Holy crap, RGB 5050 LEDs with integrated LPD6803 controller in an SMD package!

[Robert Atkins]

http://www.bliptronics.com/item.aspx?ItemID=67

These are new since the last time I looked at Bliptronics. 5mm x 5mm x 1mm and USD$1.76 in quantity (and who wouldn't be wanting some serious quantity after seeing the size of these guys!)

Guess I've got an excuse to hate myself for failing at SMD soldering now :(

Anyone know where I can get small runs of flat flexible circuit boards produced?

Cheers, Robert.

[Patrick Cantwell]

I was excited at first - but those don't look to be such a great deal. If you wanted to put them on an LED strip, a 5M roll @ 32/m (160 LEDs) would cost $281.60 - and that's just the LEDs alone! I'm selling 52 LED/m LPD8806 strips far cheaper than that! :) There is the coolness factor, though..

I did reach out to my manufacturers to see if they could obtain/would make something similar/better. The good news is that one of my manufacturers was already testing WS2811 LED-on-chip designs and has some strips that they're testing. Their goal is to sell 60 LED/m WS2811 strips but they'll also sell me the LEDs directly too. The annoying news is that it's the WS2811 chip which uses 1 wire (no separate clk/data) and has some tight timing (though I understand they're similar to the TM1804).

[Patrick Cantwell]

This is the WS2811 LED-on-chip strips that my manufacturer is currently testing. Their prime concern is if the heat generated by the chip can/will affect the LED. The WS2811 has beautiful 24 bit color like the WS2801, so this is a much nicer design if it does indeed work!

[Robert Atkins]

On Friday, September 7, 2012 1:15:33 PM UTC-7, Patrick Cantwell wrote:

I was excited at first - but those don't look to be such a great deal. If you wanted to put them on an LED strip, a 5M roll

You're right, these are hella expensive. Bliptronics aren't known for being cheap though, I was thinking these might be less than a buck a piece in bulk straight from China if we could work out who the actual manufacturer was. A cursory look over Aliexpress didn't turn up anything.

 

@ 32/m (160 LEDs) would cost $281.60 - and that's just the LEDs alone! I'm selling 52 LED/m LPD8806 strips far cheaper than that! :) There is the coolness factor, though..

52 LEDs/m? That's a new one. Might be good for my little gauntlet project...

The cool thing I was thinking might be possible with these LED-and-controller-chip SMD packages is being able to design a really simple (flex?) circuit board and being able to put the LEDs anywhere I want. Problem is, flex it too much and you'll break the solder and the chips will pop off. Is anyone aware of any kind of conductive adhesive that has a little bit of "give" in it that can be used as a solder replacement?

Cheers, Robert.

[Robert Atkins]

On Friday, September 7, 2012 1:20:02 PM UTC-7, Patrick Cantwell wrote:

This is the WS2811 LED-on-chip strips that my manufacturer is currently testing. Their prime concern is if the heat

Oh, sweet! What's the density on these then? How many LEDs/m? What about power consumption? I'd guess with few/no external components it might go down a bit.

Cheers, Robert.

[Andrew]

You're going to want to search for DycoLED.   I've played with them.  They're good, just a little expensive ($0.50 in 20,000 qty).  Somewhere, I've got contact information for them.  As of perhaps a month ago, they didn't sell in quantities less than 10,000. 

The WS2811 is cool, but not really easily controlled by anything as simple as an Arduino.  To get the timings necessary, it takes a reasonably speedy micro.

(plus: still can't post via email)
Finally: the updated version of my audio matrix is going to be at the SynShop booth at FF tonight.   Now featuring Kinect integration.

[Daniel Garcia]

The fastspi library supports the TM1809/1804 timings on arduino.  Unfortunately, the TM1803 doubles the data rate vs. the TM1809/1804 and the arduino can't push fast enough :(

I'm using the TM1809 for all my projects at the moment, mostly because i've been able to drive 15 meters of strips in a way that i had trouble with trying to drive 15m of ws2801 strips (also, as of a year ago, the tm1809 was the only 12v strip/chip i could get fully individually addressable leds with - everyone who was doing a ws2801 based strip was group leds in groups of 3 - was very irritating).

Now that there's things like single-led per chip ws2801 and ucs1903 and the lpd8806 strips which don't seem to do the annoying 3-rgb leds per pixel thing I may revisit how aggressively I use the tm1809 strips.  

Maybe :)

(reposting - still unable to email "The group led-...@googlegroups.com does not allow posting through email.")

