Should we have vending machines back?

[Stanto]

Okay, before the quick reply of 'yes! they were cool!" (though you're more than welcome to do just that), I've been (over?) thinking about this (a bit more than is probably healthy), especially since I've historically dealt with the tuckshop (which I'm not particularly precious over and have happily involved others).

I've attempted to be pragmatic with this, from having observations on the vending machines in the space. It is not a criticism of anyone, I'm happy for people to input on this, feed opinions, or say "hey actually, I am going to do this, here's my plan and steps I'm going to take" or even "yeah I see your point/ don't see it/ agree/disagree".

Con's of having vending machines:

- They require maintenance, the can machine had a fault with one of the lines and it was never fixed

- Use of electricity, when someone's in the hackspace, and not in the hackspace, we pay more for our electricity now, and this is a 'hidden cost' to maintaining the tuckshop, especially if we keep things cold (and there's already a fridge in the kitchen)

- Updating to take new currency, the hardware to update the coin mechanisms aren't cheap, neither's the software to go on them, which leads me to my next point:

- Reverse engineering the protocol used on them isn't trivial

- They're "part of the infrastructure" and typically, we don't hack on infrastructure. We had the vending machines for a while in the state they were in, and no-one had the resources to work on them.

- Because coin mechanisms are in a flux state of working/not working, it may confuse costs of snacks, and people either free-vend, or not use them as much.

- Integrating an RFID pay system is not trivial, and no-one's had the resource to convert the vending machines for the time they've been in so far, or expressed that they were going to do something, until they were gone.

Also, not all of the goods fit inside of the vending machine, so while the vending machine's a nice to have and people use them, 'locking down' snacks behind the paywall of the coin mech' becomes moot unless it all fits in there and the mechs are working and up to date.

Typically I think the point of vending machines are an attempt to stop theft/gateway to access, and we currently have a trust system in place anyway so they're introducing a cost and, I'm viewing this somewhat frugally.

Pro's of having vending machines:

- They're fun, they're like the electronics meets mechanics, and it's satisfying to whack a button and receive bacon^H^H^H^H^H treats

- It's potentially a project, I hadn't seen inside a vending machine until the Hackspace got hold of them, I had no idea or interest in how they worked until now, and that's cool, using them as an education tool is the best.

- It helps to keep the tuckshop somewhat organised, it reduces the amount of boxes of snacks somewhat (though some boxes are designed to be 'shop presentable') and makes them somewhat easy access.

- The can machine keeps the cans cool, and since we tend to have bottles as well which take up the fridge, it does help expand the capacity of cooled beverages

- (If they're in a reliable state of working, with coin mechanisms) then it keeps the money somewhat organised/safe/kinda secure (for a given definition of secure where a hammer/lock picks can be picked up)

- The snacks are visible and presented in a nice way, the snack vending machine is fully intended to help advertise what we have, and half open cardboard boxes don't necessarily do that.

So I think if we did have vending machines back, at least in the state they were in, I wouldn't be able to see them as reliable infrastructure without investment, and unless someone is prepared to invest in them (and the frugal mind says this doesn't really have high returns) then they should be seen as an educational hacking project instead, because few people can see how these things work / see inside them and that might inspire people, and that's awesome.

What do you think? Did you have a plan for the vending machines? What do you want to do with them?

[Phil Hutchinson]

I'm not super bothered by them. I feel if some one took charge and wanted to maintain them cool. But my life is not effected by their absence

[Marc Jennings]

As an infrequent visitor to the space itself I can say I have ever actually used them. They are one of those "yeah, cool" things right up to the point that you think about the hidden costs like power and maintenance and then after that they're a little less cool.
I am not worried either way, but since I used to work for a vending machine company I know how easily the costs can rack up on anything other than a brand new machine. Frankly I'd rather my memberships pennies went towards maintenance and upkeep of pew-pew lasers and spinny-round sharp things, keeping *those* items safe and maintained.

[Taimur Khan]

Hi Stanto

I was ok with them being there or not so doesn't make a difference. However I have been looking for a project and your email has given me an idea of a barcode scanning price teller, so people know how much to put in the honesty box if there is any confusion. 

