Bank Of North Dakota

[Geoff. Waterhouse]

Hello All

You may remember my writing about the Bank of North Dakota some time ago, well I had heard nothing about them until today when the item that I am sending arrived in my e mail box. You may or may not recall that I told you about the movie, "Northern Lights," that was made about the doings in North Dakota that led to the establishment of the BND. It is old, 30+ years, in black and white and not the best quality, but it tells the story and it is something that I would love to see happen in New Zealand.

North Dakota is an amazing place, not where I personally would choose to live I must say, but it is a HUGE state with a SMALL population and probably one of the WORST climates in America. I suppose 2 out of 3 ain't bad, but after 9 years of 40 below zero and snow from Hallowe'en until Easter, it is not not of my "where to live list!" Thing is, if they can do it there, why can't we here. You will see in the comments section that Oregon is supposedly working on a similar project and the BND is helping them. I had some communication with BND, which was how i got a copy of the movie, I wonder if I were to put them in touch with the NAtLabACTUnitedFutureGreenMaoriMana Party, the party would have any interest in learning more. What y'all think?

Laurence, I hope you don't think this is political and I do like your idea of a new list. Can you set it up? I am sure you are much more computer savvy then I am

Kind regards

Geoff

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[the mandrake mechanism]

A bank to make Mickey Savage proud.

[Geoff. Waterhouse]

Please forgive my ignorance, but who is/was Mickey Savage
Regards

Geoff

---

From: the mandrake mechanism <hydrox...@yahoo.com>
To: le...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Geoff. Waterhouse <paihiara...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Sunday, 4 September 2011 2:33 PM
Subject: [LE] Re: Bank Of North Dakota

A bank to make Mickey Savage proud. --
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[Donna Mummery]

Michael Savage was the first Labour Prime Minister and one who had a
shrewd grasp on monetary issues. It was his administration that built
the State Houses on credit from the Reserve Bank. It was this use of
public credit that helped NZ out of the Depression, so much so that
Britain was borrowing from NZ after WWII. You had better improve your
knowledge of Michael Savage if you are interested in monetary reform
in NZ.

[the mandrake mechanism]

Michael Joseph Savage ( 1872–1940 - Trade unionist, socialist, politician,)  was Prime Minister of New Zealand with the first Labour Government - Labour came to power at the 1935 election with 55 of the 80 seats in Parliament.

 

. In the midst of The Great Depression, they NATIONALISED the Reserve Bank, buying out all the shareholders, and then proceeded to set up the STATE ADVANCES CORPORATION, advancing loans  at very small interest rates to stimulate infrastructure, business development & Stae Housing. He also engineered the Welfare State - The Social Security Bill provided for a universal free health system covering general practitioners, public and mental hospitals, and maternity care; a means-tested old-age pension of 30 shillings a week for men and women at age 60; and a universal superannuation payment at age 65.

 

Nationalising the Reserve Bank I believe was instrumental in getting New Zealand moving, out of the Depression, but I have no idea how (after his death, and National's return to power) the Reserve bank returned to Crown Ownership, or rather, i don't know the details.

 

It's a wonderful example of a good man's crusade working within the political system and what can be acheived.

[Geoff. Waterhouse]

Thanks Donna. I am a relative newcomer to New Zealand, can't even apply for citizenship until December

Regards

Geoff

---

From: Donna Mummery <dmumm...@gmail.com>
To: le...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 4 September 2011 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [LE] Re: Bank Of North Dakota

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[Geoff. Waterhouse]

Thank you for this, it is appreciated. Pity we can't have another Michael Savage

Kind regards

Geoff

---

From: the mandrake mechanism <hydrox...@yahoo.com>
To: le...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Geoff. Waterhouse <paihiara...@yahoo.com>

Sent: Sunday, 4 September 2011 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [LE] Re: Bank Of North Dakota

[Alistair Munro]

Isn’t  nationalization the same as  putting into “Crown Ownership” or am I missing something ?

 

Alistair   Munro

 

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[Donna Mummery]

Dear Geoff,
If you would like a short review of Michael Joseph Savage's work on
monetary reform, you can get a copy of the latest Guardian magazine
printed by the NZ Political Party, Democrats for Social Credit. In it
Harry Smith wrote an article on Savage's contribution to social credit
principles during the Depression.

