in 4mm singles as a ring and using 45amp breaker (have to double check the calcs though) items in the workshop which have a larg current draw can in the future be provided with a direct feed and own breaker.

I don't think circuits are designed so every item of equipment in the workshop would be running simultaneously, unless they specifically would be. I.e. Water boilers and heaters being an exception

Hope this helps

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

@tim: I have a box full of current transformers and a 4 channel scope - could probably make something work

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

Maybe design the workshop with two 20A breakers feeding two circuits on the same phase giving us additional capacity.

It would also be nice to have a three phase provision in the workshop. 16A3ph ceeform or similar with a separate breaker.

I had thought that phases had to be balanced or you get voltage rise on the lower phases.

[Tim Pinder]

Thanks Andy - that’s very helpful.

As I’ve mentioned before my electrical qualifications are rather out of date so I’m not absolutely certain about anything written below - anyone who knows better please say so.

It’s not necessary to balance phases accurately - but utility companies can charge higher tariffs if there’s a large imbalance. And we are geeks: we ought to be able to at least make an attempt at getting things balanced. 

There are other disadvantages to ring circuits too - particularly if someone mistakenly creates a ring within a ring which can lead to false readings from test equipment and potentially mask the presence of a fault condition. I don’t have up to date regs to check what the rated capacity of different sized cables are (and that depends on other factors than just the cross sectional area (CSA)).

There used to be a restriction on having outlets on different phases within 2 metres. IIRC this was removed in one of the later amendments to the 15th edition. That’s not to say it hasn’t been reintroduced - as I've said before my qualifications are pre-millennial. 

I wouldn’t be happy running a 45A ring. When I worked on rewiring a ward at Bradford Royal Infirmary in the 80s the 4mm ring circuits were protected by 32A breakers but it’s quite possible that the conductors were oversized because of voltage drop or some other factor. Anything that draws more than 13A should have a dedicated circuit. It’s better to have more circuits and fewer appliances on each.

You’re right that circuits are designed on the assumption that only part of the potential load will be applied at any given time; it’s known as diversity. That’s why in domestic premises a 32A ring can serve a floor area of 100m2, a 32A radial can serve 50m2 and a 20A radial 20m2. It’s also the reason you can connect an electric cooker which could potentially draw 40 or 50 amps to a 32A circuit - the various thermostats will usually keep the current below the threshold.

Tim

[Andy Cook]

Great Tim! As long as you know what you doing I'm happy

[Samwise Wilson]

A 16A 3phase in the workshop would be nice for a certain large bit of kit that we are missing.

We should try to balance, but doubt they will tariff such a small 64A feed for being imbalanced this accurately. 

Common sense and degree of sensible labeling is probably the order of the day for multi phases in rooms, its only earth > 230V afterall - would also help to avoid stuff thats sensitive when connected over different phases like video gear (CCTV). 

[timpin .]

If funds permit I'd like to put a 3 phase board in the workshop. 

You're right that our usage will be so small they won't be bothered if we're imbalanced, it's just me being a tiny bit autistic ;)

Good point about labelling

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Tim

[stethe...@googlemail.com]

Workshop on its board would be handy would also allow for a oh shit kill it all button

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

We should have an Estop for the whole workshop (for the main socket ring, we can use the breaker for the 3ph equip)

[Samwise Wilson]

Estops have been covered further up.

Given the newly increased floor space a couple of suspended sockets with 2 gangs on them would make the centre of the workshop more useable in terms of get x tool out, use in the middle, store x tool again.

These might also be considered to run the laptop type tables whilst keeping the ability to move the tables around as needed in the main area.

We have the beams to support the mounting for this in newspace.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

We should be careful with using estops to switch loads - we should use it to ensure all equipment is off, rather than cutting load to them while equipment is still powered. This is simply because an estop is designed as an emergency stop and not designed to frequently switch load. Switching load on and off may lead to damage to the estop switch.