[Daniel Garcia]

If the WS2811 is using the same timing as the TM1809/TM1804 the fastspi library supports it (even though it's not technically spi).  The tm1809/tm1804 , tm1803, and UCS1903 (and I believe the ws2811) all use a data format that is roughly:

2T/3 high + T/3 low == 1

T/3 high + 2T/3 low == 0

gets rid of the need for a clock line.  For the tm1809/tm1804, T is 2ms (so I get 32 clock cycles per bit) while for the TM1803 T is 1ms (giving me only 16 clock cycles per bit - this gets ugly fast), and the UCS1903 T is 2.5ms.  I had someone ping me with a WS2811 strip and I believe they were able to use either the TM1809 or UCS1903 settings in fastspi to make it work (but I forget which one it was - and I haven't added the alias in the library yet)

[Daniel Garcia]

I have some lpd8806 based strips (at least, I think that's the chipset on them, i'll need to check when I get home) that are 48 rgb leds/meter at home :)

[Robert Atkins]

On Friday, September 7, 2012 2:07:09 PM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:

You're going to want to search for DycoLED.   I've played with them.  They're good, just a little expensive ($0.50 in 20,000 qty).  Somewhere, I've got contact information for them.  As of perhaps a month ago, they didn't sell in quantities less than 10,000. 

Yikes. It's interesting though, from the arduino.cc forum thread that came up this seems to be the way of the future. If I could get flat pre-wired pixels (like the Bliptronics ones) it would solve a whole lot of my problems.

 

(plus: still can't post via email)

I've definitively fixed that now—found the setting on Google Groups, they went to great lengths to hide it.

 

Finally: the updated version of my audio matrix is going to be at the SynShop booth at FF tonight.   Now featuring Kinect integration.

Sweet! I hope to make it eventually but we're going out to see Gotye first and apparently First Friday runs into the gay pride parade this evening so it'll be a little mad downtown. White time are you there until?

Cheers, Robert. 

[Andrew Morrow]

I think we're there until 11 or so

Andrew

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[Daniel Garcia]

(attempting email reply, now)

On Sep 7, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Robert Atkins <snikta...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, September 7, 2012 2:07:09 PM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:

You're going to want to search for DycoLED.   I've played with them.  They're good, just a little expensive ($0.50 in 20,000 qty).  Somewhere, I've got contact information for them.  As of perhaps a month ago, they didn't sell in quantities less than 10,000. 

Yikes. It's interesting though, from the arduino.cc forum thread that came up this seems to be the way of the future. If I could get flat pre-wired pixels (like the Bliptronics ones) it would solve a whole lot of my problems.

Can you shoot link to that thread?  Curious to read more about what they're doing.

(plus: still can't post via email)

I've definitively fixed that now—found the setting on Google Groups, they went to great lengths to hide it.

Thanks!  Hopefully this will work

Finally: the updated version of my audio matrix is going to be at the SynShop booth at FF tonight.   Now featuring Kinect integration.

Sweet! I hope to make it eventually but we're going out to see Gotye first and apparently First Friday runs into the gay pride parade this evening so it'll be a little mad downtown. White time are you there until?

Where is this stuff going on tonight?  (Not sure where everyone on this list is :) 

Also - the mention of Gotye reminded me - someone use the fastspi library to make sound reactive drums for the band metric:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TMRppWD9sU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfPD3YyIBYI

Alas, the tour lighting designer decided to keep the light programming for the drums simple for the show - that second video is worth watching though (esp. for what the background light rig does at about 1:17 :)

--Dg

[Andrew Morrow]

Sorry- First Friday is a downtown Las Vegas event 

Andrew

[Patrick Cantwell]

These strips are going to be 60 LEDs/m - addressable with the 2811 chip built in. Manufacturer also agreed to sell me bare LEDs assuming they pass the QA tests. I'll keep everyone in the loop as I hear more :)

As for the 2811 it should work with the TM1809 or TM1803 timings and Daniel's fastspi library just fine on the Arduino.

[Andrew Morrow]

I'm happy driving them with a fast PIC, please DO keep us informed! I'd buy the heck out of those!

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Patrick Cantwell <pcan...@insomnia.org> wrote:

These strips are going to be 60 LEDs/m - addressable with the 2811 chip built in. Manufacturer also agreed to sell me bare LEDs assuming they pass the QA tests. I'll keep everyone in the loop as I hear more :)

As for the 2811 it should work with the TM1809 or TM1803 timings and Daniel's fastspi library just fine on the Arduino.