Yes, it must take a miracle to get an elected official to understand
and implement public credit. It has happened down through history in
rare instances where enough people saw through commercial credit and
their elected officials had enough courage to stand up to the
commercial banks.
Donna

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[Lowell Manning]

And if you want to get a feel for the times, try reading "Simple on a
Soapbox" by Robert A Lee. (you might have to order a copy through
your local library).
Lee was the man behind the NZ public housing program in the 1930's.

Best

Lowell

> +unsub...@googlegroups.com.

[Lowell Manning]

Whoops,

I think I might have got my American general mixed up with my Labour politician:  It's John A Lee of course

And if you want to get a feel for the times, try reading "Simple on a Soapbox" by Robert   John A Lee.  (you might have to order a copy through your local library).

Lee was the man behind the NZ public housing program in the 1930's.

Best

Lowell

On 5/09/2011, at 1:36 PM, Donna Mummery wrote:

[the mandrake mechanism]

there can be a difference-as stated here on another topic-the Reserve Bank of NZ is supposedly Government owned with we the People as the shareholders. However, as has already been pointed out, New Zealanders have NO stake in the RBNZ- the Crown (British) is actually the Owner. The NZ government acts ON BEHLAF OF the british Crown, but not necesserily on behalf of Kiwis. Nationalising the bank woulf take the ownership off the Crown (British) and give it to the people of NZ, and the Government could then do as it sees fit, in regard to creating CREDIT. 

[the mandrake mechanism]

apols about the spelling there, in a bit of a hurry !

[Deirdre Kent]

What evidence do you have to support your statement that the Crown (British) is actually the owner of RBNZ? I am curious.

On 5 September 2011 19:51, the mandrake mechanism <hydrox...@yahoo.com> wrote:

there can be a difference-as stated here on another topic-the Reserve Bank of NZ is supposedly Government owned with we the People as the shareholders. However, as has already been pointed out, New Zealanders have NO stake in the RBNZ- the Crown (British) is actually the Owner. The NZ government acts ON BEHLAF OF the british Crown, but not necesserily on behalf of Kiwis. Nationalising the bank woulf take the ownership off the Crown (British) and give it to the people of NZ, and the Government could then do as it sees fit, in regard to creating CREDIT. 

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[Alistair Munro]

I fear  the author  (name  ? the mandrake  mechanism  ?) of the  statement below has  thoroughly  confused the issue.

 

 “The  Crown” in respect of  New Zealand  has nothing to do  with  the  British   Government or  the  British Monarch but  refers  effectively  to the   New  Zealand   “State”  with its   particular  constitution. This has been the  case ever since  those Acts of the NZ and British Parliaments  which   effectively  and together established the  legal sovereignty and independence  of  New  Zealand.  For  example , Iwi negotiate and  settle with the  Crown (New  Zealand ) over Treaty issues  not  with any organ  of the British  governmental/constitutional  set-up.

 

So  back to the original  question regarding the   history  of  the   NZ Reserve Bank and the supposed need to  “Nationalize”    it – refer  to the posting  Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:18 PM :

 

Can any one else   establish  any   meaningful distinction between “Nationalization “  of the Reserve  Bank and  “State Ownership “ of the Reserve Bank ?  Surely they’re effectively the  same thing ?  OR am I still missing something ?

 

 

Alistair  Munro

 

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[Zack Domike]

The definition of the Crown in NZ is unexplored territory to me, as a recent immigrant.

I looked into this a bit and found Wkipedia "RBNZ" in part:

Ownership

Unlike the United States Federal Reserve, the Reserve Bank does not have elements of private ownership; according to its website, "The Reserve Bank does not have shareholders. It is 100% 'owned' by the New Zealand Government, with any extra revenue that the Reserve Bank makes going back into the Crown accounts. The Central Bank is not a government department, but is a body corporate whose finances are included in the Crown accounts."