I'm not a big fan of suspended sockets unless we put them above head height (on some kind of retractable mechanism or just sufficiently high) - I feel they will be easily walked into and they will limit the floor working area for potentially big projects (e.g. megacube)

[stethe...@googlemail.com]

We had the retractable ones when I was in secondary school many many many many years ago. They were handy although I do remember the teacher moaning about them jamming up when pulled too hard but I suspect its more of them trying to discourage us from pulling on them.

[Samwise Wilson]

They work great in workshop areas you need to keep flexible and as I said they encourage not leaving stuff laying around.

Main space could just use some points above for flex cable drops for the tables not suspended gangs like the workshop. - we don't want to be dealing with cables along the floor, everything being attracted to the sides of the spare because that's where powers at, or those horrid floor boxes.

[Tim Pinder]

That doesn’t work well with the suspended ceiling, unfortunately. 

We may have to retrofit power poles or some such if money not available right now.

Tim

[Samwise Wilson]

You can get suspended ceiling boxes no problem, all different kinds exist. The beam structure runs throughout the space and provides the ideal support for it.

[Samwise Wilson]

Either way I think we have covered most aspects of our needs; can we progress to the next step? - Maybe get these designs down on paper and costs drawn up.

[timpin .]

That's what I'm hoping ;)

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Tim

[Tim Pinder]

I found various options while recovering space on my hard drive today (don’t ask).

These would offer a build it yourself route: http://www.olson.co.uk/suspended.htm, http://www.elandcables.com/cables/curly-flex-cable, http://springbalancers.co.uk/ while there are purpose built units also available at, no doubt, great cost: http://www.nederman.com/products/reels/cable-reels

I’m not sure how we sort out the interface between unit and suspended ceiling but that’s a mere detail :)

The other alternative we discussed was using suspended 16A ceeform sockets with matching plug and distribution on the tables.

Tim

On 4 Aug 2016, at 08:41, Samwise Wilson <s...@swwils.com> wrote:

You can get suspended ceiling boxes no problem, all different kinds exist. The beam structure runs throughout the space and provides the ideal support for it.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

I think Ceeform suspended works best. We can have many more sockets on the table (we could put something together using double gang faceplates on something attached to the tables) and we don't need large hanging sockets (because we'd need at least 8 to satisfy a typical table on open evenings etc.) Plus they're less of a hazard, there's a good chance we could find a way to tuck them up near the ceiling when unused (I don't imagine a 16A ceeform + cable would be heavy so a simple hook would probably do fine)

[Andy51055]

I’m not sure how we sort out the interface between unit and suspended ceiling but that’s a mere detail :)

Now all I can see is a Hackspace dodgems/bumpercar power grid. Oh, the potential...

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

If we use Ceeform we can create a tail on the bench going to a socket and mate them in the middle. So each bench has a 0.5m or so Ceeform tail.

16A per bench should be adequate. We could probably get away with a 16A breaker for all the tails (anywhere from three to five) but I know there was talk of one breaker per tail. Since there will be no portable heaters and only laptops / lights / phones total load is unlikely to break 1kW.

[Samwise Wilson]

Another advantage is that we could open a beauty section because flex from ceiling is how all those are powered.

I've got some metal table top 45 degree mounting cases for desk power - raised enough even for all the weird plugs.

I'll look into the workshop suspended gangs, they are a little more complex and the good ones ive used had chains, but we can provision for these at any time.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #1)]

If not it shouldn't be too hard to build some kind of plug set up and screw it to each of the tables. This would consist of some two-gang plug sockets fitted into a box of some kind, spanning a reasonable length of table.

I'll volunteer if I have free time to put them together. 

[timpin .]

There could possibly be offcuts of trunking available 

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Tim

[stethe...@googlemail.com]

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 8:46:47 PM UTC+1, Andy51055 wrote:
> I’m not sure how we sort out the interface between unit and suspended ceiling but that’s a mere detail :)
>
> Now all I can see is a Hackspace dodgems/bumpercar power grid. Oh, the potential...

A leeds cover of the super mario film?

