Grape vines in Permaculture

[Anita VanSickle]

Hi All,

I've read that a permaculture practice is to grow your grape vines up your apple or pear trees using them as support as opposed to a trellis.  Anyone ever tried this? It seems attractive to me in some respects but I'm a little concerned that the tree could become overwhelmed or the grapes wouldn't get enough sun.

Any comments are appreciated. I have a small fairly traditional orchard that I would like to move more toward permaculture practices.

Thanks,

Anita

[Leigh Ann Fulkerson]

Anita,

As a viticulture student, I would not recommend doing that. The grapes would definitely not get enough sun. Plus, if you want any fruit, they need to grow laterally. ‎The trunk needs to grow vertically but the shoots will need lateral support. 

Leigh Ann Fulkerson 

From: Anita VanSickle Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 8:00 AM To: kpc...@googlegroups.com Reply To: kpc...@googlegroups.com Subject: [KPC-Dev] Grape vines in Permaculture

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[Anita VanSickle]

Thanks Leigh, that makes sense. 

[Sharyn]

Hi Leigh and Anita, 

I also wondered the same thing and asked other permaculture people last month.  I got the same answer.  Thanks for asking, and thanks for answering.  There are so many opinions out there, it is nice to have validation.

Sharyn

Sent from my iPad

[Bill]

While I do not disagree with the earlier statements, I would offer the following. Grapes have been winding there vines around things for a long time. Way before the man made trellis. As a Permie we are tasked to explore growing in non traditional ways. If you have space for a few trees but not a few trellises, do you not grow grapes? There are several videos out there about folks successfully growing grapes in trees. I'm going to grow currents on trellis, unheard of around here. It's research and advancement in permaculture. Besides, it might be fun.

Bill

Greenman Farm

Sent from my iPhone

[Leigh Ann Fulkerson]

While it may be "possible" to grow grapes on trees, I was basing my statement on actually producing a quantity and quality of fruit sufficient to make quality win‎e. I suppose if you just want some unpredictable amount of reasonably edible "table grapes," and depending on the type of tree and soil profile, you could grow them on a variety of natural supports. 

Leigh Ann Fulkerson 

From: Bill Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 6:02 PM

To: kpc...@googlegroups.com Reply To: kpc...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [KPC-Dev] Grape vines in Permaculture

[Steve Mann]

Trees have been used as support for grape vines for thousands of years in Europe.

"In southern Europe, mixed vineyards incorporated trees as mechanical support for the grapevines, with the added bonus of diversified economic return."  The History of Temperate Agroforestry  J. Smith 2010 pg 6. 

  The Romans grew grapes with  various species of trees.see attached paper.

Mark Shepard in Wisconsin uses fruit and nut trees as support for his grapes. see Restoration Agriculture.P 95-96

When I get around to grapes I will plant next to my apples.

Steve Mann

 

In Service to Life and Justice

[Steve Mann]

Romans said the best wine came from the grapes grown highest in the trees.

see the Lelle and gold paper I previously sent.

Steve Mann

[Steve Potratz]

So it appears from reading this that there is a classic permaculture approach to “productivity”.  In the classic three sisters of corn beans and squash, the corn is not as productive, the beans are not as productive and the squash is not as productive as they would be alone.  However the three combined have higher total productivity than that same space used by only one.    If I read this thread correctly, the trellised grape is more productive, and the apple tree may be more productive without a grapevine, but the combined apple and grape production may be more productive use of the “Space” from a big picture standpoint.

 

Is that an accurate way to see this?

 

Steve 

[Steve Mann]

You got it Steve  in Forest Ecology its called  niche diversity, which can lead to overyielding.if our design works. 3000 years of growing grapes in trees leads me to believe that  it can work with good design and management..  

Steve

[Sharyn]

I trust y'all are talking about standard size trees.  I am reforesting many acres.  I planned to use a mix of standard, semi and dwarf trees during the transition.  I was only able to find semi and dwarf that are organically grown as well as untreated with neonics.  I believe you could plant grapes and use the branches for support, but you would need to wait for the tree to be well established and possibly prop the branches.  When grapes are full and ready for harvest they are quite heavy.

Sharyn

Sent from my iPad

[Linda Hezel]

I would use trees to trellis grapes to feed mammals, birds and pollinators. But to produce grapes in quantity for food I need a wire trellis that I can cover to protect the grapes from many mammals (raccoon, opossum, skunk, deer & even fox), Japanese beetles and birds. 

Linda Hezel 

Prairie Birthday Farm 

Sent from my iPhone

[Carol Barta]

And remember to trellis them higher than your dogs can reach.  Grapes are very toxic to dogs.

Carol Barta, Manhattan, KS

"If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading." - Lao Tzu 

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From: kpc...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [KPC-Dev] Grape vines in Permaculture

Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2016 10:40:36 -0600
To: kpc...@googlegroups.com

[Anita VanSickle]

Thanks for all the good info. 

I would have never thought about grapes being toxic to dogs either.

[Steve Moring]

Steve,

I think you have the right idea, although if we look at it as a plant super guild and balance the plant community with a mix of other supporting species including nitrogen fixing species and deep rooted dynamic mineral accumulators, productivity is maximized for the plant community.  If all species provide some economic benefit then it is a win win scenario.

Steve Moring