Regards

TK

On 21 May 2017 07:26, "Marc Jennings" <marc.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

As an infrequent visitor to the space itself I can say I have ever actually used them.  They are one of those "yeah, cool" things right up to the point that you think about the hidden costs like power and maintenance and then after that they're a little less cool.
I am not worried either way, but since I used to work for a vending machine company I know how easily the costs can rack up on anything other than a brand new machine. Frankly I'd rather my memberships pennies went towards maintenance and upkeep of pew-pew lasers and spinny-round sharp things, keeping *those* items safe and maintained.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-space+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Stephen Rowley]

I like them but tbh its mainly the can machine thats more useful. I do think we should look at there location and maybe find a different location.

[Katie N]

I'm not super bothered so long as snacks are available. I do like how you can see whats available nicely

Could they go in the entrance bit or something?

When the vending machine is full, does it take enough stock or do you still need to keep a stock somewhere ?

Will have a research later... I'm up for contributing ideas/help to make something more efficient & space saving. 

[Christopher Stanton]

So far we have still had to keep stock somewhere as well as fill the vending machines.

[Christopher Stanton]

We have a USB barcode scanner in the space somewhere. Along with one that isn't usb, this sounds interesting. :)

[Andy51055]

I'm curious to know if Vendo is more efficient in terms of electricity than a fridge (or two) which could replace it for cold drinks. I've only used it a handful of times last summer to cool down my root beer before the fridge was brought over so have no use for it. And I find its random shiver whenever the compressor turns off annoying and its hum occasionally sets of my tinnitus, so I'd be happy to see it go and free up space (physical, auditory and visual).

As for the snack vendor I don't see any use for it. As we found, we can fit twice as many snacks on shelves half the size and free up the kitchen in the process. As someone who would like to use the kitchen to make tasty delights occasionally, I'd rather it wasn't used as a storeroom for a vending machine. And it doesn't work very well so you often have to press the keys twice to get the spiral wire to dispense two of what you wanted as it wouldn't drop just one. And it uses unnecessary power.

tl;dr - Ship them out or put them in the foyer to stop the drug-addled burglars going any further into the space.

[Tom Oldbury (Email #2)]

Vendo is based on a very old design (it's 120V compressor and transformer is an example of its age!) The compressor isn't very efficient and there is very little insulation. Two modern A class fridges would use less electricity than one Vendo, I'm almost certain.

[samson B]

so if we got one of the tall frigdes like what bars use with glass fronts it would look prity and cost us less to run while holding the same amount of drinks + Bottels leaving the kitech free for members food only instead of a mix?

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Tom Oldbury (Email #2) <told...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vendo is based on a very old design (it's 120V compressor and transformer is an example of its age!) The compressor isn't very efficient and there is very little insulation. Two modern A class fridges would use less electricity than one Vendo, I'm almost certain.

[timpin .]

I suspect the act of opening the door would defeat any efficiency gains

On Mon, 22 May 2017 at 07:50, samson B <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

so if we got one of the tall frigdes like what bars use with glass fronts it would look prity and cost us less to run while holding the same amount of drinks + Bottels leaving the kitech free for members food only instead of a mix?

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Tom Oldbury (Email #2) <told...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vendo is based on a very old design (it's 120V compressor and transformer is an example of its age!) The compressor isn't very efficient and there is very little insulation. Two modern A class fridges would use less electricity than one Vendo, I'm almost certain.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-spa...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-spa...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Tim

[samson B]

we could hack it so the glass panel has a door a shelf minimising the escape of cool air ?

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 8:18 AM, timpin . <tmp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I suspect the act of opening the door would defeat any efficiency gains

On Mon, 22 May 2017 at 07:50, samson B <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

so if we got one of the tall frigdes like what bars use with glass fronts it would look prity and cost us less to run while holding the same amount of drinks + Bottels leaving the kitech free for members food only instead of a mix?

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Tom Oldbury (Email #2) <told...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vendo is based on a very old design (it's 120V compressor and transformer is an example of its age!) The compressor isn't very efficient and there is very little insulation. Two modern A class fridges would use less electricity than one Vendo, I'm almost certain.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-space+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-space+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Tim

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-space+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Marc Jennings]

I don't want to derail the conversation, but I think we're in danger of getting stuck in analysis paralysis.  A couple of question we should really consider here are:

- Do we need the vending machines?