[Molly Fletcher]

> On 3 Aug 2016, at 16:01, Andy Cook <onlyha...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can someone check about different ring phases in the same room. Are we sure this is allowed? 415 potential across two devices plugged into separate circuits?

I have vague recollections from when I worked at Bath University that one of the labs ended up being hooked up with optical networking because different ends of the room were on different phases and badness happened when you connected copper network cables between machines on different phases - but that was last century so it’s a little hazy.

[timpin .]

 Molly

That's a very pertinent recollection. That said I'm certain that the office I work in now has three phase and there must be computers on all three phases. Maybe the network equipment is all on one phase. If I see the network manager I will ask. 

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Tim

[Samwise Wilson]

Older stuff like analog CCTV will get bars if the two ends on are on different phases, with other signal types like isolated or differential ones there should be no issues, this includes IT equipment.

Either way all solved by common sense and labeling. 

[Andy51055]

On Tuesday, August 9, 2016 at 11:00:54 AM UTC+1, Samwise Wilson wrote:

Either way all solved by common sense and labeling.

Both of which can be in short supply occasionally. Could there be a third leg to the safety tripod?

[stethe...@googlemail.com]

Non standard plugs(but still meets safety regs) for equipment intended to run on different phases?

[timpin .]

Thinking outside the box!

Probably not practical though 

On Tuesday, 9 August 2016, stetheonlyone via Leeds Hack Space <leeds-ha...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Non standard plugs(but still meets safety regs) for equipment intended to run on different phases?

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Tim

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

Curious what the state of the electrics plan is?

Do we know when we are going to be connecting stuff up and ripping out the old cabling?

If anything needs to be done re parts sourcing or designing or installation I'd love to get involved.

[Andy51055]

Do the electrics go in before the workshop floor gets put in and workbenches etc. get built? If so, it's very nearly time to start work on them and a weekend of concerted wiring by those able to do it should be planned.

[timpin .]

First fix electrics needs to move forward asap. 

That's trunking, cable basket, and cable. 

This doesn't have to be before workshop floor screed or benches built if those ready but shortly after. 

I need to get as far as I can with designing the different options available so directors can decide which to go with.

Some feedback on the workbooks I posted on Tuesday would be helpful. Will link to them on here. Also would refer to IRC/Slack conversation yesterday 

Would be very helpful if we had a trade account at one or more electrical wholesaler. Falcon are just across the road so an obvious choice. 

Newspace lx materials

 

Newspace electrics (public)

 

On Saturday, 13 August 2016, Andy51055 <you...@51055.com> wrote:

Do the electrics go in before the workshop floor gets put in and workbenches etc. get built? If so, it's very nearly time to start work on them and a weekend of concerted wiring by those able to do it should be planned.

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Tim

[tenst...@me.com]

I can set up an account at Falcon on Wednesday (or at least go in and find out what is required) - yes/no?

[Tim Pinder]

Thanks for the offer. You might enquire if they do a project or self-build type of account as we wouldn’t expect to use the facility very much after the newspace opens.

Whether to open the account would be a decision for the directors.

Tim

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

Looking good Tim. Great work.

At what point do you think we can commence removal of existing wiring and installation of new wiring?

I know we're waiting on trunking parts and other items, but there's some lighting circuits and things of that nature that we can probably start ditching now in preparation for the main work.

On a similar note, is it known when we will be three-phased up and on a proper meter to bill us?

 

[Samwise Wilson]

I thought falcon dont do trunking? Wouldn't it be worthwhile to explore the hackspace factor for best price vs the convenience of falcon being over the road. A simple ask for 5% off can mount up.

[Andy51055]

On Saturday it was looking as if hanging the cable baskets was sadly going to prove to be too difficult and expensive. Is this now official?

If not, where is it going to go so that we can start replacing the ceiling tiles where they won't be in the way?

[Samwise Wilson]

New tiles are coming, basket can go in if needs be. 

[Andy Cook]

Ceiling tiles should be the very last thing to install? They take minutes to install but are damaged just looking at them, dust sticks to them etc. On a construction project I would usually install these other then the ones with embedded services 3 days before hand over.