As for the history of the RBNZ, it was formed the year BEFORE "Michael Joseph Savage" became the first Labour prime, when that was a Socialist party.  From my understanding, the "reserve bank" changed roles, and this is also from WIKIpedia:

Like all modern monetary systems, the monetary system in New Zealand is based on fiat and fractional-reserve banking. In a fractional-reserve banking system, the largest portion of money created is not created by the Reserve Bank itself, 80% or more is created by private sector commercial banks.^[1]

Can anybody in the group synthesize these threads?  What am I missing - 20% of new NZ money is loaned-into-existence by the Reserve Bank itself?

Cheers!

Zack

ૐ  Zack Domike 
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texts:  021-168-4618

"Corporations, like casinos, are driven by short-term profit, not the long-term health of their customers. This isn’t just about greed; it’s enshrined in law."  Kumi Naidoo 2011.

[the mandrake mechanism]

Hi Deirdre: I was reading about this the other day actually,, but i may be muddled on the point  ..on the Monetry Policy page of the OURNZ website it is states:-

> "The Reserve Bank does not have shareholders. It is 100% "owned" by New Zealand Government, with any extra revenue that the Reserve Bank makes going back into the Crown accounts. The Reserve Bank is not a government department, but is a body corporate whose finances are included in the Crown accounts"

This statement is totally misleading. Fact: the RBNZ is a private, foreign-controlled economic instrument that holds New Zealand and its people to ransom through fraudulent and corrupt banking practices. The sole beneficiaries of the RBNZ are in fact foreign-owned private banking and financial institutions, better known to you all as the "Crown"<

The foreign ownership of the Reserve bank of NZ must be 'The Crown' but, which Crown? Does the NZ government have access to 'The Crown Accounts'?

 

http://ournz.org.nz/policies/monetary-system/

[the mandrake mechanism]

also, from the OURNZ website:-

 

New Zealand's Constitutional Crisis:

 

> e. New Zealand is in a constitutional crisis as a result. Our sovereignty or independence from the United Kingdom is unclear. If New Zealand became independent from the United Kingdom in 1947 (via various Acts of Parliament), why did it need to do so again in 1986? And if New Zealand Parliament is indeed sovereign, why is it Her Majesty the Queen can take direct control of New Zealand's Armed Forces at any time, according to the Defence Act 1990? All political leaders are ducking for cover. Both the Attorney General and the Prime Minister have evaded providing New Zealand People with any answers. <

 

http://ournz.org.nz/policies/new-zealand-constitution/

[Deirdre Kent]

Just had to go to my book Healthy Money Healthy Planet and talk to Malcolm to get the answer. There was a conservative government in 1934 and the first action of the new Labour Government led by Micky Savage in 1935 was to nationalise the RBNZ. Public ads put out by the Associated Banks of NZ during the election warned of dire consequences of nationalising the Reserve Bank.

The first NZ bank notes were printed in 1934.

As for the 80% that is a very old figure and Wikipedia should be changed. 98% of new money was created by private banks at interest when I did my research for my book which was published in 2005.

[Lowell Manning]

No Al, you're not missing anything.

The confusion rests with the "arms length" wording of the Reserve Bank Act.   

RBNZ is "independent", but the government can always amend the Policy Targets Agreement it has with RBNZ, and the Minister can always direct the Bank outside of the PTA as long as the Minister (and hence the government) takes clear responsibility for doing so.

That's my understanding anyway.

So the RBNZ is a government entity set up to operate under the fiction of "independence".   Only those directly involved from time to time know how "independent" it really is.  My gut feeling is that the government by and large is happy to stand aside leaving the RBNZ governor and board to carry as much of the can as possible for lousy economic management. Just another nose cleaning operation really.

Cheers

Lowell Manning

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[Alistair Munro]

Thanks  Lowell -  so  the Reserve bank never  “returned to Crown Ownership”  after having been nationalized, as claimed by  the mandrake  mechanism  (post Sunday, September 04, 2011 8:18 PM);   and  simply “ re-nationalizing”    it   is  neither   possible nor  would make any difference.

 

 

Alistair

 

 

 

---

[Lowell Manning]

Yes but..

You only have to look at the Whitlam government in Australia to know what happens when the British Crown tries to use its reserve powers.

Lowell Manning

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[Lowell Manning]

Yes, I think that pretty much sums it up.    The "Crown" is barely a constitutional nicety in the person of Lieutenant General Sir Jerry Mateparae, bless his soul. 