- Do we have alternate arrangements that can act as a backfill if the answer to (1) is "no"?

Again, I'm sorry to derail the thread slightly, but my experience is that the wider a topic becomes the less likely it is for a decision to be made.  Feel free to tell me to butt out, though.

Marc.

On Monday, 22 May 2017 08:55:07 UTC+1, samson B wrote:

we could hack it so the glass panel has a door a shelf minimising the escape of cool air ?

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 8:18 AM, timpin . <tmp...@gmail.com> wrote:

I suspect the act of opening the door would defeat any efficiency gains

On Mon, 22 May 2017 at 07:50, samson B <samm...@gmail.com> wrote:

so if we got one of the tall frigdes like what bars use with glass fronts it would look prity and cost us less to run while holding the same amount of drinks + Bottels leaving the kitech free for members food only instead of a mix?

On Sun, May 21, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Tom Oldbury (Email #2) <told...@gmail.com> wrote:

Vendo is based on a very old design (it's 120V compressor and transformer is an example of its age!) The compressor isn't very efficient and there is very little insulation. Two modern A class fridges would use less electricity than one Vendo, I'm almost certain.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-spa...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-spa...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Tim

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-spa...@googlegroups.com.

[George Scott]

Hey all - thanks Stanto for kicking this off:

My vote is get rid.

They waste electricity and space and people's time restoking them - and the tuck box never annoyingly doesn't recognise your coins.

They're an unnecessary complication, adding no value to a system that already worked - or in the case of the cans, worse; coz you don't always get what you want.

From this email it seems that in the main, members either don't care or don't want, and so ultimately it makes sense for the machines to be removed permanently at no cost to the Hackspace.

That said, if someone really wants them as a project, I'm sure they can apply for large project storage.

Can I ask that that application has at least these conditions:

- a finite project time with continued and persistent development work for the tenure.

- remain located in the foyer.

- not stocked.

- only ever powered when being worked on and never when unsupervised.

- do not replace or interfere with the current tuck shop.

- are permanently removed from the Hackspace at the end of the project at no cost to the Hackspace*.

- agreement that should the terms above be breached, or no work is conducted on them for a period of 14 days, the machines can (subject to a 48hr notice period by email) be removed and/or scrapped, with any costs of the aforementioned covered by the member named on the project.

*following completion of project development, and within a 14 day limit; if the member would like to communicate the new working features, and conduct a vote for the machines to be reintroduced to the space, and for the machines to be fully donated to the space from that day hence; then this condition need not apply.

Cheers all.

George 

[t...@mkconsultants.eu]

Glass isn't a good insulator, an ordinary fridge will be fine.

As for opening the door I'd be surprised if it was that significant compared to the losses of an old fridge.
--
*EMAIL DISCLAIMER*

This email and any attachment may be confidential and is intended solely
for the individual to whom it is addressed. If you are not the named
addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail.
Please notify the sender immediately if you have received this e-mail by
mistake and delete it from your system. MK Consultants (UK) Ltd does not
accept liability for any errors or omissions (including non receipt) or
viruses in the contents or e-mail messages which arise as a result of
e-mail transmission. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of
the author and do not necessarily represent those of MK Consultants (UK)
Ltd.

[George Scott]

Agree Marc,

I think a large project application needs to be submitted by the end of the month or they're removed in 2 weeks of the same, per Matt's offer on slack - see attached.

Can this action and timeline be presented and approved by the directors today on this email string. 

GS

[samson B]

I vote is to get rid to we have more space and light since they been moved and all the snacks are out the kitchen and on a small set of shelvs in the main area we also have a small frigde in the back to use for drinks  

[J C]

Thank you everyone for contributing so far, especially stanto for providing a good clear start. Marc, there is never a problem with you trying to stop people from getting side tracked on these threads, we do like our side tracks here though practically they can become an issue :)

Personally I like the idea of vending machines secure, nice display for things we sell is pretty cool. Stephen has made a good point that going forward secure  reliably working vending machines are probably the way forward.  Currently these do not fit the requirements and have limited utility (especially now with the new pound coins. . If someone can make these work reliably with secure storage found for the rest of the stock in the relatively near future please put your proposal in by the end of the month when they were due to be gone by. 