[Robert Atkins]

On Friday, September 7, 2012 3:24:51 PM UTC-7, Daniel Garcia wrote:

On Sep 7, 2012, at 3:06 PM, Robert Atkins <snikta...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yikes. It's interesting though, from the arduino.cc forum thread that came up this seems to be the way of the future. If I could get flat pre-wired pixels (like the Bliptronics ones) it would solve a whole lot of my problems.

Can you shoot link to that thread?  Curious to read more about what they're doing.

http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?topic=81486.0

What I meant was, integrated LED and driver chip in one surface mount package seems to be the way of the future.

Cheers, Robert.

[Patrick Cantwell]

Good news!

I should be getting my hands on LEDs with integrated WS2811 drivers within the next week or so!

Better news - I can beat the bliptronics pricing pretty significantly on these LEDs.

I'll be adding them to my site (insomnialighting.com) soon, for those interested in making a purchase..

-Patrick

[Andrew Morrow]

I just ordered 90 meters, myself. (not at blip prices!)  I'll update the group with my results.

[Patrick Cantwell]

Ah, I was referring to the bare LEDs :) I should have them in stock shortly for anyone interested in them..

[Andrew Morrow]

That's fantastic.  I'll surely be buying some from you.  

In my case, I'm looking to chop them up for projects since they have the decoupling caps still attached.  That said,  do you have a schematic of your leds?   Mostly I'd like to see if the pinout on one side is + D - or +-D

If the latter, I (we) can just solder the caps right on to the LED.

oh AND!   When you get them in, if you could check to see if these, like many 5050 package leds, can have the legs pulled out from the package.  That would likely help a lot of folks who want to sew these into clothes!

[Patrick Cantwell]

Yup, I'll get all the details together over the coming days! I'm expecting at least a sketch or engineering drawing of some sort from the engineers at the factory by tomorrow, and I'm placing a sample order for 500 LEDs today to see what these end up looking like when I get them.

Will keep everyone informed!

[Andrew Morrow]

sounds great.
One of the great things about the DycoLEDs is that they have the decoupling cap built in, so you can make big matrices without having to plan for those.   In this case, I'd probably just end up making a double sided board with the caps on the back (just a pain to do SMD on both sides!)

[Patrick Cantwell]

Ah, interesting! I never thought of that. Of course the downside is they only do like 32k colors, right? :-)

As an aside, you said you drive ws2811 with a pic? Do you code it in assembly? I mostly use CCS C with my PICs but don't know that I'd be able to get the timing needed in C for these even at 40mhz. The WS2811 is new to me.. I have a string of the 12mm pixels on my desk that I'm going to try to get going tonight. Any help would be appreciated :)

[Andrew Morrow]

I'm not positive what I'll drive them with.  I'm TOLD that people have been able to drive them with the Arduino using the FASTSPI library, but I'm still not sure how that would work.

Once I get some in my hands, I'll probably develop a DMX compatible controller for them.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Patrick Cantwell <pcan...@insomnia.org> wrote:

Ah, interesting! I never thought of that. Of course the downside is they only do like 32k colors, right? :-)

As an aside, you said you drive ws2811 with a pic? Do you code it in assembly? I mostly use CCS C with my PICs but don't know that I'd be able to get the timing needed in C for these even at 40mhz. The WS2811 is new to me.. I have a string of the 12mm pixels on my desk that I'm going to try to get going tonight. Any help would be appreciated :)

[Patrick Cantwell]

Ah, gotcha!

I'm going to be suicidal and try and get my string of '2811 pixels going with a PIC in C tonight. I have 40mhz and 64mhz parts on my desk so we'll see if I can make it happen.

I've long feared the '2811. Time to confront that head-on :-)

[Andrew Morrow]

Good luck!  I have a metric crapload of them coming in about a week, so hopefully we'll all see success.

[Robert Atkins]

On Tuesday, September 11, 2012 7:26:14 AM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:

I just ordered 90 meters, myself. (not at blip prices!)  I'll update the group with my results.

90m of which (link)? Is this through our friend Ray on Alibaba? What's he selling 'em for per meter?

Cheers, Robert.

[Patrick Cantwell]

I've got the WS2811 IC working with the string of pixels I grabbed off of eBay. It's not pretty, but I've got some code up on the product page if anyone uses PIC, cares about CCS C, or feels like trying to use it on an Arduino. There's some work remaining, as you'll see in the code & comments.

I also have the engineering drawing of the incoming SMD5050 LEDs w/integrated WS2811 IC.

All available for your viewing pleasure at http://www.insomnialighting.com/products/rgbsmdws2811.html

[Andrew Morrow]

Ray does have these, though I got them from a different supplier who does shipping deals for me.  