L

[Lisa Er]

Hi

Re  “The Reserve Bank does not have shareholders. It is 100% “owned” by the New Zealand Government, with any extra revenue that the Reserve Bank makes going back into the Crown accounts. The Reserve Bank is not a government department, but is a body corporate whose finances are included in the Crown accounts.”   This is a quote off the web when one googles Who owns the Reserve Bank of New Zealand? Does it have shareholders?

I googled it, and that was my answer – not from OUR NZ. It must have been where Kelvyn Alp got the info.

I also found this on Wikipedia

The monarchy of New Zealand – also referred to as The Crown in Right of New Zealand, Her Majesty in Right of New Zealand, or The Queen in Right of New Zealand – is the constitutional system of government in which a hereditary monarch is the sovereign and head of state of the Realm of New Zealand,^[1][2] forming the core of the country's Westminster-style parliamentary democracy. The Crown is thus the foundation of the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the New Zealand government.^[3]

SO it seems that the Commonwealth (note meaning of the word) is the key here if we go back far enough. The Queen is the head of the Commonwealth obviously. The Royals are subservient to the banking system however because at the end of the Napoleonic ward 1815, Rothchild bought up the British stock exchange when the shares plunged. So therefore The Rothchild / banks own England (and according to many youtube videos, the US and Australia etc) – and I guess that would then include us – Reserve Bank and all.

This is a bit simplistic but I think over all it is correct. I see lots of other post have arrived while I have been writing this,  which I have yet to read. I don’t believe we are as far removed from the Commonwealth as we would like to think, however.

If we look at the Treaty of Waitangi and the 1835 agreements, as many Maori are doing at present, there are big issues here – and ‘The Crown’ as an entity is controlling. And who do the MPs swear allegiance to?

Cheers

Lisa

 

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[Deirdre Kent]

Sorry but if OURNZ says "Fact: the RBNZ is a private, foreign-controlled economic instrument" they are simply wrong. It might be influenced heavily by Wall Street, but is owned by the people of NZ. Things on the web can be wrong. Kelvyn Alp should do his research better. When we had a NZ Banking Reform group in Wellington we went into all this and sorry to say, just because it is influenced by Wall street and the Fed is privately owned it doesn't mean our RBNZ is.

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[Alistair Munro]

Thanks.

 

However,    to say that there  remain certain vestigial  unclarities  in the fine  details of NZ constitutional theory and   history is  VERY  different from justifiably asserting   that ownership  of the  NZ Reserve  Bank  somehow reverted to the control of the   British Crown,  which is what  the “The  mandrake mechanism “ writer appears  be  saying  in the posts of    Sun 9/4/2011 8:18 PM and Mon 9/5/2011 7:52 PM taken together . (“Nationalising the bank woulf take the ownership off the Crown (British) and give it to the people of NZ, and the Government could then do as it sees fit, in regard to creating CREDIT.”)  

 

 

I don’t see  any acknowledgement   of  that from  “the  mandrake mechanism” as yet but hope that we are not going to perpetuate that incorrect  notion  here.

 

What  prevents the  Reserve Bank of NZ   from  issuing  credit  directly, if it is so limited,  is NOT  the supposed fact that the  Bank is controlled by   the British Crown, is not owned  by  the  NZ  State (“Crown “) ,   or that it needs to be  Nationalised    – that is the only point  I wish to make  and will now close  my contribution to this thread.

 

Alistair  Munro

 

 

From: le-nz@googlegroups.com [mailto:le-nz@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of the mandrake mechanism

Sent: Monday, September 05, 2011 10:02 PM
To: le-nz@googlegroups.com

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[Lisa Er]

“there  remain certain vestigial  unclarities  in the fine  details of NZ constitutional theory”

 

That’s what I am saying - though not nearly so succinctly!

However, I think it should be made clear.

J

 

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[the mandrake mechanism]

I'd just like to say a huge 'sorry' to the group for my lack of understanding on the ownership of the Reserve Bank. I completely misunderstood what I'd read on the OURNZ website on the matter, and, what with the FFT policy they have looking dodgy as well, it would seem that OURNZ has some way to go yet, before they could be called a viable alternative to the mainstream party choices. As for Savage's Nationalisation of the Bank back in 1935, it appears at that point, there was indeed a part private ownership,which was why the bank was nationalised.