I think Georges points for the requirements of the proposal my be a little strict but worth keeping in mind for the proposal. They are currently are currently bulky clutter at the point where we are really trying to declutter so make a proposal for one or two of the machines good. If the proposer intends for them to stay at the space for the tuck shop, thought on future implementation to ideally included. If money for parts are sourced from other members then that should be kept in mind about ownership and its its to become infrastructure then should be the property of the space- especially after the silly faff from this time around.

 And George anyone can make reasonable objections to a large storage proposal.

Keep in mind that maintenance/ upgrade of the coin mech for the can machine is apparently 50-150 quid (damn silly foreign keyboards with hidden pound signs) 

Thanks all.  

  Joe

On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 10:03 AM, George Scott <gds...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Matt Collins]

I'm going to get a quote for servicing the coin mechs and programming for new £1, I'll cover the cost, once that's done some of the security/maintenance/usefulness points are resolved?

[samson B]

I wouldn't fork out to get them upgraded till we no we are keeping them at the space ?

[Matt Collins]

I own them and if we don't keep them I'll find them a home :) Surely they are better in working condition where ever they end up!

[Matt Collins]

I think Maggi can service for under £100

[George Scott]

Hey Matt - yeah, think Samson cautious approach has some wisdom here. Spending more money on something than it's sale value isn't going to be much fun, right?

The 2 best options seem to be either:

- member(s) hack, fix-up, improve, as part of a large member storage project. But this still could result in them not being fit for purpose, and in need of removal

OR

- sell as is / scrap.

Maybe worth getting them on eBay as a buyer collects auction, if no one wants to play with them as a project?

G

[Callum Snowden]

I feel like the idea is good, the current implementation is poor, particularly in the case of Vendo. It would be nice to have a more up-to-date can vending machine that's more efficient/easier to talk to and interface to, but then again this falls back to the problem of someone/a group having the time to sit down and work out an implementation to do that. There was discussions at one point about taking card payments to top up an account for using the machines, but the hardware in the can vending machine made this sufficiently difficult to do (not to mention the prices charged for actually processing a card payment). Also the fact that the existing space infrastructure might not be capable of supporting it (and of course, the typical bikeshedding that happens).

TL;DR: they're neat, but definitely a more novel thing in their current state.

[George Scott]

See attached:

eBay - £80 to £99 or nearest offer - I think Sam bought them for like less than 10 or even 5 pounds?

I expect other sellers would let them go for a lot less than the eBay prices above, just to get rid.

Really not worth paying to fix some of the issues, which leaves others still unresolved, and maybe then still not suitable for the spaces needs.

Sorry to be a downer on this pal - just think it could waste your money.

Sent from Galaxy S8

[Matt Collins]

The two machines at the space are working, not spares/repairs like the ones you've linked. Coin mech on vendo (can machine) just needs updating to accept new £1, and coin mech on Venda (snacks) needs servicing and updating for new £1.

[samson B]

venda is spares and repairs as it has no coin mech and as vendo needs mech update it would not be clased as fully working Georges point still stands

[Matt Collins]

Errmmm there should be a coin mech in Venda too...

[samson B]

as far as I no it never had one I could be wrong

[J C]

Wiki says no to a coin mech in the snack one though the wiki can get out of date easily 

[Matt Collins]

Yeah I think wiki is wrong, swills bought a mech for Venda

[Tom Oldbury]

There were at least two mechs for the can machine, IIRC

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/leeds-hack-space/8zMUoSWWh6A/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to leeds-hack-space+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Thomas Oldbury

Electronic Engineer

MK Consultants (UK) Ltd.

Cair Building

190 Hanson Ln

Halifax

HX1 4SD 

+44(0)1422 329002

 

EMAIL DISCLAIMER

[Christopher Stanton]

The coin mech in the food vending machine is non functional. There is one in it.