Andrew

--

[Patrick Cantwell]

hi all!

Just a quick update, I have these individual LEDs with WS2811 ICs in and tested. Wow, these are BRIGHT.

Also, the legs can be carefully pried up from the back of the package (I think Andrew was asking)?

Posting some photos on my tech documentation page now..

Thanks!

-Patrick

[Andrew Morrow]

Great!
I've tested my huge strips, and have found that an Arduino can ABSOLUTELY drive them.  EASILY.  Just use the FASTSPI library and select TM1809 and that's IT.  No timing changes or anything.

Now, the way it works DOES impact communications.  You wouldn't be able to drive a string live via serial commands, but I've found that ethernet DOES work.   I've set up an artnet node and it works just fine.  I was able to control 1046 leds at 30hz with no problems using only a 16mhz arduino.  That's just freaky, and opens up huge doors for massive matrices CHEAP. 

Love em!

[Robert Atkins]

On Wednesday, September 19, 2012 7:38:55 PM UTC-7, Patrick Cantwell wrote:

Just a quick update, I have these individual LEDs with WS2811 ICs in and tested. Wow, these are BRIGHT.

Something I've been thinking of: is it possible to run these at less than the nominal 5V (like, say, 3.3V) and have them still light, but less bright? Wikipedia tells me the voltage drop across a blue LED is between 2.48V and 3.7V so theoretically it could work if the chips can cope with 3.3V signalling. Or does it just Not Work That Way?

Cheers, Robert.

[Andrew Morrow]

The ws2811 is stated to require 5V.   Operation below that might be erratic, since we're talking about pretty fast shifting.

Cheers, Robert.

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[Anton Kast]

My personal experience: 3.7V works fine for power so long as there is 5V of signal to the WS211.

Anton

[Patrick Cantwell]

Robert - are you trying to tone them down or run on lower voltage?

I didn't get a chance, but to dim them it should be a matter of lowering the values clocked in. Instead of 255,0,0 for full red 127,0,0 should be less bright. And 63,0,0 even less so.

If you're looking for battery power (eg: from lipo) I can try that on the bench tonight or tomorrow..

[Phil Spitler]

So glad to find this group on the Noisebridge email list today.

The projects that you guys have linked to are great and very inspiring.

I have done a few LED installations but only with non addressable 5050 strips.

I recently bought an addressable strip from Adafruit but have yet to play with it.

http://adafruit.com/products/306

Here are a couple of links to my LED projects.

http://www.philspitler.com/circuitdancers/

http://www.zero1biennial.org/victoria-heilweil-phil-spitler

I look forward to reading all the geeky stuff, even if I don't understand it all.

Cheers.

Phil

Phil Spitler  |  Creative Technologist   |  Bonfire Labs  |  t : 415.394.8200  m : 415.571.3139

Website | Facebook | LinkedIn

[Robert Atkins]

On Thursday, September 20, 2012 2:06:03 PM UTC-7, Patrick Cantwell wrote:

Robert - are you trying to tone them down or run on lower voltage?

Well, if they're that bright to start with I'd like to run them on lower power to save battery because yeah, I have a portable application in mind. Doing that "digitally" will work, obviously, but it kinda kills your dynamic range. Maybe that's not such an issue if the chips do full 24-bit colour in the first place.

Cheers, Robert.

[Daniel Garcia]

Oh excellent - i'll add a definition for WS2811 and map it to the TM1809.  This is great to hear.

Serial w/FastSPI is tough, esp. with the TM1809 because serial wants to use interrupts and TM1809 timing is so tight that I can't abide interrupts during it.  Interesting that ethernet works - i wonder if the ethernet shield has its own buffer, letting you handle data on your own time?  That'd be good to know if it does!

I wonder how zigbee stuff falls into this.

Are you using a mega?  1046 leds is 3138 bytes of RGB data, which is more memory than the some of the arduinos have.  (I've had to shift to using a mega so that I can get a whopping 8k of ram :)

Of course, my memory pressures tend to be higher because I like working in HSV which is another 3 bytes per led (unless I want to do on the fly translation from hsv to rgb - which I may flip to, but sometimes it's useful to be able to work on a pixel multiple times in HSV before pushing it out to rgb).

--Dg

[Andrew Morrow]

For my first tests, I've just been using an Uno.  I'll end up pushing it on to a mega or 644 (I have like 200 644's sitting in my workship) and try again.

I'm also going to talk to Paul and see if the Teensy would be a good fit in HID communication mode.   Might be cool?  No idea what the chip impact would be compared to serial, though.