 

I'm new to the group and very much a beginner, exploring  what we might call 'money mechanics' My user name comes from the name given by G. Edward Griffin, to the creation of bank credit (debit) by private banks, in particular the userping of the Fed, in his book 'Creature From Jekyl Island"

 

In future, I'll try to contribute more accurately !! Big thanx to Helen dew for allowing me into the group.

[Lowell Manning]

I love your Yahoo name! 

I really appreciate people who listen and learn and have a sense of humour.   The words "I'm sorry" are missing in most of the world today  Thank you for using then so openly.   

If you have read the "Creature from Jekyl Island"  and understand what happened in the lead up to the 1913 FED Act I'm sure you have a great deal to contribute to the  LE group and it will be our turn to listen to you.

I am very happy to share what little I have to share.  My  email is man...@kapiti.co.nz

Kind regards,

Lowell Manning

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[Lowell Manning]

A little note of caution to LE members though on my post below - I should have added it before pressing the send button.

My reference to the "Creature of Jekyl Island" and G.Edward Griffin in no way indicates my support in any shape or form for  Griffin's politics and beliefs.  But the book does offer insights into the secretive process that created the FED. List members interested in history  may also choose to to access congressional records from the time that are freely available on the web.

Lowell

[Laurence Boomert]

Dear Mr / Ms Mandrake - dont sweat it - the forum is working in the goal of discussing and learning - no less with the help of your input

Cheers

Laurence moderator

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From: the mandrake mechanism <hydrox...@yahoo.com>
To: le...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, 6 September 2011 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: [LE] Re: Bank Of North Dakota

I'd just like to say a huge 'sorry' to the group for my lack of understanding on the ownership of the Reserve Bank. I completely misunderstood what I'd read on the OURNZ website on the matter, and, what with the FFT policy they have looking dodgy as well, it would seem that OURNZ has some way to go yet, before they could be called a viable alternative to the mainstream party choices. As for Savage's Nationalisation of the Bank back in 1935, it appears at that point, there was indeed a part private ownership,which was why the bank was nationalised.

 

I'm new to the group and very much a beginner, exploring  what we might call 'money mechanics' My user name comes from the name given by G. Edward Griffin, to the creation of bank credit (debit) by private banks, in particular the userping of the Fed, in his book 'Creature From Jekyl Island"

 

In future, I'll try to contribute more accurately !! Big thanx to Helen dew for allowing me into the group.

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[the mandrake mechanism]

I havn't actually read the book, but, I have seen a summary of its contents, and references to it are abundant in the original ZEITGEIST movie, which has sparked the Zeitgeist Movement (led by Peter Joseph). when he coined the term 'the mandrake mechanism' i thought it was pretty apt! A conjouring trick with currency!

 

Just a little more from Wiki on Mickey Savage's first Labour government:-

 

>

Economic

• Government spending was increased in an effort to stimulate the economy.
• The Finance Act (1936) required the reversal of all cuts made in wages and salaries during the Depression period^[6].
• The State Advances Corporation was set up in 1936 to provide cheap, long-term, urban and rural financing on first mortgages. It was also provided with the powers to lend to local authorities for the construction of workers’ housing and to make advances for developing existing industries and for setting up new ones^[3].
• The Reserve Bank of New Zealand was immediately nationalised, transferring control from private bankers to the Minister of Finance.
• The Reserve Bank Amendment Act (1936) bought out the Bank’s private shareholding of £500,000^[3].
• The Bank of New Zealand was nationalised (1945) ^[14].
• A State Advances Corporation Act was set up which stimulated house-building and provided cheap loans to farmers.
• A Bureau of industry was established (1936) to plan new industries and reorganise existing ones by a system of licensing^[15]. <

Very recently, John Key was asked about New Zealanders "socialist leanings' and he more or less brushed it off lightly, but as we see, we have a history steeped in Socialism. I think it would be true to say that those who remember the tough times of the Great Depression and WW2, hold Michael Joseph Savage in very high regard -something of a hero.

 

It's time for some new heroes.