[J C]

So Matt, whats happening with the vending machines?

Thanks

Joe 

[onlyha...@gmail.com]

I don't see the point of keeping them.

Against
They still need stacked, the rest of the tookshop is honesty run so provide no security, they take up a lot of space, inefficient, need maintained.

For...
they are a vending machine.

[Alex Silcock]

One of the original points which I don't think anyone has mentioned (sorry if I'm wrong, it's a long thread) - we could use them to sell Arduino/Raspberry Pi kits or other hardware if it'll physically fit.

I don't think it's worth keeping the vending machines for them at this point, though. We've still got a number of backend jobs to do before we can support taking electronic payments though, so maybe we can revisit the discussion around whether we should have vending machines when we can pay for stuff electronically in the space.

[onlyha...@gmail.com]

Just seams a large bulky way to dispense something that's tiny... it would be different if theft was a problem

[Marc Jennings]

I've just found a coin mech programming gizmo in my bag of swag.  I have no idea if it is compatible with the mechs we have, or even how to use it, but I'll happily bring it in.

[Matt Collins]

It feels like the consensus is that the vending machines should go, I think this is a real shame, with the coin mechs serviced and reprogrammed (I'm actually sending off a other mech for a different machine next Fri!) and if a group of people were willing to take them on as a project they would be a great asset to the space!

I will be looking for a new home for the machines, either through selling them or donating to another hackspace/organisation, I've already had some interest. 

Unfortunately, being realistic I don't see this happening immediately so could we set a deadline of 1 month for removing the machines? Could they be stored in the back corridor till then? I could be at the space mon/thurs eve this week or the following Tues for AGM if anyone else is available to help shift them?

Thank you all for your input!

--

[Stanto]

Actually there are things belonging to the Hackspace that have been taken and not replaced. It's just that most people haven't noticed.

[Matt Collins]

Stanto what have you noticed that has gone missing?

On 4 Jun 2017 1:22 pm, "Stanto" <sta...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually there are things belonging to the Hackspace that have been taken and not replaced. It's just that most people haven't noticed.

[Andy51055]

One of my LED strips disappeared and was replaced with a crap one but I'm hoping it was the one put in the laser cutter so at least it went to a good home and I get some use out of it.

[George Scott]

Hey all,

In the spirit of avoiding topics mushrooming, but not discounting their importance...

Can we draw a line under this string now.

In summary:

Matt's storing the vending machines in LHS untill the end of June and then they will be removed. (Be that through sale and collection, or scrapping)

If in that time someone came up with a truly innovatove use for them, then this can be reopened, AND IF everyone then agrees such a functions warrants the space they take up, then fresh consideration can be made regarding the machines - but such reconsideration still needs to be completed by end of June, as no further storage term is reasonable.

The above does not limit either machine being worked on during this month.

As for foyer vs back corridor - probably best they stay where they are:

- back corridor has JUST been tidied

- foyer is near exit

- foyer is undergoing less change than other places

- less effort overall in moving.

Please can Joe or Fligg approve this message, and Matt confirm agreement.

Thanks all.

George.

P&R

--

[George Scott]

...Matt: probably best to fill out a large project member storage requeat too 

G

[Matt Collins]

Update: I have a place to store the vending machines I just need to arrange transport now.

[Matt Collins]

Update: Sorry sorry! I know the deadline has passed :( I have been told that the can vending machine is extremely heavy and that it cannot be tilted over, so putting it in the back of a normal van is out. I didn't realise this having only moved two of the polyvend style machines before. My plan now is to get a person with a Luton and do the move one day next week.

Does anyone know anyone with a Luton?

Ta

[Matt Collins]

I'll be storing the machines 5mins drive from Hackspace so not a big/long job for the Luton person.

[Stanto]

https://www.gumtree.com/p/removal-services/man-and-a-box-van.-6-year-experience.-team-available.-free-clearances.-storage.-leeds-uk-europe.-/1251250302

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-spa...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Leeds Hack Space" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-spa...@googlegroups.com.

[Matt Collins]

Ta Stanto but Van would need tail lift

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to leeds-hack-space+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Stanto]

May want to search the rest of gumtree :)