[Phil Spitler]

What kind of price are you getting the strips for?

Sounds great.

Phil

Phil Spitler  |  Creative Technologist   |  Bonfire Labs  |  t : 415.394.8200  m : 415.571.3139

Website | Facebook | LinkedIn

[Phil Spitler]

So glad to find this group on the Noisebridge email list today.

The projects that you guys have linked to are great and very inspiring.

I have done a few LED installations but only with non addressable 5050 strips.

I recently bought an addressable strip from Adafruit but have yet to play with it.

http://adafruit.com/products/306

Here are a couple of links to my LED projects.

http://www.philspitler.com/circuitdancers/

http://www.zero1biennial.org/victoria-heilweil-phil-spitler

I look forward to reading all the geeky stuff, even if I don't understand it all.

Cheers.

[Andrew Morrow]

$9 per meter in 10 meter chunks. 

[Daniel Garcia]

On Sep 21, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Andrew Morrow <amo...@gmail.com> wrote:

For my first tests, I've just been using an Uno.  I'll end up pushing it on to a mega or 644 (I have like 200 644's sitting in my workship) and try again.
I'm also going to talk to Paul and see if the Teensy would be a good fit in HID communication mode.   Might be cool?  No idea what the chip impact would be compared to serial, though.

I'm curious about the Teensy, apparently there's a problem with my library on it though, I haven't had a chance to grab a teensy and figure out what's up with it.

How much ram is on the 644?

--Dg

[Andrew Morrow]

When using ws2811 based units, FASTSPI just needs to change the pin definitions.  I've got a modified version of it at home.   When using the ws2811, it seems to be borked.   I can't tell what's going on, but I'm getting no activity on the pin.  

The thing is that with other strips, FASTSPI uses... SPI, but for the TM1809 /WS2811 it is basically bitbanging, so you need to set an output pin.  No matter where I set it, I get no love.    I've only spent like 10 minutes on it, but will work more on it when my next 20 meters come in.  Probably next week.

Andrew

[Robert Atkins]

On Friday, September 21, 2012 3:20:30 PM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:

$9 per meter in 10 meter chunks.  

Yowzers, that's cheap. Can you post a photo of the strips? Who's your supplier?

Cheers, Robert. 

[Andrew Morrow]

They're identical to, though not sourced from:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/4m-WS2811-LED-digital-strip-60leds-m-with-60pcs-WS2811-built-in-tthe-5050-smd-rgb/633124138.html

I just get them right from the factory.  If you don't mind putting in an order of $5000 or more, you can do the same! :)

Cheers, Robert. 

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[Andrew Morrow]

sorry - realized I never replied on the 644.  The 644 has 64k of ram.

WAY more exciting is this:
http://dorkbotpdx.org/blog/armatronix/led_video_wall
I simply must get this working with a variety of driver chips.  Huge possibilities here!  I've bought lots of Teensys, but have never bought a ++.   Ordered one today!

[Patrick Cantwell]

Wow. That thing is awesome. I'd imagine it would truly rock with the 60 LED/meter WS2811 strips or the 52 LED/meter LPD8806 strips.

Sadly I don't really have any USE for a project like that.. 

[Andrew Morrow]

I've spoken to Paul at PJRC, and he's interested in helping.  He's heavily involved with the Teensy 3 launch, but in a month or so, he's going to look into it.  

Andrew

[Tekket]

Ive got two Teensy 3.0 on their way, and a few 2.0s around I use for a few things.    They work great with the LPD8806 strips and hardware SPI.   I havent tried the FastSPI though (thats next).

The 2.0 powered 5M without issue but ram was a problem for complicated effects, such as the advanced LED belt code.

The LPD8806 strips are 21bit colors. Still plenty.

I bought a few reels at retail ($30/m) of the 32led/m strips.. but then I got the same ones for much less

$13.5/m for 32leds/m

or $18 for 52leds/m  

exactly the same strips as far as I can tell. And thats not in bulk either, I ordered just two reels to verify first.  They arrived in 2 days.

[Phil Spitler]

Can you send me a link to the store where you got the strips. 

Cheers. 

Phil

Phil Spitler |  Creative Technologist  |  Bonfire  Labs  |  t : 415.394.8200  |  c : 415.571.3139  |  Bonfirelabs.com

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[Tekket]

www.gree-leds.com

Cant say nothing but good things.  Search the arduino.cc  forum for others who have had good reviews as well.

They just updated their 52/m strips to be easier to cut sections.  Before there was just a single solder point on the divide, while the 32/m has solder points on either side.  Hoping to get a new pic today.